Say you had two pairs of speakers in your house. Each pair could be sold for about $2,500.00 netting you a total of $5,000.00.
Now say you wanted to spend that money on a used pair of speakers. What would you be looking at to audition?
So, the Adagios aren't working out for you, theoretically?
My upgrade philosophy includes a little padding, so if I have $5k to spend on speakers, I could stretch that to $6,500 if The Right Speakers were that much.
What do you want to use for amps? How deep do you need the bass to go? What are your hot buttons that make you swoon?
I'll get to thinkin' about that for ya.
It was just a what the hell thought. A used set of speakers in the 5-6k range would have sold new for 10-12k or more. I have never really listened to anything in that range. Maybe they would be so good as to make listening to music exciting again.
All good questions - coupled with the fact that there would be a TON of choices out there - new and used that would fall in that price range.
Having spoken to you over the phone, the anwers to the questions posed above are important. Integration with a sub or not is a key thing to consider. Active xover? Monitors with sub? Full range tower only?
I'll just say that given your room and the requirements/potential issues, a monitor/sub with active xover would be on my radar.
Bryan
It's fun thinking about spending someone else's money :lol:
If I were looking in the $5k range; and was using the 3205 amp; I would certainly try to audition a pair of these:
www.coincidentspeaker.com/partial.htm
A little under your price and brand new with all the tricked out options...
:)
WEEZ
There's a ridiculous list of used stuff on Agon. Some of it is like $13k+ new in that range. :shock:
Some of them are local-ish. That would be slick.
You should enlist the help of your local buddies to come on by and try to assist. There's only so much to be done on the web!
Hint - you should invite me over soon. :D
I just did under another ward. You and your 70s :D
Ward, not circle, that's for the Roundies at the other merry-go-round.
mca/Mike....Have you heard the Salk speakers....the HT3's ? A very nice speaker...good bass, a nice midrange, and detailed highs.
Your missing the music with the Adagios.... :?
And yes....I've heard both.
Chris
I haven't heard the HT3s though I certainly would like to.
mca - that's what *we're* getting, OK? :lol:
The HT3's are really good. But they need a bit more amplifier than a 3205.
WEEZ
A couple of Audiogon ad's that caught my eye:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1178049395
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1176767578
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1176767578
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1176008128
I like the look of the Salk HT3, but without the front baffle and in a simple veneer like rosewood. When I look at them, I can't help but think how large a chunk of the money goes towards the woodwork of the cabinets.
If a new speaker called for more power, I would be very curious to try out a Van Alstine or Channel Islands amp. Or in my dreams a big McIntosh...
Of those, the Vandy's are the only one's I'd consdier for your setup. The Coincidences and their side firing woofers are going to cause issues with your setup IMO.
The Piegas are gorgeous - would love to have a set - but I don't know that a 3205 is going to get it with them.
Just my 2 cents.
Bryan
I don't know people's experiences shipping giant speakers across the country via Agon purchases, but mine was marginal. I'd definitely talk to the seller about packing experience and technique. Any damage is going to be a bear to work out.
You'll get to hear the big brothers of those Coincidents this w/e.
Remember how much luck you've had buying speakers you haven't heard. Also remember how much of a PAIN it is to ship speakers to the next buyer if you don't like them. There's another opportunity for the shippers to smash your speakers and I can't imagine it's any more fun for the seller than the buyer with such problems.
The *cost* of buying and selling speakers is much greater than just the pricetag.
If for no other reason, you would enjoy an audition of Legacy Audio speakers. They moved to new factory last year and the line is being redesigned so older models' prices will drop further. :( Older models have been available used for far less than your target.
I have Focus 2020 and I can't imagine ever getting rid of it. It does everything really well on relatively low power, but can take up to 400watts if you have it. Kinda big and heavy though. And you will need a room that has (or can get) good bass response, because it will easily play below 20Hz.
I have heard HT3 and also Adagio in good setups. They were both truly excellent for small speakers, but there is just no substitute for square inches, except square feet - driver area, that is... :wink:
Rich
Spoken like a guy with a lot of *ahem* inches! :D
I have 8 - 10"s for subs. I guess you could say I'm well endowed. Being such I have to agree that lots of displacement makes for low, undistorted, controlled bass.
Legacy moved the factory?? last I knew they were at least building the cabinets here in Allentown (Macungie, actually) at the Allen Organ plant. Has that changed?
As any lady audiophile worth her salt will tell you, it's the diameter that matters:
ZuDefPro = 8 drivers * pi * 10*10 = 2514 sq in. = 17.5 sq ft. (Humongous!) =D>
LegFocus = 6 drivers * pi * 12 * 12 = 2714 sq in = 18.8 sq ft. (Colossal!) :-$
Speaking of big bass, I heard MMW last week at a medium sized club here in Raleigh renowned for its great sound reinforcement system. Two huge speaker cabinets up front were shaking the wall I was leaning against with each kick drum. We were at least 80 feet away. Bass range was crystal clear and musical but thunderous. It must be 100k cu ft in that room, and it was fully "pressurized," as the home theater guys say.. I can't imagine the drivers/amp that can do that! It didn't hurt our ears like the higher pitched notes did, but it was distinctly physical. Bass and kick downbeats were so loud, they distorted the air so melody instruments sounded "rippled" for a moment. Like in the ocean, little waves riding on bigger waves. It was pretty cool even though I looked like a dork, the old guy with fingers in his ears.....
My wife was with me at the show and crushed me in the way only a wife can when she said, "Too bad our speakers can't do that." I protested something about needing bigger amps, but the damage was already done... [-(
Hey, are those woofs on a separate circuit? I'm using a Crown K2 and it is one mean mutha on the woofers. No fan, slim fitting for the rack. It's a cheap, perfect 500 watt stereo sub amp.
Nice package! woof woof, bow wow wow. :D
Quote from: miklorsmithHey, are those woofs on a separate circuit? I'm using a Crown K2 and it is one mean mutha on the woofers. No fan, slim fitting for the rack. It's a cheap, perfect 500 watt stereo sub amp.
Nice package! woof woof, bow wow wow. :D
Never tried it, but I've heard nothing but good things about the Crown/woofer mating. Definitely a relatively inexpensive way of powering your way to excellent bass, assuming the woofers support the possibility.
Quote from: bobrexLegacy moved the factory?? last I knew they were at least building the cabinets here in Allentown (Macungie, actually) at the Allen Organ plant. Has that changed?
They moved last year to Springfield IL. No more Allen Organ. According to my Legacy dealer the woodwork guy is not making the cabinets anymore, started his own line of HT racks. They finally updated their website too after 3 years (at least). They showed the new models at CES, wish I coulda woulda shoulda gone...
Quote from: miklorsmithHey, are those woofs on a separate circuit?
No, all powered by my 70wpc tubes through the crossover. I have tried Nuforce on the woofers, it was tighter, but they would shutdown on "certain" tracks when pushed "really" hard. :twisted: I am building a set of ESP P101s for the woofers. They should be finished in 2010 Maybe?
I thought the DefPro had its own built in amplifiers (active)? I bet that Crown really stomps.
Quote from: richidooQuote from: bobrexLegacy moved the factory?? last I knew they were at least building the cabinets here in Allentown (Macungie, actually) at the Allen Organ plant. Has that changed?
They moved last year to Springfield IL. No more Allen Organ.
Bill Dudleston sold half of Legacy to the Allen Organ co. several years ago, he recently bought their share back and has resumed manufacturing in Springfield. \:D/
On one of my many visits to their showroom (before they moved), I was able to tour the facilities. It was a neat experience.
BTW I own one of their subs the Pacemaker, a dual 15"s in a 6 cu. ft. cabinet, and when I was there making the purchase a gentleman was having them refinish one so he would have a matching pair.:shock:
Talk about a lot of inches.:roll:
Lin
I never got there when they used to be in Springfield. Might have to take a road trip one of these days.
Bryan
The Definition 1.5s have a built-in plate amp and 40 hz low-pass filter on the subs. The mains roll naturally at 40 hz.
The Pros use higher output sub drivers with ragged response that Must be EQd. Without it, the response curve looks like a roller coaster ride that runs all the way to 1 khz. They're also passive, so they mandate an EQ box and another amp. I scoff at simplicity.
I've noticed a few amp designers are catching on to the high-pass idea for their mains amps. The Firenze that Srajan reviewed has a variable filter accessible by USB cable to a laptop to design the high-pass filter for the mains feed. Roger Modjeski can build a 100 hz filter into his amps. I've thought about commissioning him to do a 70 hz version for me.
Look at what WLM is doing, they're making their systems tunable for the room. To assume whatever's in the black (or mirror-finish wood) box will be perfect for any particular room is a crapshoot and leads to a lot of dissatisfaction in buyers and a LOT of product on Agon.
Quote from: miklorsmith
I've noticed a few amp designers are catching on to the high-pass idea for their mains amps. The Firenze that Srajan reviewed has a variable filter accessible by USB cable to a laptop to design the high-pass filter for the mains feed.
This is similar to what the R-DES does except that it takes your line level inputs, summs them together and then outputs two mono lowpassed, EQ'ed outs to your subs.
Roger Modjeski can build a 100 hz filter into his amps. I've thought about commissioning him to do a 70 hz version for me.
I have one of his 2.5 watt EM7 amps which has two sets of inputs -- one full range, and one, as you say, set to 100 Hz highpass. Changing the frequency is as easy as replacing a pair of capicitors. I actually plan to do this with mine -- setting it to 70 Hz, that is. No promises on when, but want to give this a whirl in place of your yammie someday?
-- Jim
quote]
Heck yeah!!
If it works out, maybe a review from Roger in the offing. He needs more exposure.
QuoteAs any lady audiophile worth her salt will tell you, it's the diameter that matters:
ZuDefPro = 8 drivers * pi * 10*10 = 2514 sq in. = 17.5 sq ft. (Humongous!)
LegFocus = 6 drivers * pi * 12 * 12 = 2714 sq in = 18.8 sq ft. (Colossal!)
Actually, the formula is pi*r^2 or (pi*D^2)/4 ... so you've overstated by a factor of 4. (Think about it ... how do you get the Focus with 6 - 12" drivers to have more than 6 sq ft?)
Hope that lady worth her salt is also very bad at math :wink:
You can also make up for the meat with the motion (think excursion) ... it's the volume of air you move, and thus the volume equivalent of air (Vas) you want to impress the ladies with.
mca,
Back to speaker-quest. As Bryan and miklorsmith have pointed out, there are many choices, indicated by your preferences and constraints. What kind of music, how loud, size of room, placement constraints, associated equipment constraints, etc etc.
Ask a question, get 6 in return :wink:
Quote from: InscrutableQuoteActually, the formula is pi*r^2 or (pi*D^2)/4 ... so you've overstated by a factor of 4. (Think about it ... how do you get the Focus with 6 - 12" drivers to have more than 6 sq ft?)
Hope that lady worth her salt is also very bad at math :wink:
You can also make up for the meat with the motion (think excursion) ... it's the volume of air you move, and thus the volume equivalent of air (Vas) you want to impress the ladies with.
Thanks for that correction Inscrutable. Sorry! :oops: It's been a long time since math class. At least I got the formula right. Do I get 1/2 credit for that? Can I retest?
The idea behind legacy's large driver approach (bass and mids) is to keep excursion low to maximise linearity and reduce distortion that rises with excursion. Large diameter drivers allow same volume diaplcement at lower excursion. Bass is very easy and realistic at high volume. Their Whisper model has 4 x 15s each side!
Problem solved. Just got a sweet deal on a pair of Piega C8Ltd speakers. There are a few others on this forum who's opinion I trust that own the Ltd's and absolutely love them.
I own a pair of the regular C3's and really enjoy them. I am told the step up in sound quality will be huge.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions :D
Now the search for a the perfect amp to drive them...
Piega's, nice choice.
Enjoy.
Bryan
Nice Mike! I'll look forward to checking 'em out. I'd wait on the amp until you can put them through some paces and figure out what would compliment best. It looks like their impedance is low (3 ohms) in the midbass (according to the Stereophile review) so the amp will probably be of the muscular, solid-state variety.
See suggestions here:
http://www.audionervosa.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=183 :D
When do they arrive?
I was really interested in the Genesis 6.1 speakers, but I figured the large size and massive bass response would cause even more problems in my room. Hopefully, the 28hz low end of the Piegas will cooperate in my room.
The Piegas are still fairly small, and I like the fact that the mid and tweet panels are combined, so there should not be as large a problem with integration while sitting at a fairly close distance.
I have heard a few other speakers with planar mids and tweets and did not care for the sound. (I know miklorsmith agrees with this) Those that I have talked to about the Piegas say the drivers are the most natural sounding they have heard.
I won't make any decisions on an amp for a while yet. I will use the speakers with the Bella for now and see how the combo sounds. A couple of amps that I do have in mind to check out are Van Alstine, Moscode or a mighty Mac.
I just made the deal, and I assume it will take about a week for the funds to clear and another week for the shipment to get here.
Congratulations! :) :beer: I'm really excited for you, Mike. I hope all goes well for the transaction and shipping... fingers crossed... [-o<
I can't wait to hear how you react to them.... I think you should listen on your current tube amp first. Mine sounded pretty good on a Butler 2250 also... but the McIntosh just has a magical connection with the Piega's that have detail with finesse. I went through a lot of iterations with Hantra... watched him try tons of amps.. worked for months on perfect placement.... and when he got it 'right'... and I mean really 'right' I had to have it.... but I couldn't afford it. So, I have 'the little sister' to everything he has... except the speakers. My P5's seem like a side-step from the C3's... not really better or worse... retail was similar...
Anyway, hope you enjoy them as much as Hantra and I have... Ever since I bought mine I feel like I've been 'done' looking for speakers.
Congrats again... let us know how you like them...
Enjoy those new speakers Mike....I look forward to your review... :beer:
Now I've heard it from a reliable source.....a good match with the Piega's.....here... (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00060NHTK.01-A3CDPEGSIQM61V._SCLZZZZZZZ_V1128003838_.jpg).... :lol:
(http://www.piega.ch/review_archiv/img/stereophile-01-2004-c8ltd.jpg)
Soooo, I'm ready to hear them. Are they on the way? Can you shoot me a tracking number? :lol:
Word on the street is that these were delivered. Wuzzup?
Right - enquiring minds want to know....
Bryan
I have confirmation that the speakers were delivered and that they are better than the other Piegas.
*end transmission*
PLEASE GIVE US SOMETHING! :D
Yes, they are here and arrived without a scratch via Roadway. They are a significant step up in size, looks and sound from the C3 they are replacing.
The modded SB3/Bella combo does not seem to have the oompf to drive the speakers to their fullest, but it sounds pretty good at lower levels.
Low end is still lacking due to room problems, but there is a little more heft then there was before.
*gasp* We're going to have to measure your room, Mike! Now if I can figure out how to run the measurement gear myself, we're in like Flynn.
I bet Tyson has a monster amp he could bring over.