Being the first person to own a pair of these speakers - and given that there has been some interest in them in the audio fora - I feel duty bound to post a detailed review of these speakers (I've already posted this review in a couple of the Aussie audio fora). I should point out, however, that theoretically they are still running in, and I'm still experimenting with my system and placement to get the most out of them. Hence, I will likely have to update this review in the future once I am confident I have their full measure. I am nevertheless confident that I have a good handle on their strengths and weaknesses already though - enough to give a fairly detailed and accurate review.
My System
I have an ageing Trichord Genesis CD player, which will be the next component in my system to be updated. So my front end is not state of the art. However, the rest of my system pretty much is: I have a passive preamp, a Pass Labs Aleph 3 power amp, and Harmonix cabling throughout. So my system does not go very loud, but it is exceptionally transparent. I'll soon be trying out Mike's own speaker cables, as they should in theory be an ideal match for my ML2 PlusRs. I'll update this review when I do.
My previous speakers were ProAc Response 2Ss, and original Response 2s before that. So that gives you a pretty good idea of my audio biases. I was originally looking at updating to Response D2s, but ProAc's local distributor doesn't have a dealer in Queensland(!), so hearing them was difficult. And while I was researching them on the net, I kept coming across showdowns between the ProAc 1SC and the Lenehan Audio ML1, which happened to be manufactured an hour's drive away on the Gold Coast. So I thought it made sense to go down and hear them.
My Opinion On the ML1s
As the ML1 is the Lenehan Audio speaker everyone will be most familiar with, I thought it made sense to start with my impressions of them, so that readers can have a clear idea of where I'm coming from.
There isn't much I can add to the many reviews of these speakers that have been posted around the net, except to say that I can sympathise with both the point of view of those who love them, and those who don't. They are easily the most accurate and transparent 5" stand mounts I've heard - indeed, they are one of the most accurate and transparent speakers I've heard of any kind. They also have the most extended and well controlled bass I've ever heard from a 5" stand mount. By any normal hi-fi measure, these speakers are an extraordinary achievement, especially for the size and price.
Yet - like many people who've done the 1SC vs. ML1 shootout - I found myself yearning to listen to my obviously far more coloured ProAcs. The excellent review of the ML1s at Sonic Flare (http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/lenehan-audio-ml1-loudspeaker-review.php) identifies the two problems that turned out to be deal breakers for me. Firstly, the dynamics just didn't quite have the "jump factor" I require to really enjoy music, even though technically, they had excellent dynamic range and transient response. And secondly, they just didn't project the stereo image out into the room in the way that I need speakers to, so as to allow me to forget they're there.
The ProAcs, for all their colouration relative to the Lenehans, really excel in these two areas, which allows them to really make the music come alive (as has been stated in so many reviews of them). I found their colourations annoying when a particular recording really excited them, but for the most part, I was able to hear through them and enjoy the music. If a speaker doesn't give me the sense of presence I require though, I just can't forget that I'm listening to speakers, no matter how technically accurate and transparent they may be otherwise. And so it was with the ML1s.
ML1 vs. the ML2
Even though I didn't ultimately like the ML1s, I was still very impressed by their many great strengths. And I really wished I could have all the strengths of the ProAcs without their colourations. Could the brand new 6.5" ML2s that Mike was putting the finishing touches on give me the best of both worlds?
Okay, I won't beat around the bush here: I first listened to a pair of ML2s with outboard crossovers and flimsy wiring that Mike had thrown together from off-the-shelf parts, and even in that state, the answer to the above question was unequivocally yes. Although in this state they naturally sounded a little rough around the edges, they were clearly of the same level of accuracy and transparency as the ML1s, if not even more so. And as you would expect from a bigger speaker, the bass was even more extended - almost unbelievably so in fact. But best of all, they made the music come alive in a way that left the ML1s for dead, and which was fully competitive with the ProAcs - but without the colourations.
I later heard them with more finished, PlusR level crossovers, but still outboard with the flimsy wiring. Then finally, when they were ready to be picked up, with production level PlusR crossovers and wiring, inside the finished boxes. On each occasion, they sounded considerably better than they had before. And upon setting them up at home, I felt they sounded even better still than they had at Mike's place.
ML2 Weaknesses
I don't want this review to sound like an unqualified rave by a guy smitten with his new toys, so I'll start by listing the ML2's weaknesses (also, if there's a deal breaker here, you don't have to read further!).
1) Not very sensitive. Mike measured them at 85.2dB, which sounds about right to me. And in a very low gain system like mine, this is actually a practical problem - I am going to need to get a DAC with more than the usual 2V output. Having said that though, they're a very easy load electrically - power is actually not a problem for me at all, even with the Aleph 3's measly 30W. If the playback volume of the source CD is loud enough, there's more than enough dynamics and headroom to make me very happy. Still, if your power amp puts out less than, say, 20W per channel, you'll probably be pushing it a bit.
2) Not cheap (starts at $6500 for the base spec, $8000 for the PlusRs). Although, by the standards of their build, component and sound quality, they actually represent something of an audiophile bargain.
3) Very heavy, and slippery when moist. These things weigh about 30kg each(!), and their beautiful, shiny finish is very smooth. Make sure your hands are dry when you're moving them around - I nearly learned that the hard way! Their weight also requires you to use them with very strong, heavy stands.
4) The usual caveats of highly transparent speakers. These speakers will tell you about everything you feed into them, so you'll have to make sure the rest of your system is up to the task. Very high quality stands are also a must. They may also tell you things about some of your recordings that you may not want to hear. Having said that though, they do not have the overly analytical sound of many high end speakers - they have an absolutely smooth top end, so they won't exaggerate brightness, for example.
5) For some, the lack of the usual reflex port peak and cabinet resonance could make them sound thin. Also, their very flat frequency response and low distortion may make them sound too smooth to some.
ML2 Strengths
1) Incredibly non-resonant. In spite of their greater size, Mike says the ML2s have even less energy storage than the ML1s (or the ML3s for that matter). At 30kg a piece, with very thick HDF (not MDF) cabinets lined with 4mm sprung steel plating, with extensive bracing and tension rods, these could be the most non-resonant speakers on the market. At the very least, they are fully competitive with the most extreme high end stand mounts (Magico Minis, Wilson WATTs etc.), but for much less money.
So what does this mean for their sound? Exceptional clarity and transparency for one thing: I never get the impression that they're obscuring whatever I'm feeding into them. It also gives them breathtaking transient speed and attack - listening to well recorded percussion is an absolute joy, especially as their exceptionally smooth treble does not impart any sort of artificial hardness or metallic edginess to those transients. I really love how the treble lacks any excess brightness or peakiness, yet still sounds incredibly open and detailed (due purely to sheer clarity and speed), without being overly analytical.
The most striking result of the lack of cabinet resonance for me though is the incredibly clean upper bass and lower midrange. Resonance in this area is so endemic to box speakers in general that hearing speakers without them is a revelation. Acoustic guitars and male vocals take on a whole other level of realism. On the other hand though, as this sort of resonance is so widespread, some people may find the absence of them disconcerting, to the point of making the ML2s sound a little thin in the power range. But this would be wrong - the ML2s are undoubtedly simply being accurate, and do not actually have any sort of frequency response dip in this area at all. They're just very clean, not really thin at all.
2) As neutral as it gets. Like the ML1s, these things have incredibly flat frequency response - if not even more so. And their power response corrected crossovers ensure that this response holds up very well off axis, even through the difficult crossover region. In this respect, they could well be the most tonally accurate speakers on the market - I certainly don't know of any other speakers with such an accurate frequency response across such a wide listening window. This ensures the room sound is balanced too.
The smooth response through the crossover region is particularly noteworthy. They sound smoother here than any other speaker I've owned, to the point of seeming to sound a little laid back. Once again, however, I am convinced that the ML2s are simply being more accurate here, and remarkably, they do not lack any presence - quite the opposite in fact. They pull off the remarkable trick of sounding very smooth and highly involving at the same time. Amazing!
3) Unbelievable bass extension. Mike uses a unique bass alignment: although bass reflex, it measures more like a sealed box, with a gentle, second order roll-off, rather than the sharp, fourth order roll-off below a port peak that you usually get with a bass reflex speaker. It's still bass reflex though, so it still has the advantage of greater bass for a given sensitivity than a sealed box. Anyway, the upshot of all this is amazing bass extension (and control) for the size of the speaker - the ML1 already set standards for its size in this area, and the bigger cabinets and 6.5" woofers of the ML2s take it even further. Mike measured them as flat to 30Hz in room, and they really do sound that way! The gentle roll-off means there's significant output well into the 20s as well - enough to rattle my windows on some recordings!
The lack of the usual bass reflex peak (and lack of cabinet resonance) gives the ML2s an exceptionally clean and even-handed bass. This allows one to really hear what's going on down there - whereas, in the past, I might say to myself "listen to that bass", I now say "listen to that bass guitar". You can really hear the shape and detail of the bass notes, making them sound more integrated with the rest of the frequency range, rather than just being the music's foundation. Despite their incredible extension, the absence of any peakiness or boominess in the bass may once again make some listeners find them thin. But once again, the ML2s are simply being accurate, and allow recordings to sound as they really are.
4) Excellent imaging. This still seems to be a somewhat mysterious area of speaker performance. With their tiny, solid boxes, I was expecting the ML1s to be imaging champs, but instead this proved to be my biggest disappointment with them - they just didn't project the sound out into the room in the way that I need to suspend my disbelief (this was also the main criticism of them in the Sonic Flare review (http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/lenehan-audio-ml1-loudspeaker-review.php)). But the ML2s image as well as any speaker I've heard, if not better. The ProAcs are legendary for their performance in this area, so I was nervous that the ML2s wouldn't measure up in this area when I got them home. But they proved to be every bit as good as the ProAcs - indeed better (especially focus).
5) Exceptional musicality. Okay, enough of all this hi-fi stuff. Can they rock? Can they boogie? Can they move you to tears? Yes, yes, and yes! The other area of the ML1's performance that disappointed me was their lack of dynamic "jump factor". This isn't just about dynamic range or transient response - indeed, the ML1s excelled in these areas in hi-fi terms. But that sense of the band shifting into top gear when they hit the chorus (for example) just wasn't quite there, and this is important for my enjoyment of my music collection. Once again, however, the ML2s do at least as well as the ProAcs in this area. And boy oh boy, can they rock! They reproduce high energy rock with blistering dynamics and speed, really making the music come alive. PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing) is as good as I've heard from any speaker, if not better. No doubt that very clean and quick bass helps, but we've all heard speakers with high quality bass that nevertheless don't quite boogie. That most certainly isn't the case with the ML2!
One musical strength the ML2s share with the ML1s is their very even-handed playback of all different kinds of music - they do not favour one kind of music over another. And although they'll let you know exactly how good your recordings are, they won't make too much of their flaws - I think both of these qualities are because their frequency response is so even. As I listen to an enormous variety of music (I have about 1500 CDs), this is very important to me, and is a big reason I preferred ProAcs in the past.
ML2 vs. the ML3
I haven't done enough critical listening to the ML3 to do a detailed comparison, but I intend to do so in the near future - I will post a follow-up when I do. I can say the following, however:
1) Both speakers were developed at the same time, and Mike claims they represent a new generation platform that is a considerable advance on the ML1s. Based on the ML2s, I can only agree with him!
2) As they are so much bigger, the ML3s of course have even more bass extension (although only 5Hz), and are a few dB more sensitive. Hence, they are a much better choice for those with really low power.
3) Mike feels the foam baffles on the ML3 are a big deal for sound quality, although part of this is to cover the extra panel area on the ML3s that the ML2s (as stand mounts) don't have. Still, the ML3 has them around the tweeters as well, while the ML2 doesn't. This probably gives the ML3 an advantage.
4) On the other hand, the ML2 has lower energy storage than the ML3, and even less than the smaller ML1! This is obviously a definite advantage for the ML2.
5) The ML2 has the simplest crossover design of any Lenehan speaker - apparently the box and drivers behaved very much as theory predicted they would with the ML2, so the crossover doesn't have to do so much to correct them. This could, I think, be a very big deal for sound quality. After all, as the Aleph 3's designer Nelson Pass says, "complexity is the enemy of musicality". We'll see when I test the ML3s.
6) The ML2 is obviously much cheaper than the ML3. If you've been pining for the ML3s but couldn't quite afford them, the ML2 may be the speaker for you!
7) I think the ML2s are much better looking (one of the best looking speakers I've seen in fact), but that sort of thing is obviously a matter of personal taste. :-)
Conclusion
I hope this review hasn't come across as too much of a rave, but there's just no getting around the fact that these speakers excel in every area of performance that matters to me (except that I'd like them to be more sensitive). I would like to publicly thank Mike Lenehan for designing and building speakers that are as close to my personal ideal as I'm ever likely to get, and importantly making them available at a price I can afford. They may not be cheap, but for their quality of build and performance, they're a steal - I honestly feel that these speakers are a serious contender for the finest stand mounts available.
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Your review is excellent! I like that you fairly criticize what you don't like about them instead of just fan boy poetry.
Charlie when are you gonna have all three models setup for audition? ;)
Quote from: richidoo on September 08, 2011, 07:22:13 AMThe pictures require membership to view. Please post them in the Audionervosa Gallery and link to them in your post, or upload them to AN directly from your computer using the Additional Options link.
Sorry about that! Is it okay now?
Lookin good! Thanks
Quote from: richidoo on September 08, 2011, 07:22:13 AM
The pictures require membership to view. Please post them in the Audionervosa Gallery and link to them in your post, or upload them to AN directly from your computer using the Additional Options link.
Your review is excellent! I like that you fairly criticize what you don't like about them instead of just fan boy poetry.
Charlie when are you gonna have all three models setup for audition? ;)
The ML-1 Ref is on its way to me this weekend. The ML-2 is being shipped from Australia as well as a new "Manhattan" model specially designed and priced for the USA.
Hopefully within one month our home demo program will be ready to go. For now only the ML-1 Ref. is available for audition at my home.
Next week we will put them up against the Pipedreams and write a report. Should prove very interesting.
ljamc nice write up. Smitten you are and fair as well. Very refreshing Mate. Enjoy your new toys.
charles
SMA
Sounds great Charles!
Welcome aboard ljmac. That was a great first post. :thumb:
This is an intriguing speaker. It looks like it is using one of the Peerless Nomex drivers? I have always been a big fan of these drivers. Do we know what tweeter is uses?
The one thing I would change is the choice of screws used to secure the drivers. Everything about this speaker speaks beauty except for those screws.
Is there more information on this line other than the ML1 on their site? I admit I have not tried searching yet so yes, I am being lazy :duh
Quote from: Response Audio on October 01, 2011, 03:21:59 PMDo we know what tweeter is uses?
It looks like the Scan Speak "HDS" tweeter, which I am very familiar with. It's a great performer. ;)
Quote from: Clearwave link=topic=3353.msg42889#msg42889
It looks like the Scan Speak "HDS" tweeter, which I am very familiar with. It's a great performer. ;)
Yea that's it. I was fortunate enough to hear an early version of these speakers and ordered a pair immediately. They will be completed a bit later next week and can report further then.
Interestingly, Mike believes there is not a great deal of difference sound wise between high quality tweeters. Check out an interview he gave:
http://www.stereo.net.au/articles/mike_lenehan_interview/
I own/have owned speakers of his that used the HDS and a Morel Supreme and they sound very similar in the treble. Although I haven't heard it yet evidently his new base model ML2 that is being shown in the Toronto show uses a slightly cheaper Scan Speak model and it is supposed to sound pretty good also.
In my experience the difference in Lenehan speakers, within the same woofer size, is usually in the quality of crossover parts and, interestingly, to a lesser extent, if it is lined with steel or not.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: Response Audio on October 01, 2011, 03:21:59 PM
This is an intriguing speaker. It looks like it is using one of the Peerless Nomex drivers? I have always been a big fan of these drivers. Do we know what tweeter is uses? The one thing I would change is the choice of screws used to secure the drivers. Everything about this speaker speaks beauty except for those screws. Is there more information on this line other than the ML1 on their site? I admit I have not tried searching yet so yes, I am being lazy :duh
Its brand new so I assume they haven't got around to putting info about it yet on the website. Its a Nomex woofer and HDS tweeter. The screws are brass because, get this, evidently they sound better - strange but supposedly true.
Rollo is a dealer in Lenehan speakers so he is probably the best person to contact if you want to hear some. I have my own personal pair of ML2's ordered and they will have stuff like Duelund capactors, resistors etc so will be a bit better than the speakers reviewed here. Providing I can figure out a way to do it at a reasonable price I will try and get it over to the US for you guys to hear. I do enjoy sending my equipment around for others to hear but not if it costs a fortune. I am hopeful but can't promise anything definite.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: bhobba on October 02, 2011, 02:42:36 AMAlthough I haven't heard it yet evidently his new base model ML2 that is being shown in the Toronto show uses a slightly cheaper Scan Speak model and it is supposed to sound pretty good also.
I should correct that. The speaker Bill is referring to is not the ML2 at all - it is a new speaker that Mike was originally going to call the 'Manhattan', but will now likely call the M2. It is basically an attempt by Mike to build a cheaper speaker. I have heard an early version, and they were nowhere near as good as the ML2s, especially in the treble. But they aren't finished yet.
Yea that's right - the new speaker is not really an ML2 - I have been calling it the new base model ML2 because I was not sure what it was being called - looks like the name is M2.
Thanks
Bill
Hi Guys
Just a little correction - found out today the name is S2 not M2. My ML2's are really close now and will do a post shortly.
Thanks
Bill
Yes Sir the S2 it is. Ready for demo in the in the NY Tri-State area.
They will make their NY debut this Saturday at the Rave meet in LI.
Go to NY Rave Circle for details and directions.
charles
SMA
rollo14@verizon.net
Quote from: rollo on November 23, 2011, 07:04:30 AM
Yes Sir the S2 it is. Ready for demo in the in the NY Tri-State area.
They will make their NY debut this Saturday at the Rave meet in LI.
Go to NY Rave Circle for details and directions.
charles
SMA
rollo14@verizon.net
Cool... 8)
Looking forward to hearing them.... :thumb:
Any "spec's" for the new S2 ?
Hi Guys
My ML2's have finally been finished and I heard them for the first time today. The first thing I noticed was they sounded more analog like (for want of a better word), less smeared and more focused than my ML3 References which left me scratching my head. Bass for all practical purposes as low as my ML3's being flat to 30hz instead of 25 hz. Played some Casandra Wilson with pretty low bass and I really could not tell the difference. They sounded a better speaker than my three times the price ML3's. What the fook. Then the reason was found - it had what are called toppers on them which are anti resonance devices. I have heard them before and they make a big difference. I took them off and the drop in performance was obvious - less analogue like and not as focused - now my ML3's were better.
Ok how do they compare to Lee's ML2's? Well I only heard his speakers as a late prototype but I felt my speakers had the natural, fast sound of the Duelund VSF Copper I am used to in my speakers and did not notice it in Lees speakers which had Solen Tin Foil.
I can confirm these speakers, with or without the toppers, are above the ML1 Reference which I had in my system for quite a while. Don't even think about getting ML1's unless you have a specific reason such as near-field monitoring, you need portability to for example demo audio equipment, have a small room, money is tight, or some other reason.
I did my initial listen with Mac 501's which are excellent amps but at $20K are probably not the amp most would use. I switched to a NAKSA 100 and again it sounded fantastic. You can easily hear the NAKSA signature which is excellent bass grip with a tube like, non fatiguing, relaxing sound you can easily listen to for long periods. An excellent generalist amp. I hope to pop some valve gear on it a bit further down the track such as my Trafomatic SET but I suspect with how accurate it is it will be the usual euphonic bliss - great for Dianna Krall etc but not the bass slam of SS.
How do they compare to the S2? I have only heard them as late prototypes and they have been improved considerably since then. I hate to say it however but these are in an entirely different league. I wish I could say there was not a lot in it but unfortunately you do get a lot for the extra dosh. Mike did mention the approx cost and I will be happy to post it but they are roughly twice the price of the S2.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: lonewolfny42 on November 23, 2011, 07:56:28 AM
Cool... 8)
Looking forward to hearing them.... :thumb:
Any "spec's" for the new S2 ?
Don't know the full details but I do know they are flat to 30hz and about 87db efficient. They use hand wound air coil inductors and Erse capacitors. Unfortunately no Duelunds at that price - drat.
Thanks
Bill
Thanks Bill. Full specs will be available soon. For now Bill has provided the basics.
charles
SMA
I need to add a few observations and make a few corrections to Bill's posts:
1) My finished pair of ML2s have Mundorfs - the Solens were only for a test crossover (which Bill and I heard at Mike's place).
2) I don't know what stands Bill had the ML2s on, but given his observations with the toppers I can only assume they weren't well suited to the ML2s. Mike had them on ML1 stands, which weren't ideal for them either (they are too tall and narrow).
3) I do have very good stands for them (Target Resolution 2s), and the sound of the ML2s at my place is far superior to how they sounded at Mike's place (and they've only gotten better since I wrote my review).
4) I actually would fully expect them to sound more focused than the ML3s on a good stand. They have lower energy storage than the ML3s, and are far smaller, both of which bode well for this aspect of performance. Yet as Bill says, their bass is for all intents and purposes as good as the ML3s! What you lose is sensitivity - the bigger box and drivers of the ML3 give you an extra 4dB. But if you don't need that, I would actually expect the 2 to be the better speaker overall - it is truly exceptional.
It looks as though Mike will be abandoning his plans to go retail, which means this speaker will probably start at only $4K ($5K for the PlusR). This would make them the ultimate audiophile bargain in loudpseakers IMHO.
As for the S2s, I heard early prototypes which weren't even in the same ballpark as the ML2s, but Mike says they've improved a lot since then.
Quote from: ljmac on November 28, 2011, 05:01:41 AM
It looks as though Mike will be abandoning his plans to go retail, which means this speaker will probably start at only $4K ($5K for the PlusR). This would make them the ultimate audiophile bargain in loudpseakers IMHO.
If you're stateside, there are better bargains to be had.
Quote from: Face on November 28, 2011, 06:08:24 AM
Quote from: ljmac on November 28, 2011, 05:01:41 AM
It looks as though Mike will be abandoning his plans to go retail, which means this speaker will probably start at only $4K ($5K for the PlusR). This would make them the ultimate audiophile bargain in loudpseakers IMHO.
If you're stateside, there are better bargains to be had.
How can you say that when you haven't even heard these speakers? They are right up there with the likes of Magico Minis (indeed better IMHO).
Comparing them to Magico may not be a compliment. ;)
Hi Guys
Here are some pictures. Sorry for the quality - Mike has been a bit busy and was tuning them when I arrived to take the pictures so I was not able to hear them. A guy is going to borrow them, probably Friday, and can take some better ones then as well as posting his opinon.
Thanks
Bill
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=1027)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=1031)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=1030)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=1029)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=1028)
Quote from: Face on November 28, 2011, 06:08:24 AM
Quote from: ljmac on November 28, 2011, 05:01:41 AM
It looks as though Mike will be abandoning his plans to go retail, which means this speaker will probably start at only $4K ($5K for the PlusR). This would make them the ultimate audiophile bargain in loudspeakers IMHO.
If you're stateside, there are better bargains to be had.
So what can you compare at 4K with bass response down to 30-Hz.
If you heard the ML2 your opinion would be a valid one. Have you heard any Lenehan speakers in your system ? I could arrange a listen of the ML1 Ref and S2.
There may very well be better pricing however not performance. Until we compare others side by side only then can we make that call.
I know you meant no harm just blanket statements are unfair to any Manf. A home demo is the only way to fly. :thumb:
charles
SMA
Quote from: rollo on November 29, 2011, 07:21:52 AM
Quote from: Face on November 28, 2011, 06:08:24 AM
Quote from: ljmac on November 28, 2011, 05:01:41 AM
It looks as though Mike will be abandoning his plans to go retail, which means this speaker will probably start at only $4K ($5K for the PlusR). This would make them the ultimate audiophile bargain in loudspeakers IMHO.
If you're stateside, there are better bargains to be had.
So what can you compare at 4K with bass response down to 30-Hz.
If you heard the ML2 your opinion would be a valid one. Have you heard any Lenehan speakers in your system ? I could arrange a listen of the ML1 Ref and S2.
There may very well be better pricing however not performance. Until we compare others side by side only then can we make that call.
I know you meant no harm just blanket statements are unfair to any Manf. A home demo is the only way to fly. :thumb:
charles
SMA
Charles, I didn't mean to make a dig at Lenehan, it was the blanket statements made. For 4K I would consider http://www.vaporsound.com/#all or http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic3.html or even http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/lsim/index.php?s=lsim707. Plus, I'm having a hard time believing that Peerless 7" could dig down to 30hz. What's the speaker's efficiency?
The woofer is 87dB, resonance 43Hz.
http://www.tymphany.com/files/HDS-P830883%20Rev1_0.pdf
Bill your pictures are tooooooo biiiiggggg :rofl: But thanks for posting them, the speakers look good! I always wonder how those big metallic paint flakes get through the spray orifice?
those speakers go down to 2.....in my room :rofl:
Quote from: Face on November 29, 2011, 09:50:58 AM
Charles, I didn't mean to make a dig at Lenehan, it was the blanket statements made. For 4K I would consider http://www.vaporsound.com/#all or http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic3.html or even http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/lsim/index.php?s=lsim707. Plus, I'm having a hard time believing that Peerless 7" could dig down to 30hz. What's the speaker's efficiency?
About 87 db.
Yes that they go down to 30hz seems a bit incredulous and there is a discussion on the forum out in Australia about that right now and the fact they have virtually the same flat response 90% off axis - which also seems incredulous. Many people including myself have asked Mike about it. All he will say is he has his own propriety alignment that behaves more like a transmission line than a ported design and he has put many many years work into the crossover trying and ruling out things like time alignment and minimum phase crossovers.
Thanks
Bill
Feastrex brought a huge 16 foot folded pipe speaker to RMAF in 2008. It played 20Hz as loud as you like with a single 4" cone. And it sounded like crap, just read Fremer's review. My point is a port can be tuned to any frequency, but the further the port tuning from the driver resonance, the higher the group delay, which means the slower the bass will sound because fast bass = low GD. I had a pair of Gemme Katanas with 5" Accuton woofers that played down into 30s, but the 6 foot folded TL with reflex port made the bass loud but slow, it was intolerable to me. I've only heard Lenehan ML1, but the bass was so strong and clean for its size that I can imagine that the ML2 bass would be similar quality - else why bother? Mike uses large gauge coils which make the bass sound much larger and faster than it normally does on speakers with cheaper coils. This should allow more aggressive port tuning without excessive thickening. With driver resonance at 43Hz and a biggish box, I can see -6 or -10 at 30Hz. To an audiophile it's the group delay that matters just as much as the amplitude.
you know they say horsepower sells cars and torque wins races.
I hear many audiophiles spout on and on about how low their speakers go ..it makes me think it may be inversely proportional to their penis size
Do the numbers matter that much? Does it make you feel more verile that your speaker goes down to 20?
Most people don't even listen in a room large enough to support a 20 hz wave. It makes me laugh......such stupidity
Not that it matters at all , but I think you need big drivers with big cabinets to move air, the crossover trickery only fools you in the beginning, then it wears thin
sorry to be such a party pooper, so lets get back to our regular broadcast
Quote from: topround on November 29, 2011, 07:04:28 PM
Not that it matters at all , but I think you need big drivers with big cabinets to move air, the crossover trickery only fools you in the beginning, then it wears thin
Mike, a small driver
or small enclosure would work too, but at a price(low efficiency, long port syndrome, etc..).
Quote from: bhobba on November 29, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Face on November 29, 2011, 09:50:58 AM
Charles, I didn't mean to make a dig at Lenehan, it was the blanket statements made. For 4K I would consider http://www.vaporsound.com/#all or http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic3.html or even http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/lsim/index.php?s=lsim707. Plus, I'm having a hard time believing that Peerless 7" could dig down to 30hz. What's the speaker's efficiency?
About 87 db.
Yes that they go down to 30hz seems a bit incredulous and there is a discussion on the forum out in Australia about that right now and the fact they have virtually the same flat response 90% off axis - which also seems incredulous. Many people including myself have asked Mike about it. All he will say is he has his own propriety alignment that behaves more like a transmission line than a ported design and he has put many many years work into the crossover trying and ruling out things like time alignment and minimum phase crossovers.
Thanks
Bill
30hz, 87dB, 8ohms, and a 1ft^3 cabinet seems to defy Hoffman's Iron Law. http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=56
Quote from: Face on November 29, 2011, 07:21:08 PM
Quote from: bhobba on November 29, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Face on November 29, 2011, 09:50:58 AM
Charles, I didn't mean to make a dig at Lenehan, it was the blanket statements made. For 4K I would consider http://www.vaporsound.com/#all or http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic3.html or even http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/lsim/index.php?s=lsim707. Plus, I'm having a hard time believing that Peerless 7" could dig down to 30hz. What's the speaker's efficiency?
About 87 db.
Yes that they go down to 30hz seems a bit incredulous and there is a discussion on the forum out in Australia about that right now and the fact they have virtually the same flat response 90% off axis - which also seems incredulous. Many people including myself have asked Mike about it. All he will say is he has his own propriety alignment that behaves more like a transmission line than a ported design and he has put many many years work into the crossover trying and ruling out things like time alignment and minimum phase crossovers.
Thanks
Bill
30hz, 87dB, 8ohms, and a 1ft^3 cabinet seems to defy Hoffman's Iron Law. http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=56
You are correct. Their actual sensitivity is 85dB (Mike's measurement of my pair came out at 85.2dB). If you actually read my review, you would see that I stated this clearly (and it is the only downside of this speaker for me). Also note that they are flat to 30Hz
in room - Mike's custom alignment takes maximum advantage of the room's own bass boost.
Regarding blanket statements, it was you who made one, not me. Unlike you I did state clearly it was my personal opinion, and also unlike you I actually have heard these speakers. Neither you nor anybody else is in a position to state an opinion on something they have no knowledge or experience of.
Quote from: Face on November 29, 2011, 07:21:08 PM30hz, 87dB, 8ohms, and a 1ft^3 cabinet seems to defy Hoffman's Iron Law. http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=56
Yea read your link but I am scratching my head why you think anything I wrote violates that. Since you mentioned Salk their Veracity TL goes to 34hz so 6 inch drivers are able to do it. What may be the issue is you are thinking in terms of anechoic response. In room response is something else and what these speakers are designed for. IMHO, and just my opinion only, concentrating on this rather than in room response is the reason some port designs 'boom'.
Both myself and Lee have seen the measured frequency response and they indeed do what is claimed.
Thanks
But
Quote from: topround on November 29, 2011, 07:04:28 PMNot that it matters at all , but I think you need big drivers with big cabinets to move air, the crossover trickery only fools you in the beginning, then it wears thin
All true, all true. The trick is to get the in room response right. As Richidoo has pointed out the ML1's have almost impossible to believe bass for their size. I had a pair as my main speakers for quite a while and you are often left scratching your head about the bass they produce. I have seen the measured response and they actually go to 40hz but if you push them hard they will not move sufficient air and only do 50 hz. Although I have not had the ML2's long enough to check this out I imagine something similar - push them hard and they will not be able to move enough air to do 30hz.
The reason they are able to do it is the propriety alignment that is designed for in room and not anechoic performance. Both Lee and myself quizzed Mike about it but that's, understandably, as far as he will go in explaining whats going on.
Thanks
Bill
I heard the little lenehans at Jim Hoggs place, and while they were very good the bass was amazing! for such a small speaker!, but it was at the expense of midrange clarity.
I am not knocking the little lenhans I thought what a speaker that size could do was simply amazing, but I kept wondering what a bigger pair would do. Not for more bass, but for breathing and allowing the midrange to seperate better from the bass, allow the instruments the ability to seperate better.
Seems there are more than a few shills present here on this site in favor of the speakers.
We need more listening because for many it may be hard to seperate reality from sales pitch.
Again I liked what I heard from the little lenhans and would love to hear the bigger ones one day.
Are they too expensive? Who is to say, I have a friend that sells(or tries) 40K$ preamps! The market will ultimately dictate if it is worth it or not.
Quote from: topround on November 30, 2011, 02:38:33 AMI am not knocking the little lenhans I thought what a speaker that size could do was simply amazing, but I kept wondering what a bigger pair would do. Not for more bass, but for breathing and allowing the midrange to seperate better from the bass, allow the instruments the ability to seperate better.
As I say in my review, that's basically what the ML2s do IMHO. To me, it sounded as though the ML1s kind of had to work a bit too hard to do all the remarkable stuff they do (especially the extraordinarily extended bass), but the ML2s sound effortless.
well then the ML 2 's must be a very fine speaker.
I heard Tidal speakers with Deuland caps and was very impressed. Very musical and effortless, almost sounds like there was very low distortion
Mike sorry but your use of the word schill is just not so. Sales pitch as well. As a dealer and distributor of the Lenahan line it is insulting to me to hear this.
My business model is built on truth NOT hype or sales pitch. Our in home demo program proves just that. No pressure no hype, we plug it in you listen you decide. Bill and ljmac are customers of Lenehan who want to share with us their experience with the speakers. They have zero affiliation with Lenehan other than paid happy customers.
Bill out of his own pocket sent the ML-1 Ref. speakers initially to Lonewolf his internet buddy. That is how this all started. When I first heard them I wanted to be a dealer.
Sorry you feel that way. No scolding intended just the truth.
charles
SMA
ok
OK then. :thumb: We still love ya. Now wait til ya all hear the ML-2R with Deuland inside.
I cannot wait to get a pair :drool:
charles
SMA
Hi Guys
A friend of mine finally got around to hearing my new ML2's.
Here is what he posted on the forum out here in Australia:
Having spent more than four hours yesterday in extreme musical bliss courtesy of Mike and Bill (whose ML2s have returned to the showroom), I would just like to add a few comments about these speakers.
I was always impressed by the ML1s but never really wanted to own a pair. The ML3s pushed me into "yes please I want some" but they failed the vital WAF test at the last moment. Mike suggested I wait for the ML2 as it would be less visually imposing and perhaps, in some areas, exceed the ML3 sonically.
The first ML2s I heard were ljmac's prior to completion. They were definitely interesting - clearly of the same essential nature as the ML3 but subtly different. I waited eagerly for Bill's pair to be finished so that I could have a proper listen. That opportunity finally arrived yesterday and I headed to the Gold Coast with my amp, my DAC and my digital source paraphernalia to see what the synergy would be like.
In the interest of keeping things brief... the speakers are excellent, but it's the speakers PLUS THE TOPPERS which delivered by far the most absorbing, entrancing, beautiful music listening experience I have ever had where live performers were not in the room. Without the toppers, the ML2s are everything ljmac said. With toppers, they cease to exist in three dimensional space. You can still hear characteristics of the speakers (like their quite understandable inability to plumb down towards 15Hz) and the electronics (like the slight upper-bass thickness of the Audiophilleo/Metrum combination) but the imaging and soundstage becomes utterly believable. Close your eyes and the instruments and voices are there, and so are you, but the room and the speakers aren't.
The level of detail and accuracy unleashed by the ML2 with toppers is better than anything I have ever heard, yet it was completely smooth and not in the slightest fatiguing. I would have listened for many more hours if I had the chance. A Mozart string quartet in 24/192 resolution from 2L recordings literally gave me goosebumps and made my breath catch in my throat. Regardless of genre or recording quality (even some 256kbit AAC files) the system delivered music.
I've asked Mike to provide me with a package price for ML2s like Bill's (Duelund bypass caps), toppers (final prototypes still being worked on) and ML2 stands (currently in design phase) so that I can start negotiating with SWMBO. Hopefully their smaller cabinets and sleek lines will get them past the hurdle that tripped up the ML3s.
Thanks
Bill
Nice review!
Bill, what are "the toppers" he's talking about?
Quote from: richidoo on December 19, 2011, 06:45:25 PMNice review! Bill, what are "the toppers" he's talking about?
Evidently its top secret right now exactly what it is - I know very little anyway. All I can say is I have heard them as well and with the toppers the ML2's are IMHO better than my 5 times the price ML3's without them.
Thanks
Bill
Cool! Time will reveal all
The toppers are resonant control devices that are put on top of the speaker.
Hoping to receive some prototypes soon to evaluate.
charles
Thanks for the clue Charles. Here they are:
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/images/topper.jpg)
$100 for 6 pieces
Looks fractal!
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/eichmann.htm
http://totallywired.co.nz/eichmann-toppers.html
Quote from: richidoo on December 20, 2011, 10:18:45 AM
Thanks for the clue Charles. Here they are:
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/images/topper.jpg)
$100 for 6 pieces
Looks fractal!
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/eichmann.htm
http://totallywired.co.nz/eichmann-toppers.html
Close, but no ciggie. The Lenehans are sealed units.
charles
Quote from: rollo on December 20, 2011, 09:43:38 AM
The toppers are resonant control devices that are put on top of the speaker.
Hoping to receive some prototypes soon to evaluate.
charles
Like Totem's "Beaks"...
https://www.google.com/search?q=totem+beaks
Quote from: rollo on December 20, 2011, 12:06:17 PM
Close, but no ciggie. The Lenehans are sealed units.
Why wouldn't they work on a sealed speaker? What are you talking about?
Quote from: richidoo on December 20, 2011, 02:06:51 PM
Quote from: rollo on December 20, 2011, 12:06:17 PM
Close, but no ciggie. The Lenehans are sealed units.
Why wouldn't they work on a sealed speaker? What are you talking about?
I was talking to Rollo about this earlier. The Eichmanns are not the "Toppers" he was talking about. Lenehan makes their own unit called a Topper than that is what he was referring to as the sealed unit, not the Lenehan speaker.
Ahhhh, OK...
That's ironic... Same function with same name from same country, only different. Thanks for the clarification Tom and Charles
It just so happens that I have a box of those Eichmann Toppers and have never tried them on my speakers before. So I figured what the heck , grabbed my son and we went down to the mancave for a trial. Well I don't understand how or why, but putting three of these things across the top of the speakers made an instantly noticeable difference in the sound. Boggles my mind - the speakers weigh 175 lbs each but putting these three two ounce devices in top of then can change the sound. :shock:
Definitely smoothed out the top end, but I'm not sure if it did so at the cost of detail. Need more listening with different musical selections before I render and opinion as to whether the change is for the good or the bad (and I also want to wait until my tube amp gets back from the shop and hear them with that driving the speakers), but the fact remains that the change was there.
Hi Guys
In the M L2 thread on the forum here in Aus there has been an interesting technical discussion going on. If you are interested in that sort of thing check it out:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/38993-Review-of-the-Brand-New-Lenehan-Audio-ML2?p=636040#post636040
Thanks
Bill
Thanks Bill! A great review, and nice lively discussion with Mike Lenehan participating
Quote from: richidoo on December 21, 2011, 07:26:31 AMThanks Bill! A great review, and nice lively discussion with Mike Lenehan participating
Thanks mate. Just noticed there is some interesting stuff on the page before the link I gave so thought I would post that as well in case people don't go backwards through the thread:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/38993-Review-of-the-Brand-New-Lenehan-Audio-ML2/page7
Thanks
Bill