Whilst we bask in the light of the NEW the OLD is forgotten. So were has the class "A" gear of the rags gone ? Gee last year it was class "A" now its not even listed . HMMMM something fishy going on here. A classic is a classic now matter what.
So before one plucks down some serious cash for the new, consider the old. Not many innovative circuit designs lately or breakthrough technology [ except CD playback]. So why do we lust for the new ? Cause its new. BULLSHIT.
IMO an older system like a pair of Mirage M1si or Snells powered by a Jadis Defy 7 or a pair of Proac Response 2s powered by a Music reference amp and Audible Illusion 3A Pre , Maggies and a Bryston 4B and VAC Pre would fair quite well or better many of today's combos for A LOT LESS MULLA. There are many other synergistic combos that have been forgotton. Oh and do not forget the cables. I'll put up my Tara Decade cable against anything out there today or the older MIT stuff.
As far as front end today's gear outclasses the old. Exceptions are IMO The Theta 5A, Enlightened Audio and Sonic Frontiers. With the computer its all changing. Very very good but still not there compared to the better players IMO but for the money the difference could be deciding factor.
Ramble on men as to your thoughts.
charles
Good old stuff is still good, look at places like Audiogon, doing quite well. why not get A rated gear for pennies on the dollar, and in great shape. thanks to all you flavor of the month guys. Ill take your gear. Its the best way to build a first class system, without breaking the bank. And it still holds its value when your ready to sell again. And get the newer stuff. Keep it coming.
Greeting rollo and poloman,
You'll get no arguements from me! Used audio market been berry, berry good to me.
My current system here (http://archive.audiocircle.com/systems/index.php?systemid=859) and some of the deals I got to make it come together:
Genesis 501 w/ cabinet and XO upgrades to the 5.2 model level; $18K new, $6.2K delivered. :mrgreen:
VAC PA-160 Mk I; $5690 new $2200 shipped. :drool:
McCormack ALD-1 w/ A+ rev mods. Bought used for $600, ~$2K in mods, approaches performance level of the new VRE-1. :clap:
SME M2-9 tonearm never mounted; $1.6K new, $625 delivered. :shock:
80% of cabling purchased used also.
The SOTA Sapphire, Adcom GCD-750, and Audio Magic Stealth XXX PLC are the only items I have purchased new over the past ten years. I'll add that the equipment listed in the main rig is but the tip of the iceberg. My home theater is comprised of used gear, I have enough to put together three or four more systems, and then there's the vintage stuff.
I would not have nearly as nice a system if it weren't for the used market.
Havin' fun,
JakeJ
Hey Jake some slick buys there. Hey IMO if its good its good. BTW really what new circuits or ground breaking designs have we seen lately [ except digital] over the years. Caps and resistors have improved but NOT the circuits. Classic gear IS well classic gear. Gee those Snell A1s must sound like shit now they are so old. Or a Mac 275 just terrible hey. I'll put up my old Audio research DR250 Mk2 servo up against ANy of todays offerings in push pull triode. New $9000 used $3300. Even the AR classic 60 at $1200 cannot be beat IMO. Well just a few more examples. Don't forget the older CJs as well. The PV 10a still kicks some serious arse [ $800 used]. New is new but not always better.
charles
I don't know of anyone in hifi that 'only buys new'.. It's part of the hobby to buy and sell.. and the only way most people can audition gear. So I don't see how 'old' gear is ever forgotten...
Quote from: Carlman on October 01, 2009, 09:14:28 AM
I don't know of anyone in hifi that 'only buys new'.. It's part of the hobby to buy and sell.. and the only way most people can audition gear. So I don't see how 'old' gear is ever forgotten...
If you check out Sterophile or the other rags, it appears every year the reccomended components change because " not auditioned in a long time" BS. IMO they should compare the older recco stufff with the new BEFORE changing the list.
Its forgotten because the new is NEW must be better.
charles
OHH... you're talking about Stereophile's assumption... got it..
Yeah, they have to compare to something that still sells new or there's no reason to advertise... Because if it's not super obvious easy money, there is no reason for the CEO to make that decision... and since stockholders with only profit as a goal are running the company, how can there really be fair comparisons?
I don't know if Stereophile is a (or owned by a) public company but my guess is that they are. Once you go public, it's over for the brand in my opinion.. Caring about an idea/ideal gets lost in the transition... or at least that's what I've seen.
-C
Quote from: Carlman on October 01, 2009, 09:40:41 AM
OHH... you're talking about Stereophile's assumption... got it..
Yeah, they have to compare to something that still sells new or there's no reason to advertise... Because if it's not super obvious easy money, there is no reason for the CEO to make that decision... and since stockholders with only profit as a goal are running the company, how can there really be fair comparisons?
I don't know if Stereophile is a (or owned by a) public company but my guess is that they are. Once you go public, it's over for the brand in my opinion.. Caring about an idea/ideal gets lost in the transition... or at least that's what I've seen.
-C
Well the audio press in general one might say. Got that right. :roll: Well for me its casual reading. All reviews IMO are flawed. First of all their room is different. Second one really does not know hoe the reviwed component will work in their system. Third its subjective at best and the beat goes on. If the reviewer describes the character of the piece then and then only can we derive at any conclusion. Next Global warming.
charles
What's actually really scary about the magazines is that the reviewers themselves do not have audiophile like rooms. Most of them are severely compromized in one way or another (this from a friend who is in the business and has visited many of them). They are not as much into the room acoustics thing as many of us are. And of course they each have their little biases and preferences. It is a subjective hobby, ya know, so you have to know theyr particular flavor to accuratley understand what's being said between the lines.
Yeah, they get good stuff to listen to, and there's always more and more to hear each year, and their livelihood depends on keeping up with what's new, and they have to continually come up with something to keep readers interested, etc. The whole point of these magazines is to assist the industry to move forward and maintain sales. So there's really no surprise that they tout new stuff over old, even if it's not surprisingly different or better.
The industry does go through phases though, from tubes to SS, to peaky and overly transparent highs, to deep bass, back to tubes, to analogue, to new digital, etc. Keep it moving and keep it interesting is what they are all about.
But those of us with real wallets that we have to replenish occasionally need to sort through this marketing and decide what we want, then use the reviews as one tool to get there. It takes discipline, especially since the hobby is working against you're simply saying "I'm satisfied, so I think I'll just stop here and enjoy".
Except for Pearson I agree. No names but if the guys here saw the room of ,you know who they would run very far away. Foam under over on components. Multiple power conditioners plugged into each other. and powercords plugged into each other. Now he has 2 sets of speakers playing at one time Quads and Maggies. Heresy I tell ya heresy. :duh
charles
Do you mean Pearson or someone else? I thought Pearson had his shit together with a slave to dress wires and polish tubes and everything.
I don't believe a word of TAS except Valin and Olsher both of whom I enjoy very much. I like Fremer's speaker and electronics reviews. I have less in common with Dudley and Atkinson but they are sometimes interesting. I don't put much value in any of the rest.
Over the years you learn how to read between the lines, which when decoded does warn the reader about a piece of shit, without offending the manufacturer nurse teet. It's a sick game designed to protect the magazine, the mfg and enlightened readers who know the code, while sacrificing the helpless noobs who "want to believe." I admire reviewers that compare A to B in plain language and suffer the consequences. Only the top reviewers with clout can do that, or a magazine with no personalities attached to the reviews, like What-HiFi?
I read Bound for Sound. No advertising! Probably the last and only one left.
Stereophile I subscribe because it's cheap and entertaining and that is all it is.
I do not save them anymore.
From their recent Recommended Components List :
"There are no C and D rated components at this time". WTF?
You mean to tell me they cold not pick average components to fill those gaps?
What kind of BS is that?
No need to buy new, there is abundant great used equipment out there.
Oh one more thing. I'm actually sick of some of these people's opinions on these boards.
No names mentioned but not here.
I'm getting tired of all the F*&^# BS that is spent in print over the years.
Den
Hey den that was a good one. Here you will find posters that sincerely want to help from their life experiences in this Nervosa. We all have our views but do not piss on each other.
May the Nervosa be with you. In a nice way. :beer:
charles
Yup, some people are just rabid about this stuff in annoying ways.
I read some of this stuff elsewhere and just say WTF?
Then I leave till the next day to see what other shit was added. :roll:
Ya all know who and where I'm talkin'.
Den
Quote from: bacobits on October 02, 2009, 04:00:21 PM
Oh one more thing. I'm actually sick of some of these people's opinions on these boards.
No names mentioned but not here.
word 8)
A comment about Bound For Sound. Marten is not immune from the consequences of his actions. If he tells the truth about a component in an unflattering way he will not receive any more components from the manufacturer who feels offended by his candor. By extension other manufacturers who see a competitors product panned will also be reluctant to submit their babies to be reviewed. Ideally someone who was independently wealthy could buy anything that might be of interest to an audiophile and comment on it in an intelligent manner. I also take exception to the way Michael Fremer reviews phono cartridges.
I am so old I can remember when Anthony H. Cordsman used to write for Stereophile and when he reviewed phono cartridges the frequency response,channel separation,channel balance,resonant frequency in a typical tonearm of the
period and the THD of the cartridge was measured. Nowadays what we see is a review of a stupidly expensive phono cartridge with no measurements whatsoever and only Michaels word that the the thing is any good at all. The aforementioned measurements actually determine what the cartridge will sound like when placed into service
in your system. If his reviews are to be relevant to the reader as an aid to making a buying decision this information is vitally necessary. If his writing is only supposed to be entertaining, then the lack of this information doesn't matter. I suppose it depends on what you wish to accomplish with your review.
Scotty
Marty on occasion has stated too that he will sometimes give the manufacturer a
chance to fix the criticism or completely scrap the review and not publish it.
D
Quote from: _Scotty_ on October 02, 2009, 07:16:10 PM
A comment about Bound For Sound. Marten is not immune from the consequences of his actions. If he tells the truth about a component in an unflattering way he will not receive any more components from the manufacturer who feels offended by his candor. By extension other manufacturers who see a competitors product panned will also be reluctant to submit their babies to be reviewed. Ideally someone who was independently wealthy could buy anything that might be of interest to an audiophile and comment on it in an intelligent manner.
That's one reason AudioNervosa is here! We're audiophiles freely offering our opinions about what we actually hear, nothing more, nothing less. We've built a nice community and we are getting better ideas of what each other likes/dislikes.. so we can actually use our findings to make some 'educated guesses' of what will work for each other.
It's sad that a manufacturer would be so shallow to think that 1 unfavorable review means a permanent business impact... and they can't figure out a way to make something positive come from it... Very uncreative of them.
-C
Over my roughly 40 years around audio the goals seem to have changed. Bass has gotten tighter and leaner. Overall the sound has gotten much more analytical (versus musical) and so more fatiguing.
Of course there has been improvements in material sciences and innovations in solid state, digital, and computer audio. We have discovered the importance of wire (interconnects/speaker cables/etc.).
Audio memory is fleeting, so some justification for Stereophile dropping old stuff. And obviously their reviews and recommendations fuel their magazine.
And love vintage stuff as we might, materials decay in time, so we may never be able to accurately reproduce the sound we loved years ago.
(Hi, my first post here.)
Unless you're fortunate enough to be in the "MNO" (Money's No Object) category (and I can assure you that I'm not) I can't see how anyone can participate in this hobby of ours and NOT delve into used/classic gear for at least part of one's system. Inevitably, everyone has different tastes in equipment, music, etc... but I can't see anyone arguing over having a better system for less money by buying used.
Other than my CD player & TT, all of my other equipment piece by piece has been bought USED. If you have a good general knowledge of what you're looking at and know the average re-sale prices for it, you can get a lotta "bang for the buck" going used. If you buy "right" dollar-wise, it will allow you enough room to afford the occasional repair/referb on a piece and still come out ahead.
One of the only major benefits that I can see (hear) to buying new (depending on where you shop) is having the luxury of 30 day in-home "auditions" on gear from some retailers and/or catalog companies. Being able to listen to a new piece of gear in your own system and determine whether you like it enough or not to keep it is a big plus. Then again, you have to keep in mind that introducing any brand new, in-the-box piece of equipment into a system will lead to another topic of discussion worthy of it's own thread, which is break-in time. :?:
Of course, the biggest factor in upgrade process (regardless of whether a piece is new or used) will always be system synergy. It's gotta sound right to you in your system, otherwise why spend the money?
All I know is that I would never have the system I have now without buying the majority of it used. I guess it depends on one's priorities... would you rather drive a brand new "stripped" econobox or a "fully loaded" used (insert your favorite luxury car model here) for less money? :thumb:
StereoNut
Good point StereoNut.
My transport, DAC, and monoblocks are all used.
I would also throw out the suggestion of going with cottage industry sources. My DAC has been cottage modded, all my cabling cottage made, my attenuators cottage made, and my speakers were cottage designed/built.
My $45 Ikea rack (nightstand), GIK absorption panels, and various low cost isolation products are the only new/retail stuff in my system.
Quote from: bacobits on October 02, 2009, 04:00:21 PM
Oh one more thing. I'm actually sick of some of these people's opinions on these boards.
No names mentioned but not here.
Den
Man, talk about hitting the nail on the head! I've gotten so sick of it I can hardly stomach visiting some of the other forums. Here's to you Den :beer:
I love used gear(probably because I can't afford the new stuff), right now there are so many great deals to be had-if only I had money!!
Oh yea, there are lots of good deals now.
I don't have the $$ to act on any of it. I would do it only because it was there.
Not because I'm unhappy withn my system or sound. It's an affliction. :roll:
I would love to know what some of these people
pay in the first place for this stuff. $5K amps selling for $2K.
Do they lose that much money?
Den
Quote from: bacobits on November 05, 2009, 03:47:40 PM
Oh yea, there are lots of good deals now.
I don't have the $$ to act on any of it. I would do it only because it was there.
Not because I'm unhappy within my system or sound. It's an affliction. :roll:
I would love to know what some of these people
pay in the first place for this stuff. $5K amps selling for $2K.
Do they lose that much money?
Den
Correct lots of great deals out there . Cash is and always be king. Over the years have bought new and used. b
Buying new at a discount though for me is most desirable. Full warranty and being the original owner will bring a larger return when its time to sell. Depending on the cost of the item a substantial discount can be negotiated. However usually a relationship with the dealer before helps. Repeat customers just get the deals. As it should be IMO.
IMO today a smart dealer will have a trade in program available . This way he can attract both the used and new crowds. If more dealers or manfs had such a plan like cars it could be a good thing. Set the standards for used pricing and valued trades. One of the reasons besides its great sound is my Micro Benz cart. They allow $800 towards a new cart when you trade in the old. BRILLIANT. Any opinions ?
charles
I have always longed for one of those flagship Sony CDP (the 7 series). Modded, up to date, I'm sure it would hold its own against anything today. As Rollo said in the begin, circuit design is just being handed around and refined. What has changed significantly is parts quality. The only thing really new are the class T or D or whatever you want to call them. My ICE amp is one component that I wouldn't trade or sell or replace with a class A of yore. On the other hand, I'm absolutely sure speakers have improved enormously over the years and I would never want a 30 year speaker in the house (unless it was rewired and re-parted)
30 year old speakers are tough for two reasons. First speakers are mechanical devices that can wear out over time. In particular many of the materials used in cones and surrounds in that era were plagued by a tendency to dry out and crack as they aged. Secondly, 30 years ago represents the really early days of "high end" and there was not much available in the way of audiophile speakers. Jon Dahlquist had just introduced the DQ-10 and the Magneplanar had just come on the scene (under the Audio Research banner) However, if you were to just fast forward the clock about 7 - 8 years to the late 80s, we are looking at a whole different world. In addition to updated designs from Magnapan, we are also starting to see great new designs from companies like Thiel, Martin-Logan, Apogee, Vandersteen and a whole host of others. These were all pretty groundbreaking designs and while they may not keep pace with today's state of the art speakers, they certainly sound no worse than they did back then (and with some of the newer electronics that have come around since then, in many cases they can now sound even better.) And by the time the 80s came around, advances in material science were such that speakers did not break down over time as much as they previously did. And compared to the prices we must now pay for high end speakers, some of the models of that era are a downright steal. For example, both Thiel 3.5s and Maggie MG IIas can be found on the used market in excellent condition (both functionally and cosmetically) for under $1000. Now; while neither of these speakers can compare sonically to the current flagship models from their respective companies, both can still produce a credible high end sound and can be in your house for a price that is not much more than you would pay in sales tax on the purchase of what is now that company's top of the line speaker. In terms of pure sound per dollar (or franc) you still can't beat some of these golden oldies. And while many of us have grown past these speakers, they do represent a great value for someone new to the hobby or someone who is on a tight audio budget
Tom