AudioNervosa

Hi everyone

I couldn't find a thread in the forum pertaining to my exact question so I figure I'd ask. Hopefully it doesn't piss off any members as they probably have seen it throughout the years in one form or another.

When you bought or built your power cords did you take into account what you paid or the dollar value of the equipment you were going to use the cord with? If so what were the percentages or amounts you spent on the cord vs. the cost/value of the equipment?

I'm trying to talk myself into auditioning/buying Triode Pete's power cords when my 2.1 channel rig is put back together. I'm wondering though if I'm overspending on the accessories for them since a lot of my gear isn't big buck high-end like the gear I've read used with Triode Pete's power cords in this forum and others.

Current cable I have on all my equipment that has an IEC connection.

Atlona Pro Home Theater Power Cable

http://www.amazon.com/Atlona-Home-Theater-Power-Cable/dp/tech-data/B000HBXALS/ref=de_a_smtd (http://www.amazon.com/Atlona-Home-Theater-Power-Cable/dp/tech-data/B000HBXALS/ref=de_a_smtd)

Gear I use these cords with.

Oppo BDP-83SE
Vincent SA-93 and Vincent SP-994

stock picture
(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2583/vincentsp993sa93facades.jpg)

Thanks everyone and I look fwd to the discussion.

I think going upscale on power cords and interconnects and speaker cables and tube rolling are all ways to fine tune a system once you are happy with the basic sound you are altready getting with the stock equipment. If you need more transparency, or tighter bass or more top end tinkle, or better soundstaging and imaging, then these are all inmprovable by playing with these other accessories.

As for cost, well that is all in one's personal budget. I don't think, for example that it makes sense to by a $2000 power cord if you have a $1000 amp. That extra money would be far better spent getting a better amp to start with. But Pete's cables are pretty cost effective and really sound nice on most systems where they have been tried, on both expensive and inexpensive equipment.

I think the easiest answer is to try it and see if you hear improvements.  Pete's cords are a great bang-for-the-buck deal but, of course, only if they do sound better (your ears, your system) and it fits your budget and sensibilities. 

If I'm being honest, it took me awhile to really hear how a good power cord really does improve the sound.  There was quite awhile where I was convinced that spending lots of $$ on wire, any wire, was the dark side of this hobby.   It took time and work on my part (with a little help from my friends ;-) to learn to hear the differences.  While the changes can occasionally be substantial, they are often subtle and take time to discern the differences.  I don't think you need a megabuck system to hear those differences.  But, hey, you've got a nice system there!

I'm such a... um... frugal person... it's the latent Yankee (Maine) in me... when I saw a box of equipment that was going to get sent to electronic recycling at work filled with power cords, I found several that were made with Belden 83802 (wire that Bob Crump used for his "Asylum Power Cord"... ~$20 later per cord for new connectors and I was off and running.

I've done a few... not a lot.

Dave

I bought 1 Black Sands Silver Ref 5 cables on the AN group buy soon after I started posting here. I shocked myself that I was gullible enough to spend so much money on power cables when I was already content with the vinyl POS that came with the amp (50W Cary integrated.)  I figured I did it just so I could be one of the guys. Then a month later I got some better mono amps and needed another PC. John was gracious to extend the GB price again, and I was able to compare the vinyl stock cords to the Black Sands. It was a minor but obvious improvement, so I found a way to justify the cost in my head.

I have since heard PCs that work better than the Black Sands, but I haven't upgraded yet. These are good enough for now. The best PC I have ever heard is JPS Kaptovator. It's unreal what it does, but it's wicked pricey, like $1200/m? JPS PowerAC+ is better than my Black Sand for the same price, but I keep the BS because I like having something from John in my system and it's plenty good enough for my needs.  

I mostly listen to Sol's integrated with captive vinyl cord, it is my favorite amp, so I question the "need" for upgrade cords. He is building a new prototype with IEC, so then want becomes need.

My experiences lead me to think that the PC's that come in the box with most gear can easily be bettered (same goes for IC's and speaker wire) and you don't have to spend a lot of money to get most of the improvement in sound that PC's can offer. Like capacitors and tubes, the highest quality and best designed PC's will allow for the best sound your component has to offer...but they tend to come with pretty high price tags.

Take a look at the PC that came with your amp, chances are that it was thrown in so you had something to get your amp up and running so you wouldn't have to go out and buy one (and probably be pissed about it). So its there for the company's goodwill and is as cheap as PC's come. Check out the materials, plug and cord and then go find a better quality PC like a hospital-grade cord - they run anywhere from $10-50 (I actually bought a box of Hirakawa HG cords for $3 ea. at a hamfest).

That modest step up the ladder in quality (and price) will get the sound of your amp within 10% or so of the best PC's out there and should allow you to hear the improvement over your freebie cord. Be aware that it wont be a revelatory experience...nothing 'Night and Day' and a noisy amp will still be noisy regardless on how much you spend on PC's. While subtle, you should be able to discern things like a quieter/blacker background, better bass control, cleaner, more defined image and perhaps a touch more detail in the mids. All very nuanced but there none the less and those are the things you can expect more of, in very small doses, as you move up the ladder and listen to better PC's (read: $$$).

The bottom line is that you don't have to spend a great deal of money to hear what a nice PC can do for your system and its up to you to determine at what point (and price) the marginal improvement is too slight for you and your gear. Have fun!

I totally agree with JBryan.  Another path to cheap entry is buying used.  There are a ton of them on A'gon or watch the classifieds here on AN or on AC.  In fact, I'll bet most of us audiophools have a closet full of spare PCs that we tried over the years.  Pangea anyone?

  Some good advice here. It is really hard to put a number on it. It is up to the buyer. However as Bob mentioned one does not spend more than the component.
  Just need to try some out. Actually a combo of JPS [ digital cord ] and Triode Wire Labs make a great combo. The PIAudio digital cord as well. Try 8ga TWL for Amp and either PIA or JPS on digital.
    Disclaimer; We are dealers for TWL and PIA.


charles
 

SG24:

I also agree with Bob & Rollo in regards to not spending more on a power cord than the component itself, but Pete's "TWL" cords are a GREAT value. Of course, system synergy and your ears/taste will be the determining factor - but that goes for any cords you audition.

Just my 2¢

SN

My rule of thumb: 10% of component cost is my budget for each associated cord.
So, a $4,k amp gets a $400 cord, and $400 in speaker cables.
A 2,k preamp gets a $200 IC and $200 PC.
etc.

I'm talking my real budget, what I spend... not msrp or what it should cost... just what it does cost, new or used.

So that's been my general rule of thumb for a while... and that hits my breakover point generally.  (Breakover point: That magic place where there is significant improvement, good synergy is there, but I know it could be a little better... but would cost a LOT more.)

This is all 'generally'.  Sometimes a cheap cord works great and other times an expensive one makes for an 'aha' moment.  In my system, I'm a little cheaper and a little more expensive here and there... The average is about 10%.

-C

Quote from: Carlman on April 22, 2012, 05:02:28 PM
My rule of thumb: 10% of component cost is my budget for each associated cord.
So, a $4,k amp gets a $400 cord, and $400 in speaker cables.
A 2,k preamp gets a $200 IC and $200 PC.
etc.

I'm talking my real budget, what I spend... not msrp or what it should cost... just what it does cost, new or used.

So that's been my general rule of thumb for a while... and that hits my breakover point generally.  (Breakover point: That magic place where there is significant improvement, good synergy is there, but I know it could be a little better... but would cost a LOT more.)

This is all 'generally'.  Sometimes a cheap cord works great and other times an expensive one makes for an 'aha' moment.  In my system, I'm a little cheaper and a little more expensive here and there... The average is about 10%.

-C

Carl

I like your 10% rule, but it brings up a question to me. What do you use as your component cost in this equation?

E.g.: My Naim NAP 250 amp cost me $700.00 used (yes it's an older model that goes back a good 20 years or so)
but it sold for $4750.00 new.

So does it "deserve" a $70.00 cord or a $475.00 cord. :?

Thanks!
SN

Campy, if you could sell your Naim and put those proceeds plus an extra $450 toward a new component that would be significantly better than your Naim, then that's the way to go I think.

If you really like the Naim and plan on keeping it, and a $450 cord makes a difference to your ears, and can swing the cash, then that may be your best tweaky upgrade option. Remember, you can always reuse that cord on another component down the road too.

I think the bottom line here is that when cords are cheap (like Pangea) you can look at them and evaluate their purchase as you would any other tweak. But when the price of the cord approached that of a component then you need to evaluate it the same way that you would any other hardware purchase and look at not only what kind of SQ improvement does it give me, but also think about what kind of SQ improvement could I get if I sold the original component and replaced it using a budget of what I sold it for plus what I would be paying for this prospective cord. The answer to that question is going to vary from situation to situation and from person to person in the same situation, but I think it is a though process that needs to be engaged if you are going to maximize the SQ potential of your system.

Quote from: BobM on April 23, 2012, 06:28:06 AM
Campy, if you could sell your Naim and put those proceeds plus an extra $450 toward a new component that would be significantly better than your Naim, then that's the way to go I think.

If you really like the Naim and plan on keeping it, and a $450 cord makes a difference to your ears, and can swing the cash, then that may be your best tweaky upgrade option. Remember, you can always reuse that cord on another component down the road too.

Thanks Bob, but I was only using my system as an example, so I could illustrate my question to Carl better.  At this point in time, I have no intention of replacing my Naim amp, nor buying a new power cord for it.  (At least not anytime soon.  I'm still trying to get a "baseline" on my system with my upgraded Von Schweikerts still breaking in - so the last thing I need to do is add more variables to the mix!) BTW - I have one of Pete's TWL 8ga. cords there now and things sound just fine.  :thumb:

Bill

I would go with the 'new' price.. or close to it for my 10% rule.  If I got a 4,k amp for $400 in an estate sale, I'd still give it the full budget for cables.... if not more due to the savings on the component. :)  

I'll be giving Pete's cord a listen tomorrow morning thanks to Rich.  I'll probably swap it in and out of my preamp, that's where the most difference is usually heard.

-C

Quote from: Carlman on April 23, 2012, 08:13:10 AM
I would go with the 'new' price.. or close to it for my 10% rule.  If I got a 4,k amp for $400 in an estate sale, I'd still give it the full budget for cables.... if not more due to the savings on the component. :)  

I'll be giving Pete's cord a listen tomorrow morning thanks to Rich.  I'll probably swap it in and out of my preamp, that's where the most difference is usually heard.

-C

Thanks for the clarification, Carl.  I kinda figured that (new value) but wanted to know for sure. :)

P.S. - I think you will like Pete's cord.  FWIW, his 8ga. TWL cord worked best for me on my amp.

ha, no problem.. just my rule, for whatever that's worth... great place to start (and end up) for me.

I have a McIntosh amp... which I can't hear much difference swapping PC's on it... In my system, the pre is the truth-teller... simple tube circuit (Belles 21a)

I'll try again though.. you never know!  It's been a long time since I compared PC's.

-C

  Rich I will agree that the JPS is the powercord to beat. Everything sounds broken in comparison. My suggestion do not listen to one,. It will grate on you creating the Nervosa of all times. It is that good. Price a whole different story. If one is well suited to purchase one God Bless. I would need four for the amps and preamp.
    hope to have some samples to test out. I really need to know how TWL cords compare. At approx 10 times the cost it will prove very interesting.
     When I receive them I will have a get together and let the ears of others be the judge.
     


charles

I agree with Rich that the JPS Kaptovator is in a league of its own.  Gobs and gobs of detail and definition yet no glare nor edge as far as I could tell.  One of the few times where I've swapped a power cord and was amazed by how much it immediately changed the sound.   

I have no doubt that it is about as different a power cord from Pete's TWL cords as I've heard.  Definitely a yin/yang thing there.  As much as I was blown away when I tried a Kaptovator in my system, I've not had the opportunity to listen long term (nor could my bank account afford it ;-).  

It'll be interesting to get your take on Pete's cords, Charles.

Forget the math, just ask Pete to send you a TWL.

I bought a 12+ and sampled the 7+ and was blown away, especially by the 7+.

Quote from: etcarroll on May 21, 2012, 05:13:53 AM
Forget the math, just ask Pete to send you a TWL.

I bought a 12+ and sampled the 7+ and was blown away, especially by the 7+.

+1

Pete is a sick minded evil genius! Don't you forget it. I bet he sleeps with battery clamps in his nipples drawing 110 volts all night. He's sick!

Quote from: machinehead on May 21, 2012, 07:28:33 AM
Pete is a sick minded evil genius! Don't you forget it. I bet he sleeps with battery clamps in his nipples drawing 110 volts all night. He's sick!

110 volts is for wimps. 220 for Pete

There's an image I didn't need in my mind.  :duh

Have to go wash my brain out with soap.

  As of now every component in our system is TWL. Tried my old reference Omega Mikro active against the TWL. A brighter presentation overall with the Omega. The Omega seems to suit my darker sounding components however after numerous A to B to A listening the TWL was the overall choice for our system.
    Awaiting the 7GA for the Arions. Will report back when received and fully broken in. BTW it takes 400+ for any TWL PC to sound its best. After a 500 hour break-in they stop changing. Be patient. It should change at least three times before settling in.

charles

Quote from: etcarroll on May 21, 2012, 08:08:11 AM
There's an image I didn't need in my mind.  :duh

Have to go wash my brain out with soap.

lol!

Quote from: etcarroll on May 21, 2012, 08:08:11 AM
There's an image I didn't need in my mind.  :duh

Have to go wash my brain out with soap.

Just another day at TWL  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I like AN so much better!!! Im sure if I was still allowed over at that other place that shall not be named (like the bad guy from Harry Potter) I would have been boiled alive for trying to be funny!
M

Quote from: machinehead on May 21, 2012, 11:37:22 AM
I like AN so much better!!! I'm sure if I was still allowed over at that other place that shall not be named (like the bad guy from Harry Potter) I would have been boiled alive for trying to be funny!
M

Yes sirree tarred and feathered actually. No scolding for talking cables either. Spread the word.
    AN is the place to learn with open eyes. We have a few flat earthers here however no flame wars. No one appears to rain on anther's parade. We can disagree with class on AN.
    charles

Quote from: machinehead on May 21, 2012, 11:37:22 AM
I like AN so much better!!! Im sure if I was still allowed over at that other place that shall not be named (like the bad guy from Harry Potter) I would have been boiled alive for trying to be funny!
M

........ Or forced to listen to Bryston gear with Topround.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Necro the OP question. A good place to start is about 250 bucks. You can get cheaper but you need to scope them out. 250 bucks is even a good price for a receiver priced under a grand IMO. I would only consider price to component on the real uber price gear. Like if you are going to spend 20k on an amp you will probably end up with a pc that's over a grand at least.

I don't like to think of it as a price ratio... What if you feel a less expensive cord sounds better?Try some different cords at different price points, keep the one YOU feel sounds the best in YOUR system with YOUR ears ;)

Hot Damn. I totally forgot about this thread. Thanks everyone for all the replies. It really helps me out a lot to figure things out. I'm getting swamped at work now but will reply in more detail.

I'm with Barry, it's not about price, it's about what works best.
I've heard cheap plastic IC's sound better than some well-liked and more expensive sets... so, $1 cables sounded more accurate than $50 cables in that comparison... And I've heard $4000 cables sound more like music to my ears than $500 cables..

It's all about whether the gear you're choosing brings you closer to what YOU want to hear, rather than what some abstract/obscure point of reference is.  

I think a lot of folks get lost trying to achieve some great sound and don't really know what that is... just 'better'... Once you start enjoying the music, you only need to work to eliminate distractions to an emotional connection with the music.  If you cannot achieve that connection, it is frustrating... and expensive... :(  But it is a learning experience. :)

  Well I'll join in as well. It is in the eye of the beholder, not the price. Some like to use cables to add coloration and others seek neutrality. The only way to find out is to experiment. It is not carved in stone that cable "A" will react to all systems in the same way.
  For me it is the cable that seems to get out of the way allowing more info to come through. Saying that the weight and body most not be lost along the way.
  Using test method of comparing "A" to "B" then to "A" again seems to be the tell all.
   If one has the time to try several designs all the merrier. It will be a learning experience.
   My Epiphany came when an all JPS cabled system [ mine ] was heard compared to what I thought sounded really good. I was not prepared for the change in presentation. What stopped me was the $9600 for the cables. Price does have its place unfortunately for most.
   What amazes me the most is when one is really digging their sound. I mean your getting emotional impact and all of a sudden you insert a different cable whether PC , IC or speaker and the sound is better to your ears.
  Some cabling will make your system sound Hi Fi in direct comparison. It boggles the mind.


charles