Please forgive my basic question. Does it make sense to use a DAC simply to enhance the sound of a CD player? I have an Emotiva ERC-1 and a Virtue Audio Piano M-1 which sound fine to me at present but I would happily purchase a DAC such as an EE , Benchmark, Emotiva or other under$1500.00 if it would significantly enhance the musical playback. I listen mostly to classical music.
Quote from: EzraS on October 27, 2010, 06:15:55 AM
Please forgive my basic question. Does it make sense to use a DAC simply to enhance the sound of a CD player? I have an Emotiva ERC-1 and a Virtue Audio Piano M-1 which sound fine to me at present but I would happily purchase a DAC such as an EE , Benchmark, Emotiva or other under$1500.00 if it would significantly enhance the musical playback. I listen mostly to classical music.
Welcome to Audio Nervosa!
I don't think there is an easy answer to your question. You are considering using the CD Player as a digital transport, bypassing its DAC and feeding the data to an external DAC. I am doing the same thing except using a Mac Mini Computer as the digital transport.
A salesperson will tell you that you can certainly improve/enhance the sound from your CD Player and yes, you can! The big issue is that no two DACs will generate the same sound quality in your system - trust me, I have learned this the hard way! Choosing the right DAC is a difficult and time consuming, similar to me at least, as is choosing the right speaker or right amp for your system.
Remember that the sound of the DAC will be influenced by the power cord and cables connecting it to the system. Additional costs that must be factored into your decision.
The best advice is to try a DAC in your system as a demo or trial to determine the impact it makes on your system. Be certain to listen for a normal amount of listening time as a leaner or brighter sounding DAC may excite you initially but you may not relax or enjoy the music during longer sessions.
Good Luck,
Ken
Thanks Ken. At some point in the future I may go to a computer based or enhanced system but at present I do not have a wireless configuration and my Mac is not close to either of my listening spots in my living room or basement. I am 61 and not particularly computer skilled or comfortable. Your advice re trying out a DAC is well taken. Any thoughts on possible choices? Ez
http://www.emotiva.com/erc1_feature.shtm
http://store.virtueaudio.com/product-p/vrtu-cd-pianom1-pbf-1.htm
In my opinion it does make sense to use a DAC to improve the analog source IF the rest of the system, including the room, can reveal the improvements. The source is where it all starts - a mistake here can't be fixed elsewhere without adding significant distortion. But if your existing sources provide a good strong signal with low distortion and satisfying tone then you can skip the DAC until your CDP starts to become the noticeably weakest link.
It seems that you have chosen very well regarded players within your price range. They already have many of the the improvements that you would find in a DAC of that price range. Of course there is always something better, but I think putting energy into improving room/speakers/amp is more effective only because you said you are already pretty happy with the CDPs you have.
I really like the ESS 9018 DAC IC chip. It has some significant advantages over other DA chips and appears in some of the best DACs available. I have chosen to pursue it on a budget by using DIY kits from Twisted Pear Audio. I listen to classical also, symphonies and chamber, and I'm a tone freak, being a musician. The best tweak for tonal purity I ever did was installing 8th Nerve Adapt acoustic treatments in the corners of my room. That was using Squeezebox3 with basic Altmann DAC, a modest source. In a recent DAC comparison, I liked my ESS based DAC the best because of the tonal accuracy and density compared to the other DACs. But the output stage's sense of spaciousness is poor. I am upgrading to newer version with discreet output stage instead of LM4562 opamps (The Suffocator.) Being a DIY kit, I have to build it to save money, which hasn't happened despite the parts sitting here for 6 months.
You may also be able to modify your existing sources to improve their sound drastically for moderate cost, probably less cost than an external DAC and cable. Most CDPs are easily improved with changes to power supply, digital clock, output opamps and signal capacitors. But you don't know what it will sound like until you try it. A lot of money can be wasted on DIY following other people's tweaks but some tweaks really work great. With popular CDPs like yours there might be discussions on how to improve them on diyaudio.com and elsewhere. DIY ruins resale value. In the long run buying commercial gear usually costs the same or less. Only DIY if you love fiddling with electronics and learning new things.
Rich
Rich, Thanks for your advice. Room treatments are not a viable option for my listening spots and I am not confident of my DIY capacity. You comments have encouraged me to look into upgrading some my other components before purchasing a new DAC. Your thoughts are most appreciated. Ez
Go for it Ez!! :thumb: Really glad to have you here with us.
It depends. Cost is the main factor. A single box CDP can outperform most inexpensive DACs. Saying that DACs are a less expensive alternative. The transport matching can be a trip that never ends.
I have heard most of the DAC of the day issues under $1500 and IMO save for a better single box player and be done. Save for an Esoteric CDP, Ayre or Audio Research. Or whatever player floats your boat. The money you save on a digital cable, powercord could be put towards the CDP.
If you are not anal about your system it makes sense to consider the single box player.
charles
Charles, Thanks for responding to my post. I have not heard any of the higher priced CDP's. How would you describe the difference in musical playback from those that I have or similiar? Ez
Thats tough to answer since synergy of components plays an important role as well. There will be more there so to speak. Until you try one all my explanations and analogies are moot.
Check out music direct and order a Esoteric CDP you have thirty days to return it. The shipping cost can be condidered a demo fee. if you have a dealer near you leave your credit card number and take it home for a demo.
This is the ONLY way you will experience the sound in familiar surroundings. it is IMo money well spent. You would waste more buying and changing.Most of all have fun trying. :thumb:
charles
QuoteCharles, Thanks for responding to my post. I have not heard any of the higher priced CDP's. How would you describe the difference in musical playback from those that I have or similiar? Ez
I can recommend one CD Player that I have heard at our local G2G's that I and others in attendance felt provided a very high level of performance: Raysonic CD-168 Stereofool owns the unit we heard and someone else here owns and highly praises the Raysonic CD-128.
If you do not plan to stream digital data from a computer and are happy changing CDs I agree with Rollo.
Good Luck,
Ken
I would only buy a dac if i wanted to hook other media up to it, like usb or connection other than spdif. If cd is the only media than a cd player is the way to go. Its just less hassle and there appears to be an agreed consensus among designers that they suffer from less jitter and stuff like that.
Charles, Ken and Werd: Thanks for your advice and thoughts. Ez
Quote from: EzraS on October 28, 2010, 05:20:13 AM
Charles, Ken and Werd: Thanks for your advice and thoughts. Ez
If your in the NY area come on over for a listen or attend one of our club meetings. BTW good to have you here at AN.
charles
I have the Raysonic 128 it is an excellent sounding player. You can pick up both the 168 and 128 used at very good prices on Agon. Be patient everything shows up sooner or later.
I run the128 in NOS mode and it is the best that I have had here in my setup.
I have had in the past a Benchmark DAC1, Sony Scd-Xa777es, EE Mini Max, CAL Audio Icon MKII, EAD separates etc.
I have never been on the DAC bandwagon and I too would recommend staying with a full CDP.
A friend of mine just purchased the Virtue Audio combo M1 with their CD and it was nice for what I was hearing in the short 2 hours time spent with it.
Let me add that I am old fashioned. No computer audio here I like hands on interaction. This is my preference.
Be prepared, all this never ends once your in it.
Den
Obviously, there's nothing preventing a DAC from sounding just as good as any CD player, it all depends on the design. Some DACs eliminate jitter completely, either by resampling and/or reclocking the stream before it gets to the DA chip, or by math magic inside the DAC chip itself. The designer's tasks in making a CDP or DAC are similar, managing digital and analog signal fidelity. The CD transport allows playing the CD in real time. But with a jitter eliminating DAC, any CDP will sound very good if not identical to a high end CD transport. Using a computer for digital transport and library management offers advantages in sound quality and playback flexibility that eclipse a CDPs features. Some media player programs like foobar allow playing CDs live from the CD-ROM tray. With the advantage that the music is loaded into memory first, which strips off transport error codes.
For me the main advantage of a DAC is the flexibility in playing music from many different sources. CD, network files, or internet. Intelligent music services like Pandora automatically tailor the selections to match your preferences and has been a great discovery for me. Of course the high end DAC doesn't cure internet radio's low resolution, but I also have all my CDs available to me on a handheld color screen controller (Sonos) while I sit on the couch. I can program 3 symphonies into it and just sit back and enjoy for 2 hours. So even a medium sound quality DAC brings you music from the internet and makes listening experience more flexible and convenient.
Ezra, if you are at all interested in getting into computer audio or a network music player you will find a lot of help and encouragement from us. It can be very easy to set up and to use. They have their own built in analog outputs, so DAC is optional but can improve the SQ drastically for some players.
Quote from: bacobits on October 28, 2010, 07:28:46 AM
I have the Raysonic 128 it is an excellent sounding player.
QuoteI run the 128 in NOS mode and it is the best that I have had here in my setup.
Den
What do you mean you run it in "NOS mode"? Did you swap out the stock tubes?
Thanks.
"NOS" might be non oversampling.
If you're considering moving to a music server (computer server) in the next couple of years I'd think harder about getting a DAC with that use in mind. On the other hand the technology involved in DAC's are moving fast.
Quote from: AcidJazz on December 26, 2010, 07:47:08 PM
"NOS" might be non oversampling.
Hmmm. What you wrote makes more sense that what I was thinking. I just re-read his entire post and it doesn't appear that he is using a DAC in his system though. Oh well. I have a 128 and I was just wondering....