The Katanas are with their new owner in Atlanta. He was thrilled to get them, excited to start up his audio hobby again after 30 years away with career, kids. Now retired, he is jumping back in head first. For me, they accomplished the mission of getting familiar with the ceramic driver sound, seeing how they sound on my favorite music types, different amps, etc. I loved them, and would recommend them to anyone. I did not like the TL bass as much as the reviewers did, but it was amazingly deep, loud and tuneful, just not as detailed as I have grown accustomed to with large direct radiating bass drivers.
So now I'm listening to my beloved feastrex drivers in the planet-10 Maiko, made of MDF. It sounds really good, but the MDF is smearing things a bit. So, like a good diy'er, instead of fixing it I'm thinking about what I should build next. Here are the possible choices.
1. Feastrex Sphere - in a spherical sealed enclosure, with subs. The sphere made of layered Baltic Birch plywood, machined to spherical shape by lathe or mill. Sphere is perfect exterior shape for a monopole loudspeaker, minimizing diffraction. Spherical speakers that I have heard at RMAF all had a similar calm, expansive open clarity that was very attractive. I couldn't believe the different it made, but after hearing 4 very different spheres in contrast to the usual boxes I was sure it was the shape that made the difference. With a small full range driver like Feastrex, a spherical cabinet is easier to execute than a 2 way. I will eventually do this in some form or another. I even have some foam hollow spheres that I bought a while back thinking I could make them as foam sandwich composite, but it would still need some machining for the flange inset. So I figure machine the whole thing to be easier and far prettier. I know some good turners in NC, and I scoped a CNC shop that can do it. ANer Nick even made the 3D files for me. Some advantages of sphere enclosure (http://www.trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm) Labor is the only real cost here.
2. Feastrex Maiko in non resonant cabinet - what I'm listening to now. I've been working with this design for a while. I built 4 variants so far, experimenting with design updates, tuning tweeks, construction materials. Early experiments were far from ideal, so I was about to scrap it until the new version, drastically redesigned emerged. I figured what the hell, I'll slap it together and have a listen. MDF is cheap so I made it in MDF. I learned the lesson the hard way that MDF is resonant. I think the main problem is the single layer 18mm MDF on the front baffle. Maybe I can just stiffen/damp that. Worth a try. Those compound angles were not too fun. But the baltic birch version I built last summer sounded fast and alive. Colored from the design flaws, but I liked the energy. So a rebuildin BB is an option. I already have the wood. Flat to 50Hz, needs subs. Maiko 2 (http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/MaikoMk2-3D.gif)
3. Feastrex in OB with bass drivers - along the lines of the Granada loudspeaker system made by The Lotus Group, owner Joe Cohen is an AN member. He is the Feastrex importer for N.A. and Black Sand Audio is a Feastrex dealer if you want to know more about them. Anyway, Granada uses super-dee-duper bass drivers designed for open baffle, along with active, digital crossover. I have made an open baffle speaker for these drivers a couple years ago. It sounded awesome from 250Hz on up, that is until I tried to add bass drivers without knowing what the hell I was doing. I think I have a better idea now what is required to make it work. I have not heard the Granadas yet, but my friends who have heard them as well as magazine reviews of the shows all say they are truly amazing. Dipole benefits with strong dynamics, SPL, and living organic feel all missing in the Quads. I think I could do it for a little less than the Granada's 150k$ asking price. Though they would not be as pretty, and would not use the gold plated field coil driver with exotic permendur magnetic material in the motor. I loved the dipole bass of the Quads. No room issues at all in the bass. The Lotus Group Grenada (http://www.lotusgroupusa.com/Granada.htm)
4. Line array - This is a new design called MCLA, invented by John Murphy of True Audio. Murphy Corner Line Array (http://www.trueaudio.com/array/) mounts in the corner stretching from floor to ceiling. It uses cheap full range aluminum drivers from Parts Express with EQ to make it do the full bandwidth, 30Hz - 20kHz. I have never heard a line array that I liked so far including the Scaena lust monsters (http://www.scaena.com/scaena_homepage.htm), but rollo, topround and many others say arrays like Pipedreams can be a great speaker design when done right. Previous designs have been free standing, not on the wall, which I assume will affect stage depth illusion. I also worry whether these Dayton aluminum 2.5" drivers are really capable of nice treble. There is nothing to stop them from metallizing the sound, but the distortion spectra look very clean. I would EQ the arrays with PC feeding my DAC, not with Behringer as Murphy suggests. The nice things about these are the very low distortion, and very high efficiency, no crossover. Sol's i60 would be enough. I could wire them for higher impedance to use with OTL tube amps. They disappear into the corners, floor space in LR is reclaimed by happy wife. They are nearly invisible, except for the 30 drivers per side threatening to pulverize anything within 50 feet. Crystal clear 100dB bass to 25Hz should be possible. 8) I have a couple driver samples, I need to mount them in some boxes and have a listen to the treble. What will 60 drivers each spaced a different distance from my ears sound like at 10kHz? Now add reflections from walls and ceiling. Either really really good, or maybe not so much. Hey, I've made bigger mistakes than this. #-o
5. Accuton Active 3 way - I LOVED the ceramic driver sound of the Katanas. Best midrange I ever heard. I love midrange texture and ceramic is the Godzilla of texture/realistic tone. Accuton makes a new high sensitivity versions of the Katana drivers now, with neo motors. Similar to the Coincident Total Victory drivers. The mids and tweets alone would cost more than any of these other projects. I could put them into a cylindrical spheroid cabinet. 1st order passive is possible with these drivers, but I would plan to do all active with PC based digital crossover room correction software like Audio Lense or Acourate and ESS 9018 based DACs. I can have perfect (electrical) phase response the entire bandwidth. Accuton makes a new 12" ceramic bass driver also, but I think I would go elsewhere for better value, like Eton or AE. This is more of a high tech, low distortion, tweeky, nervosa inducing, hifi weenie approach. I'll eventually do this one too, or just buy Coincident Total Victorys. Gotta get that ceramic back in my veins someday.
6. DTQWT - high efficiency 3 way design by Troels Gravesen over in Denmark, using his custom designed (for Jantzen) 8" midrange paper driver made by SEAS, along with a vintage large silk dome waveguided tweeter and a pair of quarter wave loaded bass drivers to make 95dB with minimum 7 ohm impedance, all passive. Troels is a master crossover designer, and this speaker has already been built by many people and has good reviews. It won't have the extreme bionic resolution of the ceramics or Feastrex, but it's a known quantity and ticks many of my checklist boxes. Could probably sell the thing later too. This would be a hardcore music listening speaker that could use normal amps with passive crossover. That has appeal compared to the complexity and nervosa of an active system. But this could be done active too, with the Behringer crossover I already have, but not with 6 tube channels. Big ugly obelisk boxes. I originally bought my Manley 300Bs to go with these speakers, then Obamacrash scared my wallet closed tight. "No new money." DTQWT (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/DTQWT-12.htm)
All comments and advice welcome. Those who know me will roll your eyes because you know I will just end up doing something completely different anyway. But I've been thinking about these options for a long time now so odds are one of them is next.
Thanks guys!!!
Rich
I know this isn't DIY and maybe nothing to do with what you want, but if I were in the states, I would have bought these by now: (Salvadore's "for sale")
COMPONENTS NOW ON SALE
COINCIDENT VICTORY II- I've reluctantly decided that I don't require speakers of this outstanding quality in my Home Theater system, so I decided to sell and replace them with something more modest. This particular pair was part of the very last batch of 6 that were ever made, back in 2007. They are dark cherry and I had every possible upgrade done at the time, internally and externally, to optimize them, including the Extender Feet.
They are in excellent condition, with only a few minor blemishes that you must be very close to see. I have the original owner's manual and the original cartons. They were $ 7,000+ new, and I'm asking only $ 3,500 for them, with shipping extra.
I have some digital pictures of the Victory IIs that can be sent to anyone who is interested. Finally, here is my Review of these speakers.
NITTY GRITTY 2.5FI RECORD CLEANING MACHINE- In excellent condition, though the auto fluid dispenser hasn't been used for a while, so I can't guarantee that this feature will work. However, I checked inside the unit, and there are no clogs. A bonus- a Vac-Sweep Replacement Kit is also included. The Retail for this package is $ 850, while I am asking only $ 385. I also have the original carton and instructions. A picture is available.
Please go to High-End Audio for any other components and/or accessories.
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Definitely not DIY - BUT....
If you really want silky, quick, detailed mids. If you really want bass that's tuneful, full, rich, articulate, not sloppy, etc. If you really want drop dead gorgeous images....
You really need to consider coming over to the dark side of panel speakers. Yes - they are very demanding in terms of placement, but, if you can, they can be everything you'd want. Think Maggie MG-20's
Bryan
Rich the accuton Cabasse combo is a killer. Check out ORCA. The total victories are mesmerizing and hot. The MG 20s are probably the only speaker I would replace the Pipedreams with.
Although the tonality and harmonic structure of the Accuton Cabasse or Victory speakers are first class the imaging and sound staging cannot be equal to the Maggies. The midbass where the soul is is there in spades.
Both the Maggies and Victory require power. Lots. Even though the Victories are highly sensitive they perform with lots of juice. Great with Futterman OTLS. You have the room for any of these .
If you decide to DIY then IMO the spheres would be the best bet with subs. However I would try the Feastrex in the sphere.
whatever you decide have fun trying.
charles
OK, now you guys are forcing me out of my neat little box. I thought 6 choices would be enough for you to choose? :rofl:
Someday I'll hear 20.1 Magnepans, I look forward to that. Funny the opportunity has never presented. But the price of that project is not in the cards now anyway. I figure about $13k for used speakers and suitable amps? I would prefer a more sensitive speaker that will work with more amps that visit my house. Thanks Bry
I meant to say Coincident Pure Reference, not Total Victory. The one with the ceramic drivers, high efficiency and easy impedance. I did look at Arthur's ad and review. Thanks shep! When I scan Audiogon I always hit Coincident, Atma-sphere, Manley and JPS. I've never seen a Pure Reference for sale though, good sign. So those would be big bucks too. I'd rather build it myself anyway.
Charles, I couldn't find anything with Accuton and Cabasse together. Couldn't find ORCA either.
Thanks for the advice guys. More!
6 enough in Nervosa? :rofl:
If you want an easy load and not a lot of power requirements, then the Maggies are definitely not your choice - or even in the running.
If you want what you had with the Ushers, plus a nice disappearing act, better tonal balance, etc. - then they are. There's just something about panel bass that I've never had with anything else. The closest I ever had was 2 KEF B139's in a dual transmission line.
Good luck in your search Rich.
I'm gonna make a point to hear them this summer even if I have to drive. You know I like the big sound. I can't appreciate your enthusiasm without hearing them for myself, you know? I still have Quad cooties in my mind about panel speakers, but I know magnetics are totally different than electrostatic. It's something you can't read about you have to go hear it. Thanks Bry
Does your desire for big sound conflict in anyway with the room shape or acoustics you have to work with?
Scotty
Quote from: richidoo on April 06, 2010, 09:05:25 AM
I still have Quad cooties in my mind about panel speakers.......
Rich,
Get that thought right out of your mind. :duh While Quads did some things extremely well, they had definite limitations and were not the right speaker for many people (or for playing certain types of music.)
A properly set up and powered pair of Magnepans will go places in terms of bass reproduction and dynamic range that Quads couldn't even dream of. But properly set up is the key word. You need to have the room and the ability to place them where
they (as opposed to the rest of the family) want to be. My mancave does not provide a Maggies friendly space, so as much as I appreciate what they do, they have never really been a viable option for me.
If you are going somewhere for a listen try to give the 3.6s a try as well. They certainly are not 20.1s, but they do some pretty amazing thing for less than half the price. There could be some pretty intersting tradeoffs made between laying out the money for the 20.1s vs buying 3.6s and some (or all :D ) of the money saved into better electronics.
Happy hunting! :thumb:
Quote from: _Scotty_ on April 06, 2010, 02:51:03 PM
Does your desire for big sound conflict in anyway with the room shape or acoustics you have to work with?
Scotty
Hi Scotty. I am very fortunate to have a large room dedicated to audio, under the condition that it can be converted to domestic use when necessary. When I had the quads I had them 8 feet into the room (they needed it.) I can do pretty much anything as long as it doesn't look "cluttered." I violate that rule consistently, but I am reminded there is a difference between messy and cluttered. "Yes, dear..." The space is big enough for large speakers, but point v. line v. panel I don't know which to try next.
I don't desire "big sound," as in tall image wall of sound kinda thing, but I do want to be able to play naturally loud symphonic passages with brass and percussion without too much dynamic compression or amp strain. So with high sensitivity speakers I can get by with 60-100W (single pair per channel.) With Low sensitivity speakers I need 500W+ amp which gets very expensive if it sounds how I like. I like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Beethoven and they have large dynamic swings. It is mind blowing when it works, but it's been a really long time since I had that in my house.
Another vote for Maggies! Thanks Tom.
Quote from: bpape on April 06, 2010, 08:51:57 AM
6 enough in Nervosa? :rofl:
Only when I try to think about them all at the same time. :duh
Hopefully there have been some evolutionary changes to the Magnepan line-up. When I had MGIIIs I ran right out dynamic range on the Telarc version of the Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite,I had more than 400 watts available into a 4ohm load and I popped the tweeter and mid-range fuses on both channels. My speakers appeared to start compressing at maybe 95dB and no matter how much power was fed into them they stopped getting louder. When I purchased my speakers there was a specification on the speakers stating that the peak loudness level was 105dB. At that point in time this might have been correct information as it appears to have been born out by my experiences with my pair of MGIIIs.
Scotty
Rich,
Take the maggies off your list. With your right wall open to the kitchen- it'll never sound right, the image won't work. If that wall has it's special DIY acoustic panel ( you know the one you started 1yr ago :-P ) that closes off that open space, you'll get a MUCH more real, put together image/soundstage. AS loud as you say you want to play large orchestral pieces, figure your speaker cost x 2 for amps. bass will still have limitations- except maybe the 20.1 which I have not heard.
Good luck.
Rob
Rich:
Since I know you I think this one is the project you should tackle:
1. Feastrex Sphere - in a spherical sealed enclosure, with subs. The sphere made of layered Baltic Birch plywood, machined to spherical shape by lathe or mill. Sphere is perfect exterior shape for a monopole loudspeaker, minimizing diffraction. Spherical speakers that I have heard at RMAF all had a similar calm, expansive open clarity that was very attractive. I couldn't believe the different it made, but after hearing 4 very different spheres in contrast to the usual boxes I was sure it was the shape that made the difference. With a small full range driver like Feastrex, a spherical cabinet is easier to execute than a 2 way. I will eventually do this in some form or another. I even have some foam hollow spheres that I bought a while back thinking I could make them as foam sandwich composite, but it would still need some machining for the flange inset. So I figure machine the whole thing to be easier and far prettier. I know some good turners in NC, and I scoped a CNC shop that can do it. ANer Nick even made the 3D files for me. Some advantages of sphere enclosure Labor is the only real cost here.
Thanks Scotty and Rob. The right wall will be closed off, but the dynamics are important. I will try to hear some 20.1s for myself.
Ken I think you may be right. That seems to be the one I am scheming on most. That and the Accuton in same kind of roundish blob enclosure. And the open baffle Feastrex, too.
Rich
You should definitely hear the Maggies. The 20's might be a problem with your room. Let me suggest the 3.6 Maggies. With your need for full scale, a good fast sub that can keep up with the Maggies should float your boat.
A good amp with plenty of reserve power, one that doubles the output into 4 ohms from 8 and doubles the output into 2 ohms from 4 should be
good or just get a Bryston amp. Caution, once you hear the Maggies at their best, you are hooked into an addiction that only Maggies can satisfy.
Henry
Just what I need.... another addiction! :rofl: Thanks Henry.
A listing of completed DIY designs: http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
I would keep my eye on the completion of these projects though, especially if you are a fan of Accuton.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=36370
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=33995
Great links Face, thanks! Lots to read there...
I've read lots of info on these projects, not so much on the results. I've noticed this throughout many DIY speaker projects documented online.. they work really hard discussing the plan and implementation but then there's not so much info on the listening results. Is that just the nature of DIY? Is it part of the fun to figure out what it might sound like?
-C
Good point Carl. DIY lives on hype and frugality, neither consistently lend towards great real world results. That's why I'm skeptical of the line array project, even though I respect John Murphy very much. I would like to see someone else get good results before I attempt. So far the one guy that has tried has not succeeded, but he did not heed the design recommendations. Most of the others I understand enough about the design to know how to make it work. The Troels speakers have a few positive anecodotal reviews, but his designs in general are widely regarded to be superb. I understand how he designed it and each step of the design, I know what the compromises are and what it should sound like. I'm familiar enough with the Feastrex driver to know its limitations and strengths too.
It is fun to build with anticipation of great sound for cheap money. But if you understand the details of the design you should be able to imagine accurately what it will sound like. The Line Array is so differnt than anything I've heard before that's why I don't know what to expect. So from that pers[pective it would be fun to buy the drivers for $700 and see what it does. I can always sell them to the next sucker who is curious to try out the design. Odds are that because the designer is so experienced and accomplished and familiar with line arrays that it will be at least decent. Good for head banging and Ginormous symphony explosions. I worry whether the high freq finesse will be there. Actually I suspect it will be compromised. How could it not with 30 drivers? That's what I mean by knowing enough about speaker design so you can recognize the potential weaknesses.
I'm glad you've got enough speaker wisdom to get into the DIY part of the hobby. Speaker building requires more discipline, learning and patience than I have.. And the time factor is pretty huge also. I think you're well into the learning curve so it sounds like more fun as you've described it.. but I would be painting a much bleaker picture if I was asked to DIY speakers. ;)
-C
I know enough to be dangerous, but far from wise. Passive crossovers is the hard part. I hope to avoid that as long as possible. Let's hope it's not so bad so you can just kick back and enjoy the fruits of my labors when(if) the sawdust settles, and not just sit there cringing in pain trying to be nice. At least you know you won't be the first to yell "That sounds like A**!" (SLA) opposite of (LES)
No way I would ever attempt a DIY project. Heck, It takes me forever, just to get speaker placement right.
Henry
Sometimes I think the quickest way to piss my wife off and have her gladly approve a large audio purchase is to tell her I plan to build the speaker/ component/ etc. Then follows my description of how long it will take, all the tools I need to buy, all the housework that doesn't get done, missed kids sporting events/ activities and lots of late night work, and she quickly responds, You're crazy, just buy it!!!
Rob
Quote from: Carlman on April 07, 2010, 02:23:28 PM
I've read lots of info on these projects, not so much on the results. I've noticed this throughout many DIY speaker projects documented online.. they work really hard discussing the plan and implementation but then there's not so much info on the listening results. Is that just the nature of DIY? Is it part of the fun to figure out what it might sound like?
-C
I spent quite a few years building Hot Rods with a friend of mine for the Custom Car show circuit. (and you think we can piss away money in this hobby?) It never failed that at any given show more than half of the cars on display were also for sale. It seemed that the guys who built cars for these shows got their kicks out id building them, not owning them. Once the car was finished it wasn't that much fun any more (and they needed the cash tied up in it to finance their next project.)
I would think it is much the same with DYI audiophiles. Their goal is to build as close to perfect a piece of equipment as possible, but since perfection can never be obtained, their building Jones is never satisfied.
Quote from: tmazz on April 07, 2010, 09:12:34 PM
Quote from: Carlman on April 07, 2010, 02:23:28 PM
I've read lots of info on these projects, not so much on the results. I've noticed this throughout many DIY speaker projects documented online.. they work really hard discussing the plan and implementation but then there's not so much info on the listening results. Is that just the nature of DIY? Is it part of the fun to figure out what it might sound like?
-C
I spent quite a few years building Hot Rods with a friend of mine for the Custom Car show circuit. (and you think we can piss away money in this hobby?) It never failed that at any given show more than half of the cars on display were also for sale. It seemed that the guys who built cars for these shows got their kicks out id building them, not owning them. Once the car was finished it wasn't that much fun any more (and they needed the cash tied up in it to finance their next project.)
I would think it is much the same with DYI audiophiles. Their goal is to build as close to perfect a piece of equipment as possible, but since perfection can never be obtained, their building Jones is never satisfied.
This is spot on for my situation except I do also go through phases where I just buy some gear in between. I built a ton of Pass designs, Aikido's, and other DIY's, which sound great, but there is a bit of a let down when the battle to finish it is over. I bought some gear after that, then scratched the itch again building some subs recently. Since the wood work was fairly new to me, fancy new power tools grace my workshop too, somehow justified by the satisfaction and peace from building it myself. Amazingly my wife is good with that since it seems to temper other life stresses as well.
And so it goes...
I agree with your observation, tmazz.. I used to be like that.. just build and build (insert hobby here) to get to some point but when you got it just right, or very close, it was over. I have had to learn how to appreciate a finished product. It is a new sensation for me. To sit back and actually appreciate what you've done and just say, "that's it" while enjoying (the attachment to music, for example) you've created is just awesome.
I appreciate the drive and enthusiasm that you can only get from chasing that perfect design, or sound, or other goal. It's a good thing and if it weren't for that there wouldn't be any new gear.
I was just wondering if anyone ever really validated results or did comparisons with known gear. The only DIY speakers I've compared were 'just ok' playing next to Usher 718's.
Rich, when you get your custom active room corrected complete package system together, I want to hear it. I will not grin and bear it, I'm sure it'll be divine.
-C
Quote from: richidoo on April 06, 2010, 07:45:21 AM
OK, now you guys are forcing me out of my neat little box. I thought 6 choices would be enough for you to choose? :rofl:
Someday I'll hear 20.1 Magnepans, I look forward to that. Funny the opportunity has never presented. But the price of that project is not in the cards now anyway. I figure about $13k for used speakers and suitable amps? I would prefer a more sensitive speaker that will work with more amps that visit my house. Thanks Bry
I meant to say Coincident Pure Reference, not Total Victory. The one with the ceramic drivers, high efficiency and easy impedance. I did look at Arthur's ad and review. Thanks shep! When I scan Audiogon I always hit Coincident, Atma-sphere, Manley and JPS. I've never seen a Pure Reference for sale though, good sign. So those would be big bucks too. I'd rather build it myself anyway.
Charles, I couldn't find anything with Accuton and Cabasse together. Couldn't find ORCA either.
Thanks for the advice guys. More!
It is www.orcadesign.com Zalytron www.zalytron.com used to carry Cabasse but I do not see them listed any longer.
charles
I built a pair of speakers, one. (remember Johnny Dangerously - "Don't hang me on a hook Johnny, my mother hung me on a hook once - Once.") :) It was the TNT Big Fun Box with 8" Fostex 206Es, there are pix in my gallery here. They had me sell my Gallo 3.0s but weren't the end of the line. That started me on the road to the Def. 2's.
I still have the BFBs, but now they have Omega Hemp drivers in there. Louis doesn't sell them, I got a used pair second hand a while back. They live in my garage, as ugly as ever but I have a Squeezebox out there with an old Onkyo receiver and I look forward to projects out there so I can listen to that rig. The receiver has bass/treble controls which the speaks need as the room's too big but the drivers are burly and can make real bass if properly massaged. I'll probably have these speakers forever.
In the past I've played around with them as replacements for the Defs. When I was 'without' between the Pros and the 2s I had them in my main room with the good gear. I've also used them as replacements in my new, way-smaller room. Other people don't think so, but I've lived with both enough to trust myself here - the essential tone is surprisingly close. There are a lot of important things the homebrews can't do that the Defs do but the genetic similarity is undeniable, and fun!
I say go for the spheres, that sounds like a super-cool idea. You'll need subs but there's part of the beauty. If you get the loading right in the main cabs you won't need any tweaking from (hopefully) 100 hz up. Then whatever EQ/phase/XO stuff you need can be done completely with the subs. IME, 80 hz with a steep slope is a good target for sub XO. That's about the lowest end of Johnny Cash's voice. If you can get there with the monitors you can have your cake and eat it too. Of course this requires uncommon sub controls.
Most have "frequency" which is a necessary start, almost none have slope. That's not the end of the world but it does limit how high the sub can go without mucking things up. Most have a phase switch but not continuous control. I wouldn't buy a sub without continuous phase. I've measured differences between 'right' and 'wrong' at 28 db which is a ridiculous amount. Sean at Zu said if you're within 25-ish degrees of correct you're getting I think 80% positive contribution at the overlap but with continuous phase you can get it perfect. Without it, there's a strong chance you're not close to 25 degrees.
The other option is that you move the sub all over the room to get phase correct, which may not be best for maximum output or best sound. So you have an imperfect choice.
Then having at the very least 2 bands of parametric EQ is so important to me. More is better. Better-than-flat, in-room bass response is oh so tasty.
Gopher it Rich!
o yea, I'd definitely listen to the Coincidents before buying, hopefully more than once. Not my cuppa.
When you think about it, all commercial designers were once DIYers. They measured and perfected their designs then went commercial for whatever reason. But they are still the same people with same talents. In time they improve, some don't. But they hang a shingle so they are not considered DIYers anymore. It's logical to assume that some DIYers who don't want to build for others are still more talented and qualified than the guys who want the fame and hassle of going pro. But their speakers don't get reviewed, or even heard by anyone else. Gary Pimm is an example. He made a subwoofer powered by tube amp, everything optimized for perfect synergy. He doesn't want to deal with the DIY vampires so it is not published. We all know he is a genius in other electronic areas, but who knew he built speakers too?
I do feel great satisfaction when I do woodworking. So speaker building has that added appeal, but the major attarction to DIY is in imagining how awesome it will sound playing my fav music when I am all done. Sometimes it sounds good, but so far it has not lived up to my expectations. But I keep trying, a little wiser from the previous mistakes and with a few new ideas how to solve them. The temptation to build someone elses design comes from desire to get a good success under my belt, and learn even more than blind fumbling on my own. But not many Feastrex designs published.
I've always been building or tinkering with models or inventions for many years. So this is no different, just the same tendencies pointed in a new direction. If I'm able to make a speaker that is good I would have fun making a few for other people. But I don't have any illusion of building an empire or being famous or any visions like that.
To me the music listening is still the most important thing. The woodworking or speaker design puzzle solving is not the hobby. I have other puzzle hobbies and other woodworking goals that are more rewarding for less work. So it's the anticipation of the thrill of hearing music more intensely that draws me.
I checked Orca website, looks like some great stuff there. Thanks Charles!
Hey Mike!! Nice to see you.
Of course, listen before buying, always. Just thinkin out loud. I have no intention of buying commercial speaker ever again, unless I am too busy or too rich to waste my time building.
Thanks for the sub advice. God knows you have some experience there. The digital filters offer all those adjustments you mentioned so I would probably head in that direction. Are you still using the Behringer (or was it Furman?) sub amps?
I'm done building speakers. I have so many projects on the go now, I don't even want to attempt it. I built close to a hundred different speaker designs over the years *at least*, most of the time with less than ideal tools. Sometimes I farmed the cabinets out to get a more professional look, sometimes not.
Between landscaping, business, better half, etc. there is absolutely no time to do it. I remember the joy of tweaking a design and getting something really cool. Lots of folks have some great speakers for less than I paid in parts as a result.
I'll stick with commercial from here on out as it relates to speakers... the woodworking is the thing that prohibits me from dabbling.... I would ultimately want a CNC and a nice shop. The postage stamp lot my house sits on now isn't conducive to building the appropriate shop to do all this stuff..... and on the electronics side, I'm not skilled enough nor have enough desire to do it myself... I really enjoy the process, though. My current amp project with Sol is going to be really fun to listen to and tweak...
I'll be happy to have a listen when you finish, Rich and enjoy your labor :) hehehe... I'll try not to cringe or use some of my slang sayings if it hits my hot buttons ;)
Before I become involved in DIYing my own loudspeakers again I will be buying some serious measuring tools. LMS or some other sophisticated software. Without the ability to measure the drivers impedance curve and the raw drivers behavior in a test box as well as the final design it is impossible to get it right you just wind up chasing your tail. I am also addicted to the qualities a quasi-second order series network brings to the table and this creates some additional problems with designing a speaker,making measuring accurately even more important.
Scotty
Well, I figure I haven't doled out my customary dose of unsolicited opinion in a while, so . . .
Yep, still have the Behringer A500 amps. I'm only using one right now, the small room can get by with 300 or so wpc in the bass. :D The big room definitely likes the monos and 500 better. At $200 a piece, no reason not to go monos with short speaker cables if you're inclined that way. Subs under the spheres?
I spent a lot of time with TacT stuff. I had the 2.0s, the 2.2X, and the XP. Those things are spendy, and I didn't like the DACs. So I spent a bunch of money going through DACs to get the sound right. The Altmann and Lessloss were the best I found but something wasn't right. I decided the digital processing itself was the problem and after switching to the Lamm preamp I believe that even stronger. Now this was something like $8k worth of digital XO/processing, presumably about as good as was available a couple years ago.
Now I'm using a complicated XO/processor just for 100 hz down. At these frequencies the processing is invisible as far as I can tell. This works great because these are the problem areas in almost all rooms. And, the processor I'm using is still the dbx 260 which can be had for $500 if you look around. It has all the bells and whistles plus more that I haven't even played with yet (need to do that). Oh yeah, in stereo. Actually it has six channels and the capability to remember 100 presets for movies and such.
It sits in my rack, once I get the room calibrated I set the control screen to 'sub level'. Different moods, volumes, albums want a little more or a little less bass juice. I can spin the dial in .1 db increments to pressurize the room exactly to taste at any time.
You could build this setup for your subs to compliment the spheres perfectly. The subs could be completely passive, no circuitry inside. Park the Behringers behind or to the side and connect with 10 gauge romex wire. Long balanced cables to the dbx which could sit in your rack.
Then of course you'd need a microphone, mic preamp, and Room EQ Wizard. Hog heaven, all DIY, and no passive XO to buy/build/screw up. Even if you got the XO right, it'd still be wrong. :)
If you designed the subs to sit under the spheres, full phase control would ensure that's the "right spot", wherever "that spot" worked best for sound from the spheres.
I'm tellin' ya, once you get past the active bass learning mode, you Will Never Go Back. I would never again even consider ANY speaker that didn't include this functionality.
I'm intending to use active filters in any of these project, except in the case of DtQWT which has well designed passive crossovers. Passive filter design is the hard part. Once I heard Selah Audio's Mejor speakers with DEQX crossover I was hooked. It's a completely different animal.
The Feastrex should fetch down to 70Hz in the sealed box, so a flexible digital lopass filter on the bass drivers should be able to match up with the main easily. Not sure if it would go under the spheres, or elsewhere. Good to know the Behringers are still working out for you. At low freqs it is a perfect solution. They are class D, right?
Measurement equipment and design software is especially important when designing for passive crossovers. With active there is a lot more flexibility as long as you stay within the limits of physics. Choosing compatible quality drivers is the most important part. This is the golden age of audio drivers. You can even buy brand new copies of the best vintage drivers.
Shane I'm counting on your canary reactions. Don't ever change! But don't hold your breath either. This won't be done for a couple months.
Their manual specifies Class AB, they don't heat up much - must be biased into B. They weigh 20 pounds a piece, have big transformers, and put out 600 watts peak bridged! Smokin' deals for sub duty.
You could *try* doing the spheres XOverless, knowing the backup could be some sort of filter. Those drivers are so awesome I'd just try to hear them as pure as possible.
On sub placement, if you get the phase right and they cross in the area you're talking, you should be able to put them anywhere.
Just what I was thinking.
Quote from: hometheaterdoc on April 08, 2010, 08:36:07 AM
Between landscaping, business, better half, etc. there is absolutely no time to do it.
Boy that sentence resonates with me... between grad school and work... there's no time to dabble... let alone funds to dabble in....
I think it's been over a month since I've been able to sit down and listen to some music. Each term seems to get worse and worse... and it's so nice outside too. The last thing I want to do is work on a bunch of case studies. :(
Dave
Quote from: djdube525 on April 09, 2010, 01:41:18 PM
Quote from: hometheaterdoc on April 08, 2010, 08:36:07 AM
Between landscaping, business, better half, etc. there is absolutely no time to do it.
Boy that sentence resonates with me... between grad school and work... there's no time to dabble... let alone funds to dabble in....
I think it's been over a month since I've been able to sit down and listen to some music. Each term seems to get worse and worse... and it's so nice outside too. The last thing I want to do is work on a bunch of case studies. :(
Dave
Just remember that the time you put in NOW will benifit you later. Hang in there buddy.
charles
Quote from: richidoo on April 08, 2010, 08:22:09 AM
Hey Mike!! Nice to see you.
Of course, listen before buying, always. Just thinkin out loud. I have no intention of buying commercial speaker ever again, unless I am too busy or too rich to waste my time building.
Thanks for the sub advice. God knows you have some experience there. The digital filters offer all those adjustments you mentioned so I would probably head in that direction. Are you still using the Behringer (or was it Furman?) sub amps?
No more demos of commercial speakers for you! :rofl:
Seriously, I will be setting up a demo soon of something very different. I'll extend an invitation to everyone here for a listening session.
Busted! You make kits, right? ;)
Looking forward to seeing you soon Rick.
Quote from: Selah Audio on May 14, 2010, 06:07:02 AM
Quote from: richidoo on April 08, 2010, 08:22:09 AM
Hey Mike!! Nice to see you.
Of course, listen before buying, always. Just thinkin out loud. I have no intention of buying commercial speaker ever again, unless I am too busy or too rich to waste my time building.
Thanks for the sub advice. God knows you have some experience there. The digital filters offer all those adjustments you mentioned so I would probably head in that direction. Are you still using the Behringer (or was it Furman?) sub amps?
Nice to see you here on this side of the pond.
charles
No more demos of commercial speakers for you! :rofl:
Seriously, I will be setting up a demo soon of something very different. I'll extend an invitation to everyone here for a listening session.