My Snappers have a tube problem. The stock OEM power tubes are Groove Tubes E34Ls, made by JJ. It is an incredible sounding tube, no doubt the best sounding EL34 type available. It is a copy of GE el34, with some modifications inside to allow it to make 5W more power than standard el34s. I have tried SED EL34, and JJ KT77, neither are even close to the GT. The first batch when new lasted 2000+ hours without a problem. In the new batch, 4 of 8 have died a violent death within first 300 hours. B+ is 570VDC. Maybe that is a little high for EL34?
Manley has been unable to devise a way to better screen the GTs. When I consider the talent of those working on the problem, it means to me that they are not screenable - they are all bad in this latest batch. How many years will it take to chew through this batch, and will the next batch be any better? Without a visionary leader to prevent the current shitty quality why should I expect the next batch to suddenly improve? Entropy is more likely to make things even worse.
Manley is now shipping all new Snappers with 6CA7EH as OEM. I have requested permission to send in the defective batch of GT tubes in exchange for the new EHs. I hope the EH tubes sound good. But I don't hold high hopes for that. Next tube amps must be 6550/KT88. Plenty of solid tubes there.
I had just convinced myself to sit tight and enjoy the music, since the Snappers do 90% of everything I want very well. The synergy with the Minimax and Altmann is awesome. But reliability must come first. I love these amps for the incredibly intimate immediate detailed sound, so dumping them is like firing a beautiful smart sexy rich horny girlfriend because of bad breath. The great amps mean nothing if I can't trust the tubes.
Rich
Oy, that's a tough one. That dumping the girlfriend line is an all-time classic though. :D
If the first batch lasted so much longer is it possible the amp is out of spec somehow?
I have considered a problem might be with the amps, but Manley places all blame on the tubes. The amps sound incredible when working, but I guess it could still be something wrong that eats tubes. If they blow up EH tubes also then I would suspect amps out of spec. Since I'm under warrantee I'm just going along with their advice for now. If the EH tubes solve the reliability then at least I am back to 100% perfect stock condition and can sell with confidence. If they sound good, then I can keep while I continue to save for step up. I can't imagine EH tubes sounding better than SED, but it is a different tube, EH 6CA7 v SED EL34. I just don't want to shell out another $250 to self-fund a repair experiment while the amp is under warrantee.
I have a set of SED EL34s on hand so I will stick them in there. I removed them after 10 hours due to unacceptable sound quality compared to the GTs. Maybe with some more break in they will sound better.
Rich,
I use JJ E34L here and I do like them a lot. I had heard of GT having quality issues awhile back but that was with 12AX7.
I also thought the GT tubes were Chinese manufacture and not JJ. Jim McShane was having problems with GT quality and stopped selling them. I would expect Manley to carefully screen tubes but quality problems arise and maybe that is why they are going EH now. The winged"'C" SED are supposed to be a good sounding rugged tube. I was going to try those next.
Ahha! I see from GT's site they have quite a few variations of EL34 there not Chinese. You don't hear much about them.
Maybe they are more popular in music amps?
Den
Rich,
Try the new reissue Genelex KT77's, Jim McShane can match you up a quad. $200 for a matched quad is very reasonable and they sound delightful. Nothing like the ever pronounced tops of the JJ KT77's and reliability seems to very good, plus they have a deeper bottom end then the JJ's with a creamier midrange.
Thanks for the tips guys! Didn't know about the new KT77s, sounds very interesting. I will check it out.
Not sure what's going on with JJ...
Rich
Rich,
I have about 10 matched quads of the Groove Tube EL34Ls from about 5 years ago(NOS) :lol:
If you want a couple quads just let me know $80 per quad. If any go bad within the first 30 days I will replace free of charge . They graded their tubes on a number system I believe from 2-10, if you have a preferred number let me know as I probably have them.
Later,
Bill
Wow, that's great Bill!! I will definitely get some from you. I was reading about the Gold Lion last night too. You have given me some nice choices. Thanks!!!!!
Rich
Jim McShane over @ the Audio Asylum recommended SED El 34, Mullard ReIssue El 34 or Gold Lion Reissue KT77 for my soon to arrive here VTL monoblocks. It would cost alot to buy two quads of the Gold Lions but folks are saying that they sound Phenonminal. Good luck Rich....WCW III
Hey Bunky, I have 2 quads of cryoed SED el34s with <10 hours on them. You can have them for $170, half price. That's enough to get me a couple quads of those NOS GTs from Bill's stash. http://store.tubedepot.com/bsct-el34-sed.html
I'm saving up for Gold Lions but yeah they're expensive alright! 200/quad
My wife says the name sounds like rubbers. :rofl:
my consonance cyber 800's come stock with eh 6ca7eh and they are great sounding tubes.
Thanks. I have read that too, they have a good rep. I'm hoping Manley will send me some of those. If not I will buy them myself eventually.
Thanks
Rich
Quote from: richidoo on November 01, 2008, 04:58:42 PM
Hey Bunky, I have 2 quads of cryoed SED el34s with <10 hours on them. You can have them for $170, half price. That's enough to get me a couple quads of those NOS GTs from Bill's stash. http://store.tubedepot.com/bsct-el34-sed.html
I'm saving up for Gold Lions but yeah they're expensive alright! 200/quad
My wife says the name sounds like rubbers. :rofl:
Hey Rich,I strained my audio funds by decideing to snatch the VTL MB-100s from out of the blue but next week i can put some more money into my Audio kitty and i will buy the two quads of Black Sable/Winged C EL 34s from you 8) Black Sable kind of sounds like a prophylactic also :-k :rofl:
OK cool. PM your new address and I'll send em off. Thanks
Rich
Quote from: richidoo on November 02, 2008, 05:32:50 AM
OK cool. PM your new address and I'll send em off. Thanks
Rich
PM sent 8)
Manley's tech support pro and patron saint of tube lovers, Paul Fargo, helped me figure out what is happening with the Snappers and tubes. Thanks to his advice I should not be having any further problems. What a relief. Fuse ratings should be printed more clearly. ;)
I have some 6CA7s on the way from Manley. I will try them since they are now the official OEM tube. I hope they sound as good as everyone says. Thanks mboldda1! If not, I'll try a batch of Bill's old GTs, then the Genalex, and none of those are any good, then chuck the whole damn thing and go solid state. haha
Quote from: richidoo on November 04, 2008, 05:41:28 PM
Manley's tech support pro and patron saint of tube lovers, Paul Fargo, helped me figure out what is happening with the Snappers and tubes. Thanks to his advice I should not be having any further problems. What a relief. Fuse ratings should be printed more clearly. ;)
I have some 6CA7s on the way from Manley. I will try them since they are now the official OEM tube. I hope they sound as good as everyone says. Thanks mboldda1! If not, I'll try a batch of Bill's old GTs, then the Genalex, and none of those are any good, then chuck the whole damn thing and go solid state. haha
Rich:
I hope you have found the solution as I know how much you like the sound produced by the Snappers. Let us all know if this works!
Ken
In my amps I find the EH6cA7 do not sound as midrange bloomy nor is the bass a punchy as the the JJ's. However, I find the JJ's to be considerably brighter, which says something about the 6CA7's given that EH has kind of a reputation for being bright. Overall, I do think the EH's have more of a SS balance but still having some of the body of what we think of when we talk tubes.
Good luck,
Mike
Thanks Mike, that has been my experience with EH tubes also. It's funny that EH has a "house sound"... You're right about the extra happy mids, I thought that's why they called them Snappers, until I learned yesterday that they started selling them with EH EL34 until they went to shit too. It will be fun to try them. I still have enough GTs new and old to make 8, enough to compare.
It is my understanding that the 6ca7's are much better than eh's el34's. I did quite like the JJ e34l's that I had. It did take some associated gear in order to tame the upper frequencies...however that midrange is glorious. The bass kicks pretty good as well although I am not so sure it is all that well balanced.
I removed the jj's because of their very high failure rate. My amps do not have any protective circuits so when tubes fail they take some circuitry with them. As a result I feel they are not worth the risk to me as I still very much enjoy the 6ca7's.
Let us know what you think after you get some time on them.
Regards,
Mike
Sure will! Thanks so much Mike. Now you got me anticipatin'!
I am currently using Genalex Gold Lion KT77s as the power tubes in a custom DRD SEP, amp and they are the real deal as my friend, Bill O'Connell suggests. I have compared to JJ KT77, EH 6CA7, Groove Tube, SED, and TAD cyroed EL34s, and they are the best sounding.
Tybee
Thanks tybee, and welcome to AN! I sure hope to read more posts from you.
Speaking of Groove Tubes earlier.
Just found this on the enjoythemusic.com site.
"Groove Tubes, started back in the late 1970's when founder Aspen Pittman hired some technical folks to explore why tubes performed and sounded so different, is closing after nearly 30 years. Groove Tubes manufacturers products for musicians and music lovers including tubes, loudspeakers, microphones and tubes, is set to shut down operation. While many audiophiles have used their tubes, musicians such as Eddie Van Halen, Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones and Billy Gibbons from ZZ Top have relied on Groove Tubes. During the recent closure event, Groove Tubes' Aspen Pittman was signing copies of his tome "The Tube Amp Book.' "Lots of people think I'm retiring, that I sold out and am taking a hike, " said Aspen Pittman. "But not me. Tubes are more popular now than ever before, and Groove Tubes is ready to go to the next level. I just don't know that I'm ready."
Den
That's interesting, hadn't hard about that! Thanks Den. I can understand the reasoning, I still have a standing backorder for some 12AX7 from 6 months ago... Must be nightmare dealing with the factories and pissed customers.
I'm looking at tubes for the Cary 308T I just bought.
What are these people friggin crazy???? :shock:
See these prices on NOS?
Economy "shit the bed" (New England term LOL) and they are looking to get these $$$ for this stuff?
12AU7, 12AX7, EL34, EL84, I don't think so. Dealers especially.
It's EBay time.
I love it around here but the jobs suck, pay sucks and the services still cost an arm and a leg as they do every where else.
Thanks for reading.
Call me BS!
Den
A lot of companies in this industry have been increasing prices lately. With the economy it makes no sense.
Hell, Invest in Tooobs it's better than my 401K which is evaporating!
Hey, Rich, if you really, really like the original EE Mini Max branded tubes I have some here you can have.
I'll have to check exactly what I have left. That little pre is very nice. All of it is nice.
I had all EE Mini Max equipment at one time which I foolishly sold.
Den
hey rich, ever get the 6ca7's in?
marvin
I got the tubes but one mono wouldn't play after the last JJ tube failure. So I sent it in to Manley for service. Should be back soon.
Manley couldn't find anything wrong, works fine. So it's shipping back to me tomorrow. I can't wait to get it back and try the new tubes.
So what all new d'ya got? :D
Manley sent me a new set of Electro Harmonix 6CA7s since the JJs they sold me are grenading after only 300 hours. They have changed the OEM tube to the EHs. UPS tracking says the amp should be back home by Monday.
Meantime I am playing Sol Samet's newest integrated 60 watt ss amp, wow is it awesome! Unbelievable power and clarity. He just put in a new input section which opened it up a huge amount. He will tweak the output devices layout once more to dispell a touch of upper order distortion. If he can pull that off I would use this amp as reference. No boutique parts, it's all just solid engineering - old school. I will be glad to compare it to some great tube amps soon.
Sweet! When you get it perfected you can send it my way. ;)
Of course!
I finally got the naughty Snapper back from checkup. It was blowing main fuse for no good reason, but it was cured by the time it arrived at Manley for service (Thanks UPS!!) :roll: No more JJ tubes in my babies!
The new EH tubes sound fantastic. They have only about 5 hours so far, but have come alive already. I expect it to continue to improve, but already I can tell they are keepers. I am so happy about that. I did not want to chase tubes again. Now I hope they stay reliable. The bias is already rock solid. JJs never (ever) settled down.
The tubes are just as clear and 3D as the JJs, maybe will be even moreso with more burning. I think they are slightly thicker, more meaty, but I exoect that to change, not sure which way it will go. The tone is gentler, that exciting "Snappiness" is greatly relaxed which is a nice improvement. The amps had a bit of an attitude before, that was ou of character with some music that I liked, although it was perfect for rock. That attitude is mostly gone, but the speed and authority remains. Bass is a big improvement. It actually slams a little now, good impact, much better than the JJs. Rock is full and satisfying, but not overwhelming like it is sometimes fun to do. It is dry and fast and punchy, very nice. It will improve as the tubes come in, just like the JJs did, wet up and get more polished and richer.
One thing that is interesting, without the snappiness of the JJs, the music stands alone by itself in space, with less color, easier to relax and listen to music. The amps are not really in the picture as much anymore. I hope that quality improves even more.
Dynamics might be just a smidge less lightning bolt than the JJs which were unbelievable, and that was the big thing that was so dissappointing about all the other tubes I had tried. These are good enough at 90%+ of the dynamics of JJs.
So far so good!! EH 6CA7's are excellent EL-34 type tubes!
Rich
Nice to hear the amps are happy and perhaps better than ever with the new tubes. :D
It's so nice to hear things are gellin' again for you, Rich.
It's also good to hear there are some good sounding EH tubes. I haven't had much luck with them in the smaller versions.. (6922 or 12AX7) They sounded OK but nothing special. They may get a little 'snappier' with burn-in rather than settling down... will be interesting to hear either way.
Keep enjoying the tunes!
BTW, this is the first time I've heard of UPS fixing a problem with audio gear. ;)
Quote from: Carlman on December 10, 2008, 06:12:11 AM
BTW, this is the first time I've heard of UPS fixing a problem with audio gear. ;)
Yeah!! That is so funny!
I appreciate that Manley really stepped up and took responsibility for the problem. Great service there.
Now with 50 hours, they have been settling in. They were tight at first. Then they cleared up nicely, I liked that but it didn't last. Now they are a getting a touch softer, and warmer. Not as neutral as the GTs, but still 100% better than the other tubes I've tried. They make real music, and they hold bias like a rock hot or cold. There is a ton of power and great low bass. Just not as fast and clear as I got accustomed to to with the Groove Tubes.
Jim McShane recommends the Gold Lion KT77, But at $200/quad, I'm not in a rush. But he is very helpful and friendly. My new tube guy.
I wish the used gear market was healthy, I would sell these and get a Spectron from Black Sands. Still thinking about H-Cat and also curious about AKSA Soroya. Fast clear natural sounding SS amp is next. I will head up North this spring to audition the AKSA and Hcat. Paul (Occam) just had a Rave last week playing his Soroya, couldashouldawoulda. :duh But I promised myself I would never go back to NY in winter again. haha
I took out the EH 6CA7s for a while and put the GT back in. The GTs are clearer from 100Hz on up. But I recently put the EH tubes back in, and finding that with more break in and more time for my taste to adjust, they are actually very good. Not as detailed, but probably better balanced overall. The bass response is noticably better than the GT tubes. Tomorrow bmr3hc (Henry) is coming over with his MF RM9, with RAM EL34 tubes and SED 6550 tubes. We will do some tube swapping, and comparing of the various 100W tube amps. Also, stereofool lent me his VT100mk3 with SED 6550 tubes.