TAS review of a cool looking, good sounding TT
(http://www.avguide.com/sites/next-tech-guide/files/main.jpg)
http://www.avguide.com/review/kuzma-12-stabi-s-12-turntable-and-stogi-s-12-arm-hi-fi-80
my friend had that table...it was excellent
Kuzma makes great products, real science and engineering behind them, with some outstanding manufacturing skills
Why is 12" arm better than 10"?
It is supposed to have better tracking distortion, or less distortion, some people say it is at the expense of rigidity, and a 12 inch has to be setup dead on with geometry or it exxagerates the flaws of its setup.
12 inch arms are cool looking and expensive, but most of the top arm designs are 9 or 10 inchers, which might say something(or not)
You can buy a Fidelity Research fr64s for about 1500 to 2000, the 12 inch version the fr66s is about 6000 to 8000, sort of crazy no?
Thanks Mike. Crazy price for crazy fun right? Still less than a Ferrari. :thumb:
What's amazing is the difference that the increased radius from needle to pivot makes to the sound, while the actual angle changes are extremely small. I guess tracking angle is very sensitive. Why hasn't linear tonearms research continued? Or swing arms with mechanical geometry that holds the stylus in perfect tracking? Masters are cut with linear arms, right?
Our Mike has this Stabi/Stogi rig and I've heard it couple times, sounds really great. I always loved the look of it.
Yup, still loving mine! Unfortunately, I don't spend as much time listening to it as I once did. It seems the pace of life coupled with the ease of digital makes me lazy. But, I did spend some time with it recently after cleaning up some recently acquired used vinyl - forgot just how great vinyl sounds!
The new 12" Stabi/Stogi seems a bit pricey and I have to wonder at that price point if it's the way to go. On the other hand, perhaps the release of this 12" version will make the original cheaper - or perhaps more available on the used market.
I see, so yours is a shorter arm. It's still called Stogi arm so I thought this review was the same rig as yours.
Like anything analogue, nothing is perfect. Linear arms reduce tracking angle issues but they definitely have issues of their own. The biggest being the stylus, although perpindicular to the groove, has to stay centered in the groove. These arms need to move immediately and freely with zero friction in order to do this as the groove shifts ever so slightly from side to side.
Well, since that is impossible what happens is the stylus is it bends left and right trying to move the bulky back end of the arm to one side or the other. This causes some mean tracking errors and "yaw". It costs lots of cash to do this right with an air bearing design. But still they remain finicky and a little bit of dust and dirt on the sliding surface and it's over until you clean it.
Like I said, there is no perfect answer.
So a cutting lathe probably has gear driven cutter advance. Thanks bob
I heard the Kuzma 4 point tonearm a few times on 2 different tables and was very very impressed!
Big, bold beautiful images, it ain't cheap but it is worth it if you got the desire and the cash
(http://cms.kuzma.si/AmplioCMS2/gallery//3776/20080915053739887_L.jpg)
(http://cms.kuzma.si/AmplioCMS2/gallery//3776/20080915053751619_L.jpg)
Reviewed in Sept Stereophile
So the head pivots left and right, and up and down to maintain perfect angle to the groove at all times?
http://puremusicgroup.com/cart/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=145
The Kuzma Stabi is a very nice TT
I was very much impressed with the sound
I did however prefer a Lenco TT in a Modified Plinth
I thought it had better PRAT with that same ballsy sound
What I have is called the Kuzma Stabi S/Stogi S. Now I'm wondering if the S originally stood for 'Short'.
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kuzma/hero.jpg)
Stubby?
Small?
Scanty?
Skimpy?
Sparse?
Stunted?
Shrimp?
:rofl:
Rich - who you callin' stubby, small, scanty.... :rofl:
I'm thinking S = Sexy! But then there's the whole 9" vs 12" thing and the conversation tanks quickly :duh
6 Moons review of the original:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kuzma/kuzma.html
BobM,I am running a Maplenoll Ariadne TT which has an air bearing platter and tone arm and I not running into tracking problems or dust problems you describe. I run a 1 micron inline air filter on the air supply and the arm assembly is self-cleaning, dust is blown off by the air escaping from the bearing.
Of course friction is not a problem. The arm cartridge combo will sail through HFNRR test record Band 8, 300Hz tone L+R,+16dB at 1.4gr tracking force and Band 9 can be negotiated with 1.55gr of tracking force. The arm is far from perfect in many areas but dust and mis-tracking are not on the to do list.
Scotty
I want that Kuzma 4 point, but I can't afford one so I bought this:
(//)
Vinyl is so addictive, I took my boys to a record store today and bought some records, if I won lotto I would have bought the whole damn store.
It's like candy :thumb:
and it sounds so damn good, setup right with the right gear
and there is no turning back, and it is not about what is better cd or vinyl, its an emotional connection.
And to be honest there are times listening to music ,even in my shitty car, that goosebumps arise all over my arms and thighs,my body gets cold, God it is wonderful, whatever makes those goosebumps rise, whatever media does it for you, just make them rise, because at that point you have reached the point that makes sense of it all. And what this all about, a true high, a high that makes you want to dance, or fist pump, or swoon, or cry, that is what this whole insane hobby is supposed to be about.
I spent two hours at a record store today with my boys. God knows we all spent time at record storesbuying records or cd's, I really miss those stores, they were a large part of our cultural landscape that is now gone for the most part, unfortunately.
sorry for the rant...I had a music filled day last night today and it was great!
If I read your post right topround you bought the Dynavector 505. I have always wanted to hear that arm but I have never been anywhere it was in use. I suspect it is under-rated and the engineering solutions it uses mis-understood in many cases. It looks like THE arm to use with a Dynavector Karat.
Scotty
I should get it next week, I use Micro Seiki TT's and the 505 is supposed to be a good combo with these tables.
Cartridge?...that is still up in the air, but the Dynavectors that i have heard I liked, unfortunatley I can't afford them :duh
I might try a Uwe 103 I have the stepup trannies for that :thumb:
The 505 is supposed to sound very nice from what I have heard from people that owned the arm, other think it is a crazy design,proof will be how it sounds to me in my system, but those upper end dynavector cartridges are delicious sounding :thumb:
Quote from: _Scotty_ on August 27, 2011, 06:17:02 PM
BobM,I am running a Maplenoll Ariadne TT which has an air bearing platter and tone arm and I not running into tracking problems or dust problems you describe. I run a 1 micron inline air filter on the air supply and the arm assembly is self-cleaning, dust is blown off by the air escaping from the bearing.
Of course friction is not a problem. The arm cartridge combo will sail through HFNRR test record Band 8, 300Hz tone L+R,+16dB at 1.4gr tracking force and Band 9 can be negotiated with 1.55gr of tracking force. The arm is far from perfect in many areas but dust and mis-tracking are not on the to do list.
Scotty
I don't think Bob was trying to imply that these things happen with all linear tracking arms but rather was discussing the kinds of problems that an engineer must overcome when designing a linear tracking arm. It can and has been done successfully by a number of companies but it is tricky and expensive to do right. Which is why in spite of the theoretical advantages of a linear tracking system, the technology as all but disappeared from the consumer electronic space with the exception of a few high end applications. LT arms were all over the place in mid-fi TTs in the 70s and 80s, but the mechanical complication proved to be more trouble than it was worth in the mass market consumer product lines.
Quote from: richidoo on August 27, 2011, 07:55:56 AM
Thanks Mike. Crazy price for crazy fun right? Still less than a Ferrari. :thumb:
What's amazing is the difference that the increased radius from needle to pivot makes to the sound, while the actual angle changes are extremely small. I guess tracking angle is very sensitive. Why hasn't linear tonearms research continued? Or swing arms with mechanical geometry that holds the stylus in perfect tracking? Masters are cut with linear arms, right?
Our Mike has this Stabi/Stogi rig and I've heard it couple times, sounds really great. I always loved the look of it.
Rich,
The swing arm technology you are talking about was develped by Garrard in the late 60s for their Zero-100 TT,
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1298/4609111806_c036a6e1e0.jpg)
The rod on the outside of the arm pivoted the headshell as the arm move across the record to maintain the "prefect" tracking position. While this was nice in theory, it caused multiple other problems. First, it was a rather crude mechanical system so the odds of it maintaining the ideal position to the tolerances that we know today are so critical are slim to none. (the last time Nick at AudioVisions (RIP - both Nick and the store) worked on my tonearm the last adjustment he made was to the VTA, the adjustment screw he moved had 32 threads per inch and when moved it about 1/8 of a turn everything just locked in and it was like a whole new TT. Now this means that an alignment change of 1/8 of 1/32 of an inch made a significant difference in SQ. There is now was the mechanical system in the Zero-100 arm could maintain those types of tolerances.) The system also introduced two more friction points (where the headshell is attached to the main arm and where the control rod is attached to the headshell. Friction at either of these points could impede the free movement of the system to the point where the angles are not maintained or noise in introduced into the arm. And lastly the whole system flies in the face of the rigidity that we now know is so important to high end tonearm performance. A nice idea in theory, and it might ave even been beneficial given the SQ of the TTs of the day, but not something that would work in today's high end TT space. I think that is is another one of those cases where the medicine is worse than the original illness.
Listed below is a link to a white paper on the physics behind the Zero-100 idea.
http://www.quadibloc.com/science/freq03.htm
Thanks Tom!! There is nothing new under the sun.
With the .004" adjustment of your VTA making such a huge difference, there is obviously a demand for a live automatic adjustment for it, which is what the 4 point does (I think?) But like you said, to pull it off, you must enter the realm of extreme mechanical engineering and price no object parts. Plastic consumer type construction will not fly now, when TTs are the nearly exclusive province of audiophiles who choose vinyl for the sound quality.
While the design of my tone arm is appears deceptively simple and some of the basic problems have been addressed, I would like to see greater rigidity in the arm wand.
I think one the big drawbacks to the air-bearing design is the implementation of the pressurized air supply and dealing with the potential noise the compressor may generate. I bought my Maplenoll TT back in 1995, used, without an air supply and had to design and build my own fortunately with the invaluable help and suggestions from LLoyd Walker.
I wound up using a dual diaphragm pressure/vacuum pump from Gast with a 70dB noise level. This has to placed in a closet in a back bedroom with a 100ft. airline to the table to attenuate the noise level to usable levels.
Most people want a plug and play TT and don't want added complexity of maintaining the air supply to the arm.
Scotty
My Micro Seiki has a vacuum for holding down disks to the platter and an air bearing for the 24 pound platter.
The pump is dead silent, the only way you know it is on is by looking at the light. Silent like 0 db silent.
Seems like they should be able to make them silent today if they could do it back in 1981?
All it takes is money and a good sales volume to guarantee a return on the investment to put the design into production. Micro Seiki had those two things back in the day. Also Micro Seiki always had good engineering.
I got by for about a $600.00 dollar investment in the air supply including the materials included in the construction of dual air pulsation damper tanks required by the bearing systems. Maplenoll never had the capital necessary to implement an elegant no compromise solution to the air supply demands of their bearing designs.
I actually have more $$$ in the damn air system than I have in the TT itself. I can't complain much though as I have put considerably less money into the vinyl side of the hobby over the last 20 years than I have put into the digital side. Vinyl hasn't had the same kind continuous advance in technology that rendered my digital front end obsolete every two years.
And I don't have an acute case of nervosa just a low level chronic problem requiring an occasional injection of technology.
No Denial here.
Scotty
some pics of the micro pump
(http://)
(//)
Can't see the motor, but good idea to use heavy glass bottles for reservoir, the walls are very stiff and easily damped by the foam. There is a label to the right of the barbed nozzle. What does that say? Can you see the labels under the metal pump belly between the springs?
I'm working on a diy rcm, like to know what kind of pump it is that's so quiet. Linear air pumps are usually the quietest of the common types, but not dead silent.
http://www.amp8.com/amp-etc/record/micro/sx8000_2.htm
here is a link to a guy in Japan that takes gear apart and rebuilds the whole thing from scratch practically.
He takes lots of pictures, this is a rebuild of a Micro 8000 a very expensive table
Quote from: tmazz on August 28, 2011, 08:52:56 AM
I don't think Bob was trying to imply that these things happen with all linear tracking arms but rather was discussing the kinds of problems that an engineer must overcome when designing a linear tracking arm.
exactly Tom. It takes money to get the design right. But then that's true of most things.
That's cool, thanks. Couldn't see the labels, but fun read anyway...
Here are some pictures of the Gast pump and the pulsation dampers as well as TT.
I can't get the images from my gallery to the thread.
Gast Pump http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=930
Pulsation dampers http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=931
Maplenoll TT http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=934
See my gallery http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=album;id=99
Maplenoll TT
Scotty
Neeto! Thanks Scotty. I learn something everytime you post. The accumulators are awesome, like giant pneumatic capacitors ;)
I was just reading about that Gast pump DAA series, their biggest diaphragm pump.
http://www.gastmfg.com/pdf/diaphragm/specsht/daa.pdf
It can make 60+psi at the small flow you need. What is the operating pressure of your arm?
btw, To post pics in the thread you have to use the "Direct Link"
on this page http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=934
Quote from: _Scotty_ on August 28, 2011, 06:17:56 PM
Here are some pictures of the Gast pump and the pulsation dampers as well as TT.
I can't get the images from my gallery to the thread.
Gast Pump http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=930
Pulsation dampers http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=931
Maplenoll TT http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=934
See my gallery http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=album;id=99
Maplenoll TT
Scotty
Nice job Scotty. I was just about to make a post describing how a friend of mine built an air system for his ET2 arm that used a storage tank to smooth out the micro flexes in pressure caused by running the air pump while you are playing the table, but I see not only have you already done it, you used a much nicer grade of equipment than he did.
I admit to going for the badass approach on this project. Exactamundo, Rich.
They are the air equivalent of capacitors.
I run the arm at 22psi and the platter at 4psi.
If the air pressure is too high on the platter bearing the platter will wobble on the air cushion because escaping air volume is too high and the film between the bearing surfaces is too thick.
Essentially your air bearing on the platter is only stable within a narrow range of pressures + or - about 1psi.
The GAST is overkill but I didn't want to leave anything on the table to regret not doing in the future. The diaphragms are also rated to last 20 years. That's what I call a durable good.
I bought this particular beast based on my experience with a single diaphragm version that I used in a lab configured as a vacuum pump.
Scotty
So you must be regulating the pressure to each load after the accumulators?
Where did you buy your pump? I want a model 15D1150-102-101 for my diy RCM, thanks
edit: I think Grainger has them
The pressure is regulated at the pump before the accumulators and the filter. In order to use a regulator you have to allow somewhere for the excess pressure to go which means you must have an adjustable blow off valve ahead of the regulator. The pump puts out over 60 psi and it has been regulated down to 25psi..
If the regulators were after the accumulators then the accumulators would see +60psi which would exceed the pressure rating of the flat bottoms and top caps and would require domed covers which meet schedule 40 pressure specs like pipe the body of the accumulators are made from.
The regulator is set for about 26psi. These things are not very precise mechanisms,(ie,they are not laboratory grade).
Pressure is monitored via in-line low pressure gauges which give a more accurate reading of the pressure supplied to the arm and platter than the regulator. These are the parts I am using to construct an air dryer for the system. The dryer is consists of an under-sink water filter housing that will hold over a quart of reusable color indicating desiccant. (http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=935)
I purchased my pump from Isaacs Fluid Power Equipment
Westerville OH. Ph. 614-895-8540
This may not be the place to find lowest price on the pump you want. I would beat the bushes for sure to find the best price.
I don't know how to re-size the image will web-site do this.
Scotty
Thanks Scotty.