Hi Guys
Right now I am not in my usual abode at Redland Bay here in Aus but rather helping a friend set up his Home Theater system in our nations capital, Canberra. It was expected to take 3-4 weeks nearly 2 months ago. But what happened is the tenant left his investment property and since every day it remains vacant costs that has been his number one priority - not setting up his system. He is advertising for a tenant this weekend and hopefully he can concentrate on setting up his system and I will be back in Redland Bay in a couple of weeks.
My friend is not 100% happy with the amps we have tried and have been looking at other amps. So far the best we like is my good old dependable Patek - the other amps were simply too slow for these boyos - which were the Plessus and Rotel 5 Channel he had before. On careful listening we also noticed some milkiness in the Plessus - but then again these are $1K amps not really meant for his ML3 Reference - so far the best amp I have heard on it is some Earle Weston (he is a guy that hand builds amps here in Aus) Tempest Monoblocks that impressed me enough to order a pair. Unfortunately my friend was less impressed so is still searching.
Then we both noticed this new NAD C390DD Direct Digital DAC/Amplifier which not only seemed a good choice to check out as far as amps go but had the digital front end of the M51 everyone in Aus (and elsewhere) is raving about. So we decided on one of those and will keep people appraised with what we find out. My gut tells me it will be a little off my Playback Designs or PDX feeding one of my better amps such as the NAKSA etc but it will get close enough for an all up cost much less than those to be killer value - anyway we will see. It is even possible it could equal it or even exceed it which is the sort of thing I love discovering - less expensive gear up to the level of much more expensive stuff.
Getting it from a dealer in Sydney, and he is saying it should be in Tuesday and we will either get it delivered or take the trip down to pick it up. More to follow when we get our hot little hands on it.
Thanks
Bill
Cool... so this is a Dac amp vs the M51 which is a Dac pre...
look forward to your impressions.
M
Haven't got the m51 yet - this is just the DAC/Amp
Thanks
Bill
Hi Guys
Well its arrived. A few hiccups whose resolution is of interest to guys here in Aus but of no value to you guys so I will not mention it here.
Ok - how does it sound. Neutral, neutral, and even more neutral. This is the most neutral DAC and amp combination I have heard - period - no SS steeliness, no valve warmth - all these adjectives simply do not apply. Its not as a fast as my Patek but still pretty darn fast - but it does does not have that amps thinness and slight dryness either. How would I describe it - like a power version of the Metrum is my best guess at this stage. Very resolving with great slam - not as resolving as my Patek and PDX which is the most resolving thing I have heard to date in my system - but still really resovling. I think my Patek and Playback Designs could be faster again but I didn't try that DAC on my Patek - I used my Trafomatic SET when I heard that. My Naquadria it likely even faster again but it is being modded right now to accept standard cable terminations so can't check it out - that will need to wait until I get back to Brisbane.
Another interesting feature that the specs do not make clear is it in fact has pre-outs so you can use it as a DAC and have an upgrade path. I will check it out that way a bit later.
I am using its USB input right now but would really love to see what my Off-Ramp does - however its SPDIF is on the blink - possibly something broke due to twisting the cable on and off - it happened once before but don't really know until I can get a tech to look at it which needs to wait until I return to Brisbane where I have a tech I trust. I may be able to get it working with AES/EBU but need to get a cable.
I have not heard a DAC amp combination at this price point that I would rate better - it could perhaps be the leader at this price point. The Metrum with an Audiophellio and Patek costs about that but I think this may have the edge. A must audition against any DAC amp combination you were thinking of getting at about the $3k price point.
More to follow as listening continues.
Thanks
Bill
Very cool. Always good to learn about new ways of getting there. Looking forward to more info.
I finally managed to get my Off-Ramp working via AES/EBU and it indeed makes a difference - not as great as the WFS or Metrum - but you most definitely can easily hear it over its internal USB.
The bass is better, greater detail is apparent, a slight treble glare is removed you do not notice until you hear it removed and it sounds slightly faster. My friend who does not like the amp compared to a Patek, which is demon fast, agreed it was indeed better and the improvements above were also apparent to his ears. However it was not enough for him to change his mind about it. My view is it is meatier than the Patek, which has a thin ephemeral quality and a slight dry character but, yea, is extremely fast. The bass, especially via the Off-Ramp, is indeed better, and I personally rate it above the combination of my Metrum and Patek, but I do prefer the Patek and my much more expensive PDX whose speed synergises with the Patek - however it is clear personal preferences will vary.
Should you get an Off-Ramp with one of these? I personally would but it raises the price to $5K and you can get some pretty good DAC and amp combinations for that price so a comparison against stuff in that price range is definitely advised - for example for that price you can get a Patek and PDX which to my ears is better. I would be remiss however if I did not mention that is to my ears - a very experienced audiophile of my acquaintance does not like that combination much at all - horses for courses. When I return to Brisbane a mate who has an Audiophilleo will allow it to be checked out on that and indeed hopefully he can borrow it and give his own write up which would be good because he had this amps bigger brother, the M2, in his system for a while. But from my previous experience with an Audiophilleo at only about $500.00 it would almost certainly be well worthwhile.
I tried the bass management in the NAD and can report it is excellent. I was able to integrate a subwoffer no problem and is a big plus for this amp. You can get two subwoffers and some small bookshelves for a system that easily gives all the bass you could want.
The HDMI inputs are also excellent - I watched in two channel home theater mode and it was very enjoyable - even my friend liked it that way for some reason - possibly because the extra meatiness made the vocals more intelligible. Combined with the subwoffer integration this is pretty much the perfect device for two channel home theater.
Thanks
Bill
Heard the NAD today on a speaker manufacturer I know reference system with some new speakers he is working on. It has power regeneration and conditioning and used $20K Mac501's as amps with some pretty impressive isolation platforms on all the stuff. Its a very transparent piece of kit. Anyway a preliminary comparison was done with a PDX, Playback Designs MPD3, and the NAD. To cut a long story short as far as what is relevant to this thread, the NAD was bit of a different beast in this rig - the hardness gone, the treble emphasis close to gone - and this was without the Off-Ramp. It was felt it was quite close to the Playback Designs and Mac 501's which considering the price is pretty darn amazing. Why the jump in performance - maybe its the power conditioner or the isolation platforms - it was hard to know. Anyway it was felt a bit more investigation needs to be done and that is exactly whats going to happen.
Watch this space.
Thanks
Bill
Hi Guys (and of course Gals)
Well, well, well, things have now got really interesting. I lent the amp to a friend (he posts as Kdoot out here in Aus) and he found a setting change:
Menu -> Setup -> Speaker Compensation set to 8 ohms instead of 4 - the speakers they were used on were 8 ohms.
Evidently when it was done - holey (insert expletive) Batman - the sound improved a HUGE amount. It was felt it was now above a Playback Designs DAC and Mac 501's - amazing. Even more amazing was that system used a PDX and Mac 501's as its reference - and they were under threat. Evidently the only thing that saved them was a very slight (and the person I spoke to emphasized very slight) trace of a SS mechanical type sound (yes they could detect a very slight departure from strict neutrality). Careful listening did show - yes the reference DAC and amp were better - but that this amp got in the same ballpark was - well mind-blowing really. The reviews of the M2 said it was really close to some much more expensive separates and for once what reviewers say seems to be true.
Anyway my friend took it away and he is what he posted over in Aus.
For ages I've wanted to hear an NAD M2 with some Lenehan ML3 speakers. Having had both products in my home at different times, I know enough to be almost terrified of what that combination might do. (Apparently there is one guy around here somewhere using these together, and there's been no unexplained seismic tremors or spontaneous black hole formation so I guess it must have gone OK.) But anyway today I got to put their little brothers together: C390DD and ML2s. With a battery-powered Audiophilleo 2 as their nerdy little friend.
Hory clap. The dynamic range is unbelievable. ML2s are not particularly efficient speakers (~86dBm I think) but the 390 had them absolutely stomping, slamming and shaking the room with the kind of controlled power that class D is renowned for. And now here at home with my 92dBm Aurora 3s I can turn the dial down to -69dB, stick my ear to the tweeter and still hear more music than hiss.
Compared to the McIntosh 501 monoblocks (hooked up to the C390's pre-outs), the NAD's amplification stage is a little less composed under pressure. Well - duh. The Macs are rated for over three times the power. And the Macs have a slightly smoother, silkier finish to the sound, just as you might expect when comparing a digitally-switched circuit to a linear-transistor-transformer one. But frankly, initial impressions are that the C390DD is in the same league. Different, yes, but comparable.
It's hard to write about the 390 because it's so technically different to all the other components I usually play with. The "DAC stage" is not an R2R multi-bit, nor a typical delta-sigma. It's more like the second than the first, but even that gives the wrong impression because of the unique digital feedback circuit. In essence it's a digital-to-digital (PCM-to-PWM?) converter with highly capable processing for things like gain adjustment and parametric EQ, plus a just-in-time corrective digital input which responds instantly to any deviant trends at the speaker terminals. And it just sounds... right.
Take all the sonic things I like about my Metrum Octave and combine them with all the sonic things I like about the PDX, toss them in a box with an iron-fisted descendent of class D amps and that pretty much sums up my first thoughts.
I did some serious back-and-forth switching between the internal USB and my AP2. Didn't have an opportunity to do it blind, but I am pretty convinced that the AP2 brought an improvement which, while not perceptible in terms of frequency response or loudness or PRAT etc, took the system a bit further away from one which projected audio information at me towards one which created an audio experience around me. It brought the soundstage into better focus and made the performance more convincing. I really like that.
So, bottom line: if I could spend my hifi budget over again, the C390DD is what I'd buy to replace my current amp and DAC and I'd have a whole lot of coin left over. It's an absolute fricking bargain with flat-out brilliant performance.
Now I will need to get it into my system with this new setting to see what the go is but I trust the ears of these people and it would seem this amp is friggen good value - might be the amp you get without even thinking and see if you can find something that sounds better in your system. My guess though is it may take a while.
Thanks
Bill
Bill sounds really great!. Its not the same DAC as is in the M51 is it? Maybe they are similar?
Quote from: machinehead on May 16, 2012, 06:06:45 AM
Bill sounds really great!. Its not the same DAC as is in the M51 is it? Maybe they are similar?
Up until the the pre outs it is exactly the same - nada - no difference. I have checked it out as a pure DAC and my reference DAC, a Level 2 PDX, was under threat when fed with the Off-Ramp. And it was thought it had the edge on a Playback Designs but more investigation needs to be done - the PD is very interesting in its own right - it responds to upsampling like no other DAC I ever heard. At 44.1 the PDX clobbers it but upsampled to 384 and its a lot closer - but the PDX still has the edge. I have heard DSD is even better again.
Thanks
Bill
I have done extensive listening to MC501's. I own the MC402, which is a (small) notch down in overall finesse and control. The 501's are among the top 3 amps I've ever heard in a well setup system. It IS a personal preference, of course.
So, the NAD is in the same league sonically as the 501's? That's really saying something to me. I'd be interested to see if that was still the case after listening in his own system for a month or 2. There is such a weight and presence with the Mc amps that I would imagine the listener would miss.
Regardless of my ramblings, I'm glad to hear there was a real comparison and a class D is fairing this well. I'm really interested to hear the Hypex Ncore stuff now. :)
-C
Me too, on both counts. The C390DD is very interesting to me, as is the M2. I'd love to compare it in my system to my modded Tact 2150 (if it will sync with my Tact 2.2x for room correction).
I really enjoy the Tact amps and think that if one is only using digital sources, the true digital amps make a lot of sense.
The ncore is also interesting, maybe matched with the M51 and compared to the C390DD or M2.
Quote from: Carlman on May 16, 2012, 05:46:25 PMI have done extensive listening to MC501's. I own the MC402, which is a (small) notch down in overall finesse and control. The 501's are among the top 3 amps I've ever heard in a well setup system. It IS a personal preference, of course.
So, the NAD is in the same league sonically as the 501's? That's really saying something to me. I'd be interested to see if that was still the case after listening in his own system for a month or 2. There is such a weight and presence with the Mc amps that I would imagine the listener would miss.
Regardless of my ramblings, I'm glad to hear there was a real comparison and a class D is fairing this well. I'm really interested to hear the Hypex Ncore stuff now. :)
The person concerned uses Mac 501's in his reference system as a speaker manufacturer and has done so for many years. He knows the Mac's very very well and indeed as you would expect rates them very highly. For him to say what he did is something and worthy of being taken quite seriously.
Of course myself and others have heard it as well and agree - but that does not carry quite the same weight. I too rate the 501's as one of the finest amps I have ever heard along with a heavily modified VAF and my Trafomatic (but for different reasons).
However a little birdie told me (OK it was Rollo - you got it out of me) the Arion 500 could be better again and I have one on the way out - so watch out for that comparison.
Thanks
Bill
Recently got my Off-Ramp working via SPDIF using my upmarket SPDIF cable instead of AES EBU. Holey Carp Batman - unreal improvement. Really liquid and fluid now but with dynamics that slams you in the chest. Never heard anything like this before. It nearly bought tears to my eyes. It now sounds like my PDX when fed via I2S from the Off-Ramp into a really high quality amp such as MAC 501's - but better - yea better. This could be the best reproduction I have ever heard. I wont go on about it - you must experience it for yourself.
Thanks
Bill
YouTube of the C390DD... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jJR-8sv1pM#ws)
But can it peel a potato ?? Shoot man it does seem like the Swiss Army knife in Audio.
The NAD house sound has always been a pleasant one to my ears. It was always a matter of omission than inferior sonics. The extremes of the touted gear won out overall however never disappointed. Handed down our NAD intergrated to our Son. Using with Advent speakers. Sounds just fine.
NOW this is innovation. Good post Chris. Only $2600 available at Crutchfield. Arions $6000, PDX $4400, NAD $2600. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Now is it love at first sight, will the love continue ? time will tell.
charles
Quote from: rollo on May 24, 2012, 08:38:20 AMNOW this is innovation. Good post Chris. Only $2600 available at Crutchfield. Arions $6000, PDX $4400, NAD $2600. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Now is it love at first sight, will the love continue ? time will tell.
Well put.
A couple of points though. I will be very surprised if it bests the PDX into the Arion - VERY surprised - but you never know. This will be one of the first things I check out when my Arion finally arrives. I am also getting my PDX tricked out with Bybees. I got some Bybees fitted to my Canberra friends PDX on the output and it made a quite noticeable difference. I am now getting mine fitted not only on the output but on the PS and battery power into the USB.
To get the type of up there performance that impressed the bejesus out of me you need the Off-Ramp which costs $2K. The Audiophellio 2 worked well from reports - but not as good as the Off-Ramp.
Thsanks
Bill
A fellow member of our forum here in Aus, Rob, popped on over today and bought a very interesting goodie - a Bybee modified Spectron.
First we listened to my latest toy the NAD C390DD via my Off-Ramp and Rob was gobsmaked how good it was for its pittance and equally astounded the difference the Off-Ramp made - the difference not subtle - not subtle at all. Anyway we switched over to using the Spectron fed by the pre outs of the NAD. At first I thought good - but was it better than the NAD - a little different - clean, clear, and very precise. Anyway I need not have worried - further listening showed it was better - its cleanliness and purity grows on you and you find yourself relaxing into it. Also after a while you realize the NAD had the slightest trace of digital glare the Spectron removes. We popped the Playback Designs on and - well for our taste it had a far too relaxed and laid back sound. Next was the PDX and it was really sweet - very very enjoyable to listen to. We sat there listening to various tracks and we both agreed this was the best sound of the day. This was better than Mac 501's - I suspect I know why I think the NAD and now the Spectron was better - the 501's have a bit of a tubey midrange (it has valve output transformers) and both the NAD and Spectron just give you what's there - warts and all which when fed with DAC's like this sounds a bit less artificial for want of a better word - anyway I liked it better.
Interestingly my new digital amps - the Arion 500's - have arrived - they are monoblocks and customs here in Aus stopped one (the other arrived fine) so it it needs to be investigated how to get it released. That will be sorted out I am sure and evidently the person that got them in for me is under strict instuctions not to let anyone hear them until they have at least 300 hours on them. Anyway once it is all sorted out there will be an amp shootout and Rob has agreed to bring his Spectron along to it. It will be between the NAD, Spectron, Arion and Mac 501's. Watch out for it.
Thanks
Bill
That's exciting. Have fun Bill
Quote from: richidoo on May 26, 2012, 09:21:39 PM
That's exciting. Have fun Bill
Always - always.
My new ML2's are nearing completion and I haven't forgotten the promise to get them out for you guys to hear. Haven't said anything because its taken so long to eventuate and don't want to get anyone's hopes up it will be soon. But hopefully not long now - more information when it actually happens.
Thanks
Bill
Bill those Arions will take some hours to sound their best. The Cardas output cap changes several times and will settle somewhere between 400 to 500 hours.
My personal Arions have replaced the Cyber 211 in my system. I never thought a class "D" hybrid could do that. freaked me out actually. I'm a tubey kind of guy. Still shaking my head. Hopefully you will have a similar experience.
charles
Still waiting for it to clear customs here in Aus - hopefully soon now.
It will be on continuous burn in for at least 300 hours before any kind of serious listening is done.
The guy doing the burn in for me had a peek inside and noticed the Cardas - he wants to eventually replace it with Duelund VSF Copper - but that's for a while down the track.
Looking at a shootout with the NAD, Spectron, Mac's, and the NCore - should be really interesting.
Heard the ML2 References for the first time - as you would say - my my - dynamics like a thunderclap that makes any material sound loud even if it isnt and midrange to die for.
Thanks
Bill
The NAC C390DD received an excellent review from Robert Harley in the current issue of "The Absolute Sound". It's his go-to integrated at the moment.
Jim
Yea - someone pointed that out and because of that I got the issue. Very interesting read. If anyone wants a copy drop me a line and I will email it.
Just an update - we redid the comparison with the PDX and MAC's. Sorry - even with the Off-Ramp it was better - so much for judging things from memory. Still excellent value for money though and an up there sound.
Thanks
Bill