Ever heard of North American Products? Manufacturer of the infamous H-Cat preamp? They have a 100W stereo power amplifier now using the same principles. H-Cat hyperbole is overflowing, so of course I gotta check it out. I am auditioning it sometime in the next week or two at my dealer. He has Feastrex D9nf in Hedlun Horns.
http://www.h-cat.com/
http://www.stereophile.com/news/10613/
http://www.avguide.com/file-download?review=751
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1218650397&read&keyw&zzh-cat
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1059180366&read&keyw&h-cat&&st0
Rich
I can honestly say that I have never heard them but based on this:
(DF-100.2 Power Amp) 100 watts per channel / X7 Doppler Control Sysytm / $7995.00
I can safely say that I never will. $8K is a lot of coin and at that price point, there is a lot of stuff out there that I would go with first. Moscode, McCormack, Parasound HALO's and the list goes on.....
I can't believe they sell stuff at this price point and have a web-site that looks like a 10 year old made it. Based on that it's hard to take them very seriously.
I heard of them a while back on the Audiogon thread and contacted Roger Paul about a review. After a protracted e-mail exchange I decided he was too busy to provide a loaner.
The magic they're professing is soundstaging-related which isn't one of my personal hot-buttons. Of course, it could still be great stuff. The amp is certainly "up there" in pricing. I believe there is such as a thing as a "bargain $8,000 amp", as in top-of-class at that price point but it's gotta be pretty freakin' great. I would guess that most folks wanting/needing an $8k amp either have hi-eff speakers that don't need anywhere near 100 watts or monstrosities demanding much more.
The 100-watt SS segment definitely isn't sexy all by itself.
I would like 200W, but honestly that is just my dogma leaking out. I need what I need and not an erg more. How much is that? Sol's 30W integrated can play loud rap forever. Mike's RE Designs are quite stout little buggers at 75W. But both of those have well designed (nuke proof) power supplies with plenty of headroom. I guess loud orchestral passages with bass drums and their reverb are my biggest power draw. Technically 75W is enough with my easy load 90dB speakers. But headroom has a sound of its own. I am not in the 1000wpc camp, I crave extreme refinement and infinite resolution.
I already have $4500 amps, which I consider an incredible value in high power tube amps. So if there ever is another amp for me, I expect it will cost more. I have already researched and crossed out Moscode, Parasound, McIntosh, McCormack. They are refined versions of typical class AB SS. I want more for that kind of money. Spectron?, Transcendent BEAST, Pass XA 100.5, you know, something really awesome, with perfect tonal accuracy.
H-Cat concept is actively maintaining waveform velocity at several points in the circuit, which preserves tone, harmonic integrity, and of course soundstaging. The blur that messes imaging also screws up tone with the same smearing in time or space. It's like feedback without the time delay. These Usher Be tweeters and midranges are a miracle, so I want to feed my little miracles royal jelly and be utterly amazed every night. I also want to be mentally inspired by truly innovative gear as a work of art in itself. So weird stuff is always appealling, but I am also a very careful shopper.
Anyway, I am fortunate to have a local dealer with the pre and amps in stock, so I will be able to get a sense of what's all the hubbub, bub. I got my Feastrex drivers from him, nice guy. I will still need to hear them at home before any ink is shed in their name. I think there aren't very many amps built yet, < dozen maybe.
Rich
Rich:
Good luck with your search for a new amp(s). You seem to know exactly what you are looking for and I look forward to learning what you eventually settle on!
Ken
My statement on the 100 wpc isn't really that there's anything wrong with that number, rather that the perception of the number is likely to fall through some cracks in the market. If it's Really That Great, it could go the other way too, hi-eff and "regular" guys might take a flier on something bigger and smaller than they might choose otherwise.
I'm with you on the "power ratings aren't everything" thought but it is a starting place and I think folks are still more comfortable paying for watts than now-ubiquitous but unquantified current.
I have nothing against the company, I'm always pulling for the little guys in this hobby. If his wavefront velocity ideas pan out in the real world these products could be truly groundbreaking.
Well he's been at it for a long time, Golden ear award years ago but it hasn't caught on fire yet. First impression is contrary to common beliefs and marketing style is not up to the price point, but I have found that engineer types who are already busy with orders could care less about the website appearance. But comments from actual owners seem to be all positive.
My smily sarcasm may not have come through clearly Mike, I am totally tongue in cheek at this point, until I hear the dang thing. Probably would try the pre first, let the new amp run some beta time in the field, look for rev 2 in a couple years. Or maybe not :D hehe
Of course power is power, no way around that. You need what you need. But 100W is a lot of power for many speakers, would be overkill for yours! Many speaker designers just think watts are cheap, so go ahead and add another woofer, soon you have 2ohm dip and you need that 1000wpc to get a dynamic thrill. But most cheap watts sound less than truly high end.
There isn't a word written about the $8k amps anywhere, so it is all preamp coattails. I found out that the amp does not have balanced input to go with the preamp's balance output. :(
Thanks Ken for the encouragement. Lookin forward to seeing you next week!
Rich
What the H-CAT designer is referring after you wade through the marketing hyperbole about doppler distortion and wavefront timing errors is propagation delay through the feedback loop.
In any amplifier using global negative feedback where a portion of the output signal is reintroduced at the input of the amplifier 180 degrees out of phase with the input there will be a shift in phase of the error correction signal as a function of the amplfiers frequency bandwidth. In other words at some frequency in the ultra-sonic region the feedback will have shifted in phase to the point that it is now back in phase at the input of the amp and is now positive feedback, usually before this happens the amplifier will show signs of instability or oscillation. This occurs because it takes a finite amount of time for the incoming signal pass through the circuit and be amplified. Propagation delay can be minimized by having a simpler circuit designed for a very wide bandwith before feedback is applied and then limiting the bandwidth at which full gain occurs to a that which is quite a distance away from the frequency at which the feedback becomes positive. Imaging,transparency,clarity and resolution to name a few valued qualities, are all affected by feedback accuracy. Whether or not he has developed a circuit with lower propagation delay and a more accurate application of negative feedback that is superior to that of other respected designers in the field remains to be seen. Believe it or not any amplifier designer worth his salt now has to beat the performance of a $3.90/1000 chip amp, the LM3885. When properly implemented this amplifier sets a benchmark for transparency,imaging and top to bottom clarity. Maybe some formal reviews of his products would shed a little more light on their performance potential.
Scotty
That was my thought. :D
He's talking about correcting errors all the way up the chain to the microphone though. The whole concept is beyond my current understanding or my understanding of current, both of which are highly suspect.
Hi Scotty! Roger Paul says that the adjustments are made in real time, in several places in the circuit, directly at the point of measured error. It is not traditional feedback, which he specifically says and most peole agree is valuable but offers limited efficacy. There is no propagation delay in the correction circuits. You mean National LM3886 Overture? I couldn't find any 3885. Thanks.
The Wave control is not something that immediately appeals to me, but owners say that even leaving it at a rough setting for connected equipment or just zero is still excellent. Constant fine tuning every song is not something I am interested in. Along the same lines, I can hear when my amps are 1-2ma (3-7%) out of bias. I set the bias before any serious listening session. It is a pain in the ass, but easier than most tube amps. So the idea of an adjustment knob on the front doesn't bother me, as long as it is not a night and day difference with a slight adjustment, needed every damn song. From my research it doesn't seem like it is a problem. Only a home audition of a week or more will tell for sure about the ergonomics. It doesn't try to correct up to the mic, I agree that is silly. Same as when Altmann says he can correct recorded jitter burned to a CD. bullshit.
richidoo ,When I learn how to type my error rate will be lower, it is the LM3886,missed it by that much. My amp uses the stereo package LM4780. My preamp uses no global feedback only local degeneration. Being a buffer with no gain, I have of no need for a solution to a problem I don't have. I guess I could be considered a hard sell for his products. If this is more than marketing perhaps he could interest someone in using his approach in some recognized brands via a licensing agreement.
I would be interested in hearing his gear but without a financial commitment.
Scotty
Me too, ya gotta get a relaxed in-home audition to know what it's really about.
Supposedly he has/had applied for a patent. But without that nobody will/should pay for licensing, nor should he reveal his methods. From what I have heard the guts are pretty well disguised, but supposedly all discreet.
Maybe in a week or so I will have more to say from experience. Thanks for the advice and input guys!! It is always appreciated.
Rich
Rich-The amount of change the Wavefront brings will depend on how optimised both your room and power is. However,even in a perfect setting,I believe the differences are more in the subtle to noticeable range,not "night and day".
You will find that after a week,you'll have the range narrowed a fair amount to get what sound appeals to your ears.
Those potted modules can take awhile to completely break in,but a solid week of leaving it on and listening should get you a pretty good idea if it's for you.
There's apparently few amps out there,but Tbg has posted his thoughts about his new stereo unit on A'Gon in a new thread. He liked it well enough that he's selling his LSA/Exemplar Statement amp. However,he's also a big fan of Roger's work,so take that to mean what you will.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1218650397&read&keyw&zzh-cat
I find the pre to be very transparent,with no real added voice of it's own and very revealing of what's upstream. If you're looking for it to add any color or personality to your chain,it probably won't be to your liking.
Another problem is the looks dept. The P12R units are an approvement over previous models,but put one side by side to a Dodd or Supratek,and well............
A lot of people want less of a utilitarian appearance for 5K.
I hope you like it,however I sure will be looking forward to your thoughts,be they positive or negative.
Thanks Wolfman. I'm not worried about the looks, and I want to reduce added color as much as possible, so it might be OK. What really appeals to me is the talk of realistic tone in a solid state amp. If I can get rid of the tubes and still keep a natural tone I would love it. I have been emailing with Norm a little, turns out I met him at RMAF last year in the hallway, talking about Feastrex drivers. I saw his new thread about the amp. I'm hoping to hear it tomorrow or Monday. Then maybe an in home audition at some point later when I'm ready to buy.
Thanks
Rich
Auditioning HCat pre and amp tomorrow. I'm pretty excited to check it out. I'm bringing my tube electronics to compare. Also looking forward to hearing the 9" version of my 5" Feastrex drivers. Long drive to get there so I hope it's worth it. This is the only chance I have to hear the pre and amp together without buying first.
Rich
Way cool Rich, that's dedication. I hope the stuff trips your trigger and I also hope you can add it to the system without having to sell your great tube stuff. Like the vinyl guys, tube guys gotta look out for each other. :D
Well, just back from the mission. It was successful in that I heard what I went to hear, the amp and preamp are indeed very good. I could hear some of the detail and correct tone that I was looking for, and excellent soundstaging. Any more than that was impossible to ascertain through the rest of the system. Huge folded horn speakers and room acoustics were too big an obstacle to hear the finesse and magic that people are raving about. But I did get to hear them and it is positive enough to go to next step, hearing them at my home. The dealer is willing to bring them to a Triangle Audio Society G2G so I will get a proper audition, not this weekend, but maybe the next, in a couple months or so. Plus there is home trial period after purchase. We'll see if we get that far.
FYI: HCat pre and amp will be demonstrated at RMAF in the Lotus Group room, playing on Feastrex speakers. I wish I knew that yesterday :roll: Should be a big improvement over last year's exhibit, which was still pretty good.
Mike, I love my tubes, but of course they are not perfect. I am looking for that clean, low mass tube sound (or better) without the tube livability nuisances and cost. I think these might be able to deliver that. As I listened longer my brain adjusted somewhat to the distortion and I could hear some things the electronics were doing that were very nice indeed. Fast clear, powerful, lightning attack, ballsy firm bass, but as close to perfect tone on strings and vocals as I could tell. Pretty neat!
Rich
Fun, as always I look forward to future dispatches.
me too!!
Will do.
Rich-thanks for the info,I'm glad they sounded good enough for you to take the next step.
As far as RMAF,I believe Colorado dealer Steve Chang might be doing another listening session after hours with the Spectron/Sp Tech set up again. Very revealing,you might get hold of him if you're going(sorry,I can't remember if you went last year).
Good luck in your search.
Thanks wolfman, I will contact Steve. Now THAT would be a revealling audition! Also looking forward to hearing the latest Spectron amp in several demos.
I heard the HCAT preamp a few years ago. I could not hear the doppler affect, But that just may mean my ears are not as good as others
I am not sure if I heard it when I changed the setting. It was hard to hear subtle details on the dealers speakers.
Hi, I was made aware of this thread. Several things in reaction to what has been said here. First, because Joe Cohen was having problems with an AM station which changed with volume level when he was auditioning the H-Cat amp, it will not be at the RMAF. The H-Cat P12R may be in his suite. Second, the difficulty in getting a review sample is under-capitalization. Three, Doppler correction has nothing to do with feedback. Four, Steve Chang, I don't think is in the country nor will he be at the RMAF and I know has no amp. Five, the amp outshines the line stage but heavily benefits from being used with it. Six, the WTC after a long breakin of at least four weeks has one perfect setting, unfortunately it is not the same for different cds, but when it is right you have magic.
Quote from: Norm on October 04, 2008, 05:05:17 PM
because Joe Cohen was having problems with an AM station which changed with volume level when he was auditioning the H-Cat amp
RF form a poorly designed switching power supply?
Hi Norm,
Thanks for the 123456 update ;) I am not surprised H-Cat will not appear at RMAF. I feel like I'm on safari stalking the elusive beast. Can you answer some other questions?
Is the amp chassis earthed? I was told that the ground terminal of the power inlet is not connected to anything inside the amp. This deserves clarification because the consumer will assume he has a safety ground with the presence of the IEC power inlet. The choice to ground or cheat should be left with the homeowner / parent.
Warrantee is not mentioned on the website, nor is home audition policy which was recently removed from the website.
A higher priority placed on sales would bring the needed capital. Even I was thwarted, and that is quite a feat.
Rich, I have just learned that the prototype that you heard was indeed ungrounded as is mine but that further production amps will have a chassis ground. Apparently, legal issues prevail. You can, of course, use a cheater to lift it.
I don't know about the warranty . You would have to have ask the dealer. He was quick to repair a problem I had with an early P-12 line stage and seems willing to give my amp a ground, which I could do myself, of course.
I do agree that were more units out there, to dealers or among users, he would have more income. He does now have access to a production facility. I think he needs to get another current review as well as an appearance at a show.
Thanks for the quick followup response Norm! I will keep my ears peeled for a proper audition.
Rich
Rich, was that at Dennis' not proper? He said you loved the amp.
Norm, sorry to take so long to respond, my AN cookies got screwed up again, so I missed a bunch of new posts. Then RMAF delayed it further.
Quote from: Norm on October 05, 2008, 01:29:56 PM
Rich, was that at Dennis' not proper? He said you loved the amp.
Yes at Dennis' but I never said I loved the amp. I might have loved it if I could have heard it. That was not possible through his DIY single driver horn speakers and untreated room acoustic. What I could hear by listening past the severe distortion was promising, enough to make me want to hear it for real. We discussed the speaker problem in some detail during the visit and again later on the phone. I requested a home audition while it was in NC, but it was not granted. My offer to host a meet at my house was accepted, but I cancelled when I learned that the amp was not grounded. I wished I knew that (and more) before I drove for the audition.
I would love to hear the H-Cat electronics sometime in a real audition, preferably in my own home. Maybe you know another H-Cat dealer in the US with a demo system capable of revealling the H-Cat's potential?
Thanks
Rich
We had the original demoed for us at one of our Audiosyndrome meetings when they first started out. Al I can say is the preamp is about as close to a straight wire with gain. See through baby oh yeah. Wow!
Hard to find yes. They DO NOT play the audio game, one of the best kept secrets around IMO.
charles
I'm still interested in that. There are several dealers around the country, so I will check it out again later in the year, far far away.