Well due to my stubbornness and wallet I have avoided using an active crossover. Adding another cable, powercord, isolation, blah blah blah and crossover was not happening.
We were content with running the subs at 50Hz and the Pipedreams full range [ flat to 50Hz]. Sounded great to us. Actually last week while setting up the Kuzma it was commented on how well the integration of the sub was. We were all happy campers.
Until NOW. my buddy Greg P. brought over his Bryston 10B crossover for a test run using the newly acquired vintage Fried TL subs and his AR amp.
Well for for odd reason we could not get the Subs to produce any substantial output. :duh :duh. What puzzled us was that the subs connected with speaker wire to the Pipedreams produced the high frequencies through the high pass of the crossover. Made zero sense to us.Yes all crossover connections were right on.
Anyway pulled the Frieds and put back the Sunfire, matched the crossovers and OMG.
Well I stand corrected !!! Resistance is futile. The only way to fly. The Bryston 10B is a SS device. No singnature of it's own. The tubes flavor was carried through with no ill affect.
A tubed active crossover may or may not be a good thing. We shall see.
The clarity and focus with the crossover is spot on. The SET amps are not straining one bit . The bass is tighter and deeper. The midbass is kicking arse. The top as well is mre refined with addtional info. Never heard it until now. :shock: There is no going back after hearing an active. Never to late to learn. Now which crossover. The Nervosa begins. Any non Digital suggestions ????
charles
SMA
The Bryston isn't a bad piece at all. If you want something else and specifically configured, you can look at Marchand. They have a lot of options and they sound pretty good to me.
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm9.html
This one ups the ante a bit with stepped attenuators instead of pots - XM9LS-AA
And.... if you want tubes
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm26.html
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm126.html
Bryan
I worked through a few xovers and finally found what I wanted, sound-wise with a Marchand XM-9 and was similarly WOWed! After a couple of years, I happened upon a Marchand XM-26 which is a tube xover. Both xovers were silent and similar in set up and usage. The differences were subtle (as I'd expect be from a component that should add nothing to the signal) but the XM-26 comes across a bit more 'organic' on the high end and seemed to flesh out my SET amps better. The XM-9 sounds a bit more like what you would expect from a SS device. 2 things I liked about the XM-9 is that it has a damping adjustment that sets the gain at the xover point and came in handy when I was switching out drivers and horns. The other thing is that when switching off power, the XM-26 has a slight 'thump'. This only occurs because I keep the bass amps on 24/7 but it didn't happen with the XM-9.
My intention was to have something versatile to use while I tried out different driver and horn combinations and then build a passive xover. I settled on the speakers and did build a passive xover but preferred the active - go figure.
Did you ever get the Fried subs to work? (I've owned Frieds for 34 years and am still a fan.)
Charles, what happened to this quote posted last Friday in the QOL thread?
"I'm done. Yes thats right done. Living with the BSGT qol for a while now has convinced me to stop my audio journey.......From this point on no more Nervosa..... "
Well that lasted less than 48 hours. :rofl:
You of all people should know, Nervosa is never ending. :roll:
Quote from: tmazz on December 04, 2011, 07:22:51 PM
Charles, what happened to this quote posted last Friday in the QOL thread?
I was wondering the same thing!
The day Charlie will be done searching is December 21, 2012. The end of the world!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon
Love ya Charlie!!
Quote from: richidoo on December 04, 2011, 07:25:45 PM
Quote from: tmazz on December 04, 2011, 07:22:51 PM
Charles, what happened to this quote posted last Friday in the QOL thread?
I was wondering the same thing!
The day Charlie will be done searching is December 21, 2012. The end of the world!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon
Love ya Charlie!!
And the day he starts up again will be Dec.22nd when everybody tries to unload the gear the bought figuring the world would end before the credit card statement came. :rofl:
Crossovers don't count in the I'm done catergory. :roll:. OK you got me :duh, I thought I could slip this bye you guys :-P Man you guys are good. :rofl:.
The tubed Marchand is a contender. Whichever crossover is dead neutral is the one I desire. If it changes the tonality in any way or form of the "I'm Done" status, it goes South.
So attention all crossover contenters be neutral, get out of the way and be happy. That's right if ya want to reside in the qoled world ya better neutral. :-P.
charles
SMA
Quote from: JLM on December 04, 2011, 03:01:54 PM
Did you ever get the Fried subs to work? (I've owned Frieds for 34 years and am still a fan.)
JLMski Not yet. When we connected from Amp to the bi-amp terminals on the sub the sub had an extremely weak output. Later on as an experiment just to see if the subs worked at all, while the system was playing I connected the sub wires to my main speakers, they had plenty of output. :?
All was connected properly when using the high and low outputs of the crossover to sub and mains. The Frieds are 92 DB efficient and the Pipes 94 DB. So levels should be OK. The Sub is 4 Ohm the Pipes 6 Ohm connected to 8 Ohm taps on mains amp.
This should work , no ?? Very puzzling. :duh
charles
SMA
Quote from: tmazz on December 04, 2011, 07:22:51 PM
Charles, what happened to this quote posted last Friday in the QOL thread?
"I'm done. Yes that's right done. Living with the BSGT qol for a while now has convinced me to stop my audio journey.......From this point on no more Nervosa..... "
Well that lasted less than 48 hours. :rofl:
You of all people should know, Nervosa is never ending. :roll:
The Nervosa is over as I stated. Adding the crossover was something I know was required with the Pipes but I resisted. however resistance is futile.
Adding the crossover just proved to me that it should have been done at the onset. the Pipes are designed to be used with an active crossover. Crossed over at 65 HZ. I thought I could cheat and get by without.
I WAS DEAD WRONG. So no Nervosa really just a confirmation of what the Pipes require to sound their best. Now they do, oh my !! Nah nah nah nah nah. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
charles
SMA
Quote from: tmazz on December 04, 2011, 07:22:51 PM
Charles, what happened to this quote posted last Friday in the QOL thread?
"I'm done. Yes thats right done. Living with the BSGT qol for a while now has convinced me to stop my audio journey.......From this point on no more Nervosa..... "
Well that lasted less than 48 hours. :rofl:
You of all people should know, Nervosa is never ending. :roll:
If the sub is sealed consider using a Linkwitz transform to flatten low bass, and more importantly, lower the rolloff freq which will reduce group delay and make the bass sound clearer. The same circuit could also contain an active LP filter to crossover to the mains.
Mo' info: http://www.trueaudio.com/basslst2.htm
Sol was telling me last night about buffer ICs like LM833 which have no gain and no feedback and can buffer filter circuits like this without sucking out all the life like high gain opamps do.
Put a known line level signal on that same sub input to make sure it is not the problem. Is it the Bryston 10b that is feeding the sub directly? It probably has some kind of internal level control to help you avoid crawling back behind the sub to tune the level. rtfm :rofl:
Thanks Professor Richadoo. It works !!!!! Used 4ohm tap off AR classic 60 connected to crossover the same way as before, adjusted main speaker level to match. The Ar amp was hooked up the same way :? oh well bass in spades right now, Playing the "Thin Red Line" as we speak. Bass lines that will shake the house. Excellent disc to evaluate bass.
Just no contest to using one sub. A blessed day here in the hacienda. The Sunfire True sub Mk 2 is up for sale. $500 takes the cake.
charles
SMA
Glad you got it going. Was it a trim setting in the 10B?
I forgot it was TL subs, so forget about the transform circuit.
After further investigation the Bi-Amp in is crossed over at 110 HZ ouch. When used with the Lenehan ML-1 ref. Through the Amp in and satellite out the subs work fine.
For my use with the Pipes however disconnecting the woofer from the internal crossover and connecting directly to the speaker terminals does the trick.
The Fried subs are designed primarily to be used with the internal crossover and satellites crossed over at 110HZ. The Pipes when used that way just does not jive.
These subs are not what we are used to as far as slam and wow factor. According to Fried's literature they are designed to create space and dimension rather than bass impact.
With the Omega single driver speaker the subs are match made in heaven. The Omegas miss nothing at that high crossover point.
So as designed not good with the Pipes. Rich the trim setting helped dial it in better. I believe a volume control on the crossover would cure all ills except crossover point. The Bryston has a fixed bass output. One can only adjust the mains up or down. Not enough down though. The AR amp was an improvement however still not up to snuff. The Omega sub combo performed the best in the bass.
charles
SMA
Audiophile (at least the bulk of the market) tastes have changed in regards to bass. Nowadays bass is tighter and less exagerated (more European). What you have in the Frieds is a fine example of a blast from the past.
Could you comment more on the Omega sub (which one, lots of etc.)?
Quote from: JLM on December 10, 2011, 04:11:53 PM
Audiophile (at least the bulk of the market) tastes have changed in regards to bass. Nowadays bass is tighter and less exagerated (more European). What you have in the Frieds is a fine example of a blast from the past.
Bass is Bass is Bass!!! It needs to be
accurate, period! Simple to say, hard to implement.
Start with a good upright bass recording & try to emulate the real upright bass sound... a great starting point. Tighter / less exaggerated??? No. It needs to sound real... period!
Then onto organ recordings... oh boy...most homes (due to size constraints) cannot replicate those lonnnnnggggggg bass notes...
Good bass... you'll know when you hear it...
My $0.02,
Pete
JLM, the Omegas are single driver speakers with a -3db point of 50 HZ.
You are correct in describing the bass of the Frieds. They go down to 20HZ alright but in a different way. Not soft not bombastic just there when it's caled for.
Still experimenting.
charles
SMA