:shock:
This couldn't have happened at a worse moment. Just when I was sort of happy with my system I had to go and listen to another. Backtrack: I was contacted by a French guy who is a lurker on the DIY forum and it turns out he doesn't live too far away so I went (lugging the Marantz) to his house, not knowing what to expect. I was met by a beautiful listening room where enthroned was something out of a tweakers wet dream. Mono SET's à la Loftin-White 807? (usa?), the most tricked out cdp (another Marantz) I have ever seen or even imagined and two brawny wide band spkrs (home made) with some vintage super tweater. From the first note I was transported to another world. This was way way beyond my sound. The amps? the speakers? the strange and wonderfull tweaks (à la Peter Belt but a French version) Listened all day and agreed for a return match chez moi. One good thing came of this. My Marantz was the equal to his in every respect. In fact, in spite of having taken a totally different approach, there was almost no way we could tell them apart. His was just a wee bit more forward and explosive. Mine had a smigen better bass definition and was a bit more relaxed. The bad news was that his home made rca's made my latest version of Grovers' sound veiled and closed in. Ouch. Oh yeah, I also brought along John Pretor's power cable, which was undistinguishable from his. So now I am on the prowl for new IC's and yes, I have been bitten by the wide bander bug. Just what I needed. Next time I'm bringing my ICE amp. I have a feeling it will not be ashamed.
Sounds like a lot of fun. Epiphany, definitely! Good friends force us to grow.
I have a love/hate thing with this hobby. Whatever...I'm going to be "reasonable" and find some better cables. I was thinking of Sablon "PANATELA" but they are out of my price range. He said he has a pair of personally used ones from a certain Michael Wolff. Supposed to totally wonderful (arn't they all!) Anybody know anything about these? Ok wrong place to ask this. :duh. I really can't swing the price of new speakers and mine arn't so bad.
What about the silkworms or Koolcables? Did those ever happen? You could always DIY some of your own IC's... that really is a great way to go.. experiment with different cables and connectors you like.
Ice amp versus SET tubes?
your kidding right :thumb:
Nope. You haven't heard mine. In fact I intend to take it over and have a shootout. Mine is very special. Forget. What you have heard about this. The silkworms didn't do it for me.)
The last time my oldest audio bud stopped by cost me some footers, EnABL treatments (from Bud Purvine himself), and new monoblocks. :duh But the EnABL and monoblocks were worth it. :thumb:
Welcome to extended range drivers shep. The good ones ain't cheap. The high efficiency ones have colorations (that synergize with SETs). True really wide range drivers are rare.
BTW shep my class D monoblocks are modded Hypex, not that crummy ICE stuff. :mrgreen:
Quote from: JLM on August 05, 2011, 05:13:45 PM
The high efficiency ones have colorations (that synergize with SETs). True really wide range drivers are rare.
I found that to be true also JLM. Feastrex sounded best on SET.
Quote from: shep on August 03, 2011, 11:50:11 AM
Nope. You haven't heard mine. In fact I intend to take it over and have a shootout. Mine is very special. Forget. What you have heard about this. The silkworms didn't do it for me.)
I've heard numerous digital Class D switching amps but none that have "floated my boat". I have not heard your amp but I cannot comprehend it sounding better than a well made & designed Class A SET amplifier (with efficient speakers of course).
Epiphanies are cool... I get an audio one every 10 years or so... actually had two this past year (a record)... pretty amazing how it can change your viewpoint on a specific subject.
Cheers,
Pete
It's pointless to argue this as I can't prove what I say. None the less, this Frenchie with the Lovely amps and speakers is coming over to have a listen soon. Although we are talking different cables and speakers and room acoustics, I am quite happy to have him have the last word. Not only does he have better ears but has a wider range of experience with different tube and sand amps. It's foolish to genezralize about thse things. There are some rotten tube amps, badly designed sand amps and no doubt some ICE amps that will give you brain damage and internal bleeding. I rest my case.
By the way, this is the French driver he is suggesting to use for a wide bander. Expensive when you add up the box. http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/acoustique-services/acoustiques-services-am-21-lb-25-albc-p-3650.html
Quote from: shep on August 06, 2011, 09:32:01 AM
It's pointless to argue this as I can't prove what I say. None the less, this Frenchie with the Lovely amps and speakers is coming over to have a listen soon. Although we are talking different cables and speakers and room acoustics, I am quite happy to have him have the last word. Not only does he have better ears but has a wider range of experience with different tube and sand amps. It's foolish to genezralize about thse things. There are some rotten tube amps, badly designed sand amps and no doubt some ICE amps that will give you brain damage and internal bleeding. I rest my case.
By the way, this is the French driver he is suggesting to use for a wide bander. Expensive when you add up the box. http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/acoustique-services/acoustiques-services-am-21-lb-25-albc-p-3650.html
Hey Shep - I'm not criticizing, condemning or complaining about ICE amps and am not to looking to argue about anything... just my personal observations regarding very high efficiency speakers & synergistic amplifier topology. YMMV. It'll be real interesting to hear "Frenchie's" opinion is on your ICE amp. If it's that good, I want to try it! :thumb:
Always enjoy! Cheers!
Pete
I didn't think you were. I can read a smiley as good as the next man. This is a generic thing. In other places my claims are treated with polite distain like I was dillusional or too inexperienced to know better. I have no investment in being "right". My ears tell the tale. My neighbor, who is all tubed, is blown away by my amp and I calmly await the opinion of monsieur Triode. If it's an delusion, it's a hell of a convincing one.
Quote from: shep on August 06, 2011, 12:00:53 PM
I didn't think you were. I can read a smiley as good as the next man. This is a generic thing. In other places my claims are treated with polite distain like I was dillusional or too inexperienced to know better. I have no investment in being "right". My ears tell the tale. My neighbor, who is all tubed, is blown away by my amp and I calmly await the opinion of monsieur Triode. If it's an delusion, it's a hell of a convincing one.
I know where Pete is coming from. In general very high efficiency speakers are strange beasts that ruthlessly reveal the character of the electronics behind them because of their ability to turn even the lowest level flaw into an audible sound. Things that would get lost in the sauce on a lower efficiency speaker are put right out front and center on a more efficient one. (Remember the trouble stringdriventhing had with the noise from a rogue 90 driving his rebuilt horn speakers?)
But that said generalities can only guide us so far and you are absolutely right, the only thing that really matters in the end is what you hear with your own ears in your own system. You may make a synergistic match and find the only ice amp that sounds good with your speakers (and on the other hand, your friend my have the synergistic match and when he brings his amp to your house the two of you may very well look at each other and go "Yuck". (Been there, done that. :roll: ) It may work out, it may not. But the fun is in the experimentation. You never know unless you try. This of course is why it is good to have a large circle of audio buddies.
And I couldn't agree with you more about being deluded. If a piece of gear puts a smile on my face and gets my foot tapping I call that a good thing. I don't care how or why it works, I'm just happy that it does. I know a lot of audiophiles that would disagree with that way of thinking, In my mind an audio system's job is to increase my enjoyment of music and if it does that in my opinion it has done its jog, and I don't really care how it did it.
shep,
I'm glad you know that we're just having some good humored fun with you. I don't remember what kind of ICE amp you have.
Yep, not cheap. But OTOH you're not paying for additional drivers or exotic crossover parts. And you'll gain better amplifier performance since it "sees" and can react better to the simplier load. No perfect speaker and no free lunch when it comes to speakers.
My French ain't so good, but that cabinet looks interesting. Is that a port on the back plus an open slot on the front? (The binding post cup they recommend is rectangular and the port is round.) Regardless the cabinet looks DIYable. BTW I replaced the simple speaker wire lugs on the back of my speakers and run the speaker cables directly from monoblocks to the drivers and seal the cabinet holes with rope caulk.
I'd almost prefer a tweeter to a whizzer for various reasons (that's why I wouldn't spend the $$$ for the incredible Feastex).
And the stated Fs (43 Hz) is down 20 dB by their graph.
My speakers are very inefficient so there's that, but on the other hand that means I have to turn the amp up high to get serious vol. presumably that would unmask ICE'y nasties? The amp sounds just as good on neighoring speakers. For the record, although I have posted this before, it's a one of a kind integrated (long story) with major changes. among them a very classy resistor L type pot, with a buffer made for me by Wyred4Sound, all Blackgate caps and latest Vishay Z-foil resistors (also installed by them). The module is the smallest ICE, which is supposed to be the swetest (2X75w).
Actually it was only the French driver I was talking about, not the cabinate. My friend has another version he says he can have made for me, which is a TL with a Helm. resonating chamber. I saw the dip in bass response too, which didn't make me happy, but maybe this is overcome in another config.? I don't know. Anyway this all comes to well over a grand, which is not do-able. Other than changing interconnects, I'm pretty much stuck with whay I have, which isn't chopped liver either. Nervosa... :duh
Now I recall a bit of your amp postings...
Tube amps exhibit more distortion as you crank them up, solid state is the opposite, but digital??
I've been a fan of mass loaded transmission lines (MLTL) ever since I fell under the spell of Irving (Bud) Fried in the 70s. By the early 80s I had a 3-way with 8 inch woofer in a 6 cu. ft. MLTL that could do 114 dB at 17 Hz (too much for home, but would make you cry for love of what it sounded like in a 20,000 cu. ft. chapel).
Currently I own the original commissioned brineacoustics FTA-2000 (a conventional MLTL houses a "mighty" Fostex F200A driver with a huge AlNiCo magnet). I've replaced the baffle step/zobel with DEQ and had Bud Purvine himself give the drivers EnABL treatments. These aren't the typical high efficiency but thin sounding Fostex drivers, but are 90 dB/w/m, 8 ohm, 30-20,000 Hz. So bass is fully there but they thrive with the 100 wpc from my Channel Island Audio D-100 monoblocks.
Quote from: JLM on August 07, 2011, 01:45:50 PM
Now I recall a bit of your amp postings...
Tube amps exhibit more distortion as you crank them up, solid state is the opposite, but digital??
I've been a fan of mass loaded transmission lines (MLTL) ever since I fell under the spell of Irving (Bud) Fried in the 70s. By the early 80s I had a 3-way with 8 inch woofer in a 6 cu. ft. MLTL that could do 114 dB at 17 Hz (too much for home, but would make you cry for love of what it sounded like in a 20,000 cu. ft. chapel).
Currently I own the original commissioned brineacoustics FTA-2000 (a conventional MLTL houses a "mighty" Fostex F200A driver with a huge AlNiCo magnet). I've replaced the baffle step/zobel with DEQ and had Bud Purvine himself give the drivers EnABL treatments. These aren't the typical high efficiency but thin sounding Fostex drivers, but are 90 dB/w/m, 8 ohm, 30-20,000 Hz. So bass is fully there but they thrive with the 100 wpc from my Channel Island Audio D-100 monoblocks.
I had Frieds, a small pair picked up when going to undergrad / working in Phila. Quality workmanship.
Frieds were reasonably well built up through the mid 80's (I'm guessing on the dates). But as Bud got older (he never did like to run the company or build cabinets) quality got worse, especially when he sold the company. But from what I've happened across, the new owners are trying to offer a serious product.
I still have a pair of A6's (2-way floorstanders with "line tunnel" bass loading) that I scored big time that are from that first sale of the company. 5/8 inch oak patterned MDF, with really cheap/crummy crossovers. The guy who sold them tried to send me a schematic of an improved crossover, but we didn't communicate effectively. I still enjoy them occasionally as a background sound system in the living room, in fact had them fired up briefly this past weekend.
Quote from: shep on August 03, 2011, 09:21:31 AM
I have a love/hate thing with this hobby. Whatever...I'm going to be "reasonable" and find some better cables. I was thinking of Sablon "PANATELA" but they are out of my price range. He said he has a pair of personally used ones from a certain Michael Wolff. Supposed to totally wonderful (arn't they all!) Anybody know anything about these?
Sorry about the second-hand information, but an audio buddy of mine whose ears I trust has been telling me that these Panatela cables have been nothing short of transformative in his system. Obviously I haven't heard them yet, but I'm almost hoping they aren't that good...can't really justify the cost...but I have been advised to 'believe the hype' on these. We'll see.
Once again...can't skimp out on the cables...dammit. :duh
http://sablonaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=7
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue56/sablon.htm
Nervosa says you can't stop spending more money, but my want to retire in 5 years says differently.
Besides only my speakers cost more than $850. :oops:
Quote from: JLM on August 11, 2011, 05:38:24 PM
Nervosa says you can't stop spending more money, but my want to retire in 5 years says differently.
Besides only my speakers cost more than $850. :oops:
You're the smart one!!! :thumb:
Mark sent the Pantela's to me for some feedback. They were very smooth with good tone, but were a little laid back sounding IMS. I liked my Gabriel Gold Reflections much better and so did a friend. The GG cost a lot more money so not a good comparsion.
They were a beta pair, maybe Mark changed them for final production. If your system is a little bright or forward sounding they would match up nicely.
Mark's power cables are very good!
Joe
Thanks for the cable input. When I suggested that the Panatela's were over my budget, I was offered the following:
"Hi Shep, as an aside I may have something else of interest to you which would fall into your budget plus also had a connection with grover. Many years ago I discovered Michael Wolff's cables initially thru his collaboration with grover and I used them happily for several years, replacing my nordost valhalla, until I developed my own Panatela. He made me a captive pair for hardwiring my preamp and this has since been replaced with Panatela and is going spare. I could build this up with cryo treated Xhadows for you if you're interested? It's the latest spec silver and gold ribbon cable with carbon fibre conductor and would run in at 350 with DHL / paypal." This sounds more reasonable but I know nothing about these either. I know...this way lies madness...any feedback would be welcome.
So nobody has ever heard Michael Wolf cables here? I would sure like to know what I might be getting into if I order these.
I've never heard of them - but I'm not a huge cable hawk either. I tend to find something I like and stick with it.
Bryan
I've been very pleased with Scott Endler's custom offerings (workmanship, price, sound). But I'm an old school guy who will never spend 10% of my system budget on cabling.
Hey Shep,
As you have recently found there is some great sound out there and a few ways to skin the proverbial Cat.
Cables can make a difference and tie it all together as we all know. However ya cannot dress up an ugly Duckling and make it pretty. Meaning if one of the mainstays of the system is not up to snuff say your speaker or front end then mod or replace it. The front end is solid, the amp is solid. Sooooooooo before I would spend another dime on cabling that might help consider upgrading the crossovers or drivers or both. You will get more bang for the buck for sure.
charles
Good advice from all, if a bit varied. I already did what could be reasonably be done to the X'overs and I don't think it's worth changing the drivers. That's a whole vipers nest I don't want to go into. I'll just take my chances with different cables and see what happens.