I'm ready to start the next speaker. I thought I would post my progress, since I have to finish it quick for my G2G. So hopefully it won't drag out too much and you guys can follow along.
(http://www.lotusgroupusa.com/Images/Granada2010Sm.jpg)
This is based on the Lotus Group's Granada (http://www.lotusgroupusa.com/Granada.htm) open baffle speaker. It has received glowing acclaim since debut at CES 2009. It can be very expensive depending on options. It is 3" thick CNCed baffle, veneered, installed and voiced with digital crossover in your house. A beautiful speaker. Some of my feastrex friends heard it and decided to build variations of it for themselves. I think the main intention of Granada was to generate excitement for feastrex drivers in North America, and finally put on a good demo to show what they can really do. The reviews from Valin, Olsher, Harley were exciting, so I wanted a simple version for myself. I already owned the feastrex drivers, so what the hell.
So after taking a long time to decide which route (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=2203.0) to take for my next speaker, I bought the woofers a couple months ago. Same woofers used in the Granada, they are AE Dipole12 (http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=28). With Qts=.7, they are designed specifically for open baffle use. They can play low without boosting, in theory. I've not even heard them yet - but word is they are superb bass drivers. The motors are absolutely huge, but only 200W rating, designed for dipole... This is the 15" version, and the 12" uses the same motor. :shock:
(http://www.aespeakers.com/images/drivers/Dipole15-back.png)
The sight of a pile of expensive drivers stacked in the corner guilted me into getting started designing what I wanted to do. A good friend in MA, and fellow ANer "figby," encouraged me to take the OB route since his Feastrex 9" sounds so good in it. I tried an OB a couple years ago, but I didn't know enough to make it work. Actually it really sucked. But I remembered how great the feastrex sounded by itself in that baffle before the woofers were added. Woofer vibration on the unsupported thin MDF baffle ruined everything. I had the Ushers to chase so I chose not to pursue it. Opnlybaffled (Lin) got my cool peerless woofers. Hey Lin, did you ever use those?
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=500) (500th pic in AN gallery!)
After a month of drawing, and about a dozen minor variations on about 5 major themes, I finally ended up with this design:
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=499)
It uses some golden ratios, ellipses and eyeballing. I like the way it looks. It is called E-Lips, because it is an ellipse duh but also because it will be like electric lips (e-Lips) singing to me in my living room. My son Henry thought of the name, like e-Mail.
Time to build it... First I have to cut this ellipse shape somehow. Make donations payable to CNC shop... hehe I found articles how to draw an ellipse with string and nails. I tried that, but no matter what kind of string I used, even stranded copper wire, it stretched at the middle thus changing the shape. It has to be very flexible at the tips and very inelastic at the width. It just wasn't working this big. Then I looked into mechanical jigs (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17282) that use tracks and a beam to draw an ellipse. Woodworkers use these to route picture frames and such. But my ratio of length to width prevents using those jigs. I designed my own jig of the same type, but it can only draw one half ellipse at a time, you have to turn it around to finish the other half. I was discouraged by the time it would take to build it and work out the bugs before I could draw the line. There has to be a better way. Just as I was about to start making the jig, I printed something from CAD and noticed that my free CAD program (CADstd (http://cadstd.com/)) has a feature that lets you print out large plans to scale, using multiple sheets of paper with indexing lines to create a large paper plan. So 15 pages later and an hour of careful taping them together, and now I have this:
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=501)
Tomorrow I'll transfer the printer ink onto some thin plywood with a hot iron, then cut it out and sand it to the line to make a template. I'll use that to make the final parts in thick ply with jigsaw, template and flush cut router bit. More to come...
Rich
Great job, Rich 8)!
The only bad thing is that you are becoming too smart for me to be able to hang out with you, anymore :(. Oh yeah, and too damn ambitious, too :duh.
Wow!
All you DIY guys amaze me! I have a hard time just opening the baggie inside a new box of corn flakes in the morning without cereal flying all over the place and here's Rich building OB speakers from scratch.
SN
Heard the Lotus Group's Granada speakers at RMAF...they sounded very good.
Their a large floorstander....big bucks....mostly everyone in the room was enjoying them.
Good luck with your build Rich.... :beer:
Looking good there speaker maan. Would it be possible to make the elliptical piece from Spruce ? or maple. ? Rich what tweeter /mid are you using ?
Nice design. have fun.
charles
Quote from: StereoNut on September 11, 2010, 06:13:09 AM
Wow!
All you DIY guys amaze me! I have a hard time just opening the baggie inside a new box of corn flakes in the morning without cereal flying all over the place and here's Rich building OB speakers from scratch.
SN
Bill,
You need to dump the cat and get a dog. That way there will always be someone around to clean the floor for you. :rofl:
Hey Charles! Thanks..
It uses a full range driver from 250Hz on up, no tweeter, no crossover except to the bass drivers. The whizzer is big, but sounds pretty smooth. The driver does beam at high frequency and will cut your head off if you get in its path, Shane will need to crawl around on the floor for safety. :) That's part of the reason for the significant tilt. It is also time-aligned within .25". Bass drivers are perfectly aligned together for 10 foot distance.
http://www.feastrex.com/
I have the least expensive model, called D5nf. It uses permanent ferrite magnets in a spherical iron circuit, they claim the shape contributes to magnetic efficiency, I don't buy that but it looks cool and is very heavy, combined with extremely light Mms the baffle vibration is negligible. Joe Cohen, the Feastrex importer uses their 2nd from the top model in his demo Granada, with Field Coil motor with ultra high permeable core called parmendur. I think his is the type 2. $$
As for materials, you are right about the stiffness. Maple would be perfect. This is just a prototype made at a reasonable cost for audition. If it works as well as I hope, I will make it again with 1/4" steel plate to mount drivers, with 18mm Baltic birch laminated in front for damping. Their different resonances will cancel each other to make a really dead but still relatively inexpensive baffle. But no CNC until I hear it first. I was gonna do two layers of home depot birch (shit ply) laminated together, but I think I can do it end grain to add a lot of stiffness against the driver motion. I did that on the speaker stands, it came out pretty good.
One thing I will need to think about is the weight of the base. This wood is light. The bass drivers have a large moment and will rock the whole speaker. I will try weights, Maybe that will be good enough but i may have to screw it down to the sub floor. The steel version will have steel base and back support, so it will be pretty heavy. Add lead to taste. I do have some real baltic birch, I am tempted to use that now, but I think the light stuff on edge will be stuff enough with bracing. We'll see! I'm assuming I will throw this one in the garbagio eventually, so rather not chuck the BB.
Rich - I'm way impressed and far beyond just a little envious! :thumb:
We all wanna be 'just-like-Richidoo' :rofl:
Rich:
I am excited about your O.B. Speaker Project and cannot wait to hear them. I have talked to many folks that have converted to O.B. Speakers and not one of them would go back to a box type speaker. I considered the O.B. Route seriously last year but decided I needed more audio knowledge and time to pursue that route.
Congratulations on your choice of designs and good luck as the project proceeds toward completion.
Ken
Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing it go. Nothing done yesterday, except a lot of research (between kids sports) on PC XOs. Back on it today.
The offset OB will sound great as long as you can tame the woofs. This is what Scott ended up doing but in the end, has 2 outboard subs and just the Lowther in the offset OB. Makes some sweet music with only a couple of watts. You do need an external active xover but this also gives you a TON of control.
Bryan
Thanks Bry. I hope my woofs are tame, being designed for dipole from the begining, and with enough power and DSP they should behave. You are right about active crossover, especially the digital type like DEQX, AudioLense, Acourate. I'm looking at the software crossovers for budget reasons, and to be able to use external DACs. I finally found some free XO software plugins that will work inside Foobar's plugin DSP stack. Foobar is very powerful platform if you use plugins.
What I am trying to figure out is if foobar can only play stored files, or if it can also play streams, like internet radio and line in from the sound card? Anybody know?
Thanks
Rich
Quote from: richidoo on September 11, 2010, 10:34:16 AM
It is also time-aligned within .25".
Gee, open baffles, time alignment this starting to sound almost like the Dahlquist DQ-10s.
Back to the Future. :D
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:EwVHXzTHa8MKXM:http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h255/kflippo/IMG_1477.jpg&t=1)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=674)
(http://www.nolaspeakers.com/reviews/StereoMojo.com/Viper1A-May2008/images/dq10.jpg)
Just like with jokes, there's no new ideas in audio, just refinements and updates to old ones. (of course the DQ-10s had a sealed woofer enclosure so the weren't completely OB.)
Jon Dahlquist was a visionary thinker whose ideas have become the cornerstone of many modern loudspeaker designs. If I am not mistaken he was the first speaker designer to talk about time alignment (or at least the first one to incorporate it into a commercially produced product.) He also introduced the concept that time alignment is not necessarily a physical alignment of the drives them selves. The sound from each drive emanates from a virtual point of origin (not unlike the focal point of a lens), that could be in front of or behind the physical driver and that the virtual point of origin can move based on the electrical characteristics of the circuits before the drive (i.e the crossover network). And according to Dahlquist it is those virtual points, not the physical drivers themselves that need to be aligned. This explains why so many people who tried to upgrade their DQ-10s with "better" drivers or crossover parts ended up losing that DQ-10 magic.
As for getting some more weight into at least the prototype, The base looks like it could be hollow, can you fill it with sand?
Sounds like you are going down an interesting road with lots of potential. May the force be with you.
Edit 12/28/10 to remove picture from blacklisted domain. Sorry!
Edit 12/29/10 replaced picture with clean gallery version. :D
Wow, those things look cool.... Thanks Tom. I'd heard about them, but never seen those before. Very interesting! Did you ever hear them play? Not much is new in physics, just the methods evolve.
Base is hollow, so sand or lead. Probably screws for now.
I was able to transfer the ink from the printed plan to the wood template board today. For some reason I was procrastinating that, never done it before. But now it's done, so we're back to making sawdust. aa
Tomorrow I'll get the baffles cut and laminated together, and hopefully all the rest of the parts cut at least.
So if the bottom is hollow would it be possible to put a piece of plywood across it to close it in so you could fill it with sand and provide some ballast? It's hard to tell from the limited set of drawings in your posts.
As far as DQ-10s go they are the speakers that got me started into the high end nervosa. I think I posted the story about how I bought them on the drive home from my honeymoon. If not let me know and will fill you in. They imaged like mad but were limited by the driver technology available in the mid 70s. Anyway, they were my main system speakers for about 4 years only to be upended by the Thiel 3.5s. I did not realize it at the time but with his Coherent Source designs Jim Thiel really took Dahlquists theories to the next level. While Jim talked about speakers that were both time and phase aligned, I really think that his concept of phase alignment was nothing more than another way of describing Dahlquist's virtual focal point ideas. And of course doing it with much more advanced drivers and cabinet design. I just bought the Thiels because I liked them bast after auditioning many different speakers and it was not until some time later until i made the connection between the two design theories and it all of a sudden made sense why I was drawn to them.They were a speaker that was way ahead of its time. I recently had the opportunity to listen to a set and 35 years later while they are not up to today's state of the art. they can still compete with a lot of what is being sold today. :thumb:
Two of the biggest criticisms of the DQ-10 was that they needed a lot of power to drive properly, which they did and they sounded kind of hard in the upper registers. Well looking back I think the second was caused by the first. The designed did suck in a lot of power. Needed at least 200 wpc to make them sing. I heard a big difference when I moved up from a Hafler 220 to a Hafler 500. But I think a lot of the hardness people complained about was due to the sound of the high power SS amps from the early 70s. There really were no big tube amps back then so you were limited to high power SS like Dynaco and Phase Linear which weren't the smoothest sounding electronics in the first place. Upgrading the Hafler 500 to a Moscode 600 amp really smoothed them out. I probably would have kept them except I got into a big argument with their service department over re-coning the woofers. I had a friend who did his woofers and the new ones sounded really good. So I called the Dahlquist service Dept (which was located about 15 minutes from my house and inquired about betting mine done. They told me there was a 6 week wait for service. I told them that my speakers were currently working and I was doing this for upgrade purposes. I didn't want to be without sound for 6 weeks so could I just make an appointment now ad drop them off in 6 weeks when it was my turn. They said absolutely not, the 6 week clock would not start running until they had the speakers in their shop. Well at that point I figured I don't have to do them now, but the foam was approaching the end of it's life and when i did need to get it done I would be without sound for 6-8 weeks. So I decided to sell them while they were still in working condition (took me all of one day) and buy myself a new pair of speakers. That one bad encounter turned me off t the whole company (I never thought back then that there were several alternatives to getting them done at the factory). Not long after that Jon Dahlquist was in a very bad car accident and while he was in a coma for quite a few weeks his kids sold the company out from under him and from then on Dahlquist went the way of JBL and many other brands where the name was just a trademark on a product made by some mass market manufacturer. :(
Quote from: tmazz on September 12, 2010, 09:24:40 PM
So if the bottom is hollow would it be possible to put a piece of plywood across it to close it in so you could fill it with sand and provide some ballast? It's hard to tell from the limited set of drawings in your posts.
Yes, it will have a floor on the bottom box which could be filled with sand.
Thanks for the story Tom. This hobby has such a rich history.
I believe FooBar can play streams. I don't use it any more so not 100% sure.
The woofers themselves will likely be fine. It's the back wave close to the Fostex and the vibration of the baffle I'd be worried about.
Scott is using an old Pionner active xover from the 70's and it's extremely flexible. Certainly not the level of a 2496 BUT it's all analog so no A/D D/A steps involved.
Bryan
Thanks Bryan.
EDIT: btw, I was trying to get mfsoa's Linn Jazz stream to play on Sonos, couldn't get it (yet). WMP wouldn't even open it (.pls file) So I tried foobar.... :thumb:
I got my pro sound card drivers updated, so now I have 8 channel output from the computer. It sounds very good. Presonus makes some nice stuff. This is the Firepod, now named FP10 (http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=3). It is firewire to my laptop, then I'm running new foobar v1.1 with ASIO4ALL v2. It sounds nice. The mids are thick and dense and the highs give me a strong sinus resonance. :thumb: The Firepod sound card has it's own ASIO driver but I haven't compared it to ASIO4ALL. Some PS mods and some JPS wiring and it might make a great source. It has SPDIF input and output too so I can still use the Buffalo if I want to. It has internal clock -specs claim it attenuates jitter by 60dB. So 1nS jitter on the SPDIF input gives 1pS at the SPDIF output. Kinda like RichardS' Genesis jitter lens. This thing was sitting in the closet all the time while the Altmann DAC was struggling to deal with Sonos' high jitter. :duh
I brought it over to Carl's a couple times to scan his speakers and room, but it has flaked out on me using this Vista laptop. So I found a new driver is out now for XP/Vista/Win7, it seems to be a lot better. Hopefully it will work even in Carl's room now.
I also found some nice free plugins for foobar. This digital crossover (http://xover.sourceforge.net/) works, and seems to sound OK playing just a highpass filter >20Hz. I can dial in any freq I want, and any order. We'll see how it sounds in a real crossover. Another called frequency divider looks interesting, but all the documents are in Japanese, same developer as the foo_xover.
There is also a convolver for foobar (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Foobar2000:Components/Impulse_Response_Convolver_(foo_convolve)) which can apply impulse response convolution to music. DRC (http://drc-fir.sourceforge.net/doc/drc.html) creates the impulse files. These are all free.
I am still trying to find a line input plugin for foobar so I can play FM radio and LPs through the DSP stack. There was once a "line-in" plugin for older foobar versions, but apparently it has not been ported to the new - yet. There are plenty of options for purchase. One I found for $50 Console (http://console.jp/en/), the other $95 Bidule (http://www.plogue.com/?page_id=56). These will let me patch the sound card input to crossover and convolver plugins, but then I can't use the foobar plugins (I think) Time will tell. There are commercial versions of all this, which are all high bit processing througout, and streamlined procedures, but not free. I want to see how it works and sounds first.
Wood is being cut for the speakers. Ellipses are drawn on all the baffle boards, cutting and routing scheduled for tomorrow if the creek don't rise.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=536)
These are rough cut with jigsaw. I will trim to the template with flush bit tomorrow. Hopefully cut the driver holes too.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=535)
Christina (8yo) is finally taller than my speakers. Too bad I spent it all on speakers, nothin left for new pants. :duh
Nice pictures. Did you plan to have the wood look like angels wings on Christina?
Rob S.
hehe That's good! No, I didn't notice that until now. She is my little angel.
I really want to get these playing by this weekend, even if they're not totally finished. I'm just dying to hear them!! and the foobar crossover. Tomorrow will be a busy day. Lots to "glue..."
Today I routed the outer edges flush to the template and routed all the driver holes (12.) It's starting to look like something....
Tomorrow I'll route some miters on the driver holes, laminate the baffle boards together. Then some final router edging and sanding, drill screw holes and it's on to the base and rear support.
Sand is 1600kg/m^3, Quicrete is 2050kg/m^3. So I'll probably use that. The ballast weight should be as far to the rear of the base box (away from the baffle) as possible to increase moment of inertia and better resist rocking from woofers, which rotates around the bottom of the baffle. A single 3" deck screw would be so much easier... (shhhhhhh)
Sorry, no pictures tonight. :(
Rich
I need to build an open baffle next time, it's much easier than spending a few weeks on a pair of cabinets. :D
Quote from: Face on September 17, 2010, 02:01:58 PM
I need to build an open baffle next time, it's much easier than spending a few weeks on a pair of cabinets. :D
That depends on the OB. My V1s took me about 3 months, of course you figure family, work and whatever else comes up and you spend a lot of time not working on them but in the end they were a consderably more involved build than any box speakers I have built.
Sorry for the OT Rich, now back t your regularly scheduled thread.
Best,
Ed
Not off topic at all. DIY speakers do take time, no economies of scale. But I hope it will be worth it. Cutting everything by hand really takes a lot of time to get it perfect.
Today I spent almost the whole day cutting parts. That Rob S. is a real slave driver. :D But without his constant bugging me for progress reports and pics, I would not be this far along. Thanks Rob! I made some good progress, the heat wasn't too bad today. Only one more day of cutting for the rear brace parts which are simple. I want to glue tonight but I'm beat. That's how I make mistakes.
Before I cleaned up the driveway looked like it had snowed sawdust. :) Thanks to my son Henry for help re-cutting some parts that I flubbed, and for help cleaning up.
Some pictures:
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=539)
Two baffles ready for laminating together.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=538)
Close up. All edges are rounded with 1/8" bit, gives a finished look.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=537)
Stack of parts for the speaker base boxes.
Lots of sports taxi tomorrow, but I have the morning and late afternoon. Gotta keep chugging. I want to hear these playing this weekend.
Looking great Rich! I am curious how you came up with your pattern for the ellipse, it looks perfect! Did you use the 2 focii (?) method?
Best,
Ed
Thanks Ed!
Check out the OP, I explain how I made the ellipse. :thumb: It is pretty close to perfect. "Close enough for jazz." :rofl:
Quote from: richidoo on September 17, 2010, 07:22:27 PM
Thanks Ed!
Check out the OP, I explain how I made the ellipse. :thumb: It is pretty close to perfect. "Close enough for jazz." :rofl:
Sorry about that Rich, I thought I had already read the beginning of this thread, obviously I hadn't.
BTW, I have been using 4 of the AE IB15s in an Infinite Baffle alignment for a number of years now in my HT, they have been outstanding drivers.
Best of luck with your project, you are off to a great start.
Ed
Quote from: ebag4 on September 17, 2010, 08:59:38 PM
I have been using 4 of the AE IB15s in an Infinite Baffle alignment for a number of years now in my HT, they have been outstanding drivers.
Thanks Ed. That's good to know. They sure look good, I can't wait to hear them.
Quote from: richidoo on September 16, 2010, 06:03:14 PM
Sand is 1600kg/m^3, Quicrete is 2050kg/m^3. So I'll probably use that.
I hope you plan to mix the Quicrete and pour it into the base, because powdered Quicrete will find a way to leak out of the base and get all over everything, thereby incurring the wrath of the other half. :evil:
And as someone who dam near killed himself moving a pair of Thiel CS-6s into the basement, I can attest first hand to the density of pored cement. :duh
If I want to keep it dry I'll just use sand. But I'll caulk the inside joints prior to doing either.
Did the Thiels have concrete in them?
I just finished building one of the base boxes, it is extremely light weight wood. The concrete pavers I was going to use (wife's idea after I already cut the wood parts) are a smidge too tall to fit two stacked. I extended the base so less weight will be needed to stabilize the rocking motion. It's also bigger, to hold more weight if needed.
The baffles are laminated together, and I have one more base box to build, then make the rear brace. I laid down the baffle between two chairs and set the drivers in. It looks really good. Tom, make sure the obstetrician is on call. aa
Quote from: richidoo on September 20, 2010, 09:53:05 AM
Tom, make sure the obstetrician is on call.
Paging Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard. :lmc:
Quote from: richidoo on September 20, 2010, 09:53:05 AM
Did the Thiels have concrete in them?
The CS6 drivers are mounted on a 2-inch thick steel reinforced concrete acoustic baffle. The Baffle weighs 66 pounds (the completed speakers weigh in at 175 each) and is manufactured by injection molding a mixture of concrete and fiberglass. Steel reinforcement provides the required tensile strength, so that the baffle will not be damaged during shipping.
http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/PDF_files/PDF_reviews/CS6R_pdf/6R_stereoplay.pdf
Today the baffles got their driver mounting holes drilled, spike holes drilled in bases, and baffles attached to base. With any luck I can make some noise later tonight. I mean musical noise, not sander noise... Still need rear braces and paint, but I can't wait anymore for a sample of the sound.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=541)
Coming together...
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=540)
Feastrex D5nf Driver
Quote from: richidoo on September 21, 2010, 02:00:44 PM
Today the baffles got their driver mounting holes drilled, spike holes drilled in bases, and baffles attached to base. With any luck I can make some noise later tonight. I mean musical noise, not sander noise... Still need rear braces and paint, but I can't wait anymore for a sample of the sound.
Wow, Those bases are a lot deeper than I had pictured them in my mind. But I guess they have to be in order to stabilize a baffle of that height. The picture just caught me a little off guard. What kind of finish are you planning on using?
I hope you don't read this until morning because you are now lost in the beuatiful sounds of your new creation. :drool:
Edit: Hey I just noticed, this is my millennium post! :thumb:
Congrats Tom! You hit one 1 kilopost
False alarm - I did not get them playing today. I watch DWTS with my daughter instead.
I extended the bases bigger than the drawing so I can make sure I have enough stability to evaluate the low frequency transient performance. I also made it flat top instead of slanted, to make more volume to hold more concrete. It is not as pretty as the original design, but that will be steel, and much heavier and stiffer.
I have been thinking a lot about finish. I'm not quite sure what I will do yet, but I have to decide quickly. The initial listening will help me decide. ;)
Hi Rich,
Your build looks really cool :thumb:
I'm really curious your impressions on OB bass (depth and quality). I've held off on doing it myself. I've heard it done fairly well and not-so-well.
Hi Scott, I'll write about the sound as I work through the setup and tuning. My expectations revolve around everyone that I have spoken to who has heard the Granada's bass has praised it, sometimes profusely. These are the same drivers, so it should be in the same universe, once EQ and correction are applied. I'm more concerned whether the Feastrex can keep up with the bass in volume and clarity while playing big symphony passages and stuff like that.
I will have the speakers playing today, but I also will attend my oldest son's baseball game tonight. He is just starting to play catcher and he loves it.
Rich
Looks fantastic Rich!
I'll have to have Mike fill me in on their sound after your gathering.
Thanks BarrY!!
I got all the drivers hooked up. I played music from the feastrex earlier today, sounds nice but wimpy in the OB. Tonight I got the bass drivers connected series / parallel to net 8ohms at the amp. They have two 8ohm coils on each driver. then I ran an impedance sweep to make sure. 8ohms under 300Hz, plus a resonance hump, but everything is as expected.
For kicks I played a few tracks woofers only, since the manufacturer claims they can play up very high, and are frequently crossed over to ribbon tweeters without a midrange. Sure enough, they play really high, it's very easy to listen to the song, and ignore the lack of high freqs. But the upper mids are a little weird spatially, as expected from the beaming and large paper cones aren't exactly pistonic at high freqs, but the drivers do make those freqs, no doubt, thanks to the extremely low inductance of the motors. The huge overlap between the mid and bass will allow experimenting with shallower crossover slopes, maybe even 2nd order passive crossover sometime.
Sol's i60 had plenty of power to play loud without bass boost. The bass does play low, I could hear some very low warble tones from stereophile test disk, and BISL's Bromberg CD sounded good - with NO correction or EQ. Another design characteristic of these drivers is the high Qts, allowing low frequency efficiency without boost. But the bass will need some boosting with EQ to get the bottom really slammin and flat to 30Hz. We'll see how the i60 does then, but I am confident. At CES these woofers played strong (with correction) on Pass XA30.5.
Tomorrow I'll get them playing together with the foobar digital crossover. I'm certainly looking forward to that with great anticipation!!!! Still much left to do. Rear brace, base weight, spikes, paint, crossover, placement.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=542)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=544)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=543)
Wow! :thumb:
Loooking Gooood! :thumb:
Let the music begin! :drool:
They live! I struggled for 30 minutes this morning trying to make the Feastrex driver make sound. It is using the SPDIF output on my soundcard, for the first time since I owned it. Of course I thought it was defect. Turns out the amp wasn't plugged in. :duh
Kids have commandeered them 1st night. Baby Baby Baby!!
The bass is infinite speed, violent transients, plenty of slam. Seems to be hardly using any power. Volume setting for dance level loudness is less than normal listening level for the ushers, using same amp.
The crossover sounds great, no hint of phase or volume issues at the crossover. The overall cleanness and low distortion is very seductive. The music is totally see through, but it is also solid and bass especially is very penetrating.
But the foobar chokes once in a while sounding like a stuttering CDP. the foobar process peaks at 4% CPU using 10MB, even with max 16 second buffer and running crossover and EQ plugins. I am running it off my laptop via firewire, with virus protect and everything running. There are occasional dropouts, because it's not configured for audio. Just a rough setup for now.
The bass drivers are definitely outplaying the Feastrex driver now for a couple reasons. First is the midrange acoustic echo that screws up every high performance speaker in this room. The small diy single driver speakers never push the room to the point of it fighting back, but these OBs do. Hopefully the acoustic treatments will cure that. EQ will help to smooth out the driver. But right now, it has some wizzer zing, which eq helps a lot, but it needs tweaking time. Actually I keep forgetting I'm listening to Justin Bieber so the zing is there on purpose. It will soon be bedtime when the monsters come out to play.
The bass in my room is always pretty good, no matter what speaker. But the Quads were definitely less room mode problems than the Ushers, maybe for same reason as the mids, less modal excitement, but in any case, the bass sounds excellent now.
I played a few CDs today, the audiophile quality recordings sound incredible. The biggest impression I have is the incredible dynamics. Psycho effects on pop records really get your head spinning. Everything is more intense than I have ever heard, intense like MBL radialstrahler. Hopefully it can be dialed back a little, I'm not sure I can take this all the time. Audio Crack! I'm still using the current source chip amp on the Feastrex, once I get things settled I'll put the 300Bs in, I think that will have a nice effect ;)
The i60 is more than enough power for the bass. It really slams, and the detail is unbelievable. BISLs Brian Bromberg CD "Wood" was incredible, I think that was a the second CD I played after NYP Grieg's Peer Gynt Suites which happen to be on top of the pile. The old recordings sound fine, but they don't have the dynamics to take full advantage of the speakers. I guess that means they are audiophile speakers. The tail wags the dog. Music picked for max adrenaline squeeze. haha That's OK, I can use some of that for a while. But being totally controlled by PC, it can be adjusted with compression to chill out or kill it. :thumb: I will endeavor to chill it just a bit for rock and jazz and my 24/7 Pandora feeds, but the extreme dynamic mode will be awesome on symphonies.
Today I drew the template for the rear brace. Tomorrow I will cut the parts and hopefully glue them on which will finish the construction. But even playing loud dance music, there is very little vibration on the baffle. If I flick it like a spring from the top, it will oscillate 2" pp at 3Hz. With steel and wood composite baffle there would be no need for rear brace. Actually I think there is no need for weight in the base either. They just don't vibrate. Maybe because it's OB? Doesn't make sense, but it's good.
So far, even with this basic setup, and no fine tuning of the EQ or crossover they are better insome ways than any other speakers I have had before. I can recommend the AE Dipole series of drivers without reservation. There is a lot more refinement to be found in the mids and treble. Hopefully the Feastrex can travel the whole distance with me and keep up with the AEs. Time will tell. It's easy to back off, but it's impossible to add dynamics and detail.
My wife told me a few times today how great they sound. The clarity and dynamics are obviously better than what we're used to. I don't think she ever volunteered to say that unsolicited about speakers before. Although I know she loved the Legacys.
Rich
Yirka over at Hydrogenaudio Forum pointed me to an input plugin for foobar2000 v1.1. I'll try it out tomorrow. aa psyche! That will allow analog sources to come in on the line input of my soundcard and I can make the whole computer thing a standalone DSP stuck into an otherwise all analog system with preamp and analog sources. I hope it works.
Almost done Rich..... 8)
Rich,
If you slide the 300Bs in, I think you'll find you lose much of that 'zing' you are hearing with the chip amp.
Thats pretty interesting about the quality of the bass. One of these days I may have give OB bass a try. Meanwhile my Altec 15's in a box will have to do. They pack a pretty good wallop :thumb:
A friend of mine built similar OB with Feastrex and the big Altecs, he is very happy with it. They are a very nice driver.
I think you're right about the 300Bs Scott.
I was thinking about why the baffles don't vibrate. I think it is just the mass of the drivers that is lowering the resonance of the baffle system down very low. Each driver has a very heavy motor. Also, since they are unsupported, there is no solid edge to for vibes to bounce off of. The frames of the drivers go out to the edge of the baffle, which is essentially a big aluminum brace, padded by thick rubber driver mounting gaskets. I think it's so cool how the drivers move visibly at high volume, while the baffle is so still. :thumb: It still needs a brace on the back to prevent stress on the bottom glue joint. The whole baffle vibrates freely at 3Hz, rocking 2" with a finger pull.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your description Rich. When you lose the box, you just free up the sound. There's no fighting pressure, no trying to eek out extension from a driver that can't do it without backpressure, ports, etc. It's just diaphragms moving air with no restrictions - free to react instantly to the musical signal and only it's own mass to overcome.
Panels do the same but usually with limitations on output and bass extension.
Next thing you know, we'll have you building an IB sub!
Bryan
I would love to hear those with your 300B's.
Superb work too!
D
Looking real good there Professor.
charles
Thanks Den, and thanks Charles.
These image really nicely too. On good recordings the speakers are not even there. Voices are solid in the center. That means very low phase distortion.
Quote from: richidoo on September 24, 2010, 09:12:02 AM
Thanks Den, and thanks Charles.
These image really nicely too. On good recordings the speakers are not even there. Voices are solid in the center. That means very low phase distortion.
.......and good time alignment. :thumb:
I got the foobar input to work so I can listen to analog sources now. But then I found out that my soundcard's SPDIF input is hosed. Hopefully it can be fixed, but I've tried everything I can think of. Tech support is taking a looong time to respond.
I ran a series of 2 second, 1/3 octave tones, 20-20kHz with the sound meter. SPL is all over the place. So acoustics and EQ adjustments are needed.
I need a dedicated computer for it too. I have a spare Pentium 3 but it is loud.
I love open baffle............. and CD players.
Lin
PS
Rich, the Peerless drivers and a pair of NHT 1259s are collecting dust while I try to decide :-k between really BIG sealed boxes or small H baffles and this http://www.audiocontrol.com/product.aspx?d_id=16463&p_id=171119&tab_id=35&print=1
Hi Lin!
Better collecting dust at your house than mine. :D
That crossover looks cool... and simple... :thumb:
SPDIF input is fixed. Connecting to it requires a special ritual to acquire sync. :roll: They could have detailed the ritual in the manual, instead of hidden deep in a FAQ. The good thing is the Firepod supposedly knocks down SOnos' 200ps jitter to <1pS on the spdif out.
For a dedicated computer, what about those mini ATX or mini ITX PCs with dual core atoms? Intel has a fanless model:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121399
I already have a 1394 PCI card. With 4gig Atom should be plenty to run the crossover and effects in Win7.
Quote from: richidoo on September 24, 2010, 08:03:24 PM
That crossover looks cool... and simple... :thumb:
Rich,
The Richter Scale has been a tried and true member of the Audio Control line-up for 25 maybe even 30 years now. While It has been around for ages I can't really comment on how it holds up in the high end arena because Audio Control was really more of a mass market than a specialty label. The better end of the mass market spectrum, but mass market none the less.
Down low the audiophileness is far less important, if it gets the freq and phase right it should sound good. The 6 band EQ is nice too. How much does it cost?
My Feastrex needs to cross up near 200Hz, can your B200 go down to 125Hz?
Quote from: richidoo on September 25, 2010, 05:24:53 AM
Down low the audiophileness is far less important, if it gets the freq and phase right it should sound good. The 6 band EQ is nice too. How much does it cost?
My Feastrex needs to cross up near 200Hz, can your B200 go down to 125Hz?
Didn't see anything on the used listings. (Audiogon sold on this week , but I can't see what it went for.)
Audio Classics shows is showing a new piece for $399
http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=RICHTER-SCALE&nav=cat
Quote from: richidoo on September 25, 2010, 05:24:53 AM
My Feastrex needs to cross up near 200Hz, can your B200 go down to 125Hz?
No, but with 2,3, or 4 more B200s used as helper woofers no problem.
Lin
That would be very cool... 8)
Quote from: opnly bafld on September 25, 2010, 11:50:50 AM
Quote from: richidoo on September 25, 2010, 05:24:53 AM
My Feastrex needs to cross up near 200Hz, can your B200 go down to 125Hz?
No, but with 2,3, or 4 more B200s used as helper woofers no problem.
Lin
Hey Lin, something just occured to me. The drivers in your speakers are monted to a single board with nothing else around them making you "opnly bafld". Mine on the otherhand are mounted in a sealed box and enclosed on all sides. Does that make me completely baffled? :lol:
Hi Rich,
I just wandered to this thread... was wondering if you have found someone to CNC your steel plate yet. If not, you could check out (both places may be pricey as they are more artistic):
McConnell Studios (http://www.mcconnellstudios.com/) From recollection they are close to Tryon and 70
Vega Metals (http://www.vegametals.com/) Downtown Durham - I know they can CNC 4x8' sheets of steel
Also... are you planning on treating the steel? My wife had built a steel handrail for our old house (alas, it remains there) and over time it would develop light surface rust even though she used some poly to seal it up. If you need a place that will powder coat, I can get a name of a place that's pretty cheap off of 70 by the Airport in Raleigh. My wife did a large gate door at the old house, and they charged something like $60 (this was a while ago mind you)... it was rather reasonable and it held up very well through several summers in the outdoors.
Dave
Hi Dave, thanks for the links. I have used a small prototype shop in Dunn that Carl introduced to me, he uses EDM. Another full service company in Raleigh uses laser and can do the powder in house. There is a big raw metal distributor near my house but they don't cut anything other than shear to size. There is a techshop in Durham that I was thinking of joining, so that I could do the work myself. They have CNC plasma and welders as well as shopbot for the wood parts. Membership is $1000 a year, and I could do a lot of things there, but that's a lot of time commitment. So I'm kinda floating in the middle yet. So your links are much appreciated, I will definitely check them out. The contract powder coating especially sounds good, then I can get them cut anywhere and still get powder coating. I still need to work with the speaker concept before I can decide if it's a keeper. Thanks Dave!
Rich
Quote from: tmazz on September 25, 2010, 08:00:36 PM
Hey Lin, something just occured to me. The drivers in your speakers are monted to a single board with nothing else around them making you "opnly bafld". Mine on the otherhand are mounted in a sealed box and enclosed on all sides. Does that make me completely baffled? :lol:
Doesn't "completely baffled" describe "normal people" trying to understand our "audio nervosa"?
Lin
Rich:
I have followed your speaker project with great interest. Please keep the comments coming concerning how they sound and congratulations on the success so far.
Ken
I've been working on the speakers the last couple days, they are finished now, except for finishing. My wife being a former architect likes the raw wood look, so it may stay that way, not sure yet. I think I'll chalk this one up to dev prototype and move onto the next. Base doesn't need to be so long, because there is no vibration to speak of. That will shorten the rear braces too. Doesn't need weight in the base, but making it out of steel will make it a lot heavier anyway. This depot ply is extremely lightweight.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=545)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=547)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=546)
The other thing that has been sucking up the time is setting up the software crossover. I made a preliminary impulse wav which contains the linear phase crossovers, EQ and room correction using a demo version of AudioLense XO (http://www.juicehifi.com/index.html). Then trying to play it in foo_convolve tonight I learned that plugin can't do multi channel output. :duh So now I'm looking at the many other convolution engines available. A little each day...
But the AudioLense is a really cool program. Using the free demo version, anyone with computer in the audio chain can use it to linearize your speakers, apply EQ and room correction with foobar as DSP host. Carl, (and Shane? Steve?) since you already play all your music through foobar, this is a natural for you to correct your lumpy bass, add tube warmth, coliseum effects, there is no limit to what you can do with FIR, even crossovers, group delay correction, anything. Processing in foobar is 32 bit precision, so there is no affect on the SQ. I'll be happy to help anyone try it out, measuring with Earthworks mic and generating convolution filters, setting up foobar.
Hopefully I'll be able to get the other convolution engines working too, maybe in a linux black box. I found some info on how to make my Firepod work in Linux. Presonus never wrote drivers for Linux, but Jack drivers supposedly work fine.
Oh man! They are beautiful!
Thanks for the pics.
Ken
Rich,
They look awesome :thumb:
You've got me thinking about some of the software based eq'ing. I may give it a try. I really don't need anything on the top side (Lowther) but the Altecs could use a smidge. Where I sit, I've got a bit of a bump at about 70hz and just a bit below 40hz. The 40 doesn't bother me a bit. The 70 isn't too bad either but it might be nice to notch it out.
Then again, when I want to rock my brains out, giving a bit of boost would be nice too :mrgreen:
When you go to rebuild them, rather than steel, 3/4 acrylic would be really cool. I love the way mine look. Being see-through they are extremely unobtrusive looking in the room.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action-mgallery;sa=media;id=548)
hmmmm, I can't figure out how to post a picture again :duh
Here's the link
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=media;id=548
OOOOOOHH Mighty pretty Scott! Your listening room is gorgeous. I'm not surprised based on your articles, you are an artist. ;)
Acrylic is a fairly non resonant material too. Good material for speakers.
Extremely nice Rich.
Do they satisfy what the Ushers did not?
D
Thanks Den.. Yes, this has been an extremely satisfying project so far, and I have not even heard them in full glory yet. The software is the heart and is not yet in place. I am learning how to do the software part as I build. I hit a dead end with foobar, but now I am testing 3 different audio processing host programs which are much more flexible and powerful and should allow me to easily do what I have planned. Hopefully that will be done by the weekend. I can taste it, I want to hear the full potential! Soundwise, they are already showing hints of great performance even using the limited foobar approach. Fully dialed in I think they will hold their own against any comers. But more importantly I hope they will allow me to hear my favorite music in the way I have always imagined it could be. That's all that I care about. BEETHOVEN SYMPHONIES IN MY LIVING ROOM :-({|=
I've got these plugin hosts downloaded for tryout tomorrow.
Reaper (http://reaper.fm/) recommended by mojave from AC, a PC audio whiz
Console (http://console.jp/en/), simple but not developed anymore
VSTHost (http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm) - Free! and looks good
Bidule (http://www.plogue.com/?page_id=56)
These run as standalone hosts, or some act as a VST plugin to use in media player like JRiver, etc. I think I only need the standalone to run on the computer, and use the Sonos as controller for network music, feeding the soundcard digital input by SPDIF. If I want to use a media player app in the computer the host program can route that into the FIR engine. Reaper looks cool, but might be overkill, but it's cheap and fast.
These will allow me to route analog line input from soundcard to the crossover and correction effects in the computer. None of the media players can do that AND run the plugins I need also.
This is the plugin I plan to use for my crossover, EQ and room correction:
http://convolver.sourceforge.net/
Note that it can be used in slimserver too, as convolverpipe.
Rich
A lot of experimenting with convolver the last 2 days. A long, sometimes frustrating, story, but I finally got it to work in an audio host called Bidule. But I am getting pops and clicks every 1 second, like an old scratched LP. Same thing in another host called Console. No pops in JRiver using same VST plugin, but I can't route channels correctly there so I only get the bass. I may have to give up the external DAC and use 4 analog channels out of my soundcard. Then I can use JRiver as VST host, but won't be able to play external analog sources. No vinyl. :(
Between the clicks I was able to hear the sound of the speakers with convoluted EQ and crossovers and room correction. It is very nice. 8)
Hey, Rich...want me to bring some extra speakers...just kidding :rofl:! Or, maybe just in case :?.
These will be working even if my freeware computer crossover is still lame, because Rob S. is bringing his DEQX which can do everything I'm trying to do and more. That's what you get when you pay - actual results! But maybe yes... I'll PM you.
Presonus discontinued my soundcard today. :duh
Maybe that's why the tech abruptly closed my service request ticket last week without sending latest firmware. Whew, good riddance! But at least they made a new driver good up to Win7 before pulling the plug. It still works and sounds good...
Rich, you are an extremely talented individual. Your e-Lips speakers really do look fantastic.
Well done sir, well done.
Hey thanks Barry!!
I got rid of the clicks. The Convolver filter has some settings than need to be tuned to the CPU. I increased "Partitions" (whatever that means) from the lowest (0) to the highest (16) and the clicks were gone. It reduces lag time (whatever that is), so I think my CPU was too fast for 0, and was tripping over itself. I don't know, but it's gone. Phew! Now to fine tune the sound. And it does need fine tuning. There is a paperish midrange that badly needs to be adjusted. With Digital EQ it should be easy. I'm glad to finally have them running to the point where tweaking can begin.
The scan that I am using now was taken with the mic near the leather couch which is very reflective. Lots of acoustic treatments going up this week which will help too.
I found another VST host, which I like the best so far. I was worth suffering the clicks and incorrectly blaming the hosts in order to search for another host until I found this one. I think it is new because not many posts on their support forum. Anyway, it works well, easy to configure, and lots of very cool tools for monitoring and manipulating, even recording audio on the computer.
http://www.audiomulch.com/
To eliminate floor bounce while measuring, I place the mic approximately 3' away from the speaker with a bass trap elevated 6" off the floor between them.
Thanks. This software AudioLense measures the room and speaker together at the same time. But DEQX does measure drivers separately at close range before measuring the room.
Finally got some time to work on the software settings.
I wasn't really happy with the full tilt automatic treatment of "fix everything, make it perfect." It was tight and without soul, like some high feedback SS amps. I moved up the crossover point from 300Hz to 600Hz, with 2 octave width. So the crossover is fairly shallow between 300 and 1200 and infinite outside that. I moved it up to keep the Feastrex totally out of its resonance and the impedance nice and flat at 14ohms. I was surprised that there was much difference in the overall sound. Then I cut off the room correction above 400Hz. Wow!
The visegrip was off the neck of the Feastrex and it began to do it's magical thing again. Correction forces all the problems out of the driver, making a perfectly flat frequency response. But it also sucks out the life. But the correction on the bottom flattens out the bass nicely, and allows boost to make the frequency response follow the target curve perfectly. I may lower the correction cutoff even further, down below the crossover. I think I tried that already and it screwed up the simulated FR.
I did put some boost on the bass, like -6dB@ 30Hz, -20dB @20Hz to bring it closer to flat. It sounds really nice, really detailed and musical. But I think it can take more, so I'll add in a little more boost tomorrow. Treble is rolling off at around 12kHz. Plenty enough to enjoy the music, but with the correction removed up top the automatic boost to the target line is not in effect. Since they beam at high freqs I can experiment with aiming them more straight on. They are designed to shoot over the head because they are too hot on axis, but shooting over the head should make straight on listening be just about right.
I ended up choosing a cool little program called AudioMulch for hosting the crossover plugin, and routing the digital signals. It is very easy to use, doesn't crash, and great help files. The developer pointed me to a cool program called Virtual Audio Cable, also recommended by mojave on AC, which will allow me to send sound from any media player or acoustic analyzer into AudioMulch for processing. Mulch is much more flexible than trying to run the processing inside a media player as a plugin. Audiomulch lets me use analog ins, digital in, or file... and now with VAC I can use a media player also. I can connect several analog sources to the soundcard (4 analog and one digital inputs) and use the mixer in Audiomulch to switch them in and out. I can easily record any internet stream or analog input to disk. CPU pushes about 3% peak. On some of the other VST hosts 9% was the norm.
The best part of the day was hearing it finally start to sound good. I was worried it might not come alive before the meet. Now I think I can get there with a little more tweaking.
OK, done licking my wounds and catching up on sleep after the 2AM g2g. We finally got the thing to work using Robs DEQX. But none of the PC based crossovers worked at crunchtime. Reliability is important. Even with DEQX, the Feastrex in OB seems to be a little unhinged. It doesn't sound that bad runnign direct from the amp, so I wonder what the DEQX is trying to make it do that it doesn't want to do. Clarinets sounded like kazoo, I do not exagerate. Everytime i try to play this driver at G2G it turns to Mr Hyde.
Next morning I stuck it back in the sealed box and it behaved much better, but still not a hifi speaker. It will always be colored with paper and wizzer.
Anyway, next chapter for ELIps does not include Feastrex. It will be a 3 way, using AE Speakers new Dipole 6 mids which are designed to match their Dipole 12s that I am using in the bass. They cost 1/25th that of my Feastrex cheapest model. I am in decision process to sell the Feastrex.
While Rob was here he was upgrading his own speakers' tweeters and left the discards with me for Elips 2. Scan D3004.6600 illuminator soft domes. The new drivers should fit on the baffle just fine. Although routing new holes will be interesting now that the baffle is glued to base.
I am leaving the PC crossover behind for now. It might work OK for some, but I need it to be easier and more reliable. I like the one box preamp concept of the DEQX, but I want it cheaper and simpler. Although I am pretty excited to hear Rob's all dialed in this winter. So I'm looking at Rane RPM26z processor. Analog and digital inputs and 6 outputs to make a 3 way. Control it over the net, all kinds of filters, processing and even 31 band EQ with linear phase. Rane has a great reputation for good sound, and I am pretty sure that's what Granada is using for crossover.
Someone on DIYAudio posted that its opamps are generic JRC 4580/5532s, and the DAC is AKM4356
http://stereophile.com/news/10573/
But all Rane Speaker management processors use the same DAC and DSP engines, and they are installed in some pretty heavy situations, like recording studio monitors, film preview screening studios, etc. Anybody with experience with Rane products?
Thanks
Rich
QuoteAnyway, next chapter for ELIps does not include Feastrex. It will be a 3 way, using AE Speakers new Dipole 6 mids which are designed to match their Dipole 12s that I am using in the bass.
Rich,
When you add the midrange drivers will this require you to make a larger baffle?
Ken
No they will all fit on this one. If it sounds good then I will make the metal baffle a little bigger for appearance. If I lowered the woofers I wouldn't need to enlarge it, but I like the whole ellipse shape on the front, so the woofers need to be higher to fit on it.
It looks like you're taking a few steps in the right direction.
Those are excellent tweeters, very low distortion, flat response, and can be crossed pretty low. I've used them in one application so far and will be using them again in my current build.
As for that mid, this may change your mind: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=37341 These would match your woofers: http://madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1595 These would also make an excellent OB mid, but have fun recessing it: http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=243
I have no experience with Rane, but have a feeling you'll eventually upgrade to the DEQX. :D
That's awesome Face, thank you!!! I'm also considering Scan Illuminator and Jantzen JA8008, and looking ahead to other projects I want to build.
I have the schematic for the Rane. There are some good mod options there.
Rich,
Have you thought about trying a conventional active crossover, something like the Pass Labs B-5? Nelson designed this specifically for OBs. It has bass boost and Q controls (though limited) and adjustable crossover points. Not sure what the cost on the B-5 is but I'm thinking around $1200. Jon Ver Halen of Lowther America uses them in a true OB configuration. I've listened to them a couple of times and is was pretty nice sounding. I use the Pass B-5 as a simple XO with no bass boost or Q alteration and it's quite good. Not sure if you are going to RMAF this year but Jon will be running his in his room if you wanted to look at the design.
If you are looking at a three way design, Sony made the TA-4300 back in the 70's which gave you reasonable crossover points plus the ability to boost specific lower frequencies by up to 8db. I used to run one of those and it wasn't a bad sounding unit at all. It's pretty hard to find nowadays though.
Over the years I've listened to most of the DSPs and have always gone back to analog XOs. Dunno, I guess my ears are just sensitive to the digital conversions. Doing OB bass is a different animal though.
Thanks Scott, good advice. I have heard Jon's demo at RMAF, with B1/F5. It was very lovely playing jazz singers but overall just too relaxed for me. I got the feastrex because it had more bite than the Lowther. I built a B1, it was too laid back. I tried to mod it but couldn't make it come alive. So I guess I wrote off the1stWatt stuff because it is all the same JFet buffer. Maybe that has changed, or maybe the commercial units sound different from his B1 kit. At this point I don't know if the baby feastrex driver can be made to play low distortion on loud classical music, or whether only the expensive Feastrex drivers are capable of that, or if it's just so much smoke. If it can't handle it, then I need to go three way with low distortion drivers, which rules out Pass stuff. But I'll have another look, thanks for letting me know that B5 is finally available.
I have tried every possible speaker type for the Feastrex, and gotten only moderately good results. With all the praise heaped on the Granada I chose to try one last time with that OB recipe. Maybe analog crossover is what it needs, maybe the DSP is messing it up. It does sound a lot better by itself just connected to the amp. But Granada uses DSP speaker management, made by Rane I believe. I wonder if the praise heaped on Granada is just "sounds good" hype playing compressed Diana Krall which sounds good on everything, instead of a critical evaluation with symphonic music, which is always the baby Feastrex' and every full range driver's weak point.
You're right, OB does require a lot of adjustments to make a flat, extended FR. I have heard Orion a few times, and it sounds dead from all the feedback in the 20+ opamps needed to accomplish all the necessary corrections. I have used a lot of DSP plugins in recording and mastering audio, usually they work very well. So all this taken together DSP still seems like the right path for me at this point.
I listened to the Granada last year at RMAF and commented that it sounds quite good on classical but I couldn't tell how much correction was going on in the DSP since the distributor wouldn't tell me. I also mentioned the helper tweeter on the back panel that nobody seems to catch. Unfortunately I never got to hear them with any 'progressive' music. They may well have fallen apart.
The B-5 I mentioned is Nelsons crossover for OBs. I've got (or had) the F4 and didn't have enough gain out my pre to get it to work so I went back to my 300Bs.
You mentioned more bite from your Feastex. I wish you were closer so you could hear my PM2As, Altec bass cabinets and analog XO. They sound a fair amount different than the PM5A field coils Jon was running. Ever travel through St Louis? I think you'd find it a pretty interesting listen.
I think field coils were brand new and not played in the demo the last time I was there in 08. Can't remember for sure. It was the first year of his curved maple baffle.
(http://www.lowther-america.com/page2/files/rmaf2009.jpg)
I know squat about Lowthers. I read some from Jon's site.
http://www.lowther-america.com/
Looks like a very wide variety of drivers for different uses. I would love to hear your system.
I use 300Bs on the feastrex too. It's a nice synergy on the high impedance taps with no feedback. Mine are PP so I have 24W for the driver's lowish 90dB.
The B5 can cross as high as 200Hz. Most people cross my driver at 225-250. It has a resonance at 110 that takes until 300Hz to come back down to earth.
http://www.firstwatt.com/b5.html
I found a VST plugin called CrossOver to run in AudioMulch. :yay2:
http://www.rs-met.com/
Slope is adjustable in 12dB increments from 12dB to 96dB. Frequency is infinitely adjustable. It can do up to 4 bands and it's free. It is an IIR filter that behaves like a analog filter, summing flat in magnitude, but not linear phase like an FIR filter does (audiolense, acourate, DEQX.) I'll set up the ELips tonite and try it out. Feastrex sound so wonderful in a sealed box, I would love to get a way working with them. Maybe a box sub under the boxes will be the wtg.
The advantage of this plugin is that the whole thing can run inside AudioMulch, which is proving to be very reliable and easy to use. No more adjusting the filter in AudioLense, calculating a new filter, then importing the filter to Mulch before I can hear it. It takes about 3 minites to hear any adjustment. With VST plugins I can tweak parameters in real time. It can host as many plugins as my processor can handle. At the meet, Sol was able to use a Stereo parametric EQ plugin included with AudioMulch to make the Feastrex sound really nice, using only two bands of EQ. I can cascade more EQs so he can have as many bands as he wants. But I will probably try another free plugin from Robin Schmidt called Easy-Q which lets you draw the shape of the response you want, with any number of Parametric filters.
I got outbid on an original version of the Rane RPM26z processor on Ebay auction. I was hoping I would get it for $110, but I got bidbarded at the end, it went for $310. I'm kinda glad because I'm much more excited about the new plugins and staying with a high end DAC. The Rane may have needed mods or repairs as it led a tough life.
But first I need to get the ASIO drivers working again.
Now that's much better... Not fine tuned yet, but simple LR4@250 with no EQ at all, and same amps and wires we used at the G2G and it sounds like music. No more kazoo. Sounds like it did at first when I used foobar's simple crossover plugin which was also LR4, no convolution. The convolution seems to be the tough part to get right, for me anyway. Now I can adjust volumes, EQ etc.
I spent some time today twiddling the digital crossover settings. I was using Audiomulch host, with CrossOver VST plugin. I tried a lot of different frequencies, slopes and calibrated the volumes of both amps. I couldn't get the crossover region to sound clean. It was always cardboardish and thick. So I listened to the highs alone, then the bass, but muting the channels. I noticed that the bass tone was really screwed up, really flabby and distorted. I removed a bass driver from each side, so it was only one bass one each side, 4ohms, but it didn't change much, just sounded smaller. So either the plugin is shit, or the Audiomulch processing is not high end quality, or both. Booooo! But hey, at least it worked... ;)
When I was done I switched back to the current amp powering just the Feastrex, full range. Huge, beautiful tone, even a sense of bass. So the processing was screwing up the Feastrex signal too. I wish I could get it to sound just like this, but with a little bass reinforcement. I'll get there...
Next I will fire up my Behringer DCX2496 with Didden mods, just to see if I can get a clean integration between the drivers. Although the input/output of the DCX is not great, the processing is known to be good and Jan's output is well designed if a little stuffy from 4562 opamps. But they are in sockets so I could roll in some others.
Sol has suggested I ditch the digital processing altogether and make analog line level filters with opamp buffers. That's what I'll try next, but I don't want to spend any more money on this until I hear if the drivers can play nicely. So far the crossovers I've tried have not allowed me to hear that.
I might be able to roll off the Feastrex with 1st order to protect them from over excursion, then put in 3rd order reversed phase subs with the active buffer. The opamps stuffiness won't be audible at low freq. Now I'm curious what that Rane processor would have sounded like. They are famous for top notch audio quality. I'll keep it on the radar.
I got the DCX2496 hooked up, and it does integrate the two bands well, better than any of the PC based plugins I have tried so far. That's welcome news for the speaker design. A high quality active speaker crossover like Rane or dbx should work well, as is used on the Granada.
I have scoured the internet for more VST plugin crossovers. I found a half dozen which either sounded lousy in the bass, probably all using the same math, or didn't run at all. I have Sonar, I think it comes with a basket of VSTs, but I'm getting tired of playing that game.
I still have not tried Acourate, another PC based convolution program. It's worth a try even though it's competitor AudioLense seems to have not worked out for me, but many people like it.
So next up is analog line level crossovers to gain simplicity and purity of tone. Woofers need 4th order slope to stay out of feastrex' way, plus baffle step correction, so the filters will need buffering, no passives here. The Feastrexes sound best unfiltered. But that won't match the phase shift of LR4 on the bass, so I'm not sure how that would work. Any advice on that? I'll bring down the HT sub later to try it. Maybe the Feastrex will sound OK in LR4 highpass if I do it analog instead of digital. Sol suggested LM833 opamps.
The 300B amps sound delicious in single ended mode direct to the Feastrexes. I made a larger single driver baffle for them before starting this project. Gotta give that a try, but that's a different project.
Quote from: richidoo on October 26, 2010, 11:09:22 AM
I got the DCX2496 hooked up, and it does integrate the two bands well, better than any of the PC based plugins I have tried so far. That's welcome news for the speaker design. A high quality active speaker crossover like Rane or dbx should work well, as is used on the Granada.
I have scoured the internet for more VST plugin crossovers. I found a half dozen which either sounded lousy in the bass, probably all using the same math, or didn't run at all. I have Sonar, I think it comes with a basket of VSTs, but I'm getting tired of playing that game.
I still have not tried Acourate, another PC based convolution program. It's worth a try even though it's competitor AudioLense seems to have not worked out for me, but many people like it.
So next up is analog line level crossovers to gain simplicity and purity of tone. Woofers need 4th order slope to stay out of feastrex' way, plus baffle step correction, so the filters will need buffering, no passives here. The Feastrexes sound best unfiltered. But that won't match the phase shift of LR4 on the bass, so I'm not sure how that would work. Any advice on that? I'll bring down the HT sub later to try it. Maybe the Feastrex will sound OK in LR4 highpass if I do it analog instead of digital. Sol suggested LM833 opamps.
The 300B amps sound delicious in single ended mode direct to the Feastrexes. I made a larger single driver baffle for them before starting this project. Gotta give that a try, but that's a different project.
Oh Rich, this is Nervosa
2 . You are not even done with this project before you are laying out plans for the next one. :shock:
My kind of guy. :thumb:
QuoteOh Rich, this is Nervosa2 . You are not even done with this project before you are laying out plans for the next one. Shocked
My kind of guy. Thumbs Up
Rich seems to know his final destination and I admire/envy his abilities to design/build speakers to try to reach the end of his journey!
Ken
Quote from: Bigfish8 on October 26, 2010, 04:51:04 PM
QuoteOh Rich, this is Nervosa2 . You are not even done with this project before you are laying out plans for the next one. Shocked
My kind of guy. Thumbs Up
Rich seems to know his final destination and I admire/envy his abilities to design/build speakers to try to reach the end of his journey!
Ken
+1 :mrgreen:
The journey never ends. What fun would that be? :lol: Thanks for the kudos guys.
You don't know the half of it... I spent all night reading about Lenehan Audio ML-1 tiny monitors. I could sell all the crap I own now, melt it down into one simple but high end music making appliance and be done with the tweaking for a while. Maybe take up a different hobby, like pruning perennials, interior painting, 100 other honeydoos, etc.
The other single driver OBs were actually cut and half finished when I decided I needed woofers. Now I think I need these woofers like a hole in my head... Who said speaker design was gonna be easy? Not on my budget it's not... But fun it is, as long as I keep it in perspective - it's supposed to be fun. But I am getting tired of my best listening being in my head (on earbuds.) I'm learning a lot about what works and what doesn't, that's the price of DIY. A pro designer already knows what to do. I just found a review tonight about Granada's debut 2009 RMAF having trouble with the woofers overpowering the room, disconnecting half of them and the digital crossover not working on the first day. Now that's funny. :cry:
As much as I am NOT an Usher fan anymore, it was a refreshing treat to hear the Usher Be718 DMD / Moscode / JPS / Equitech synergy at my G2G to remind me of the sound of low distortion accuracy. But the Feastrex have a special something that is hard to describe and hard to bottle for visitors. I have a couple more tricks to pull, but the hat is getting toward empty and I'm looking for paydirt.
I know the feeling of working hard to accomplish nothing more than understanding what I've learned. The journey (or in this case, problem-solving) is the thrill. But when 1 project seems never ending it sure does put a damper on things. I'm sure everyone here can relate.
I hope it either sounds good or you get back into listening to good tunes any way you can.
Thanks Carl! Carl and I talked on the phone today, bitched out all our problems to each other and felt all better. :D Ahhhhh....
So inspired, I ordered the parts for active analog line level crossovers using the well regarded National LM833 opamp, Dale resistors and Dayton 1% .1uF caps. There's 20 caps to make the LR4 hi/lo filters in stereo, so I want to hear it with cheap parts before getting spendy. I also got some of Sol's fav secret giant killer caps. I have a spare Twisted Pear bipolar power supply, so I'll just stuff it all inside my DAC to eliminate new ICs and power transformer. Then I can use the digital volume control to control system volume, and adjust the integrated bass amp separately.
This is the circuit I am using.
(http://sound.westhost.com/p09_fig1a.gif)
http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm
Crossing frequency is between 100-225Hz using 100nF (0.1uF) caps, and various value resistors 5k-10k.
I downloaded and started reading up on Acourate. It is poorly documented, but there are video tutorials that I think I can follow step by step. Apparently I can make plain jane crossover filters with no EQ or DRC using Acourate. It would be nice to hear convoluted crossovers with no psyche-benders mixed in. See if it's clear and clean. It's still LR4, but linear phase. Then they have the infinite slope filters too, but I don't trust those yet. The only problem is how to make the 4 filter files joined together into one file that can be loaded into convolver.
Oh, I forgot to report that I added my nice little music sub that I bought from Brian Bunge on AN into the mix.
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=293.0
It's not quite as fast as the OB woofers, but it does flesh out the bottom and give some weight. I put it up on speaker stands which speeded it up a lot compared to sitting on the floor. I'm tweeking the controls to fine tune it. Sounds good, using speaker level inputs from the current source amp.
While I'm waiting for analog filters, I figured I would try to figure out why AudioLense failed so badly at the G2G, and maybe try out Acourate, another PC based filter generator for convolver.
I spent some time setting up AudioLense again tonight, ran the measurements, generated filters, targets convolutions, etc. I saved it and played it, all 4 outputs are playing full range sound, no crossovers at all. I could have sworn that it was filtering (albeit no very well) last month when I was first using it. Apparently not. Turns out that I was imagining all the "changes" I was making.
When saving the final filters a warning message pops up saying:
"The dummy filters can be used to verify that the playback path, including filtering is working.
The filters attenuates the signal by approx 10 dB, so you know it's working when the sound level is lower than usual.
You should be aware that the dummy filters has full bandwidth, and tweeters may be damaged by high sound presure level.
You can get the real filters by purchasing an Audiolense licence at www.juicehifi.com"
I read that before, and interpreted it that the demo filters are full function to show the power of audiolense but are attenuated too much for practical use. But I learned tonight that the dummy filters really are dummies, just like me. They are just passthrough, with no filtering whatsoever. No crossovers, no EQ, no room correction. I told the developer that his warning message needs to be more clear to say that the filters do NOTHING except passthrough to see if you are capable of setting up all the computer audio crap but give no indication whether the processing is worth a damn. (in so many words...)
So I will try Acourate to see if its demo actually processes the audio. Its documentation is horrible, so almost every step that needs clarification requires a question posted on the user forum. Ugh. The only instruction is tutorial videos which are too simple. But supposedly it sounds good, just like AudioLense. :roll:
Just another day in DIYland
You would think that the developer would make the demo a fully functioning version that is time limited so that you would set it up, get to like it and then want to buy it when the demo period expired. If all of the filters are nonfunctional, just what is it that they are trying to demo? :roll:
You can't make this stuff up. :duh
Ease of use, I guess, that's the biggest benefit compared to his competitor Acourate.
AudioLense produces filter files that can't be timed out because they are used in a different program, so he has to handicap the filters somehow, but making them completely lame seems overkill. Maybe insert loud background hiss or 120Hz hum that can be listened to for eval, but intolerable in the long run. I understand his predicament, but a clearer message, even on the download page or during setup would be helpful. I should have been more skeptical, then my pessimistic attitude would interpret his warning correctly. No biggie, on to the next thing. I would just buy it except he wants 390EU for the crossover version, and I would like to hear it before investing. Only in audio can you charge like that, but it's a very limited audience so that's what it has to cost to exist. I will spend some time with the free version "DRC," whose filters run on Linux only, I think. I was hoping to avoid Linux, but it's something I need to learn eventually. Rather just listen to music if you know what I mean.
a) it would seem to me that if they put a time limited license on the main program you could use the filters as intended and when the eval period was over the whole program would simply shut itself down. But having never seen the program myself there could be something that I just don't understand. :-k
b) I know what you mean about Linux. I have had a copy of Red Hat and a tutorial program on my shelf for ages andevery weekend I say to myself, "next weekend will be the one when I sit down and learn Linux." :duh
I know what you mean about Linux. I'm just intimidated to start learning a new thing. I think that is the definitition of OLD! boooo OK now I have to do it. The newest linux installs like Ubuntu are perfectly easy and run really well for standard jobs. Now getting them to work with audio drivers and signal processing with homemade apps is another story. But people seem to be having success with it so it's not impossible. It's just down to how much time you're willing to devote.
The AudioLense program is like a Paint program. You use it to create an impulse.wav file. Then the impulse file is used in a separate open source DSP program (convolver) as a pattern with which the audio stream is manipulated. So making AudioLense 30 day expiration would still allow someone to get busy and finish his creation of impulse files before it expires, then he doesn't really need AudioLense anymore. Yet another reason it shouldn't cost $500, but that's free market and he's been doing it a while, answering lots of support questions from compududs like me.
He chose to handicap the filters by making them flat impulse with -10dB attenuation. At first i thought the attenuation was the handicap, because it increased noise floor if you turn up the preamp or increases digital noise if you crank the 10dB back in digitally. But the -10dB is just so you can tell the difference between the original stream and the convoluted output, to make sure it is actually working.
I like calling it convoluted.
I told my wife about the dummy filters. That they don't let you hear whether the result is any good but only serve to let you know whether you are able to do the setup of the computer audio, convolution engine, multichannel sound card, etc. She said "then they are aptly named, they filter out the dummies. " haha :rofl:
After going through the same routine with Acourate, the competitor to AudioLense, I was told it too is not able to produce real filters to evaluate the sonic performance of the software. The filters it produces proprietary and only for use within Acourate for demonstrating how it works, not for actually using in a convolution engine. At least that only took 3 days.
There is a open source filter maker called DRC. It is quite arcane. Not sure I'm up for that, but I might try it to see how it goes.
http://drc-fir.sourceforge.net/
http://www.duffroomcorrection.com/wiki/Main_Page
I also found another commercial vendor making correction software, in Germany, called Dirac. They look very promising, and expensive. I think they are stand alone black boxes like DEQX, but they say they make software too.
http://www.dirac.se/
Meanwhile the parts for the analog filters have shipped. Maybe hear it this time next week with any luck.
Rich
Quote from: richidoo on October 30, 2010, 09:38:26 AM
Meanwhile the parts for the analog filters have shipped. Maybe hear it this time next week with any luck.
Rich
We can only hope..... [-o<
Yes, definitely looking forward to that moment. (get the fire extinguisher ready)
Parts express (Fedex) and digikey (postal) won the shipping race - both arrived today (2 days!) Mouser with UPS is by far the most expensive and slowest, but the best online ordering and customer service. :)
I started looking at DRC, it doesn't look too bad, but I don't see how to create crossover filters. I think I can create them in RoomEQWiz, not sure.
I found another FIR crossover plugin, this one for foobar, from Japan. It has provision for baffle step correction built right in. Not tried it yet though.
http://www.aedio.co.jp/download/index_e.html
Cool website, these guys are passionate about their audio. Translate it from Japanese with google.
http://www.aedio.co.jp/
I contacted Dirac, they do have some products coming out soon which will be more suited to audiophiles. The products available now using their processing algorithms are for the film industry, or high end auto mfgs. They use mixed phase filters, the best of both worlds, IIR and FIR. I think that means linear phase when it's important in the bass, and minimal phase when it's important in the uppers, and fading between them gracefully. There are some white papers on their site, I've not read them yet.
Meantime, while I wait for UPS to bring my parts, I have the subwoofer set up, tweeked and sounding very good. I played a couple symphonies this morning. It sounds good. Plays loud with good tone, except for reflections. Great imaging and tone! I love these Feastrex drivers when they are happy. Listening to Bruch Violin Concerto 3 right now. This is the first time I have ever heard them play symphonic music well enough to listen without major distraction. Should be better with OB bass drivers.
I am running the feastrex drivers full range in open baffle at high volumes, they are hanging in there. The builder told me it's hard to hurt them as long as you back off when you hear bottoming. I only heard that once today playing Bromberg "Wood" a little too loud. But the symphonies were fine even at too high a volume. With a little rolloff and bass driver support, the Feastrex should be able to run with no crossover, or maybe a 1st order cap.
Just this moment my wife hands me a box from Mouser. Time to get crankin again. Crossovers, acoustic panels, and painting the stuff that's already installed.
Rich
I got the new foobar plugin installed and running. I had to paste the entire userguide into google translate to be able to read it from Japanese in google warped english. That was good for some good laughs.
I was surprised at how good it sounds! The sound quality of foobar DSP seems better than AudioMulch, at least in the bass. This filter has the analog outputs hard coded into the plugin, and foobar has no multichannel routing, so I am forced to us the analog outputs of my soundcard, even on the Feastrex. The feastrex is not quite as see through as with the Buffalo, but very good. A slight bit of dynamic compression is audible, but that might be the current chip amp because I have heard it before. This is the best that the speakers have sounded yet.
The filters in this crossover are FIR, with linear phase throughout the entire bandwidth, so there is no phase error and no group delay at all.
Now i just have to adjust the settings. There are 3 settings. The crossover frequency, is the -6dB crossing freq. The Taps adjusts the size of the filter. Taps are the number of samples in the impulse, so it's the length of the math pattern used to effect the filters. This also adjusts the slope somehow that I don't understand by manipulating the math of the filter. The length of the tap controls the slope of the filter. The filters are not symmetric, but larger taps make them more symmetric. The final setting is the baffle step correction, which is actually 3 settings, freq to begin attenuation, freq to end attenuation and attenuation amplitude. It superimposes a baffle step shelving filter on top of the crossover filters to cut the upper freqs, effectively boosting the lower freqs to compensate for the cancellation. Every speaker has this, but open baffles are especially audible because it goes up higher in freq due to the pressure cancellations at the edge of the open baffle.
Probably need RTA or FR sweep to set the baffle step compensation accurately, especially with 2 different size drivers crossing down low.
In other FIR filters I have been using a long filter length is necessary to insure accuracy of the bass signal. This filter uses relatively very short filters, even as short as 500taps! The impulses used in the other convolver filters are 130000 taps, about 1.5 seconds long at 44.1kHz. So I am worried that the slight woofiness of the bass is due to the short filters. But I don't know enough about the math to know for sure if that's possible in this app where the filters are very simple, pure math, no recorded impulse, just made by the setup buttons. The programmers seem like they are smart enough to not make that error. But even with a very short impulse of only 4001 taps, there were some dropouts occasionally, while there was less when the filter was even shorter. I just don't understand what it's doing. That's OK.
I started with 125 Hz, which sounded best on the Behringer with Linkwitz-Riley 4th order. But on the steeper slopes allowed by FIR this was too chesty, fuzzing up the midrange. The bass drivers sounded too slow. Lowering to 50Hz cleaned things up, but lost some beef. I have been listening to the Feastrex drivers full range all week with the subwoofer at hig volumes so I'm not worried about 50Hz cross being too low. There is pretty steep slope below that so they are safe. I moved it up to 75Hz which seemed about right. The woofer drops out completely by 200Hz, while the midrange slopes off much more gradually, looks like 4th order slope. That was 9pm, time for election TV! I will continue to experiment with crossing freq and slopes to fine tune it.
But even with the low crossing, the bass is not clean enough for me yet. If it rises above 150 it clouds the Feastrex. Even playing by itself, it is not as etched as it should be. These drivers have extremely low inductance, extremely powerful motors and easy suspension, with Qts=.7. So it should have the ability to sound very clear. I am using a good amp which gave one of the clearest bass sounds ever on the Ushers, but I think the long runs of RCA zipcord to the woofers, and also for the wiring hookups to the 4 separate coils, then connected to the drivers with spring clips might raise impedance so much that the damping is shot to hell. I've got some better speaker hookup wire coming, and will solder everything together and use posts and SC3 SCs to the drivers. If it doesn't sound good then, I can try notching the resonant peak of the drivers, before looking for other drivers. But I think there will be a big improvement with the wires and connections. These drivers are supposed to rock. We'll see, I have high standards after the Eton carbon fiber hexacone drivers in the Ushers. They cost about the same, but Etons are not designed for dipole.
All the parts for the analog filters are here, but I was too busy to work on it last two days. I got a lot of different size resistors for experimenting with crossover points, but it requires 40 solder joints to change.
While building my last pair of speakers I was using cheap zip cord(tinned M-Cable?) to test the woofer and it didn't sound right either. I then switched to something better, and even with with spring clips holding everything bass tightened up immediately. I also found using cheap brass binding posts and brass nanners(monoprice) as adapters degraded sound quality more than spring clips.
Thanks Face, that's good to know that you found the spring clips to be OK. That jibes with my experience too. This morning I ran a single pair of drivers in stereo, with their dual coils zipcorded in parallel, but using 5ga JPS speaker wire for the main run, the bass really came to life. Detailed and punchy like it should be. Looks like the 15 feet length of 14ga zip was the killer.
This stuff: http://www.amazon.com/Rca-Speaker-Wire-100-Gauge/dp/B002HPNDDW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1288887152&sr=8-2
These are the posts used on the drivers:
(http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_standard/091-1156_s.jpg)
The voice coil braid solders to the end of a threaded rod or tube that screws into the bottom of the spring post.
Analog filters are halfway built. It will be LW 4th order at 112Hz.
I really like the look and layout of this speaker. When do we get to see the full, finalized layout with finish on the design.
Maybe I missed it with 8 pages to read through but what will be your final crossover design. Active or passive?
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=546)
Hi Bill, sorry I missed your post. I haven't worked on it for a few weeks.
I don't know what the final crossover will be. I am anticipating active now, I have some more experiments lined up for that. But I would like to try speaker level filters too if the time and funds permit. It's a simple design with lots of linear overlap 100-3000 so it should be fairly easy, maybe series 1st order with. But in all the digital active XOs I have tried the steeper filters usually sound cleaner. Which means neither of these is an ultra low distortion driver, but they both sound really good alone and together with steep filters. Maybe with the right Fc and good parts it will sound better than the digital simulations.
Today I finished the active analog crossover. It is the design of Rod Elliott. Phase coherent throughout the filter band. LR4 at 112Hz, using LM833 opamps, Dale resistors and Vishay 1813 caps. Twisted Pear bipolar series supply, and built right into the Buffalo32 DAC enclosure.
It was a little bright and congested on the feastrex' at first, but the caps and opamps are brand new, and I still have zipcord to the Feastrex. I will replace that with some decent SC tonite. Just in the time I started writing this the center image has improved drastically, dynamics starting to wake up too. Here's hoping. The active analog filter is a lot less hassle than a PC xo. The only price is ease of configurability, and minimum phase filters. The best passive speakers in the world are all minphase, it's not that big a sacrifice. You only notice when compared to minphase in lower freqs. High freqs should be minphase anyway.
I listened to a single pair of woofers for a while this month. They are really incredible drivers. I was easily able to enjoy music listening on them, they play clean and detailed to 5k. They sound so good in the midrange I was thinking maybe the Feastrex can cut in at 2k instead of 100Hz. Expensive tweeters :lol: There is a little sharpness at the very top of the woofers as expected from paper cone, but the bass performance is amazing. No color, great texture and extension, even in OB. With baffle step corrected +3dB <380Hz it should be quite impressive. The drivers improved a lot with more time on them.
As I mentioned, I really like the visuals of these speakers. Maybe they need some satin black paint ;)
As far as the crossover frequency, I would stay below the midrange frequencies so you have a single point source for the critical midrange frequencies. I wouldn't go higher than say 500Hz-600Hz. Preferably below 250Hz as you are planning. Nothing better than a single driver handling the midrange frequencies in an OB design IMHO. I am wondering if the narrower baffle is limiting the low end extension.
I really wish I had more time to play around with the boxes of drivers and other speaker "parts" that have collected at the shop over the past 15 years :duh
My wife suggested black, but she was thinking of how pretty my Gemme Katanas looked, which is buffed lacquer and far beyond my skill. She also suggested hammertone bronze :shock: I keep picturing candy apple red. The intention is to make them from steel with veneered wood baffle top layer. But these will probably get the Glidden treatment before the steel comes.
Thanks for mentioning the baffle step, I think you're right about that. I had only considered the bass drivers for baffle step correction. But the Feastrex also needs it. That explains why it sounds thin in the mid bass now. In previous experiments I cured that by raising xo freq so that the bigger drivers handled the mid bass, but they're not as clean. Maybe now with better wire and break in, they can play higher cleaner. The step should be about 400Hz for the feastrex where baffle is thinner, and about 375 for the woofers. I don't have any step correction yet. The woofers have plenty of extension with their high Q of 0.7 and low resonance. I'm only using one per side now and it keeps up with the Feastrex easily. Two will allow very low with some boost. All in good time. Again, thanks for the tip about the baffle. I think the next crossover circuit will be a fair bit more complicated.
You could cross at the baffle step to keep things simple.
Thanks Face. I was just reading Martin King's paper on baffle step compensation
http://www.quarter-wave.com/General/BSC_Sizing.pdf
and that was one of his recommended solutions.
Using MK's formula for determining the step freq, I get 285Hz, which should work OK as a xo frequency too, as long as woofers can keep up with the feastrex that high.
John Murphy's formula concurs with 285Hz.
http://www.trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm
I don't know why I was thinking 380Hz.
The only thing bad about these speakers is how they sound listening from the side. We listen to music while cooking and eating dinner, and the kitchen and DR are in the bass null of the dipole. So it sounds pretty threadbare. But sitting in front of them is so different.
Today I upgraded the zipcord SCs going to the feastrex drivers to JPS, an awesome improvement needless to say. I still have a couple feet of zip in the dual woofer hookups, which will be replaced soon then all speaker wire will be JPS.
I padded down the input of the current source amp by 10dB so it is the right gain for my sources. Thanks to Sol for the pad design. Input impedance dropped from 56kOhms down to 14.5kOhms, no biggie.
I listened to the 112Hz active analog crossover for a few days. It was pretty good, but with no good way to compensate for baffle step, the thin upper bass was starting to annoy me. I was also starting to think about other crossover freqs and slopes, so I thought I would stick the Behringer DCX2496 back in so I can experiment. I programmed it with 285Hz Linkwitz Riley 24dB crossover, like Face suggested, since it's easy to hide baffle step correction at the crossover freq when using a passive crossover. But in the Behringer I made separate filters for baffle step compensation so I can adjust the crossover freq independent of the correction. I started with +3dB shelf with -6dB slope cornered at 285Hz for the woofers where the baffle is wider, and at 350Hz for the Feastrex to match its narrowest distance to the edge of the baffle. I eventually bumped the woofers up to 4dB and the feastrex to 3.5dB. Good balance now, no more mid bass hole. Thanks Bill, for getting me thinking about baffle step more rationally.
At 285Hz crossover frequency I was hearing some chestiness in vocals, so I started lowering the xo freq. I reread Jon Valin's blog on stereophile about Lotus Group's Granada at CES 2009, he said they were using 200Hz LR4 crossovers. So I went down to that, nice improvement, still a little chesty. Down to 150, almost there. 100Hz, too thin. 125Hz is sounding pretty good, and much cleaner than 285. Maybe it will change a little when I calibrate the gain levels of the amps. I am tempted to wonder if the Feastrex is faster than the AEs at that low freq, but I still have zip cord paralleling the coils together and I'm still only using one woofer per side. Adding the second woofer will increase accuracy by reducing displacement at the same volume. Maybe that will match Feastrex speed up into the 800Hz range where the woofers are finally becoming inaudible when the crossover is set to 200Hz (but I doubt it.) The other reason to have two woofers per side is to increase acoustic impedance to be able to play the very lowest notes, which will still require some boost to get down to 25Hz, due to cancellation effect of the open baffle. But the 2 drivers will be able to move enough air at 20Hz.The behringer is already down to only 30% processing power left but two more parametrics should be OK. The voice coils can only take 200W so we'll have to see how much it takes to make the low notes at volume. I don't need too much volume anyway.
One of the downers of the day is the Behringer is having dropouts. Not sure why. It was doing it last month too. It seems to get worse when the volume setting of the digital stream is louder, especially on compressed rock music which is floored all the time. It will work fine for 10 minutes, then start to hiccup again. When I hear it I usually pause the source then restart, sometimes it works, sometimes it hiccups right away again. Sometimes it screws up the filters or memory or something that changes the tone for a few seconds until it heals by itself. I suspect that it is the lousy electrical path that the spdif must travel inside the Behringer. mgalusha sent me a foot of coax cable and 75ohm terminating resistor a loooong time ago, to bypass the convoluted path and thin ribbon cables the signal takes inside the Behringer. Hopefully that will help. It maybe that it wants AES/EBU 5V signal instead of SPDIF .5V, but I never heard others using Didden mod mention any dropouts, so hopefully it is something simple. I'll drop Jan Didden an email too, always good to have an excuse to email with him. I also want to try swapping LM833 opamps for the LM4562 that came with output stage mod.
I increased the capacitor of the zobel filters on the Feastrex drivers. That will lower the driver impedance in the highest frequencies. With the current amp the impedance is critical for power output. The treble was still too hot for me before with 1.5uF, but 2uF sounds perfect, just a little laid back in the top.
At one point I felt that the top and bottom were not clicked together as one, so I moved the speakers back away from me by a foot, that seems to have helped a lot. Funny that my brain didn't like it at first, I was adjusted to the sound. After 10 minutes I liked it much better. Could be the driver delay was off, because the baffle angle is intended to align the woofers and mid when the speakers are 10 feet away. I think I had them too close. Hard to believe I can hear 1 mS delay at 125Hz though. More likely rear wave reflections were confusing the sound at the closer location. Whatever...
Altogether a constructive day, and I'm pleased with the way things sound now. But still more to go.
Rich
I thought the dropouts might be the Sonos, which is fairly high jitter. I swapped in the CDP and it seemed to fix it, but then it started again. It is different behavior, now, longer period of clean, with shorter periods of worse dropouts. So there is a connection between source and dropouts, so it could be jitter, or memory buffer or something. Hopefully the wire will fix it.
I increased the slope to 48dB/octave and increased the crossover freq to 150Hz. A little fuller sounding. 200Hz still sounds too thick.
Are you running any delay to compensate for the difference in acoustic centers?
Not yet. The tilt of the baffle aligns them within .25" if I sit at 10' away. That way I can use a passive crossover later. But I can adjust the delay if I want to with the Behringer. I'll have to test the impulses to fine tune it. I need to see a FR soon, so the impulse will come with it. Thanks Face
I just nabbed a Rane RPM 26z Multiprocessor on Ebay for a great price. :thumb: My kids will give it to me for Christmas and I will be more excited than them! :D
http://www.rane.com/rpm26z.html
This has more processing power, higher bit depth processing, and better processing algorithms than the Behringer. I can control it with a PC app called DragNet via Ethernet so I can tweak it from the sweet spot and save 24 presets. It uses the same 8 channel volume control chip as the Didden DCX mod, and can be controlled by external linear pot. I believe this is the same processor engine used in the Granada, if not the same Rane model.
I have the schematic so we'll check it out for upgrade opportunities. It is full of JRC 4580 opamps in the signal path, easy enough to upgrade those, or bypass with transformers or caps.
The Behringer DCX-2496 digital crossover has a known problem with the digital input receiver/SRC chip, Cirrus Logic CS8420. That's what's causing the dropouts. There are half dozen upgrade kits to fix it, but it'll cost about $120, giving a huge performance improvement along with the fix. My unit also needs a linear power supply upgrade, regulators and RCA output jacks to be ready for hifi prime time. It's money that I would never get back. I only have $500 in it so far, but at current prices it's $700. I think it will make a nice discounted launching point for a modder. Car audio guys are using them too.
I'll check out the Rane first before I list the DCX for $350. PM if interested.
The Rane is shipped, arriving Saturday. Not sure I can wait til Christmas to start using it. :?
The DCX crossover worked flawlessly for 8 hours today, not one dropout. I had some fun tuning the crossover, and trying a bunch of different configurations. I even listened to Beethoven 7th all the way through.
2nd order at 300Hz is sounding good. A little extra body from the big woofers feels good. A mild presence notch at 3800, Q=2, -1.2dB takes away the wizzer zing from trumpets and violins. I'll probably see more once I measure it.
I also tried a 1st order cross at various freqs. I was surprised that it sounded pretty good. With the wiring upgrade and passive parts it could be cool.
After getting used to the 2nd order for a while I went back to the 4th order and even 8th order, they were just too tight. Even in digital realm I don't prefer steep min phase filters. Steep linear filters don't bother me.
A couple hours later it started dropping out again. Rebooting it didn't help. So I shut it off. Maybe it is a morning person crossover.
Glad things are working (in the morning)... I also like the presentation of 2nd order crossovers.. Just more presence and coherence.
Sounds like you're getting your sound to develop into something you like.. congrats.
Thanks man! You're always such a positive and encouraging influence, I appreciate it.
The Rane has arrived, looks to be in good shape. Mrs Claus says I can't play with it until Christmas, but she goes back to work tomorrow, so I'll test it to make sure it is works... 8) It's used merchandise, after all.
But from reading the manual it appears to be infinitely more powerful and flexible than the Behringer.
The nice thing about the 2nd order crossover is that it wouldn't be too expensive to make a nice passive crossover with it. Usually the passives will sound better than the electronic anyway. Even 1st order sounds OK, at freqs from 200-1kHz, but I haven't been able to fine tune that yet.
I've also been thinking that a first order passive cross, at very low freq would be able to let the Feastrex sound its best with minimal influence from a filter, but still protect against overexcursion in the deep bass - while the shallow falling 1st filter on the bass would still be in phase with Feastrex, but the bass inductor size padding of feastrex can create baffle compensation and bass boost at lowest freqs. I'd need a steep rumble filter on the line level too, but a preamp can drive that so no added opamps needed, and small cap size of line level allows using good stuff. Sensitivity would suffer by the amount of bass boost desired. Biamping would solve that, but you have the option to use single amp, and the load would be extremely easy, and tube amps can make plenty of voltage.
Anyway, can't wait for you guys to hear it. But not until I am 100% satisfied. [-(
I did fire up the Rane yesterday to make sure it works, being used and all. I couldn't listen because it has euroblock connectors so I have to rig it for RCA before I can hear it. If it sounds good I'll modify it for RCA outputs. The software is really cool. I made a simple configuration for the E-Lips with a software switch between digital and analog inputs, a 15 band parametric EQ on each channel, the crossover, the output volume control, and output connections. The basic configuration can't be changed live, but the settings of each part can be changed live and stored under 24 presets. I think crossover slope and freq is just a setting, which will allow quick A/B comparisons. But no X! :shock:
Meantime, before Christmas when the Rane officially arrives I am still tinkering. The past few days I have been running the Feastrex driver solo, with no bass support. This has always been the most open and natural sound so far, especially with the 300Bs. The drivers' bass does roll off, but remains extremely clear. Even in OB, it is musical to listen to it by itself, especially with the current source amp which fills it out. So I had an idea to try my diy analog line filter on the bass drivers only, and let the Feastrex run free. It worked, and sounds surprisingly good. This is the high water, so far. I didn't try this before, because there is a lot of phase error, which I thought would be more audible. I can perceive a slight disconnect, but the bass is nicely supported now which is better. :) The phase error is no different than what you'd have by putting a stand alone sub with any separate speaker without a high pass filter on the bottom.
Anyway, based on how nice it sounds now, I have big hopes for the Rane.
Sol has some new improvements for the i60 so it "met its maker" today.
While here, Sol looked for the source of some mild hum (-70dB or so) from my 300B amps. No ground loops were found, and it's near dead silent when the amp's front panel input mute switch is activated. We tried swapping ICs to Belden 1505 which is well shielded, no difference, even shorted. So we think it might be the internal input wire routing past the power tranny in the narrow case on its way up front to the mute switch and input circuit. The input wire is Van den Hul shielded wire, but it might need even more shielding because it passes within 2 inches of the power transformer. It is 60Hz and 120Hz EMI that we hear. The input tubes with gain are in front, at least 12 inches from the power transformer, with output tran and PS caps between, so it should be quiet enough up front. Any ideas how to shield the input wire, or replace it with better shielded wire?
I took apart the crossover system, and connected the Buffalo32 direct to 300Bs with my old JPS UC ICs and straight to the Feastrex in OB with JPS SC3 wires. Parallel single ended mode with 5db NFB... Wow, that is music! There is enough midbass to enjoy the music, but nothing low. It's good enough til Santa gets here with my Rane!
OK, now we're cookin. The Rane is hooked up and adjusted to a basic working setup. With 4th order crossover, some baffle step it sounds pretty good. No other EQ yet. Low bass and upper mids still need EQ.
The funny thing is that I adjusted it to my own taste last night, which turned out to be very bass light. To make Carl's test tracks sound correct (Alice In Chains) I had to crank in 6dB more bass! :shock: Now the system sounds huge and very powerful. Solo cello sounds better too... thanks Carl!
The Feastrex is hangin in, but it needs EQ in the mid and upper mids to chill out a bit. It has always had that forward sound, which is very appealling on acoustic music at softer volumes. With EQ I think it will be fine. It can play loud.
The AE drivers are extremely good, the louder they play, the better they sound. stereofool's Audio Research VT100mk3 is powering them now, and they are slamming.
The Rane is infinitely adjustable. There is a lot of potential in fine tuning the whole system. The sound quality of it is OK. I can hear the 47uF electrolytic coupling caps in the signal path, and JRC 4580 opamps, but those can be upgraded pretty easily. As expected, it is not as refined and smooth as my DAC, but about as same as the modded Behringer - not too bad. I'll look for a way to get the digital directly from the processors.
But I'm glad to finally hear the speakers making full range music. I'll have to get out the mic and measurement software to fine tune it further.
Do you feel like a little kid again? Knowing what your present was and not being able to use it until after Christmas :rofl:
Sounds like you're just having way too much fun Rich.
Bryan
Yes, indeed! And not just that, but now that I've opened it I realize there is a learning curve that will take me all year to master, just like a video game or a 300 in 1 electronics kit. It's an educational toy!
Fun yes, but I found a new meaning for listening fatigue when trying to EQ the system. Every song needs a different mix to sound best. Finding a good one in the middle is tough! Analysis software is required to go further.
Made some good progress today EQing the crossover. I think the bass EQ is done. Lots of boost, low crossover freq. It sounds good on rock, symphonies and jazz combos. It's pretty dynamic, considering the Rane box is in the middle of it all.
The midrange is proving harder to fine tune. I think the ceiling reflections are making it harder than it really is. Same old room shouting problem I've always had.
The treble was pretty easy with a simple shelving filter.
I used RoomEQWiz today to measure the Feastrex driver up close. It definitely is a full range driver.
The speaker has plenty of power for fireworks. Symphonies can wail, heavy rock is no problem. But making it sound natural and smooth top to bottom while retaining the life and dynamics is harder. Refinement will take more time.
Looking at the speaker's in room response with REW didn't help much. Combing obscures the details from 500 on up. I can smooth it, but if I EQ it flat including the room echos it doesn't sound very good at all. I think it will help to get some good ears over hear who can help EQ the midrange. The Feastrex sounds great when played full range without any EQ or electronics. So I wonder if some of what I'm trying to fix is being caused by the fixing tool itself, the Rane. I'll listen to Feastrex by itself without Rane again tomorrow.
The Rane allows me to hear various crossover options, and a simple crossover does sound very good, so I think I can then move the design into a passive crossover which will get rid of the influence of the processor. Or at least an active analog line level crossover.
Did a dumb thing tonight... I was having trouble EQing with the parametric equalizer processing blocks, so I thought I'd redesign the signal path to use 30 band graphic EQ instead. You can change settings on existing processing blocks on the live unit, but to change processing blocks requires loading a different config into the unit from the PC. I didn't upload my presets from the first config back to the PC before I downloaded the new config, so I lost all 7 presets. #6 actually sounded pretty good! I remember most of what I did, but the midrange fine tuning was lost. drat! :lmc: It was listenable but far from perfect, so no biggie. Now I know how to save.
Well I guess it was a blessing in disguise. I started over again this morning, swapping out the Feastrex tube amps for the current source amp, it works better. The Feastrex FR flattened out and sound relaxed. Single driver speakers really want current source amplifiers. Where the tubes needed 5 filters, the CS amp needs only one notch. Getting closer - and saved to my PC. :D
Man, that is awesome.. Are you actually enjoying music again?
Nice!
Quote from: Carlman on January 02, 2011, 01:08:17 PM
Man, that is awesome.. Are you actually enjoying music again?
Quote from: Face on January 02, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
Nice!
Thanks guys! Yes I am enjoying music, finally! Especially today I listened to the 2nd whole movement of Beet 9th, and found only mild tonal aberrations, nothing too distracting. Finally killed a resonance in presence range without killing the presence. That took some time. I'm still in tune the speakers mode, but I thought today, "this isn't bad."
I've been playing all my big bass Reference Recording classical CDs, they really sound great with the spacious presentation of the OB. I am always tempted to turn up the bass for those, but then when I play rock tunes the bass is too loud, so I turn it down for the rock stuff. Funny huh?
Another week of fine tuning and it should be safe for masochists to come listen.
Rich
I retract that last statement. It is not ready. I got pretty frustrated with the whole thing last 2 days. I would listen in the morning to the same settings that I worked on night before and let's just say it was not as good anymore.
Today I started being a bit more ham fisted with the EQ controls, and starting to see that stronger adjustments are needed than what I have been doing. The nice thing is that the Rane provides any adjustment, live, right from my laptop. Convolution filters don't allow that. I am using the presets much more now too. That allows quick A/B at the touch of the mouse, with only a quiet voltage snap.
I also put my AudioSource 80W amp in place of the tube bass amp. The lower impedance sounds tighter and the SS amp doesn't complain when tortured. Below 200Hz it works better. As much as I love tube powered music, I also like having the system on all the time, and not cringing when I remember the tubes have been running for 6 hours with nothing playing.
I also put the high resolution wires on the bass and the lesser wires on top, both SC and IC. Seems to be better synergy, at least until I can get the EQ worked out.
The bass drivers' paper cones are warmer than the Feastrex' at the crossover frequencies. So changing the crossing freq by 5Hz is plainly audible difference in tone. This affects what slopes I can use without coloring the mid bass.
The Rane is a very powerful tool. At first I was thinking that the sonic deficiencies of my first attempts at tuning the speakers were due to the Rane's pro audio breeding, opamps, etc, but now I realize that I have a ways to go to reach its potential.
Each part of the system has great strengths and some weaknesses. Blending them together into a seamless whole that maximizes strengths while minimizing weaknesses is definitely a challenge. But it is fun.
Good sign...
I actually sat in front of the stereo for several hours today, listening to classical without thinking about or noticing the sound. When I concentrate I can notice some sins of omission, and it's a little soft (TWSS) but listenable without causing anxiety. Feels good.
Keep going...you will get there :thumb:!
Quote from: richidoo on January 06, 2011, 01:31:45 PM
....... As much as I love tube powered music, I also like having the system on all the time, and not cringing when I remember the tubes have been running for 6 hours with nothing playing.
Given that statement you should really give some thought to trying a hybrid amp like the Moscode. It gives you the flavor of tubes without a lot of the headaches. All of the tubes are small signal driver tubes, to they don't take the beating that a set of power output tubes does and even when you do have to replace them there are not that many of them and they are comparatively inexpensive, so you don't have to sweat too much about leaving them on. Except for July and August when I was trying to cut down on heat in the room I left my Moscode 600 on 7x24 and I only replaced the tubes every 3 or 4 years.
Thanks Tom. After hearing the new 402 the Moscode is definitely in the running for any new amp decisions I make, but only if the speaker needs that much power. My next speaker will probably be 95dB min 6ohms. But the speaker after that is 95dB min 2.8ohms which should be perfect for Moscode (or DAC Cherry.) I like to plan ahead... :D
My friend Sol came over today to help work on the EQ. He brought a professional analog parametric equalizer and worked the magic. Then we transferred the settings into the Rane and there was a big improvement overall. Thanks Sol! Now I can fine tune his basic curve.
Realized that my crossover freq sits right in a null at the listener seat. So I started messing with speaker position. I used free SynRTA by Liberty Instruments to watch the FR while I moved the speakers in real time, pretty cool. I was able to flatten out the bass quite a bit and did some listening, I definitely want it to sound like that. But the imaging was not great due to the extra width, and the EQ that Sol did went off when they were moved, so it'll need fine tuning again.
I decided to flatten everything, match woofer and mid levels, then do the Master Set speaker placement ritual on them. I'll be working on that tonight. Once I have decent bass location, then I can fine tune the mid with toe and EQ. I have the old position saved just in case.
Master Set came out good. They are closer to front wall by 20", which reduces the soundstage depth illusion, but the gain in density, bass power and evenness and imaging is worth it. With my last speakers the Ushers the tradeoff wasn't worth it. Maybe that is because the Ushers were so much deeper that their drivers couldn't get this close to the wall to use this particular position, or maybe the open baffle openness compensates for loss of depth.
The EQ Sol and I made for the other position apparently has a lot of room correction in it because it needs a good amount of adjustment with the new position. Master Set is worth a try if the concept appeals to you. Here are the important links describing it, but lots of discussion in these threads about MS.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=215930&highlight=Master+Set&r=
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60819.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65908.msg609250#msg609250
I sold the Feastrex drivers yesterday. Long fun adventure but it's time for the next chapter.
E-Lips will become a 3 way.
May they rest in peace. I heard a vintage pair of Tannoy drivers in a custom 2 1/2 in. th. cab with an external crossover designed and built by Dr. Loesch. A 300B Loesch amp and first generation Loesch preamp.
What a wonderfull sound. Tonality, harmonic stucture, air , linear frequency response. Kinda makes one rethink what they are doing.
charles
Rich,
What will you have for drivers on the 3way? Still going the active route?
Rob
Quote from: rollo on January 20, 2011, 11:16:21 AM
May they rest in peace.
They're not dead, they are going to live with someone who can appreciate them better for what they are intended to do.
Tannoys and 300Bs sound interesting!
Quote from: Rob S. on January 20, 2011, 11:27:55 AM
Rich,
What will you have for drivers on the 3way? Still going the active route?
The Jantzen JA8008 mid and Audax TW034 tweets, as used in designs by Troels Gravesen. I want to make some of his speaker designs after the ELips. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008.htm
The open baffle sound is not exactly to my liking so far, I seem to like the density and more omni projection of a box over the hyper spacious sound. That's what TomS said about his OBs too. But maybe it will be better with the bigger mid driver. I'll give it one more try with the JA8008s. They are 8" drivers so they will blend with the AE woofers better than the 4" feastrex driver. The Granada has bigger baffle than mine to fix that prblem.
I am taking a DIY speaker sabbatical, not going to get the JA8008 kit at this time.
So I'm selling the E-Lips woofers. ANer's get first dibbies... I'll post ads elsewhere next week.
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?board=14.0
Only one weak nibble on the woofers, and I'm not ready to slash them to move em out, so I decided to keep the woofers and continue with the E-Lips project as a 3 way. Thanks to RobS and Mark H. for encouraging me to continue with it. With 60-70 degree weather here this week things are looking up and I'm looking toward spring and new projects. Fucking winter almost got me this time.
I'm planning to get the Jantzen JA8008s and Audax tweeters with waveguide as described in previous posts. That will enable several new projects that I am eager to try, and will match the sensitivity of the woofers should I want to do a passive crossover for ELips in the future. The JA8008 is similar construction as Dipole 12, great motor, very sensitive, paper cone with foam surround.
Glad to hear it!
Those Jantzen mids look nice. Judging by the frame, magnet, and spider, it appears that SEAS manufactures them for Jantzen.
You're right SEAS, looks like a Prestige frame. Thanks Face!
The AE drivers are sold now too. They were too high Q for my taste, which is not necessary with EQ and active amping.
I ordered the Jantzen drivers from Denmark today. The woofers called for in the DTQWT-12 speaker I plan to build are Eminence deltalite 12" neos 100dB. They have lower Q than the AEs, and they will fit in the ELips baffles perfectly.
Drivers arrived today. I'll stick them in the E-Lips frames with active XO. Since the Elips has cutouts for 12" bass drivers, that will push me toward building the DTWQT-12 first so I can use the 12" drivers in ELIps also.
Richadoo the winter got to me. I have this pair of Maggie 2.7 ribbon tweeters just hanging here for some time. Wanna try em out for a Spring project. :-P Or anyone else.
charles
Thanks for the offer Charles. Is it a loose ribbon element, or is it a whole tweeter assembly with magnets and frame, etc? I don't really know how Maggies are built, but I thought the ribbons all shared one frame. I can't use it but it sounds interesting.
Keep smiling, spring is almost there! It's already here...
Hey Rich, Did you see the Orion 4.0 speakers at Axpona Atlanta?they have an interesting method for stabilizing heavy drives in an open baffle design.
(http://www.theorionspeakers.com/images/Orion%204/Orion%204E.JPG)
Of course interesting in theory (and to look at) means nothing if the speaker does not sound good. I was wondering if you had a chance to sit down and listen to them.
For those of us that could not make it to Atlanta here is a link to their website.:
http://www.theorionspeakers.com/speakers-and-cabinets/release-orion-4.html
If you are interested and in the Northeast be aware that Orion's parent company Wood Artistry L.L.C is scheduled to be an exhibitor at the Axpona show in NY this June.
I did stick my head in there for a quickie. I am a sucker for over the top hyperbole like Linkwitz preaching to his choir. I do hope that Orion's potential will someday be revealed. I was disappointed but not surprised that it sounded similar to the other 3 times I have heard them. Ultra clean and dense tone, music is coherent and very literal, no euphonic distortions - but lacking microdynamics, excitement and life.
I attribute the lifelessness to the ultra complex analog crossover with many high feedback opamp buffers and standard quality passive components, and the ultra high feedback Bryston 9BSST2 amps used in this demo. Too much negative feedback. I think there are many people who like that detailed but emotionless sound and Orion is very popular. I think with digital crossover and light hearted amps Orion could be a tear jerker. Or even more joy from a passive crossover. But it is serving a valuable purpose just the way it is. Max stimulation, min feelings.
The rear support for the big mid driver is actually not just a stabilizer, it is the only thing holding up the driver. No baffle screws on the mid, it's just kissing a rubber gasket against the baffle, reducing baffle resonance at the lower freqs which would muddy the upper bass. Mechanically, the speaker is great design. It is worthy of better electronics.
Quote from: richidoo on April 18, 2011, 12:07:08 PM
The rear support for the big mid driver is actually not just a stabilizer, it is the only thing holding up the driver. No baffle screws on the mid, it's just kissing a rubber gasket against the baffle......
Yikes! :shock:
I decided to mount the new drivers into the Elips frame while I wait for the damping material to arrive for the new DTQWT boxes. I just need to route new holes in the OB frames and hook it all up, so hopefully that will go fast and easy. I saw a post on AC last month about how to resize baffle holes. The bass drivers fit perfectly, even screw holes lineup.