In the process of finishing the basement and need some clarification on ceiling walls. Is it better to have ceiling height consistent across the whole room or is it ok to have ups and down. The way the ceiling is currently being built I have about 8" from the top of the right speaker LS6 and about 20" for the left speaker. I thinking I should have same height but what does the group thing about that?
In general non-parallel surfaces are always a good thing.
Quote from: BobM on March 15, 2011, 12:27:01 PM
In general non-parallel surfaces are always a good thing.
Layman's term please :oops:
What matters more than the ceiling height above the speakers is the height of the ceiling spots where the tweeters reflect to your listening seat. Which is to say the spot where you would see the tweeters from your listening seat if the ceiling was covered in mirrors. aa If the two spots are pretty close in height it will merely blur the ceiling reflection a little which is OK. If the two spots are significantly different height then it could confuse the imaging illusion and sense of height. You could try a diffusor up there if you want to maximize the 2 channel experience. Since you put this in the HT ward it should not be a big issue for HT. If the total distance from tweeter up to ceiling and back to you is 20 feet or more it's no biggie. If it is only 10 feet, then a diffusor might be helpful to imaging.
I think one of the good things about the LS-6s is that they have limited vertical dispersion, and will interact less w/ ceiling and floor boundaries than conventional speakers would. So maybe the height diff won't matter so much.
So how's the construction going overall?
:pics?:
Quote from: richidoo on March 15, 2011, 12:45:13 PM
What matters more than the ceiling height above the speakers is the height of the ceiling spots where the tweeters reflect to your listening seat. Which is to say the spot where you would see the tweeters from your listening seat if the ceiling was covered in mirrors. aa If the two spots are pretty close in height it will merely blur the ceiling reflection a little which is OK. If the two spots are significantly different height then it could confuse the imaging illusion and sense of height. You could try a diffusor up there if you want to maximize the 2 channel experience. Since you put this in the HT ward it should not be a big issue for HT. If the total distance from tweeter up to ceiling and back to you is 20 feet or more it's no biggie. If it is only 10 feet, then a diffusor might be helpful to imaging.
2-channel is the primary usage of the room so want to maximize the setup for that. HT is after thought for me.
Quote from: shadowlight on March 15, 2011, 12:31:07 PM
Quote from: BobM on March 15, 2011, 12:27:01 PM
In general non-parallel surfaces are always a good thing.
Layman's term please :oops:
If the cieling is tilted at an angle and the floor is flat, then they are not parallel to each other and there will be variable reflections and little reinforcement of any given frequency. If you can do that with your side walls and front-back walls also it would be a good thing.
That's why you see so many speakers with curved sides and not a square or rectangle. No parallel surfaces.
Quote from: mfsoa on March 15, 2011, 12:49:38 PM
I think one of the good things about the LS-6s is that they have limited vertical dispersion, and will interact less w/ ceiling and floor boundaries than conventional speakers would. So maybe the height diff won't matter so much.
So how's the construction going overall?
:pics?:
Build out is coming along. Uploaded some pictures to the gallery. Here is what I mean about the uneven ceiling:
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=media;id=759
If you take a look at the picture the right side speaker is going to end up close (2' away) to the curved duct work that you see. The left side is going to be to the right left of the light currently hanging there.
Bump it out Dee . It's not that bad
Looks like the height at the reflection will be the same for both speakers. Is that right?
Quote from: richidoo on March 15, 2011, 03:35:01 PM
Looks like the height at the reflection will be the same for both speakers. Is that right?
1 part of his ceiling will be 8 inches above 1 speaker and 20 above the other,but the 8 in will only go about 4 ft out
Quote from: evan1 on March 15, 2011, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: richidoo on March 15, 2011, 03:35:01 PM
Looks like the height at the reflection will be the same for both speakers. Is that right?
1 part of his ceiling will be 8 inches above 1 speaker and 20 above the other,but the 8 in will only go about 4 ft out
Correction on the 4 ft. Just measured it and it is 7.5 ft.
Line source shouldn't be a big deal.
I redid the ceiling in my basement mancave a little over two years ago. One of the things that I did that was a big improvement for relatively little money was stapling 30 lb roofing tar paper between the joists to the 1st floor flooring.It didn't change the SQ in the listening room by much, but it did drastically cut down on the sound leakage to the rest of the house, which was a big win in the marital harmony department. 8)
The tar paper itself was pretty cheap (less than 1$100 did the whole room) But it was a bit time consuming cutting it and putting it up. If you do decide to do this I would strongly recommend getting either an electric stapler or a small compressor and an air gun because you will need a whole lot of staples and pulling on one of those spring loaded Arrow stale guns will get old in a hurry.
This method gives you tree separate layers of sound dampening (the tar paper, the ceiling itself and the air gap between them) and it really helped me out a lot. I don't know this from experience, but I did read that this works better than stuffing fiberglass insulation between the joists because the physical contact between the insulation and the ceiling and the insulation and the floor above and act as a sound conduit.I'm not sure how much more that insulation will conduct over and above what is getting transmitted through the joists, but that's what I read (Hey - it was on the internet, it has to be true :lol: ) But I can say that the paper and the air gap worked really well for me.
Planning to add R13 in the walls and R19 insulation in the ceiling with 5/8" sheetrock, which I hope will cut down on the noise leakage :thumb:
Quote from: shadowlight on March 15, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
Planning to add R13 in the walls and R19 insulation in the ceiling with 5/8" sheetrock, which I hope will cut down on the noise leakage :thumb:
That will help a little, not a lot. Adding another layer of 1/2" sheetrock on top of that, would help more.
Adding a layer of plastic or vinyl sheeting across and entire ceiling or wall helps create a good sound barrier. Make it as air tight as possible.. no holes in the plastic.
-C
Quote from: Carlman on March 16, 2011, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: shadowlight on March 15, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
Planning to add R13 in the walls and R19 insulation in the ceiling with 5/8" sheetrock, which I hope will cut down on the noise leakage :thumb:
That will help a little, not a lot. Adding another layer of 1/2" sheetrock on top of that, would help more.
Adding a layer of plastic or vinyl sheeting across and entire ceiling or wall helps create a good sound barrier. Make it as air tight as possible.. no holes in the plastic.
-C
I'll second that vinyl sheet. The Two layers of sheetrock with the joints staggered. . Leave gap at the side wall juncture 1/2" and seal with acoustic caulking. You can eliminate the other insulation.
Now with a reflective clg. the floor should be absorptive, say a carpet. having a reflective floor as well will not balance the reflections. Have fun.
charles
Quote from: Carlman on March 16, 2011, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: shadowlight on March 15, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
Planning to add R13 in the walls and R19 insulation in the ceiling with 5/8" sheetrock, which I hope will cut down on the noise leakage :thumb:
That will help a little, not a lot. Adding another layer of 1/2" sheetrock on top of that, would help more.
Adding a layer of plastic or vinyl sheeting across and entire ceiling or wall helps create a good sound barrier. Make it as air tight as possible.. no holes in the plastic.
-C
Would that layer of plastic or vinyl go on top of the insulation before the sheetrock and will I still be compliant from code perspective.
I don't know your local code but I put the plastic sheet over the studs before the sheetrock and had no code issues where I live.
Quote from: Carlman on March 18, 2011, 01:48:11 PM
I don't know your local code but I put the plastic sheet over the studs before the sheetrock and had no code issues where I live.
Thanks will look into it.
No Bldg. code issue. The vinyl barrier will be encased in the sheetrock. A further thought is to mount the sheetrock on rubber soundproofing pads so the sheetrock is is not directly contacting the floor beams above.
Pm Lissnr here . He knows the Manf's of such and would be happy to help. his dedicated room has all these features and construction techniques.
charles
I remember reading a cheap man's way around buying rubber soundproffing pads is to simply run some beads of silicone across each floor beam and let it cure before putting nup the sheetrock. This will give you an elastic barrier between the wallboard and the beans so less sound gets transmitted between them. Probably not as good as specifically designed soundproofing pads, but better than nothing and cheap and easy to do.
Well passed the rough inspection for electrical and building. Need to do some work on plumbing before it can pass.
Be careful with that vinyl sheet. Don't use paper backed insulation or you will be creating a moisture trap between the 2 layers.
Quote from: BobM on March 29, 2011, 06:18:15 AM
Be careful with that vinyl sheet. Don't use paper backed insulation or you will be creating a moisture trap between the 2 layers.
...... and mold won't be too far behind. :(
My builder wouldn't do as I'd asked, to add gauge metal "Z" shaped furring strips between bottom of joists and drywall, so now I have a direct connection from my ceiling to the floor above (even with 12 inches of fiberglass insulation). My best option now is to add a 2nd layer of drywall with "Green Glue" (construction adhesive) in between the layers.
Other tips:
Follow the Cardas formulas for room proportions to minimize standing waves in the room. This one is huge (sound treatments aren't needed in my place with Cardas speaker/listener nearfield recommendations).
Have the last run of ductwork into the room be lined/insulated flexible duct to absorb sound from the furnace (I can't hear my furnace from inside the room).
Don't install recessed ceiling mounted cans (use wall hung sconces instead) to avoid sound transmission.
Use an insulated fiberglass pre-hung exterior door to the room that has a weather seal. They have a pre-molded wood grain and can be stained/painted later. Really cuts down on the sound transmission through the wall and will be prepped to add a dead bolt lock (to protect your stuff and your privacy).
Try to install staggered stud walls where your room will adjoin other living spaces. I used 2x6 top and bottom plates with two sets of 2x4 studs. One set is flush with each edge of the 2x6 plates and spaced at standard 16 inches centers. The other set is flush with the opposite edge of the 2x6 plates and spaced the same, but 8 inches off from the first, so no solid (sound transmitting material) is in the wall (except at door frames and the top/bottom plates). Then install fiberglass batt insulation. For even better walls use 2x8 plates with 2x6 studs, randomize the spacing (12 - 24 inches, but stagger with the other set of studs), and use 5/8 inch drywall.
All this can be done for less than the cost of your next equipment upgrade, yet it will pay huge dividends. Even with recessed cans and directly attached ceiling drywall, it tooks weeks for me to get used to how spooky quiet my room is. :thumb:
As to ceiling lights, another option is to install track lighting.. I did 2 sets of tracks with 6 heads and only used 1 hole, which I sealed with a little box. You can do recessed lighting, you just need to build boxes around them.
-C
How many of us are regularly accused of being obsessed with this hobby to the point of distraction?
Now all these things make perfect sense to me, and probably to anyone else reading this thread. If you're going to build it anyway, for a little more effort and material you might as well do it right the first time.
But your builder is probably shaking his head and saying, "well I'll do anything you want if you pay me (and since you're a nutjob obsessive I bet you'll be willing to pay me well)."
:rofl:
I think I understand what you're saying, Bob, and we've all agreed we're obsessive about our hobby, nothing new there.... but I'm not distracted by the details. In fact, I'm driven to do my best at building my systems and completing my projects. That way my system actually sounds as good as I can make it so I no longer obsess about it.
If you know what you want and learn to not give a shit about what others say, the contractors tend to do what you pay them to, that's for sure. Doing it right the first time definitely makes sense to me.
Some of the people that did work on my house think it is a mansion, for a king and queen.. and had no concept of what it would take to live in what they were building. They tend to not ask a lot of questions... but need the most supervision. ;)
Consider double Sheetrock with Green Glue in between the two layers
No light in ceiling...no sound leaks
Paul