I am in the market for a new amp and looking at some of the ICE amps (Red Dragon) and would like to hear collective thoughts on the ICE sound from the group. Trying to keep the cost under 800 or so. They will be used to drive av123/GR-Research LS6 line source speakers. The other option that I am think about is getting another diy classd module and running them in bridge mode. Currently, I am running classdaudio's cda254L kit - classdaudio.com/index.php/products/class-d-audio-kits/250w-x2-500w-x1-amp-large-power-supply-transformer.html as amp. I like the sound from the classd so adding another module will not be a problem. Will have to get another case but would be a lot cheaper.
Any tube amp suggestion in the price range are also welcome.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I use Response Audio's Bella LP a 12au7 based pre.
TIA
Deepak
Class D
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1298654745&/ps-audio-HCA-2-stereophile-cla
Are not the ls6's efficient?
If so why bother with all the brute force?
A nice dynaco st 70 with an aftermarket input board of choice should be very nice.
Those speakers throw a huge sound, give them the delicate power they deserve, something with texture, tone and dimensionality.
People always get a hard on for speakers, but give a good speaker a good source and good amplification and you will be suprised how far your speakers can go.
Sorry but I believe most people(myself included) have not truly realized thye full potential of what their speakers can do.
The best speakers can not reproduce what they are not fed.
Mike,
You are correct the speakers are efficient at 91/92db. Would love to try tube amp but I have two concerns with them:
1) Biasing the tubes, not sure how often and how difficult it is
2) The system is dual purpose. My kids use the basement for playing wii/ps3/watch movies when I am not around. Would be concerned with potential burn and complication in turning the amp on and off. They are good about turning things on and off in the right order.
I saw a Rouge Tempest II and 88 on agon and keeping an eye on them but they are definitely out of the budget right now.
Great post Mike!
Deepak, tube maintenance is easy once you learn how. Choose an amp with the adjusting controls exposed to the exterior of the amp for easy adjustment and measurement. AN has new sponsors who sell tube amps, maybe they can chime in about the ease of bias adjustment.
Audio Research amps have adjustments buried away, but if you stick to factory tested and matched replacement tubes, they age well and stay well biased throughout their life. AR amps also hold their resale value very well.
If you use reliable brands of tubes like Shuguang, New Sensor, SED then bias should remain stable. Other brands of power tubes (Eastern European) may be less stable bias, IME.
Consider the cost of tubes before putting tubes in a family system. Your audiophile senses will want to use Black Treasure or other expensive and great sounding tubes. But they are just too expensive to piss away on vid games or TV that's on all day, but they make glorious music. On 10 hours a day means replace them every 8-10 months. 8 black treasure KT88s will give you 100+wpc and cost $700/set. Compare to "normal" $25 - $40 tubes from New Sensor or SED. My 300Bs are $1100/set. Something to think about.
I'm still keeping an eye out the the SS amp that does what a tube amp does (tone, space, life.) Or for that matter, a tube amp that does what a SS amp does (silent background, low distortion, low impedance, relatively low cost compared to tubes.)
Thanks Rich. I went looking at the price for KT88/6650/KT90 tubes and that gave me a sticker shock. I am going to have to bug Hugh about the Melody amps. Will just have to figure out a way how to make tubes and dual purpose rooms work, unless I get rid of the LS6 and get a dedicated 2-channel room in a smaller room.
Why not run a partition down the middle of the basement, half for you, half for the girls?
Hi Deepak,
My buddy Dewesh has my old Cherry Jr. It's not hooked up yet so if you want to borrow it let me know and I'll ask. Best w/ balanced IME, but adapters are fine too.
Ideal for a set and forget installation, with no heat.
-Mike
Quote from: etcarroll on December 27, 2010, 07:12:22 PM
Why not run a partition down the middle of the basement, half for you, half for the girls?
That is what I am planning to do which basically leaves me with a 14' x 14' area right under the breakfast nook which might be way to small for the ls6. I am going to give that a try once it is finished. If that does not work out, the 6's will have to go for smaller speakers.
Quote from: mfsoa on December 27, 2010, 07:28:06 PM
Hi Deepak,
My buddy Dewesh has my old Cherry Jr. It's not hooked up yet so if you want to borrow it let me know and I'll ask. Best w/ balanced IME, but adapters are fine too.
Ideal for a set and forget installation, with no heat.
-Mike
Hey Mike,
I have dropped a pm to Tommy to see if he has anything in the range. Waiting to hear back from him.
The input stage on stock ICE amp isn't ideal. A few brands using ICE modules like Wyred4Sound and Bel Canto have custom designed input stages to improve on the stock modules' inputs. I've only heard Red Dragon and Bel Canto at shows, neither did much for me. I liked the new 2nd gen Channel Island (Hypex based) amps better. I think the D500 was playing on GR line array too, sounded nice.
I'm still looking forward to hearing the DAC amp. You should take Mike up on his offer to try it. It's supposed to be a great amp.
Our sponsor, Black Sand Audio, is one of the biggest W4S dealers. John can give you advice on W4S and some other class D amps.
Deepak the Girls use of the stereo is the issue. Not safety but tube wear. The prima luna line is quite safe and has auto bias.
The Cherries are quite good. Tubes are great but the expense must be considered. Every 5 years or so new tubes. Saying that the Nightshade line is quite attractive with the use of stock tubes and not many.
Decisions decisions. If you are keen on the WS4 or Cherry or ant SS device a tubed preamp should be in the mix IMO. If you try an SET amp then a SS preamp is recommended. Neutral tubed preamps are hard to find and expensive when found say a CAT Ultimate or Audio research for example. An SET will give you all the tube magic you can want and the SS Pre will deliver an uncolored signal to the lush Amp, oh my.
Now that wall down the middle will leave you with a square. Not good for audio. If you can somehow make a rectangular room it will be easier to treat acoustically. How high is the clg ?
charles
Charles,
The ceiling will be around 7ft and I might be able to get a rectangle wall if I add 18" pantry with folding doors. I have a 12au7 based preamp so I am covered from that perspective. I am in the process of getting quotes from contractor's to finish the basement and will try both scenarios and see which one works.
Quote from: richidoo on December 27, 2010, 08:13:22 PM
The input stage on stock ICE amp isn't ideal. A few brands using ICE modules like Wyred4Sound and Bel Canto have custom designed input stages to improve on the stock modules' inputs. I've only heard Red Dragon and Bel Canto at shows, neither did much for me. I liked the new 2nd gen Channel Island (Hypex based) amps better. I think the D500 was playing on GR line array too, sounded nice.
I'm still looking forward to hearing the DAC amp. You should take Mike up on his offer to try it. It's supposed to be a great amp.
Our sponsor, Black Sand Audio, is one of the biggest W4S dealers. John can give you advice on W4S and some other class D amps.
Thanks Rich. Will reach out to John for his input also.
Tube pre before Class D... :thumb:
Quote from: mfsoa on December 28, 2010, 12:07:43 PM
Tube pre before Class D... :thumb:
Yep, have that covered :dj:
OK seems tubes are out. Can't keep them on all the time.
Trying to think what will work for you, all the things I think of are expensive or make a lot of heat...
sooo..
I think you need a dedicated 2 channel system....yes I am sure of it..then no more problems, no compromises.
Give the girls the big TV and the Ice amps for their Wii, and Daddy gets to play with the big toys! And give them the LS6's they work great for HT.
I see you with a Dynaco st 70 and Green Mountain audio callistos', and a dyna PAS 3 pre...you supply the source...make it good one and that's it! And a comfy chair.
Mike
Quote from: topround on December 28, 2010, 04:02:37 PM
OK seems tubes are out. Can't keep them on all the time.
Trying to think what will work for you, all the things I think of are expensive or make a lot of heat...
sooo..
I think you need a dedicated 2 channel system....yes I am sure of it..then no more problems, no compromises.
Give the girls the big TV and the Ice amps for their Wii, and Daddy gets to play with the big toys! And give them the LS6's they work great for HT.
I see you with a Dynaco st 70 and Green Mountain audio callistos', and a dyna PAS 3 pre...you supply the source...make it good one and that's it! And a comfy chair.
Mike
Can I crash at your place when the better half throws me out :rofl:. I will seriously think about getting the small room. What are the Green Mountain Audio Callistos? Are they speakers?
Edit: Yep, they are nice expensive speakers :duh.
Gee Deepak, we can all be good at spending your money!
My purse string is controlled by the better half anyway [-o<
Are Moscode 300 amps any good?
My 2cnts. I have (as most of you know :rofl:) a highly modified ice integrated amp; mostly done by Wyred, and having a stellar resistor-loaded pot followed by the Wyred buffer (or is it the other way around?)
It absolutely goes head to head with a fine all tube set-up down the road. In many ways better. Since no one has mine, except me, this is not very helpful :duh except to say that ICE is nice (done artfully) and totally trouble free (and very sensitive to cables). Told you it was only 2 cnts!
Quote from: shadowlight on January 04, 2011, 08:52:26 AM
My purse string is controlled by the better half anyway [-o<
Are Moscode 300 amps any good?
Moscode 300s are fine amps and a darn good value for the money, especially of you can find one that George Kay has already performed his magic on. (If you do them now the mods can be a little pricey in comparison to the value of the amp, but Moscode 300s that already have the GK mods do not command that much higher of a price than a stock version.)
I have owned a Moscode 600 for 20+ years now and with the full suite of GK Mods it is still competitive with a lot of current production amps. Is it perfect, no, but how many other amps can give you a clean 300WPC for a price that is lower than most high end power cords. I have a friend that owned a Moscode 300 at one point and we A/Bed the tow one night. They were very similar in character and SQ with most differences attributable to the difference in output power. A real cult piece after all these years.
Quote from: tmazz on January 04, 2011, 03:50:30 PM
Quote from: shadowlight on January 04, 2011, 08:52:26 AM
My purse string is controlled by the better half anyway [-o<
Are Moscode 300 amps any good?
Moscode 300s are fine amps and a darn good value for the money, especially of you can find one that George Kay has already performed his magic on. (If you do them now the mods can be a little pricey in comparison to the value of the amp, but Moscode 300s that already have the GK mods do not command that much higher of a price than a stock version.)
I have owned a Moscode 600 for 20+ years now and with the full suite of GK Mods it is still competitive with a lot of current production amps. Is it perfect, no, but how many other amps can give you a clean 300WPC for a price that is lower than most high end power cords. I have a friend that owned a Moscode 300 at one point and we A/Bed the tow one night. They were very similar in character and SQ with most differences attributable to the difference in output power. A real cult piece after all these years.
Thanks Tom. Eyeing the following one on Audiogon - http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1299166986&/Moscode-300-150wpc-tube-hybrid
Quote from: shadowlight on January 04, 2011, 06:08:02 PM
Quote from: tmazz on January 04, 2011, 03:50:30 PM
Quote from: shadowlight on January 04, 2011, 08:52:26 AM
My purse string is controlled by the better half anyway [-o<
Are Moscode 300 amps any good?
Moscode 300s are fine amps and a darn good value for the money, especially of you can find one that George Kay has already performed his magic on. (If you do them now the mods can be a little pricey in comparison to the value of the amp, but Moscode 300s that already have the GK mods do not command that much higher of a price than a stock version.)
I have owned a Moscode 600 for 20+ years now and with the full suite of GK Mods it is still competitive with a lot of current production amps. Is it perfect, no, but how many other amps can give you a clean 300WPC for a price that is lower than most high end power cords. I have a friend that owned a Moscode 300 at one point and we A/Bed the tow one night. They were very similar in character and SQ with most differences attributable to the difference in output power. A real cult piece after all these years.
Thanks Tom. Eyeing the following one on Audiogon - http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1299166986&/Moscode-300-150wpc-tube-hybrid
That particular one is a bone stock unit, but I would say that even as a stock amp there are not many things out there that could outperform it for under $500.
Just for your further information there is the URL for George Kaye's web site. It has information of the history of and upgrades for the entire Moscode line.
http://www.kayeaudiolabs.com/
Thanks Tom. Will look up the information that you provided.
I recently sold my classd diy amp and while I am looking for a replacement I am planning to use the Onix A120 integrated stereo amp that I have. The question I have is it is possible to hook up my Response Audio Tube Pre to A120? It does have tape in and out but not sure how the volume control would work on the pre and the a120.
Is it even doable or should I just pack up the pre until I find a replacement?
Thanks for all the comments so far. Learning as I go along.
Deepak,
You can still use your preamp with the integrated amp. But you will probably rather not, because it is unnecessary, and will result in higher noise. But if the preamp has good synergy with the amp and improves the feeling then go for it. The trick is setting the volumes on the preamp and the amp to optimize volume control sensitivity and total noise.
An integrated amplifier usually has 35-40dB of gain, compared to a stand alone power amplifier which usually has 26dB or thereabouts. So if you were to turn up the volume all the way on the integrated amp, you would find the preamp's volume control too sensitive.
I'm guessing, but the preamp is probably quieter in background noise than the integrated amp. So it is better to turn down the the integrated's volume control so that the volume level of the whole system is at the maximum gain level you will ever need for any kind of music when the preamp's volume control is at maximum. This will minimize the background noise.
How to do it: Turn the integrated amp volume all the way down. Turn the preamp all the way up. Put on some music that is on the quiet side. Increase the integrated's volume to the right volume level, plus a little extra. Now turn down the preamp and you're done. Then only use the preamp level control and leave the integrated volume alone. If you play something like Beethoven Symphony with very quiet passages, you can goose up the integrated for a little more gain, then turn it back down for the hip hop stuff. ;)
You may or may not like how it sounds with the preamp and the integrated together. Two preamp stages should be a net negative, but you never know. If the sum is not better than the parts, just store the preamp.
I have heard bigfish's new Moscode 402, it is a magnificent amp, one of the best high power amps I ever heard. The 401 is great too, but I've not heard any of the older ones.
Picking up a demo Cherry Jr from Tommy on Saturday. :D/
Quote from: shadowlight on January 11, 2011, 05:46:44 PM
Picking up a demo Cherry Jr from Tommy on Saturday. :D/
That should work out well..... :thumb:
Quote from: lonewolfny42 on January 11, 2011, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: shadowlight on January 11, 2011, 05:46:44 PM
Picking up a demo Cherry Jr from Tommy on Saturday. :D/
That should work out well..... :thumb:
It sure is. Had to up the budget but it will be worth it.
Quote from: shadowlight on January 12, 2011, 03:34:10 AM
Quote from: lonewolfny42 on January 11, 2011, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: shadowlight on January 11, 2011, 05:46:44 PM
Picking up a demo Cherry Jr from Tommy on Saturday. :D/
That should work out well..... :thumb:
It sure is. Had to up the budget but it will be worth it.
Up the budget from the ClassD
just a smidgen :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
aa
Quote from: eleazar on January 12, 2011, 04:00:58 AM
Quote from: shadowlight on January 12, 2011, 03:34:10 AM
Quote from: lonewolfny42 on January 11, 2011, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: shadowlight on January 11, 2011, 05:46:44 PM
Picking up a demo Cherry Jr from Tommy on Saturday. :D/
That should work out well..... :thumb:
It sure is. Had to up the budget but it will be worth it.
Up the budget from the ClassD just a smidgen :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
yep, just a smidgen. I was looking at close to 650-700 in parts alone for 2-sds254 boards, power supply, case, etc. I still might go down that route for family room once I recover from paying off the Cherry aa
Quote from: shadowlight on January 12, 2011, 03:34:10 AM
Quote from: lonewolfny42 on January 11, 2011, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: shadowlight on January 11, 2011, 05:46:44 PM
Picking up a demo Cherry Jr from Tommy on Saturday. :D/
That should work out well..... :thumb:
It sure is. Had to up the budget but it will be worth it.
And when is the last time one of us
didn't end up doing that? #-o
Quote from: tmazz on January 12, 2011, 05:54:16 AM
And when is the last time one of us didn't end up doing that? #-o
Yep, it will be bread and water for awhile :rofl:
I have a Moscode 300, with most of the G. Kaye mods, and most recently, had several of the electrolytics upgraded and replaced by Gary Dodd. I have used it primarily on my LS9s- which are considerably more power hungry than your LS6s. I have been very please with the combination when used in tandem with the Dodd battery pre and a Buffalo Sabre Dac. However, I had been talking to Gary about a having him build a power amp for me when he had a health issue. If you are interested in the Moscode, I'll let you have a very fair price.