opinions wanted on subwoofers

[_Scotty_]

I predict that the earth will move. 😁

[P.I.]

I predict that the earth will move. 😁

Indeed.

Until one hears a true, full range system they haven't lived! 

[Nick B]

I predict that the earth will move. 😁

Indeed.

Until one hears a true, full range system they haven't lived! 

August 14 delivery.....
https://giphy.com/gifs/looneytunes-scared-bored-2uwZ4xi75JhxZYeyQB

[orchardaudio]

The Starkrimson Ultra amp is a BTL or bridge tied load amplifier. Here are some links to explanations
of this type of amplifier design from simple to complex.
https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/glossary/bridge-tied_load.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridged_and_paralleled_amplifiers

https://www.eeeguide.com/bridge-tied-load-amplifier/

I am not an engineer.
Scotty

I contacted Leo at Orchard Audio and he recommended looking at the REL website for specifics on how to connect REL subs to Class D amps. Here's the link and what I copied from their website. He says his customers have done this with good results....

https://rel.net/blog/2017-12-27/how-to/connect-rel-class-d-gear/

"BLOG
Connecting Your REL Class-D: A Step-by-Step Guide for Optimal Sound

ToneAudio Product of the Year: 212SE
With so many new RELs finding homes this time of year, and many first-time owners running AV receivers which are increasingly migrating to Class D, we thought this was a perfect time to guide new owners through how to properly connect their new REL to a Class D amp or receiver.

Hot Tip:
If you pick up the receiver and it simply feels incredibly light compared to the boat anchor receiver you used to own, it's likely a Class D. Of course, you should still verify this with the manual or by contacting the manufacturer.

One of REL's great advantages over conventional subwoofers is our filter architecture and the precise way that we connect High Level. But different amplifier types require slightly different methods for connecting our High Level cable. We'll be looking at Class D amps and how best to connect your REL to this style of amplifier. Don't know if your amp or receiver is Class D? First, call the manufacturer and ask, explain why you are asking. We have had good results with almost every manufacturer except a certain Japanese manufacturer whose 4-letter name begins with S and ends with Y. Over 2 hours on repeat phone calls left us as frustrated as you will surely be with that experience.

The Problem:
So, why does a Class D amp require a different connection than a traditional Class A/B amp? There is something done to the ground plane that is unique in our experience. See, ground should be exactly what it sounds like—a return path of energy back into Mother Earth. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction and for every outflow of electrical energy, there must be a proper, full return of that energy back to earth.

Here's where Class D amps get weird (not all, but about 90% exhibit the anomaly I will describe next). The Black speaker terminals on the rear of your amp traditionally, and by electrical convention, mean Earth Ground. Zero ohms, zero Hz. Ground. But with most Class D amps, that Black-colored speaker terminal* is no longer ground. Worse, it actually references to a positive voltage that is significant. We consistently measure 10-15 volts ABOVE ground. In practical terms, if your REL were mistakenly connected to a Class D amp or receiver the input of the REL would eventually be burned out because it would be pulling 15 volts through a circuit designed to see zero voltage. Over some period of time—months or a few years, this unwelcome voltage will burn out the front end of your REL.

The Solution:
Fortunately, the solution turns out to be both easy and inexpensive—potentially no cost difference at all if your system is theater-based.

On the REL High Level cable go ahead and connect up the Red (R+) and the Yellow (L+) leads as usual. "Float" the Black wire (do not connect it to anything), in fact, snip off the portion that is pre-stripped and wrap it in electrical tape to avoid accidental shorting out later on.
Next, connect a long RCA-RCA interconnect from either an unused input on a preamp or receiver to the REL's .1/LFE input. Do this even if you have no interest in theater, you are creating an audio ground, nothing more. This is true for 2-channel systems, we are not using the .1 LFE input for anything more than to produce ground.
If you are running this in a theater system, you're done; run your usual .1/LFE cable and float the black wire and you're done.
*One final call out, NAD recently introduced two new integrated amplifiers. We would like to commend them for specifically choosing Blue for their "Non-Hot" speaker terminal. Rather than Red/Black, the Red/Blue scheme gets people wondering why the color is different.

Along with our friends at Peachtree Audio, the NAD folks also added an old-fashioned knurled chassis ground bolt which makes it even easier than we described to obtain true ground on this style of amp. We salute these customer-centric companies.

In the case of a chassis ground bolt like this, please DO connect the Black wire to this bolt. "


I will be contacting Joe Rodgers at RSL for his comments.

Nick

The REL manual also gives you directions on how to connect differential output amplifiers.  You can see that here:
https://rel.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/REL_Tx_Manual_12-20_11_WEB.pdf

My Starkrimson amps have differential outputs.

[Nick B]

The Starkrimson Ultra amp is a BTL or bridge tied load amplifier. Here are some links to explanations
of this type of amplifier design from simple to complex.
https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/glossary/bridge-tied_load.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridged_and_paralleled_amplifiers

https://www.eeeguide.com/bridge-tied-load-amplifier/

I am not an engineer.
Scotty

I contacted Leo at Orchard Audio and he recommended looking at the REL website for specifics on how to connect REL subs to Class D amps. Here's the link and what I copied from their website. He says his customers have done this with good results....

https://rel.net/blog/2017-12-27/how-to/connect-rel-class-d-gear/

"BLOG
Connecting Your REL Class-D: A Step-by-Step Guide for Optimal Sound

ToneAudio Product of the Year: 212SE
With so many new RELs finding homes this time of year, and many first-time owners running AV receivers which are increasingly migrating to Class D, we thought this was a perfect time to guide new owners through how to properly connect their new REL to a Class D amp or receiver.

Hot Tip:
If you pick up the receiver and it simply feels incredibly light compared to the boat anchor receiver you used to own, it's likely a Class D. Of course, you should still verify this with the manual or by contacting the manufacturer.

One of REL's great advantages over conventional subwoofers is our filter architecture and the precise way that we connect High Level. But different amplifier types require slightly different methods for connecting our High Level cable. We'll be looking at Class D amps and how best to connect your REL to this style of amplifier. Don't know if your amp or receiver is Class D? First, call the manufacturer and ask, explain why you are asking. We have had good results with almost every manufacturer except a certain Japanese manufacturer whose 4-letter name begins with S and ends with Y. Over 2 hours on repeat phone calls left us as frustrated as you will surely be with that experience.

The Problem:
So, why does a Class D amp require a different connection than a traditional Class A/B amp? There is something done to the ground plane that is unique in our experience. See, ground should be exactly what it sounds like—a return path of energy back into Mother Earth. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction and for every outflow of electrical energy, there must be a proper, full return of that energy back to earth.

Here's where Class D amps get weird (not all, but about 90% exhibit the anomaly I will describe next). The Black speaker terminals on the rear of your amp traditionally, and by electrical convention, mean Earth Ground. Zero ohms, zero Hz. Ground. But with most Class D amps, that Black-colored speaker terminal* is no longer ground. Worse, it actually references to a positive voltage that is significant. We consistently measure 10-15 volts ABOVE ground. In practical terms, if your REL were mistakenly connected to a Class D amp or receiver the input of the REL would eventually be burned out because it would be pulling 15 volts through a circuit designed to see zero voltage. Over some period of time—months or a few years, this unwelcome voltage will burn out the front end of your REL.

The Solution:
Fortunately, the solution turns out to be both easy and inexpensive—potentially no cost difference at all if your system is theater-based.

On the REL High Level cable go ahead and connect up the Red (R+) and the Yellow (L+) leads as usual. "Float" the Black wire (do not connect it to anything), in fact, snip off the portion that is pre-stripped and wrap it in electrical tape to avoid accidental shorting out later on.
Next, connect a long RCA-RCA interconnect from either an unused input on a preamp or receiver to the REL's .1/LFE input. Do this even if you have no interest in theater, you are creating an audio ground, nothing more. This is true for 2-channel systems, we are not using the .1 LFE input for anything more than to produce ground.
If you are running this in a theater system, you're done; run your usual .1/LFE cable and float the black wire and you're done.
*One final call out, NAD recently introduced two new integrated amplifiers. We would like to commend them for specifically choosing Blue for their "Non-Hot" speaker terminal. Rather than Red/Black, the Red/Blue scheme gets people wondering why the color is different.

Along with our friends at Peachtree Audio, the NAD folks also added an old-fashioned knurled chassis ground bolt which makes it even easier than we described to obtain true ground on this style of amp. We salute these customer-centric companies.

In the case of a chassis ground bolt like this, please DO connect the Black wire to this bolt. "


I will be contacting Joe Rodgers at RSL for his comments.

Nick

The REL manual also gives you directions on how to connect differential output amplifiers.  You can see that here:
https://rel.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/REL_Tx_Manual_12-20_11_WEB.pdf

My Starkrimson amps have differential outputs.

Thank you, Leo. I looked at a number of subs, but finally decided on the entry level L12 servos from Rythmik which are line only. I will keep the REL information for future sub purchases.

Nick
PS   am quite enjoying your Starkrimson Ultra!

[GDHAL]

I like options 

Seriously, Nick. Best of luck with them. I checked the manufacturer website and ASR measurements. You've got your ears full, in a good way. 

[Nick B]

I like options 

Seriously, Nick. Best of luck with them. I checked the manufacturer website and ASR measurements. You've got your ears full, in a good way. 

Thanks, Hal. I had enough options within the price and performance parameters to make a good, entry level, first time subwoofer choice. I will also be able to satisfy my curiousity about servo subs. It just took a while to get through the process.

As to integration with my JMR speakers, I'm told that will take time and patience. One variable that I won't need to consider is placement as both subs can only fit between the rack and speakers.

[mresseguie]

Nick,

I've been silent recently cuz I've been pretty busy. Anyway, I suspect you will enjoy your L12 subs. I bought one for my son's and daughter-in-law's little audio system a couple years ago. It worked well in their room and sounded pretty good to my ears. I've owned an F12G for several years, and am very pleased with it.

Enjoy!

Michael

[Nick B]

Nick,

I've been silent recently cuz I've been pretty busy. Anyway, I suspect you will enjoy your L12 subs. I bought one for my son's and daughter-in-law's little audio system a couple years ago. It worked well in their room and sounded pretty good to my ears. I've owned an F12G for several years, and am very pleased with it.

Enjoy!

Michael

Thanks Michael. Busy is good, but hopefully you are not too overloaded and stressed. The F12G looks nice...a bit larger, heavier and more expensive than my L12. About 10 days till they're here. Interconnects and in-line filters coming as well. I assume your son has his audio hobby/appreciation under control, yes??

Nick

[mresseguie]

Nick,

Neither my son nor his wife shares our passion for pouring $$$$ into audio gear, so they're unlikely to spend any money in that pursuit. They're planning for baby number one sometime next year (no pregnancy announcement yet), and a new larger vehicle may be added before too much longer. Our son still drives our old '03 4-cylinder Accord. It's getting old, but it's still in good condition and is much cheaper than buying a new SUV.

Looking forward to your impressions.

Michael

[Nick B]

Nick,

Neither my son nor his wife shares our passion for pouring $$$$ into audio gear, so they're unlikely to spend any money in that pursuit. They're planning for baby number one sometime next year (no pregnancy announcement yet), and a new larger vehicle may be added before too much longer. Our son still drives our old '03 4-cylinder Accord. It's getting old, but it's still in good condition and is much cheaper than buying a new SUV.

Looking forward to your impressions.

Michael

Michael,

It's good your son and daughter in law enjoy music, but have not gone "off the deep end" like some of us...🙄😀 
In spite of the 💰💰💰 I've spent over the years, I love music and audio and will give you my impressions soon

Nick

[Nick B]

I've had the subwoofers for about 10 days. Never could find any spare ICs in the garage, so I bought the WBC Gotham subwoofer cables on Amazon and hooked up the subs this afternoon. Those WBC cables are a very good bargain. How nice to also have multiple pre outs. Thanks Supratek!

Everything from Rythmik is first class with this pair of L12 servo subs. Great packaging, very nice fit and finish and pricing on their entry level subs. Easy to understand instructions and a nice diagram.

I don't yet have the custom inline filters yet, so my JMR Voce Grandes are playing full range and the subs are set at 40Hz. It sounds nice already and am appreciating a better midrange. I'm going to play a lot of music and let things settle and not make any adjustments. As this is my first venture into subs, I'll just appreciate the learning experience.

[P.I.]

I've had the subwoofers for about 10 days. Never could find any spare ICs in the garage, so I bought the WBC Gotham subwoofer cables on Amazon and hooked up the subs this afternoon. Those WBC cables are a very good bargain. How nice to also have multiple pre outs. Thanks Supratek!

Everything from Rythmik is first class with this pair of L12 servo subs. Great packaging, very nice fit and finish and pricing on their entry level subs. Easy to understand instructions and a nice diagram.

I don't yet have the custom inline filters yet, so my JMR Voce Grandes are playing full range and the subs are set at 40Hz. It sounds nice already and am appreciating a better midrange. I'm going to play a lot of music and let things settle and not make any adjustments. As this is my first venture into subs, I'll just appreciate the learning experience.

This will get better. 👍🏼

[Nick B]

I've had the subwoofers for about 10 days. Never could find any spare ICs in the garage, so I bought the WBC Gotham subwoofer cables on Amazon and hooked up the subs this afternoon. Those WBC cables are a very good bargain. How nice to also have multiple pre outs. Thanks Supratek!

Everything from Rythmik is first class with this pair of L12 servo subs. Great packaging, very nice fit and finish and pricing on their entry level subs. Easy to understand instructions and a nice diagram.

I don't yet have the custom inline filters yet, so my JMR Voce Grandes are playing full range and the subs are set at 40Hz. It sounds nice already and am appreciating a better midrange. I'm going to play a lot of music and let things settle and not make any adjustments. As this is my first venture into subs, I'll just appreciate the learning experience.

This will get better. 👍🏼

 

[_Scotty_]

Nick, have you tried out the Parametric Equalizer in the MUSE suite to roll off the lows
in the JMR Voce Grandes yet. Inquiring minds want to know.
Scotty