I'm really really new to Tube gear I have an inexpensive tube preamp that I purchased recently.
I'm looking to try some other tubes than the $15 6922 tubes that it came with. ITR317 has some
vintage tubes for me the next time I see him. Would Cryo treating a vacuum tube be an improvement.
Consonance T99 (http://www.opera-consonance.com/products/t99.htm)
Cryo Tubes Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380302215725&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
Good lookin pre...
Some sales propaganda about cryoing tubes. YMMV
http://www.tubedepot.com/bsctfaq.html
I have bought from them, the tubes were nice, but did not compliment the circuit I used them in. I would only buy cryo tubes again IF I already knew they were a good match for my amp.
Contact Lee at Cryoparts, he is a AN sponsor and has lots of experience with cryo treatment, including tubes for his own use. I don't know if he offers tube cryo as a service. Also contact Black Sand Audio, John does cryo treatment and has done some tubes, and is always full of excellent advice.
My fav 6992 is Matsushita from 1970s. New JJ signal tubes sound excellent, but you need a spare. As for the Electro Harmonix tubes sold by Cryoset, I would not be surprised if they still sound a lot like the uncryoed version which is a little edgy, not terribly refined but dense and strong, very reliable. I think I would invest in some decent vintage tubes rather than freeze the EHs. But I never used these, maybe they are awesome! ;)
Sweet ! What is the character of the Pre as is ? warm ? Bright ? neutral ? That would determine what 6922 you might try.
My Consonance Cyber 211 amps loved the Matushitas as well as Mullard. both on the Yin side of the equation. the other factor is how the 6922 is used. if used to its maximum in the circuit then the NOS may not last long. some preamps are hard on tubes others not. find out how the tube is utilized from Consonance before you try anything. I have zero experience with Cryoed tubes.
Have fun trying.
charles
I use EH6922 (4 of them) in my pre, they sound neutral/detailed to me, not edgy and unrefined, but what do I know? I'm no tube expert. :lol:
I have tried cryoed tubes( from Cryoset) but they were EL34's and 12AT7, but didn't compare to non cryo versions...
Quote from: eleazar on March 14, 2011, 05:16:57 PM
I'm really really new to Tube gear I have an inexpensive tube preamp that I purchased recently.
I'm looking to try some other tubes than the $15 6922 tubes that it came with. ITR317 has some
vintage tubes for me the next time I see him. Would Cryo treating a vacuum tube be an improvement.
Consonance T99 (http://www.opera-consonance.com/products/t99.htm)
Cryo Tubes Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380302215725&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
You are about to embark on a very steep learning curve, he, he! Experimenting with different tubes is similar to sampling different flavors of ice cream as a kid. Some flavors you liked better than others and it is exactly the same with tubes.
My advice, for whatever its worth, is to forget about Cryo treating tubes and experiment with different tubes until you find something that is right for you. If you have not rolled tubes before you will be astonished at the differences you will experience. Unfortunately, you will also learn that there are some jewels to found at attractive prices but most of the better sounding tubes are highly sought after and thus can be expensive.
Lastly but not least is tube rolling is addictive - trust me, I know.
Have fun!
Ken
As I understand it, cryo for tubes isn't supposed to make them sound better, but last longer. After all, the work a vacuum tube does occurs in the vacuum between electrodes within the tube, you can't freeze a vacuum. So the question is, does freezing/cryo the electrodes within a vacuum tube improve the sound?
I'll let someone else test that out.
As mentioned, the adventure is collecting and trying different type/manufacture of tubes. I showed you my box and a half of 12au7s/ECC82 tubes for the Purity, now I'm collecting ECC83 tubes for the EAR 834P, starting with Mullards from the Blackburn plant in England made in the '60s, as that's what's in the Purity.
Oh, and that last part is part of 'the steep learning curve' already mentioned. I didn't know anything about a plant in England making tubes prior to the holidays, much less know how to decipher the codes on the tubes to learn this info, but I do now! :thumb:
Start tube rolling, and you soon will as well. :rofl:
Thanks all, I guess there is no one answer I'll start off with a pair
and go on from there...........Bill
Quote from: eleazar on March 17, 2011, 04:10:35 AM
Thanks all, I guess there is no one answer I'll start off with a pair
and go on from there...........Bill
Bill:
I believe what we are trying to tell is that there is no single 6922/6DJ8 Tube that is right for all of us. The NOS Mullards are very highly regarded but they are quite expensive. If you have never experienced tube rolling it really can be a combination of fun, frustrating and expensive. Don't be trying to buy your "ultimate tube" at this point. You might want to try several flavors of new tubes and try some value tubes off Ebay. You will be able to learn how tube rolling impacts your system, or doesn't without spending $150.00+ on one pair of tubes you might not like.
I run a pair of NOS Mullard 6922 and a pair of 6H30DRs in my Moscode AMP. I honestly went through many tubes to arrive at this combination.
Good Luck,
Ken
If I might take the liberty of speaking for Bill, I don't think he was asking for 'what's the best tube' so much as 'does cryo treatment of tubes make an appreciable difference to sound?'.
My response was most likely not, at least not as much as outright tube rolling would make. But my only experience has been with smaller 'signal' tubes, so I could be completely off-base here.
Quote from: etcarroll on March 17, 2011, 11:49:08 AM
If I might take the liberty of speaking for Bill, I don't think he was asking for 'what's the best tube' so much as 'does cryo treatment of tubes make an appreciable difference to sound?'.
My response was most likely not, at least not as much as outright tube rolling would make. But my only experience has been with smaller 'signal' tubes, so I could be completely off-base here.
Even if cyroing does not make a give tube sound better, if it can make some of the high priced NOS tubes last longer it is a winner in my book. :thumb:
I had one of the early generation Modwright CDP's with a tubed output section. The 'stock' tubes where Tung Sol and the holy grail tubes where Bendix Redbank, the Bendix tubes where significantly better sonically and also significantly more expensive. Dan sent me a pair of the stock Tung Sol tubes that had been cryoed - they where better than the stock version and as good as the Bendix, also much cheaper than the Bendix So in this instance my small exposure to cryoed tube sonic performance was positive.
The only downside was that one of the cryoed tubes lost is vacuum. As an ex-material scientist I struggle with applying cryo treatment to old fragile tubes that are made with different materials (glass, glue, metal) that have different thermal expansion coefficients - this has the potential to stress these tubes. Because of this concern, which may or may not be valid, I don't feel comfortable risking cryo treatment with rare expensive tubes. On the other hand I believe cryo treating low cost tubes is a worthwhile exercise to see if you get a sonic improvement.
I've tried a pair of cryo'd 6H23 in my Audioprism Mantissa and was very impressed.
I've always favoured old Amperex 6DJ8 (Holland, Bugle Boys), but would also strongly recommend the Genalex re-issue 6922. They are quite an amazing tube. (Jim McShane is your man)
Try the tube before getting it cryo'd.
Good luck.
Rich
Rich -
You're a funny boy!
Quote from: jazzcan on March 17, 2011, 12:46:36 PM
strongly recommend the Genalex re-issue 6922. They are quite an amazing tube
Thanks for the tip. I've heard good things about their KT88 also.
Several have stated "better" after cryo treatment. How are they better or just different ? Clarity ? focus ? bass ? Soundstage? imaging? Quieter ? What already :lol:
charles
It changes the molecular structure of the metal. Some people can hear this, others cannot. I have had tubes cryo'd. However, what difference did it make? .. I sent off a batch to John and waited for a while.. too long to A/B. But I felt the sound was smoother, less 'etched' sounding overall on one set.. One tube went bad (out of a batch of 10 or so), as I was warned might happen.
I agree it's worth it to send some new/re-issue tubes but not worth it on NOS... I probably still have some of the ones I tried.. I should put them up for sale.. I only use a pair of 12AX7's and 1 6922 now.
-C
i almost always use cryoed power tubes from www.cryoset.com and sometimes i will buy small signal/preamp tubes of current manufacture from Ron Sheldon who owns and operates Cryoset as well. alot of the small tubes that i like are rated as 10.000 hour tubes.power tubes are mostly rated as 2000 or 3000 hr tubes and i believe cryo treatment may help extend thier life. often when a power tube goes bad it can damage the amplifier by taking out resistors or worse damaging circuit boards etc... which is never a good thing. a few years ago i was running SED Winged C EL34's in a pair of VTL MB100 monoblocks and i replaced them with two quads of Black Sable Cryoed versions of the exact same winged C EL34 and i felt that they sounded smoother than the stock tube. cryo stress relieves metal that has been stamped,welded,bent,forged Etc... and is used in Aerospace, High performance racing engines,weapons manufacturing. custom gun barrel fabrication and so on and so forth.Cryo is a Science not Bull Shit :thumb:
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/02/science/for-the-musical-alchemist-a-new-tack-cryogenics.html
Quote from: Carlman on March 18, 2011, 02:54:03 PM
It changes the molecular structure of the metal. Some people can hear this, others cannot. I have had tubes cryo'd. However, what difference did it make? .. I sent off a batch to John and waited for a while.. too long to A/B. But I felt the sound was smoother, less 'etched' sounding overall on one set.. One tube went bad (out of a batch of 10 or so), as I was warned might happen.
I agree it's worth it to send some new/re-issue tubes but not worth it on NOS... I probably still have some of the ones I tried.. I should put them up for sale.. I only use a pair of 12AX7's and 1 6922 now.
-C
What's the difference between new tubes and new old stock(NOS) tubes except for their shelf life? It's the cryoed NOS tubes on the market that command the big $$$. It's only used tubes that I wouldn't waste my time cryoing myself. To date, I've only cryoed 3 tubes (all NOS) so I'm no expert but all 3 tubes are sounding great in my Havana dac. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
I was just saying that if you cryo NOS, and one goes bad in the process due to loss of vacuum or whatnot, then you're down a more rare, possibly irreplaceable tube. If you have lots of vintage 50's tubes lying around, by all means cryo them.. they'll get even better.. I just can't afford the risk on $100+ tubes personally.
-C
Quote from: Carlman on March 23, 2011, 11:08:11 AM
I was just saying that if you cryo NOS, and one goes bad in the process due to loss of vacuum or whatnot, then you're down a more rare, possibly irreplaceable tube. If you have lots of vintage 50's tubes lying around, by all means cryo them.. they'll get even better.. I just can't afford the risk on $100+ tubes personally.
-C
Do you know anyone who sells NOS tubes already cyroed? At least that way you would know that the ones you get have survived the ordeal. Although I'm sure it won't be cheap.
Quote from: Carlman on March 23, 2011, 11:08:11 AM
I was just saying that if you cryo NOS, and one goes bad in the process due to loss of vacuum or whatnot, then you're down a more rare, possibly irreplaceable tube. If you have lots of vintage 50's tubes lying around, by all means cryo them.. they'll get even better.. I just can't afford the risk on $100+ tubes personally.
-C
Totally understandable Carl. Guess I've always been a "gotta hunch, bet a bunch" kinda guy. LOL But I'm only talking about a a few 50's, 70's NOS tubes for a 1 tube Dac. I might just feel differently if it involved multiple matched tube sets for an amp or preamp. 1 failed cryoed tube could ruin the whole set so I doubt I'd be having much of a hunch. :rofl:
Cryoed NOS tubes are sold at Tubeworld (https://www.tubeworld.com/cryocomments.htm). I've never purchased from them myself.
Cheers,
Robin
Quote from: richidoo on March 14, 2011, 06:07:40 PM
<snip>
My fav 6992 is Matsushita from 1970s. New JJ signal tubes sound excellent, but you need a spare. As for the Electro Harmonix tubes sold by Cryoset, I would not be surprised if they still sound a lot like the uncryoed version which is a little edgy, not terribly refined but dense and strong, very reliable. I think I would invest in some decent vintage tubes rather than freeze the EHs. But I never used these, maybe they are awesome! ;)
Recently got an EAR 834P that came with what looks like fairly new EH 12AX7 tubes. It sounds great, but I'm still going to pull the EH for a trio of NOS Mullards. Maybe I'll send the EH to be cryoed.
I know someone here (hint, hint) who just got a cryo machine. Of course he's a newbe to this and could just as easily break your component under cryo as improve it, until he figures out how best to go about it and use the machine.
But I'm sure he would love to experiment with your equipment and at your own risk to help him improve his learning curve.
Quote from: BobM on March 28, 2011, 09:11:00 AM
I know someone here (hint, hint) who just got a cryo machine. Of course he's a newbe to this and could just as easily break your component under cryo as improve it, until he figures out how best to go about it and use the machine.
But I'm sure he would love to experiment with your equipment and at your own risk to help him improve his learning curve.
Your own cyro machine!?! :shock: Now that's taking Nervosa to a new level. 8)
Quote from: BobM on March 28, 2011, 09:11:00 AM
I know someone here (hint, hint) who just got a cryo machine. Of course he's a newbe to this and could just as easily break your component under cryo as improve it, until he figures out how best to go about it and use the machine.
But I'm sure he would love to experiment with your equipment and at your own risk to help him improve his learning curve.
I bet he'll try "hot dogs" first..... :rofl:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IlbZWHSJtho/TZAPbKvyeLI/AAAAAAAAAok/tinicwW0dvk/s1600/slagle+cryo2.JPG)
trust me there are better uses for this technology than tubes.
http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/2011/03/walt-disney-and-toy-stories.html#comments (http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/2011/03/walt-disney-and-toy-stories.html#comments)
dave
Quote from: tmazz on March 28, 2011, 10:49:46 AM
Your own cyro machine!?! :shock: Now that's taking Nervosa to a new level. 8)
No, no, no. Not me. But there are others here who have shown less interest in "settling down" with a system and keep plowing the field of audio looking to learn and explore. (hint - he did drop a picture of his son standing next to it on another thread)
Quote from: BobM on March 29, 2011, 06:16:34 AM
Quote from: tmazz on March 28, 2011, 10:49:46 AM
Your own cyro machine!?! :shock: Now that's taking Nervosa to a new level. 8)
No, no, no. Not me. But there are others here who have shown less interest in "settling down" with a system and keep plowing the field of audio looking to learn and explore. (hint - he did drop a picture of his son standing next to it on another thread)
Well said Bob. Exploring and learning.
charles
Yes, I bought a cryo machine, Iknow it seems nuts, sort of like taking audio too far.
But to be honest it is not for audio, I have other plans.
Cables (and the cryo treating of them) are not really what i am into these days.
Settle? Settling is difficult when you have a few friends that are very adept at audio repair and mods.
For the average guy(like myself) experimenting with audio is difficult to do alone, but with Karl, and Vinny and Slagle and a few unknown others, it is quite tempting to try different things, especially when it cost you nothing more than parts, and the occasional let down.
A lot cheaper than buying new gear all the time.
And while you are at it you learn alot.
Settle ? why settle...tinkering is fun :thumb:and interesting, same thing as swapping gear at raves, we want to hear other, new things, you can't buy synergy, it has to be discovered.
Mike