i have the white grover s interconnect that was new aug. '07. how does this compare to the current grover interconnect and is it worth the $100 + shipping both ways to get the upgrade?
Quote from: mboldda1 on June 28, 2008, 01:44:35 PM
i have the white grover s interconnect that was new aug. '07. how does this compare to the current grover interconnect and is it worth the $100 + shipping both ways to get the upgrade?
I would recommend that you trade messages with Grover. He may allow you to trial the new ICs and keep the old white version or keep the new cables and return the white version. You would be out the shipping but you would convinced that you are running the best Grover IC in your system.
I am in the process of upgrading from the graphite version of the "S" cable to the latest "SC" version. Several people here made the switch from the graphites to the new SC version and believe the SC version is quite a value in ICs. Grover told me the list on a 1 meter pair of his SCs is $420.00.
Good Luck on your decision.
Ken
I'm currently breaking in a pair of Grover 'SC' RCA analog ICs to replace my final 'S' pair (which were the gray ones that came after the white). While I no longer have the whites to compare it to, I definitely think the latest black 'SC' ICs are a step up from the 'S'.... While sonic differences are not dramatic, it seems to be a step toward more clarity and transparency without edginess.
FWIW, here's what I'm currently using...
Grover SC digital RCA IC - Squeezebox to Tact
Grover SC digital XLR IC - CD transport to Tact
Grover SC analog XLR ICs - Tact to amp
Grover SC analog RCA ICs - phono pre to Tact
I think the 'SC' version of IC is the best Grover makes overall. It would work well in all systems and seems the most invisible.
-C
I strongly agree with Carlman that Grover's 'SC' version of IC is the best Grover makes overall.
I have had Grover 'SC' ICs on all signal path in my 2-channel/multichannel system since they came out.
These have a blacker background/lower noise floor than the white/white Grover S interconnects
(which I also rate very highly and have retained full system complement of as backups for the Grover 'SC' cables).
Thanks to Audio Nervosa posters, I was alerted to "leap-frog" the graphite/charcoal Grover S version which seemed to have some "harshness "/ "glare"/ "grain" issues in some folks' systems.
rlmacklin
Quote from: Bigfish8 on June 28, 2008, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: mboldda1 on June 28, 2008, 01:44:35 PM
i have the white grover s interconnect that was new aug. '07. how does this compare to the current grover interconnect and is it worth the $100 + shipping both ways to get the upgrade?
Several people here made the switch from the graphites to the new SC version and believe the SC version is quite a value in ICs.
Good Luck on your decision.
Ken
I was one of those who changed over and am very pleased. TO me they sound better in every aspect. Since making the change, I have had zero interest in IC upgrading. Best of luck with your decision making.
Quote from: djbnh on July 07, 2008, 02:57:07 AM
I was one of those who changed over and am very pleased. TO me they sound better in every aspect. Since making the change, I have had zero interest in IC upgrading. Best of luck with your decision making.
Here's a thought for a new thread.... What has AudioNervosa done for me
Since learning about and hearing Grover ICs here on AN, I also have no interest in trying anything else. The same is true for John's Black Sand power cords. I'm extremely happy in both of those camps due to what I've learned (and tried) here. Thanks to all who have made it happen!
Grover is working on new stuff, I hope to get a listen soon. If it is evolutionary to the degree we've grown accustomed, perhaps another group buy would be in order. I know that Grover's wires hold their value very well in the used market. With his new higher prices, we group buyers should be looking at profits on the old ones if we were to sell to make room for the new.
Well, that sounds intriguing.... do you mean ICs after the SCs or something other than ICs?
ICs I think, but new SCs (speaker cable) too. Hoping to hear what's new sometime soon. We'll have a G2G then.
The SC IC is the latest version of IC.. Does he have an 'SC' SC? If so, is going to come out with an 'IC' version of SC?
I like that the versions have slowed down.. the added confusion of the version naming is a nice twist.
;)
Leave it to Grover to keep us scratching our heads. But yes, I agree with Carl that it's nice that the latest incarnation of his ICs, the Grover 'SC', is the best I've heard and haven't seen any changes in that in awhile.
So has anyone actually listened to any Grover speaker cables? Should be interesting...
We had a pair of Grover S biwire speaker cables at a G2G last springtime. It came in second overall to JPS Superconductor 3 in a field of about 8 wires. The Grover was only about 2/3 burned in according to Grover's recommendation and diffference to JPS was not huge. Not bad for about 1/8 price at the time. The SC version is more expensive but I've not yet had the pleasure.
Rich, sorry I missed that G2G. I'll ping Grover to see if he's actually shipping his new speaker cables... I'd love to see a group buy on that. I've currently got a very long set of JPS SC+ biwire speaker cables and have been contemplating replacing them with shorter cables but the JPS SC3 are just out of my price range - particularly given that I'll still need at least a 15 ft run.
As far as I know the latest production spec is still the SC, which I think are available in SCs too. But I have never heard those. I think jrebman recently got some of grover's latest 'SC' SCs, but not sure if he has listened to them yet. Jim has a lot of exciting system changes going on this year!
Rich
Today I got back home after spending a few days on vacation and found my new Grover SC ICs in the mailbox. I am upgrading from the Graphite Edition I purchased during the AN Group Buy last year. The new ICs are black and marked Grover SC.
Ken
Ken,
Does your have a direction arrow? At one time Grover was placing such under the label but my recent pair did not have it. I'm assuming that if they are directional, it is in the same direction as the writing.
Quote from: mdconnelly on July 09, 2008, 05:04:15 PM
Ken,
Does your have a direction arrow? At one time Grover was placing such under the label but my recent pair did not have it. I'm assuming that if they are directional, it is in the same direction as the writing.
Mike:
No arrow, they just have a black band with "Grover Sc" written in white cursive letters.
I just went and looked at the Graphite "Grover S" cables and the arrow points across the top of the signature in the same direction as the signature is written (I hope this makes sense). Anyway, I plan to connect the new cables exactly as the Graphite edition.
Ken
Guy's, sorry for asking but why are you all so worried about arrows and which way you are hooking ic's up?
You can run them anyway you like.....directionality in conductors is a mute point. If somebody can show me how wire used in this application can be directional, I'm all ears.
I have been reading Bruce Rosenblat's book "Audio Reality" (transcendentsound.com) which suggests rather candidly (and convincingly) that because audio signals are AC, there is no directionality to the signal as there might be in a DC conductor (no physics to suggest that either,) and therefore no "directionality" to audio cables. It is just a dogmatized myth, one among many, according to Rosenblat. Nevertheless, my cables are marked with direction and I blindly and dutifully orient them as suggested by the arrows. It is more fun that way, and I am a good little lamb. hehe The book is very provocative and inspiring. I recommend it and will review it when I'm done.
Rich
PS. I see John beat me to the punch line :rofl:
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on July 09, 2008, 08:18:48 PM
Guy's, sorry for asking but why are you all so worried about arrows and which way you are hooking ic's up?
John, not worried -- just curious about changes from Grover. I doubt I've ever heard much of a difference in changing a new cable's direction, but certainly have heard break-in improvements. I suspect that if I reverse the direction of a cable after it's been broken in, it will change sonically until broken in again. Just a guess on my part - doubt I'll test that theory, but if it's true, it may be that some manufacturers label direction because they already run it in to some extent before shipping. And, of course, if you buy them used, it'd be nice to know what direction they had been used.
Rich, thanks for the reference on Rosenblat's book.... gotta check that out.
I note that Groneberg of Germany subscribes to directionality to their cables. Within the Groneberg website is a diagram and the company's preferred way of running the ICs to/from the preamp; I note that as I'm away from my home 'puter at this time, I can't forward the site/diagram link.
YMMV.
Here is it:
http://www.groneberg.com/english/kunserv/Direction.jpg
Quote from: djbnh on July 10, 2008, 08:00:02 AM
I note that Groneberg of Germany subscribes to directionality to their cables. Within the Groneberg website is a diagram and the company's preferred way of running the ICs to/from the preamp; I note that as I'm away from my home 'puter at this time, I can't forward the site/diagram link.
YMMV.
Which is exactly why I would probably never buy from them.....but that picture really doesn't say much. It implies a little, but makes no statement. Are they trying to show a true balanced connection?
You can slice it up anyway you like and call it whatever but at the end of the day, conductors used in the application of ic's, speaker wire and yes even power cords are non directional.
Quote from: mdconnelly on July 10, 2008, 05:18:46 AM
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on July 09, 2008, 08:18:48 PM
Guy's, sorry for asking but why are you all so worried about arrows and which way you are hooking ic's up?
I suspect that if I reverse the direction of a cable after it's been broken in, it will change sonically until broken in again.
I would have my doubts. If I snuck in to your house one night and switched your ic's around I would bet you anything you like that you or anybody else for that matter would NOT notice.
There is no difference.....those little 22awg conductors that most ic's are made up of could care less which way the signal travels and that is from not only a scientific standpoint but also a technical standpoint.
If they do care, maybe get one of those funky watches that are up for grabs on Audiogon as that should look after things (sorry couldn't resist!). :rofl:
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on July 10, 2008, 09:14:22 AM
I would have my doubts. If I snuck in to your house one night and switched your ic's around I would bet you anything you like that you or anybody else for that matter would NOT notice.
You're right, John - I probably wouldn't be able to hear the difference enough to identify it as such. But, there are certainly days when it doesn't sound as good and I have noticed that on those days, it seems that everything has been ever-so-slightly rearranged (ya know, like all the Black Sand cables have been dusted and straigtened). :rofl:
Quote from: mdconnelly on July 10, 2008, 01:07:37 PM
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on July 10, 2008, 09:14:22 AM
I would have my doubts. If I snuck in to your house one night and switched your ic's around I would bet you anything you like that you or anybody else for that matter would NOT notice.
You're right, John - I probably wouldn't be able to hear the difference enough to identify it as such. But, there are certainly days when it doesn't sound as good and I have noticed that on those days, it seems that everything has been ever-so-slightly rearranged (ya know, like all the Black Sand cables have been dusted and straigtened). :rofl:
Now that brought a smile to my face and a chuckle,,You just can't have enough of those Black Sand cables,,just my .02 worth.And,I might add,, if I don't have at least one BS Violet in the mix(especially to the preamp)I feel lost. Great product BTW.
Man I love this place! :D
The fact that I can say my piece and then somebody comes along and says their piece and it stays civil. God dam that is refreshing!
Now all of you, piss off and go dust some power cords! :rofl:
i was under the impression that interconnects that are truly directional are the ones that have their shield connected on one end and not the other.
Quote from: mboldda1 on July 10, 2008, 03:37:17 PM
i was under the impression that interconnects that are truly directional are the ones that have their shield connected on one end and not the other.
That would still not make them directional, it's simply addressing any potential ground loop issues.
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on July 10, 2008, 09:14:22 AM
Quote from: mdconnelly on July 10, 2008, 05:18:46 AM
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on July 09, 2008, 08:18:48 PM
Guy's, sorry for asking but why are you all so worried about arrows and which way you are hooking ic's up?
I suspect that if I reverse the direction of a cable after it's been broken in, it will change sonically until broken in again.
I would have my doubts. If I snuck in to your house one night and switched your ic's around I would bet you anything you like that you or anybody else for that matter would NOT notice.
There is no difference.....those little 22awg conductors that most ic's are made up of could care less which way the signal travels and that is from not only a scientific standpoint but also a technical standpoint.
If they do care, maybe get one of those funky watches that are up for grabs on Audiogon as that should look after things (sorry couldn't resist!). :rofl:
John:
Do you also believe that cables do not go through sound changes as they go from being brand new to having two to three hundred hours of playing time on them?
Ken
Quote
John:
Do you also believe that cables do not go through sound changes as they go from being brand new to having two to three hundred hours of playing time on them?
Ken
Ken, sorry but what does this have to do with directional or non directional cables? This is a completely different subject all together.
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on July 10, 2008, 07:55:43 PM
Quote
John:
Do you also believe that cables do not go through sound changes as they go from being brand new to having two to three hundred hours of playing time on them?
Ken
Ken, sorry but what does this have to do with directional or non directional cables? This is a completely different subject all together.
No, it is a variation of the same subject!
I don't understand the logic that ICs are not intended to be directional! If a cable is not directional, according to the claims made above, then why could anyone suspect that a cable requires break-in time? Also, ever power cord I have ever seen comes supplied with some type of male and female plug. While the wire in the cord is not directional (at least before the first use) is has been constructed and it life will be spent as a directional device. The same goes with all of the wiring in your house.
Okay guys, please tell me where my train of thought is in error? Yes, I know I can reverse the direction of wiring in my house or have plugs changed from one end of a cord to another. How often is this done - not often! Also please explain to me why I hear (as well published by others) sound changes as ICs go through a use break-in period? Now given the logic that all PCs and wiring coming to your system has at least been made directional through use then why would I not expect to keep my ICs directional?
Bottom-line for me is I don't know if ICs are or are not directional (in terms of making a difference to sound) but I am going to consistently hook mine up in the same direction. Call it a belief in Audio Voodoo but most of us shell out a lot of money based on the sizzle, not the steak!
Ken
Break in of a wire is, as I currently understand it, the reorientation of molecules in conductor (inner layers more than skin) and especially insulation to allow current to pass more efficiently. They stay in the same position but flip around until the charges on their surface are most compatible with the surrounding molecules and dynamic fields. The electric field in the conductor manipulates the orientation of the molecules within the field (conductor, dielectric, metal case and even air) and the molecules respond by finding an orientation that is most "comfortable" in accordance with 1st law of motion (inertia.) Just like trash on the road eventually finds its way to the gutter through the force of passing cars, then stays there unless acted by another randomizing force like wind. Same road, same trash, different orientation, allows traffic to pass more efficiently. Another analogy would be a 4x4 beam in the road will be knocked around until it lies in the centerline pointing in the direction of traffic. It is still in the same location, just reoriented so that it can rest and avoid the passing force. Some materials will change slower than others, so break in time varies. Like teflon caps take a long time, they better resist the field, require more energy to spin the molecules around or alter their shape with a huge molecule like teflon. But this is not truth, just my version of dogma, you are encouraged to be skeptical, I have never seen this happen with my own eyes, although I have seen trash on the road :)
Mains power and musical signals are alternating current not direct current. The electric field that moves electrons oscillates through the conductor in both directions like a piston, not in one direction like a water hose. Electricity in either is always moving in two directions, each in the exact same amount. Hot and neutral conductors both oscillate in both directions, just like positive and ground in a signal wire. DC current will actually cause electron migration, but that is still just charges, not atoms or molecules moving so there is really no mode by which a preference to flow electricity in either direction can be formed.
If I made cables I would paint arrows on them too, to avoid phone calls from the people who believe direction matters bugging me to explain which direction is "right."
Rich
Interesting myth-buster opportunity here, don't ya think? Maybe at the next G2G of the Triangle Audio Society we oughta give it a try.... after all, John did offer to bet anything on this... we should take him up on it!
Quote from: mdconnelly on July 11, 2008, 10:14:13 AM
Interesting myth-buster opportunity here, don't ya think? Maybe at the next G2G of the Triangle Audio Society we oughta give it a try.... after all, John did offer to bet anything on this... we should take him up on it!
Sure.....put me on the spot! :duh
But in all honesty, I would take that bet. Listen to a system and have somebody swap the direction of the ic's or even the speaker wire without telling anybody and tell me if anybody noticed. I have done it and have yet to ever hear a change which is why I would in fact put my money where my mouth is.
As Rich pointed out, ac by nature is nothing more then electrons which go back and forth meaning that directionality of a wire is impossible. You can label them as being such but the signal that is traveling back and forth, isn't paying any attention to it!
Also, Rich's exaplanaiton is basically accurate:
QuoteBreak in of a wire is, as I currently understand it, the reorientation of molecules in conductor (inner layers more than skin) and especially insulation to allow current to pass more efficiently. They stay in the same position but flip around until the charges on their surface are most compatible with the surrounding molecules and dynamic fields. The electric field in the conductor manipulates the orientation of the molecules within the field (conductor, dielectric, metal case and even air) and the molecules respond by finding an orientation that is most "comfortable" in accordance with 1st law of motion (inertia.)
The question becomes, can you hear the above take place before, during and after?
The thing that I also find fascinating based on the above (which is true) is this. Based on the above if I take a set of ic's out of my system for any length of time, would they not be subject to "break in" or adaptation or whatever you want to call it all over again? Would the same then not hold true if I turn my system off for an extended period of time. Based on that, unless my system runs 24/7 are they ever really "broken in'?
Hah! Me thinks we have definitely drifted toward the nervosa part of this hobby. #-o
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on July 11, 2008, 11:35:45 AM
The thing that I also find fascinating based on the above (which is true) is this. Based on the above if I take a set of ic's out of my system for any length of time, would they not be subject to "break in" or adaptation or whatever you want to call it all over again? Would the same then not hold true if I turn my system off for an extended period of time. Based on that, unless my system runs 24/7 are they ever really "broken in'?
Okay guys, I can really buy into John's question above and thanks to Rich and John for the explanation about AC Current. Also, I will not put a stake into the bet against John's argument that changing direction of ICs will not be noticed - I actually believe him; however, I again believe in audio voodoo so I will keep them connected in a consistent manner! :rofl: :duh
Ken
Quote from: Bigfish8 on July 11, 2008, 02:01:13 PM
so I will keep them connected in a consistent manner! :rofl: :duh
Ken
Of course!! Me too! Why do you think they write those little arrows on there? Crazy fun hobby.