Guys:
I am going to ask a rookie question and while I am not exactly a rookie anymore I know enough to be really confused! :duh If you were starting a system from scratch today what system component would you select first?
A. Speakers
B. Source
C. Preamp
D. Amp
I have only participated in audio as a hobby for 2.5 years and the more the I think I learn the more confused I become. Synergy of the components of a system seems to be one of the big factors in the sound quality a system produces. Okay, most of of agree on this, but how does one go about the process of achieving it? I have read arguments for and against selecting the speakers first. Same for the source but I don't think I have read many or any arguments for selection of the amp as the initial component of a system. I have come to believe that the amp(s) in a system may make more impact on sound quality than any other component. So, would it make sense to select the amp(s) first and then select speakers with proper efficiencies for the amps to drive them with authority?
I hope this will generate some responses as I really am interested to learn from your experiences.
Ken
A really good educated guess inspired by being in the right place at the right moment determines many of my gear choices... And sometimes it's just a deal too good to pass up.
I don't think there is a definite answer, Ken. But if I had to choose, I'd go with speakers first, followed by an amp that is known to work well with those speakers. Ideally, I'd choose to purchase an amp and speaker combo that I've heard or liked first... then go for a preamp then source gear. But that's me.
-C
I would agree 100%. The speakers must be matched to your preference and to your room. Next is an amp that will properly drive and control them and has good synergy.
Then, it's a toss up between the preamp and the source. I'd likely get a better source and settle for a preamp that did as little harm as possible - or at least nothing that drove me up a wall.
Bryan
Not only do speakers have to match to your room, but they have to match your preference in sound. Horns speak to a very different type of person than Magnaplaners. It also depends on the kind of music you listen to most, and at what volumes.
Room treatments are also a must for a proper sound to emerge.
The amp must work with the speaker. A low efficiency-low impediance speaker needs something very different than a high efficiency-high impediance speaker. And tubes sound and work differently than solid state.
After that comes your sources, but it is definitely true about garbage in-garbage out. So the real answer is "everything". That's why they call it a system.
generally, I'm a speakers first kind of guy... once you find a pair you like that will work in your room both acoustically and meet WAF standards, you tailor everything else to them...
However, having said that, there are items further up the chain that are pretty much universally going to sound good and for the most part work no matter what speaker you put after them...
I used to think the speakers were most important, because they contribute the most distortion to the system (besides acoustics), but now I think they are equal or less important than the amplifier. Speaker distortion is usually low order and easily ignored as long as it is a well designed speaker. Speakers are passive, and can only sound as good as the electronics. Even with decent midfi speakers, the amp quality is what will determine how much time you spend listening, and how rewarding is that time. With more resolution in the speakers the amp becomes even more important. I would rather have an amp I trust and love to audition speakers than the other way around. But a little knowledge and experience is required for this approach. That's why I always recommend tube amps to newbies. Cheap tube amps will still be musically satisfying even with a bad match to the speakers. Frequency response suffers but not the soul of the music. As he learns better matching the system will improve. But if the first system is not inspiring and satisfying because of a cheap SS amp then he is out of the hobby.
I have had a few speakers and I liked them all even though radically different sound and design and quality. I have had much more challenge finding amplification that satisfies and does no harm. So I think it is more important to get it right than the speakers.
Id go with a smart speaker choice. The right amplification will strengthen the positives of the speaker and minimize its weaknesses. Speakers are also my favorite, because of the beauty. The wood, design, drivers. Its freaking intoxicating!
I'm a source kind of guy. IMO garbage in garbage out. There are TWO CAMPS. Camp one source first , camp two speaker first. EITHER will do. So for me next time [ God forbid] room first. source second [ CDP or TT, cart. arm and phono stage], speakers third, amp fourth and preamp fifth and cabling last for the final flavoring.
My reasoning is this. The room made right will make any system sound better[ done bt Bryan of course]. Then select a speaker that will enhance your room and MUSICAL TASTE. The amp must have synergy with the speaker. Classic combos can be researched and auditioned. Then a preamp to tie it all together. In my experience the preamp when changed [ in a existing system] always made the biggest difference in the sound.
The most important issue IMO is the music you listen to. As we all know there are classic combos in gear to float the boat of the rocker and the string quartet types. Maggies for example are not for rockers. Where as VMPS are.
Saying all that leads to the other choice. A single brand system a la Naim or Linn. Others like, Mc Intosh, Audio Note and Esoteric come to mind as well for the purist. Option three , lets say one is a CJ or Krell kind of guy who just loves their house sound. He will buy components first and then find a speaker which will have synergy with that choice.
In the end every component change will change the presentation. The room will be the constant with minor treatment revisions depending on speaker. You know the ol absorption reflection thingie.
charles
Every system I have ever built has started with speakers. After that, I build around the speakers. If you don't like the sound of the speakers off the get go, it wont matter what you run with them, you still wont like them.
Years ago I had a set of speakers here that were highly regarded, had numerous positive reviews etc and.....I hated them right from the start. I tried tubes, a dozen or so different amps, different sources and a host of other things and nothing I did made me like them.
The more I think about it, the more I realize that the first component to consider really is YOU. Others have said it and I agree.. you have to know what you want to a degree. Ken, I think you're at a point where you've heard a lot, gotten some good 'tastes' of what's available and are ready to rethink your goals with hifi. I think we all do this and it's actually a very fun part of the hobby. You get to re-invent your system.
When I started getting really serious about this hobby in the 1990 or so? I wanted a big, live sound so I bought a big Onkyo integrated amp and Klipsh KG series speakers... I got BIG sound. I traded all that in for an HK integrated with DCM Timeframe speakers... a very fine sound.. My friend Allen described it as going from 'buckets of slop to cutlets of veal'... ;) That comment stuck with me forever. By the mid-90's, I decidely wanted a 'lively' sound but not as in-your-face as the Onkyo/Klipsh but with the finesse ability of the HK/DCM combo. I ended up with B&W minipods, which were in the ballpark.. then Allen helped me find a B&K ST-140 and let me borrow a Hegeman Hapi preamp. Now we were getting somewhere!
I was finally able to start talking audiophile... and I could understand 'headroom' and what was possible.. and could speak more about what I wanted in a system.. and more importantly learned that what I was hearing was a system's presentation. Once I knew that, I could identify or get better advice not only on speakers but systems that had the sound I liked. Allen recommended Snell's designed by Kevin Voecks at some point.. and funny enough I ended up buying a Voecks design by the late 90's... the Revel F30's. Really fun speakers, lots of oomph, just a pleasure to listen to (until I moved). The move made me realize how important acoustics were. I knew but wow, then I really knew.
Knowing what you want is one thing.. but recognize that it's a learning process.. and once you get what you think you want, your tastes may have changed. Allow for that and enjoy what you have no matter what. Worrying about whether it's good enough only matters when it annoys you, when you're by yourself, listening to music... Not being able to enjoy your music alone sucks. Having others poo-poo your system is only mildly annoying.. not really a big deal to me... and if it's constructive, much appreciated!
It takes time to learn what you like/dislike and be able to describe it in terms that someone else will understand. What I call warm someone else might call bloated, etc. I've almost stopped trying to describe what I like and just listen and identify what I hear. Doing that keeps me objective.
OK, rambling over.. back to work....
-C
Thanks Guys:
Thanks for taking the time to respond. :D
Ken
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on September 16, 2009, 12:25:23 PM
Every system I have ever built has started with speakers. After that, I build around the speakers. If you don't like the sound of the speakers off the get go, it wont matter what you run with them, you still wont like them.
Years ago I had a set of speakers here that were highly regarded, had numerous positive reviews etc and.....I hated them right from the start. I tried tubes, a dozen or so different amps, different sources and a host of other things and nothing I did made me like them.
How does one audition a speaker without the rest of the system ? How can one tell if they have made the right choice without trying several gear combos. sounds like a merry go round to me. Speakers cannot be judged without the gear. Just trying to understand your reasoning NOT putting it down.
Could you please expand your thoughts. This is an interesting subject. Thanks.
charles
Well, even if you sold everything and started over, you'd still be constrained by your room, budget and ears. Speakers would undoubtedly play a prominent role, but I'd also make some choices early that would constrain amp decisions as well.
Having lived with power hungry speakers for a long time, I'd seriously consider exploring the SET/tubes/high-efficiency direction to see where it leads. Never really done that.
Quote from: rollo on September 18, 2009, 07:54:24 AM
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on September 16, 2009, 12:25:23 PM
Every system I have ever built has started with speakers. After that, I build around the speakers. If you don't like the sound of the speakers off the get go, it wont matter what you run with them, you still wont like them.
Years ago I had a set of speakers here that were highly regarded, had numerous positive reviews etc and.....I hated them right from the start. I tried tubes, a dozen or so different amps, different sources and a host of other things and nothing I did made me like them.
How does one audition a speaker without the rest of the system ? How can one tell if they have made the right choice without trying several gear combos. sounds like a merry go round to me. Speakers cannot be judged without the gear. Just trying to understand your reasoning NOT putting it down.
Could you please expand your thoughts. This is an interesting subject. Thanks.
charles
The speakers put out what you hear. You can swap out gear till your Blue in the face but for the most part, the speakers are still going to be doing the exact same thing and keep the sound they were designed for. SS versus tube will bring differences but I have yet to hear a crap set of speakers or a pair of speakers that I personally didn't like the sound of, made better by swapping out gear.
That is my rational. It may or may not be flawed but it works for me so I tend to stick with it.
None of us are gonna start with crap speakers. You have to assume all the gear is decent and you are seeking synergy. I'm with rollo, electronics are the soul, the speakers are the body. You need both but in real life soul projects a body. You gotta be coming from somewhere. The kind of music you play and the emotional communication is in the realm of electronics. The speakers allow or disallow the full expression of the source and amp. Speakers room and ears have to throught of together as one system, the physical layer.
Recording (word)
Electronics/wires (soul)
Speaker/Room/Ears (body)
Brain (awareness)
Quote from: richidoo on September 18, 2009, 12:19:43 PM
None of us are gonna start with crap speakers.
Crap no, but what may sound good or even great to you, may sound like crap to me and vice versa. There are folks on this board who use speakers I would not personally use. It's personal taste which is why I always start with speakers that appeal to my personal taste.
In demo systems, I put together what people want to hear or audition but for my own enjoyment, I start with speakers that I personally like and enjoy the sound of.
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on September 18, 2009, 12:02:17 PM
Quote from: rollo on September 18, 2009, 07:54:24 AM
Quote from: Black Sand Cable on September 16, 2009, 12:25:23 PM
Every system I have ever built has started with speakers. After that, I build around the speakers. If you don't like the sound of the speakers off the get go, it wont matter what you run with them, you still wont like them.
Years ago I had a set of speakers here that were highly regarded, had numerous positive reviews etc and.....I hated them right from the start. I tried tubes, a dozen or so different amps, different sources and a host of other things and nothing I did made me like them.
How does one audition a speaker without the rest of the system ? How can one tell if they have made the right choice without trying several gear combos. sounds like a merry go round to me. Speakers cannot be judged without the gear. Just trying to understand your reasoning NOT putting it down.
Could you please expand your thoughts. This is an interesting subject. Thanks.
charles
The speakers put out what you hear. You can swap out gear till your Blue in the face but for the most part, the speakers are still going to be doing the exact same thing and keep the sound they were designed for. SS versus tube will bring differences but I have yet to hear a crap set of speakers or a pair of speakers that I personally didn't like the sound of, made better by swapping out gear.
That is my rational. It may or may not be flawed but it works for me so I tend to stick with it.
Cool. Interesting theory. Its not flawed just your perspective. for me , as an example never liked Wilson speakers . At the shows the associated gear IMO was the problem. Now in the Lamm room those Wilsons blew me away. Wilsons claim to fame is neutrality. So in essence the gear will make a substantial difference in the enjoyment level. Same with the Maggies. Hated the Bryston setup loved the AR setup.
As Rich stated there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat. No right or wrong here just different opinions.
charles
I had similar experience with Wilson WP7, they sucked on Levinson's best, but I wanted to sell the house while hearing them with AR Ref electronics. Went back a week later same electronics, OK, but not transcendent as before. Speakers had been moved.
Amps and setup had a much more profound effect on the listening experience than the speakers which could sound like heaven or hell depending on how they were used.
Quote from: mdconnelly on September 18, 2009, 10:30:43 AM
Having lived with power hungry speakers for a long time, I'd seriously consider exploring the SET/tubes/high-efficiency direction to see where it leads. Never really done that.
The DeHavilland/Wilson Benesh room produced the music I liked the best at last year's RMAF. The problem was that the Amps, Speakers, Preamp, Source and Cables retailed for around $50,000.00. I had been enticed into the room from the Wilson Benesh Dealer while sitting next to him at the bar just chatting about audio. He told me I needed to come visit the room and hear an "affordable system."
Anyway, if I could afford to start over, I agree with Mike, Set Amps and high efficiency (non-horn) speakers would definitely be of interest.
Ken
Once you go SET most do not go back to push pull amps. That being said it really depends on the music you listen too. If your a rocker or techno dude stay away from the 300B based amps [ Airtight being the exception] IMO. Far away. Pointing out that some SETs like 300 B based are not up to snuff in the bass department. Now 845,805 or 211 based SETs can rock with the best of them.
So if your a midrange based type than the 300B will melt ya. If your a rocker than 845 might be for you. For me the most important area of reproduction is the top end. Bright, over detailed, sibilant, thin NOT my thing. What captures my soul is that naturally sweet, airy and still accurate top. The cymbals just float after that metallic hit and the decay is intoxicating.
Actually one of the most dynamic and lifelike systems I've experienced was Klipsh [K horns] and Losech & Weisner 8W SETs. mind boggling actually. Big Band was awesome. The horns had bite the bass kicked serious arse. Imaging their only weakness IMO. Go listen to a similar system oh bring a jock strap, cause your balls will hit the floor.
charles
There are speakers that are truly neutral, like the Hansons. These definitely let the character of upstream components come through and can sound good or not so good, depending. But there are lots and lots of speakers that are inherently colored, and no matter what you put in front of them you still hear their character. I think most speakers fall into this category, which is why it may be best to start with the speakers and then find an appropriate amp for them.
Possibly doing the yin/yang thing between them to get the right balance / neutrality. Offsetting the faults of one with the other, so to speak, more than accentuating the strengths of either will probably get you closer to happiness with the combo.