Has anybody ever heard an econowave speaker?
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?s=78ee07020f983a60badae2449db8b81a&t=215536
It uses a compression driver tweeter, loaded by a "progressive transition" profile horn invented by JBL and copied by others. Horizontal and vertical dispersion is excellent, power response is excellent because the horn plays down low enough to match dispersion of a 12" woofer, with minimal beaming, unlike many other horn designs which require multiple horns to cover the bandwidth to avoid beaming.
The crossover is relatively simple 2nd order, based on Wayne Parham design. There are several crossover versions for various tweeters, woofers and horns.
The cost to build an economy version of econowave is very low. There is a deluxe version which interests me with a larger horn and higher quality CD.
What intrigues me about this horn geometry versus some other more popular horns in the hifi realm is the almost universal observation by real people who have built them from scratch about how smooth is the treble sound. Clarity and dynamics are a given with a well designed horn system, but the high frequency harshness common with commercial horn speakers disqualifies them for many people.
The guy who conceived and promoted the concept of the Econowave DIY speaker over the last few years, forum name Zilch on AK and PE TechTalk and others, devoted a lot of time to the designs and helping many people build these for themselves. He was dedicated to developing low cost, high quality sound for DIYers based on his knowledge of pro audio parts. After reading about econowave for a week or so, I came across a horn review on Partsexpress which ended with "RIP Zilch..." Sure enough he died a year ago after a sudden bout with lung cancer. In his eulogy on AK, his close friend said that he and Zilch built speakers every weekend for 3 years. Zilch posted curves of his experiments and new ideas and answered questions patiently during that time. The information about speaker design, crossover theory, measurement techniques and seller resources is immense treasure for DIY speaker builders in those several econowave threads. The main econowave thread on AK is 800+ pages.
I'm thinking about incorporating the horn and design philosophy into my next speaker build. Any experiences or opinions welcome, thanks
Rich
Rich it looks like the deluxe version which uses the QSC 152i horn solves the vertical dispersion problem the smaller horn has and allows for a 1kHz cross-over which you really need to stay away from the woofers response problems that start at 1.5kHz.
Icould find a link to a graph of the frequency response with the larger horn. I was thinking it might be a little flatter than the smaller horn.
Dumb question,what kind of sensitivity is the Econowave supposed to have?
Scotty
There's also: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/horns.html :thumb:
STandard horn FR
(http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6713&stc=1&d=1265016471)
Deluxe horn FR
(http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7086&stc=1&d=1266713416)
with LPad adjustable tweeter levels shown
This is FR with the woofer I would use, Eminence 2512 (I already have 4 of them:)
(http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7764&stc=1&d=1269459597)
Econowave deluxe as designed has nominal 90dB sensitivity with one woofer and lots of padding in the HF XO. I am thinking about doing WTW which will help the SPL.
I'm looking at this as a baby step toward an all horn system in the future. I've seen those cool horns Mike, super nice! I'd have to hear it first though, as there are a lot of fairy tales in the audiophile horn world. I'm going to hear these 200Hz tractrix with TAD 2002s pretty soon.
(http://inlowsound.weebly.com/uploads/1/9/8/5/1985965/7994033.png?584)
I get the directivity goal that is realized by the Econowave design and that is a very nice response curve but I was hoping for a little more efficiency from a horn design. What frequency is the bass 3dB down point at.
Scotty
Only the HF is horn loaded, so it has to be padded down to match the woofer. There are a lot of different woofers used in various scratch designs and conversions, some of them are not very efficient. So F3 depends on woofer SPL, cab size and alignment. Econowave concept focuses on HF and crossover, and is intended to teach people how to do diy and speaker design, not really a rubber stamp design or kit.
I'm thinking about a WTW with two Eminence 2512s in parallel, which should make closer to 96dB at Fxo, with sealed bass EQed to 30-35.
Now TTTHHHAAATTTSS'S!!!what I'm talkin' about!
Scotty
:D :thumb:
Has anybody heard any econowave horns?
nope... but I'd be curious to hear them.... I'll buy the parts if you build the speakers? We can share custody where I get visitation rights until you cut them into pieces and build something else? :) My PE account gets me good pricing on most of these parts... for once better than just buying them as a consumer....
I just have no room for more speakers at my place... nursery furniture arrived at the store yesterday.... so I'm officially on final notice to clear the rest of the stuff out of here.... adding more speakers to my place would incur a wrath I'm not ready to experience right now... especially after just getting some Von Schweikerts..... but I've always been curious to hear a horn that didn't make me cringe or want to run out of the room... it hasn't happened yet....
the PE folks are now carrying the QSC waveguides at a premium price... but it looks like the SEOS waveguides are almost in production as well... some of those look cool....
Quote from: richidoo on January 18, 2012, 07:15:22 AM
Has anybody heard any econowave horns?
Yep. Wayne from Bolder Cables built a pair and brought them over one time. At first they were a bit bright for my tastes but a little twist of the L-Pad took care of that. There is a thread on AC with some thoughts of how they compared to the Abbey's and the Yorkville Unity's in my room.
I thought they sounded very good and with the re-coned Advent woofers he used they went quite a bit lower than my Abbey's but with the corresponding reduction in sensitivity.
I've been thinking a lot lately about something with a 15" driver and large horn. Possibly a JBL 2226 or an Altec 416. The Beyma TPL-150H interests me a lot though I wish there was a larger horn/waveguide for it.
mike
Thanks for the offer Shane. I'll start a thread in the DIY section after I've settled on my design. I intend to use the QSC horn. They are licensing it from QSC, plus profit it all ads up. I'm glad it's available again. I found some FG SEOS horns online, but what does SEOS stand for and who developed it?
Mike, I think I discovered econowave by reading that review about the 3 way comparo at your place. The early econowaves used a really inexpensive Selenium CD in the smaller 12x6 WG in keeping with the "econo" theme... so maybe that's what bugged you. Zilch said that the QSC i152 horn with DE250 was much better in every way, but pricier.
Here's a technical article about the heart of the econowave standard and deluxe, the Progressive Transition horn from JBL. The QSC 14x10 horn and Dayton JBL clones are based on this.
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=277
Rich,
I definitely heard the version with the small waveguide and the Selenium Ti tweeter. The Abbeys have the DE250 and they work pretty darn well.
Appreciate the JBL link, most informative. So I searched on one of the waveguides in the JBL doc and ended up here: http://www.fullcompass.com/product/395969.html
Now a pair of those in your living room would certainly wake the neighbors. ;)
Wicked! :twisted:
Quote from: doug s. on January 18, 2012, 08:50:30 PM
didja see they have re-stocks awailable at almost half price. wow... 8)
doug s.
That's less than $10/pound!
But somebody didn't like it. :(
I've jumped into the SEOS project with both feet. I participated in the initial group buy for the fiberglass iteration of the SEOS. Here's a couple of links that deal with the design and the group buy.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291022
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/166312-waveguides-horns.html
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uHBdAvU12s0/TsQGAihUkOI/AAAAAAAABkE/Y4Hc74ndcbc/s720/P1070841.JPG?gl=US)
I'm also participating in a group buy for AE woofers.
(http://www.aespeakers.com/images/drivers/TD15M-front.png)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1363566
The AE group buy is taking longer than expected to complete. You have to be patient in almost any GB situation. It took quite a few months to eventually get the SEOS 18 waveguides.
Of course I'll need compression drivers to power the waveguides so I'll either participate in a GB for the DE250 or try a CD that is being designed by participants in this Zilch legacy project.
I'll also need an active crossover.http://www.minidsp.com/.
In addition, a mic and software (REW or something else) will be required.
I hope I'm not getting in over my head. I'll have to spend the time necessary to tackle the learning curve to master the DSP. However, I think that this project will allow me to get superb sound without spending $$$. The first listening impressions of the SEOS 15/DE250 have been very positive. Here's a quote off the AVS forum
"
"Also, I went over to Bwaslo's house on Sunday to look over some other parts and projects. His SEOS-15 speakers with the 15" A&E woofer were completed. I can say without a doubt that these were the cleanest sounding speakers I've ever heard. Most of my listening has been done with dome style tweeters, but I have heard some Klipsch horns and things like that. But nothing quite as big as the SEOS-15. Super smooth, super clean, and I'm guessing they can handle a LOT more power than you'd need in a home.
What really surprised me was how how loud they were without me actually realizing it. The sound was great and I guess because it's so clean you don't realize the volume? Or is that what they mean by a "non fatiguing" speaker? While listening, I said something to Bill in a fairly loud voice, only to realize I needed to raise my voice a lot more than I thought to get over the volume of the speakers. In other words, they were much louder than I perceived them to be. I was really impressed and now my goal is to get a pair built for myself using the SEOS-12."
Sorta reminds you of the initial reviews of Geddes speakers, eh?
18" SEOS waveguides $350 max ...group buy
compression drivers ~$250 or less.
top quality 15" woofers ~$480 ..group buy
miniDSP $120
mic and software $150+
+materials for cabinet (mostly bass bins)
Probably about $1500 total plus my labor.
Subwoofers are mandatory so I should factor that into the cost. I already have a couple of subs so that wasn't an issue for me.
You'd easily be able to build a pair for less using cheaper woofers and the less expensive waveguides that will be available in future group buys by the same group. I feel that this group buy group will become more and more efficient as they gain experience and the waiting times will become much shorter. As it is, it's a good deal and a number of people, especially Erich H (AVS forum) are committing their time, uncompensated, in the spirit of DIY and many will reap the benefits.
...Roy
Nice Roy, thanks for your input. Are people liking that SEOS wg better than the Ewave horns?
I've used some AE woofers in the past, they were excellent quality. You can EQ the bass with minidsp so you won't need a sub.
Quote from: doug s. on January 18, 2012, 08:50:30 PM
didja see they have re-stocks awailable at almost half price. wow... 8)
doug s.
Oh I saw and purposely didn't link to those just in case I could figure out how to slide those in the door. :roll: Dedicated room or not, those would be a hard sell with the lady of the house.
Quote from: mgalusha on January 19, 2012, 01:33:44 PM
Quote from: doug s. on January 18, 2012, 08:50:30 PM
didja see they have re-stocks awailable at almost half price. wow... 8)
doug s.
Oh I saw and purposely didn't link to those just in case I could figure out how to slide those in the door. :roll: Dedicated room or not, those would be a hard sell with the lady of the house.
It is never good to stir the wrath of "She who must be obeyed." :rofl:
Quote from: tmazz on January 19, 2012, 02:15:22 PM
it is never good to stir the wrath of "She who must be obeyed." :rofl:
Indeed. She wasn't particularly amused upon hearing Rumpole of The Bailey use the term, especially when I mentioned how often it's used alongside WAF on audio forums. :rofl:
Quote from: mgalusha on January 19, 2012, 02:45:40 PM
Quote from: tmazz on January 19, 2012, 02:15:22 PM
it is never good to stir the wrath of "She who must be obeyed." :rofl:
Indeed. She wasn't particularly amused upon hearing Rumpole of The Bailey use the term, especially when I mentioned how often it's used alongside WAF on audio forums. :rofl:
Oops.........
Here's the problem, you have to sleep sometime.
Scotty
If Mama Bear ain't happy... nobody's happy. :D
SEOS = Super Elliptical Oblate Spheroid, designed by forum members of avsforum.com, based on Geddes oblate spheroid. SEOS has the OS throat, then flattened to reduce center to center distance between drivers, then made "super" in some additional way that I have not yet discovered. But the night is still young. I wonder if it still has straight walls with roundover at the throat and mouth like the original round Geddes horn?
edit: Yes it does have flat walls like Geddes OS. Roy, how does one get these SEOS 15 wg? I am reading the avs thread.
Quote from: richidoo on January 19, 2012, 04:52:30 PM
SEOS = Super Elliptical Oblate Spheroid, designed by forum members of avsforum.com, based on Geddes oblate spheroid. SEOS has the OS throat, then flattened to reduce center to center distance between drivers, then made "super" in some additional way that I have not yet discovered. But the night is still young. I wonder if it still has straight walls with roundover at the throat and mouth like the original round Geddes horn?
edit: Yes it does have flat walls like Geddes OS. Roy, how does one get these SEOS 15 wg? I am reading the avs thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21521182#post21521182
Scroll down till you see the post by
Erich H. He's the main man coordinating a number of group buys. PM him about the SEOS. The fiberglass units are shipped from Poland but like I said other options are in the works. The SEOS is available in almost any gel coat color and 6" to 18" sizes are available. I chose the 18" version because you can have a lower crossover point to the woofer.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguides/seos.html
The SEOS is certainly interesting. I have the urge for something larger and even more dynamic than the Abbeys and the 15 or 18 inch SEOS would enable such a project. Going to try and pick up a pair, thanks for posting this.
mike
Quote from: richidoo on January 19, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
Nice Roy, thanks for your input. Are people liking that SEOS wg better than the Ewave horns?
I've used some AE woofers in the past, they were excellent quality. You can EQ the bass with minidsp so you won't need a sub.
There aren't many SEOS based speakers built yet so very little feedback. However, some of the waveguides have been tested
and the directivity numbers look excellent. Here's a directivity plot for the SEOS-15.
[imghttp://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/group-buys/215196d1300743183-waveguides-horns-seos-15_4550.png][/img]
The AE-TD15M doesn't plumb to subwoofer depths so, like the Geddes speakers, subs will be necessary for most.
Thanks for the link Roy, I saw that measurement, looks like excellent dispersion. I look forward to hearing your impressions. Is your SEOS coming on this next pallet? Erich says if I want in I better say it quick, but I think I'll wait til I hear more opinions about the sound of it. By then the plastic SEOS will hopefully be available.
What I meant about the subs was that with active equalization of the bass (using your minidsp) you can boost the signal in the lower frequencies so that the TD15M becomes is the sub. It need not roll off as with traditional bass alignment. That driver has low Qts, high power rating and high efficiency. Get a strong amp, a big sealed box and beat your money's worth out of that bad boy. That's what it's designed for, but it's impossible to do that with passive xo.
Quote from: richidoo on January 20, 2012, 02:19:20 PM
Thanks for the link Roy, I saw that measurement, looks like excellent dispersion. I look forward to hearing your impressions. Is your SEOS coming on this next pallet? Erich says if I want in I better say it quick, but I think I'll wait til I hear more opinions about the sound of it. By then the plastic SEOS will hopefully be available.
What I meant about the subs was that with active equalization of the bass (using your minidsp) you can boost the signal in the lower frequencies so that the TD15M becomes is the sub. It need not roll off as with traditional bass alignment. That driver has low Qts, high power rating and high efficiency. Get a strong amp, a big sealed box and beat your money's worth out of that bad boy. That's what it's designed for, but it's impossible to do that with passive xo.
My SEOS 18's were part of the first shipment...they're sitting in the living room now, waiting for the woofers.
That would be great if the TD15M would play down, at least, into the 30's. I also have three subs so I'd get nice distributed bass. I'd probably need 2 miniDSP's to handle everything :-k.
The "super" in Superelliptical Oblate Spheroid came from our own JoshK, aka AudioJosh on avsforum. Superellipse is a real geometrical shape, which kinda squares off a real ellipse. This adds at least 2 benefits. First the distance from throat to mouth edge is not constant all the way around as it is in an axisymmetric (round) horn like Abbey's. Supposedly that constant radius to the edge emphasizes rollover distortion at one freq, similar to using a round baffle. The other benefit of squaring the ellipse is making the horn shorter in length for convenience in mounting it to a real speaker, it reduces the width of the horn by a large percentage.
The few reports about the sound quality are favorable. But there are no crossovers developed yet on that forum.
I've signed up to get a pair of these (SEOS) as well. I really have the urge to build some new speakers even though I like my Abbey's. Yep, it's a sickness.
Quote from: mgalusha on January 26, 2012, 10:47:48 AM
I've signed up to get a pair of these (SEOS) as well. I really have the urge to build some new speakers even though I like my Abbey's. Yep, it's a sickness.
Don't even get me started :)
As if all the Usher, Harbeth, and Von Schweikert speakers here weren't enough, now I'm partnering with Rich to have him build a couple designs of these so I can hear them, too. I'm quite happy with the speakers here and I honestly haven't heard a horn based design that I could live with long term.... but I'm just too curious not to jump in on this one...
I just ordered two different compression drivers to compare, the QSC horn, emailed Erich to get a set of SEOS 15s he has in stock right now, and other tidbits....
I think we might build one of the Econowave designs just for $hits and giggles to hear what the HT crowd is talking about... and the SEOS will likely end up as Rich's next speaker with the Radian compression driver and dual Eminences in an MTM custom floorstanding design...assuming it's worth anything....
but I'll bow out now and not steal any more of Rich's thunder on this one... he's much better with the photos and details of these builds... I'll just poke in now and again and read about it.... and show up to listen in person :) I'm sure Julie will be very happy with me that I'm enabling Rich :( hehehe She wanted me to tell him that his current speakers were the best so he'd stop.... HA! like that will ever happen :)
I've been on the fence about whether to build these, remembering some of the bad horn experiences I've had over the years. But there were a few promising moments that proved horns can "do it." Zilch's integrity, passion and spiritual vibration drew me in, and the SEOS evolution of his concept is technically very promising. I was gonna build a sealed version of my current speakers until the QSC horn captured my attention, so this isn't really a big detour for me.
So there'll be two speakers. A relatively simple Zilch/Schumaker Econowave DeLuxe floorstander with passive XO and ported bass based on this:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showpost.php?p=1637407&postcount=188
That will be a development mule for a fancier speaker to come later, if it sounds good.
Parts arrived, so check out the project thread:
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=3697.0
Good article about the uniform directivity concept, written by Wayne Parham, whose Pi speakers were Zilch's inspiration for E'wave.
http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
This is Parham's crossover design philosophy.
http://www.pispeakers.com/Speaker_Crossover.pdf
This is where Zilch started, with final values simulated and refined by Pete Schumaker.
Understanding the crossover design concept will make tweaking the crossover easier.
Funny ... I'd stumbled on Pi Speakers last week, and thought they'd be a good candidate for what I want. Interesting they are the inspiration of sorts for what you are building.
Parham has been doing it for a very long time, clever dude...
I heard from Erich last night, my SEOS 15's ship today. 8)
Quote from: mgalusha on January 26, 2012, 10:47:48 AM
I've signed up to get a pair of these (SEOS) as well. I really have the urge to build some new speakers even though I like my Abbey's. Yep, it's a sickness.
That's great Mike! Did you order bright red? :D
Quote from: richidoo on April 19, 2012, 07:32:17 AMDid you order bright red? :D
Nope, I'm boring, just basic black. ;)
Just noticed this thread and was also looking at the Econowave project. Decided to give Waynes Pi4 a try with upgraded JBL woofer and DE250. Went with mostly Auricaps and Jantzen and Mills in the crossover. Very pleased with result, still breaking things in. :)
(http://[url=http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/mrnick_2006/pi4003-4.jpg%5Dhttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/mrnick_2006/pi4003-4.jpg%5B/url%5D)
Welcome to AudioNervosa Nick!
Those look sweet, you did a great job. I'd love to hear Pi speakers sometime. What JBL driver is in yours?
Rich
Quote from: richidoo on April 23, 2012, 03:13:22 PM
Welcome to AudioNervosa Nick!
Those look sweet, you did a great job. I'd love to hear Pi speakers sometime. What JBL driver is in yours?
Rich
Thanks..... JBL 2226H
That's a nice driver!
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2226.pdf (http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2226.pdf)
Interesting that putting voltage to the black (-) input produces forward (outward?) cone motion. Isn't that the opposite of usual? Is that so it pumps air properly? Would it make a difference in a sealed box?
Edits
Linkwitz Riley 2nd order crossover is most common in pro applications, and requires the woofer to be reversed polarity from the tweeter. So the some mfgs reverse the colors on the posts so in field techs don't have to think consider the crossover design when replacing a burnt driver.
:yay2: