Considering an earlier thread here on AN regarding the impending demise of CD's, what direction would you take in replacing your current digital source set-up and why?
• CD Player
• Transport & DAC
• Computer Based
Please keep in mind that I (like many of you) own a reasonably good sized CD collection already. I'd also like to keep the options under the $1,500.00 mark, if possible?
Ideas/suggestions?
P.S. - Admins: if this needs to be posted elsewhere, please move it. Thanks! - SN
IMO you can't be a music lover and ignore what internet radio has to offer, so my vote goes for #3 on your list.
Since that includes a dac too (usually), you can have your transport or cd player to spin the silver things, covering #s 1 and 2 as well.
-Mike
Thanks, Mike. As far as a computer based front end goes, I'll need to tap into everyone's expertise here. I really don't know what's needed to set-up my system like this. :? I guess that I'm just an "old school audiofool" that can't imagine a computer nestled into his audio rack for a digital source. :roll: Geez, just when I thought the WAF couldn't get any tougher! :shock:
At the same time, I don't want to "re-invent the wheel" here. If there's an earlier thread that gives these specifics, please post it and I will pursue the computer audio part of the topic further from there.
SN
I've been doing computer audio so long I can't imagine going in another direction... just a simpler, easier solution rather than a big PC and monitor...
I'm working on something now that might just be the ticket... Look up Voyager MPS and the little Ubuntu player boxes out there... Big learning curve but once it's setup, it's done... and you can control your music from a smart phone or tablet.
I still would like a nice cd transport for the occasional convenience if someone brings a cd over... I don't like/want/need to rip every cd that comes into my house... then have to delete it later. The SQ has to be up to snuff with the PC, though... which means I need a pretty nice transport, which is tough to find lately.
I'd work in this order:
External DAC if you don't have one. I would listen to a few in your system.
Then choose transport type.
Some CD players that sound awesome also have digital (sometimes analog) inputs also, and can be your preamp.
The only CD player I'd buy is a BAT VK-5DSE ($5,500 msrp).
-C
My setup is Raid 5, 6TB for music. to desktop computer towifi to squeezebox touch to external DAC. You could just go laptop to DAC to rest of the system. You should use some kind of a Raid server with parity to protect all the music that you put on the system. Eventually a hard drive will fail.
I've been a big Squeezebox fan for quite sometime. I love the fact that I can stream to three different rooms/systems, synced when needed, and stream to my iPhone or iPad remotely using the iPeng app. The iPeng interface is very slick.
I'm currently using a Squeezebox Touch on my main rig. While it does not sound quite as good as my Oracle CD transport, it's pretty damn good for the $300 investment. (I am using an external DAC with it).
But because the Touch is not quite "the best", I'm hesitant to fully recommend it as an optimal CD transport replacement. I have heard PC-based systems (Carl's for one) that I think probably do sound just as good or better than the best transports out there.
Whether I stick with the Touch, switch to a PC-based setup, or buy something totally different, it's not really a big issue. For me, the biggest commitment was just taking the time to rip and tag all of my CDs to flac. A big project but well worth the effort. Once done, you can choose any number of solutions to play the music without the risk of having to re-rip for a different player.
FWIW, I have found myself purchasing new music from HDTracks or similar sites rather than buying the same music on CD, just so I could get it in higher res, 24 bit resolution where available.
Sonos Connect is $350 and requires no additional computer to use it. Use smart phone, iPad or a computer to control it, or buy the dedicated Sonos wireless controller. You rip your music onto a network attached storage server (DLink DNS-320 + extra drive $300.) If you already have a wireless router then your network is adequate to run a network player. So that's $750. I have happily run this setup for about 4 years. Sonos is easy, reliable and fast. It requires an external DAC for good SQ, but you'll need that for any computer audio setup, or even CD player, to achieve high end sound quality.
A network player is good enough for me, but there are some limitations. A real computer in your system adds the ability to play high resolution music files. I find these interesting sonic treats, but unnecessary to enjoy music. If you do hifi to enjoy the illusion of realism from your system, then hirez will be valuable to you. If you trance into the music then hirez is irrelevant, imo. A computer can also do real time processing of the audio stream, like EQ, effects, room correction, crossover, etc. Although few audiophiles go this route, there is massive potential there and I think will become an important part of the sport in the coming years. A real computer can also run a more sophisticated control software than those running on Squeezebox or Sonos. JRiver or foobar offer more advanced functions.
Computer audio can be a little intimidating at first, but it's really not too bad. You have hundreds of years of combined experience on AN to help you, so it will be a relatively painless (and hilarious) process to get up to speed.
One drawback of the media players like Sonos and Squeezebox is that you can't play a CD until after you rip it (convert the CD into files on the network.) Furthermore, the network players maintain their own library databases, and can only play music that is in their database. New music added to the hard drive remains invisible to the player until the database is updated (scanned.) Sonos does this in about 20 seconds. Logitech server (running on a separate computer) takes longer, but the speed has improved a lot since 5 years ago when it took overnight for large library. I keep an old universal player in the rack for playing CDs, but I only use it for G2Gs when people want to play their CDs at the meet.
Other drawbacks are you can't read liner notes, no vinyl rituals, but you can make up new rituals. ;) This is a more complex system than vinyl or CDP. You have to expect occasional computer problems, network problems, player problems, whatever. Depending on what hardware you buy the level of frustration can vary, but there is always some. The nicad batteries of my Sonos controller are going dead, so I need to crack it open and repair, if i can. Sonos did a major upgrade to the PC control software and it is slightly flakey, won't shut down quickly about 10% of the time. Easy to ignore, but still minor irritation. Occasionally the network connection goes down, hard drives fail in the NAS, etc. Library backup is something to think about.
Being able to program a playlist of a few hours of music and then just sitting there in a state of deep meditation while one perfect track after another comes at you is a great advantage. Listening to Beethoven's 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 symphonies in a row is a favorite. No more hunting for a CD. Although I still hunt for them when I want to take them to someone else's system.
Like Mike said, playing internet radio and Pandora are a big advantage over the traditional library. You will discover lots of new music.
Computer audio is just a fad like the 8-track
Seriously, what about sound quality? At least as good as CD?
What about the cost of music? I know Pandora is free but what about sound quality?
Wow! Thanks for all of the ideas/suggestions. I can see that this is going to be a painstaking task to get things up and running! I guess it's gonna be a matter of me just gathering up enough courage to make this "leap" into the sonic future! :shock:
Quote from: Emil on May 03, 2012, 08:35:54 AM
Computer audio is just a fad like the 8-track
Seriously, what about sound quality? At least as good as CD?
What about the cost of music? I know Pandora is free but what about sound quality?
You can certainly do the free version of Pandora... their pay for version (not super spendy) is a little better quality, no commercials. Pandora is nice in terms of it finding out new/similar tunes for you...
If looking to go that route, Spotify is a "better" solution (higher bit rates, crazy big selection) for the pay for version.
Better is subjective I know... just in terms of SQ and quality it's pretty nice. Then there are all the high bit rate Internet Radio stations... There's quite a bit out there.
Dave
Quote from: Emil on May 03, 2012, 08:35:54 AM
Computer audio is just a fad like the 8-track
Seriously, what about sound quality? At least as good as CD?
What about the cost of music? I know Pandora is free but what about sound quality?
Potentially better than CD because ripping a file removes the CD error correction, and playing from RAM memory like JRiver can do supposedly increases sound quality further. But there are layers of hardware and software that can still screw it up again.
Sound quality of Pandora is adequate to listen to the music. It is not good enough for audiophile listening. But finding new music is worth the SQ sacrifice. If I hear something great supposedly I would buy it on CD, but I have done that only a couple times, and it was for the music, not the sound quality. I just wanted to hear it more often than Pandora plays it. Spotify has higher bitrate? Some internet radio stations have 320kbps which is starting to sound OK, but that's still only 25% of CD bitrate.
Pandora will increase the advertising as much and as quickly as listeners will tolerate. They are going public so the push for profit will have positive and negative effects. So far it has not been too annoying to me on the Sonos feed.
edit: dave beat me to it!
I totally agree that the internet is a great source of new music but if the sound quality is not up to a least CD quality, I would pass for now IMHO. Moreover, what incentive would the likes of pandora have to offer hi-rez downloads? Extra money?, sure,but is the demand there?
So for Stereonut, i vote for Transport/dac option.
Many people are burning their discs to computer/ipods and selling there disc to local CD shops.
I've been having a field day picking up used CDs at the mall for cheap and more than willing to drop a few bucks on an artist I've never heard of. I would never have done that in the past and definitely not at $18.
Quote from: Emil on May 03, 2012, 08:35:54 AM
Computer audio is just a fad like the 8-track
Seriously, what about sound quality? At least as good as CD?
What about the cost of music? I know Pandora is free but what about sound quality?
Streaming, such as Pandora and Limewire, is only a small part of computer audio.
Streaming is fine for background music, but not for critical listening(as already mentioned).
Emil, want your dollar to carry you even further? Purchased used CD's and then sell them back after you're done ripping them to your computer. ;)
I hope you are joking about 8-track silliness. I wouldn't go transport/DAC as it makes no sense. Just rip everything onto a HD, much easier, once you get the hang of it and you have access to CD quality + Listening to online stations if a fine way to learn about the new crap out there.
Quote from: Emil on May 03, 2012, 10:07:18 AM
I totally agree that the internet is a great source of new music but if the sound quality is not up to a least CD quality, I would pass for now IMHO. Moreover, what incentive would the likes of pandora have to offer hi-rez downloads? Extra money?, sure,but is the demand there?
In addition to the subscription fees, Pandora does offer the ability to purchase the content while you're listening (admittedly, I've never done it).
Another is learning a lot about you (musical tastes) and how that may transcend into purchasing decisions for other items. They probably make a lot of money from this. User affinity data is a hot area.
Dave
Just be sure to backup the hd(s) with music.
I just lost a 1TB drive in my server, hope nothing good on it.
FWIW, Logitech Squeezebox (Media Server) scan time to read ripped and tagged flac files has been quite improved... definitely under a minute to add a couple new albums and that's on a fairly old PC server (running Win 7). Of course, rescanning your entire collection can take quite a while, but I rarely find a need to do so anymore. A few years back, I found myself rescanning my entire library routinely to resolve issues, but that's a thing of the past.
Where the Squeezebox Touch has not lived up to the hype is to operate standalone without the need to have Media Server installed separately (formerly known as a SqueezeCenter among other names). While technically, you should be able to just hang your music drive off the Touch, it's simply underpowered for that and creates all sorts of headaches when you try (and I've tried ;-). Why Logitech has not issued a Touch II that addresses this is anyone's guess.
I keep waiting for someone (even Logitech) to come along with a far better music streaming solution. There are still few such products on the market (or at least, that I'm aware of) - Squeezebox & Sonos probably being the most successful products.
It would be fascinating to do a comparison of CD, Squeezebox, Sonos and PC-based playback sometime.
Quote from: mdconnelly on May 03, 2012, 03:13:14 PM
It would be fascinating to do a comparison of CD, Squeezebox, Sonos and PC-based playback sometime.
Welcome back Mike!
Yes it would be interesting. We could set them all up ahead of time and play same track on each. Although Sonos and Touch are constants the CDP and the PC setup are variable, but you have one of the best CDPs and we can probably create a pretty stout PC player on a SSD laptop or something like that.
It would also be interesting to compare various Windows software media players for sound quality. Like foobar v. JRiver, etc.
I've done a comparison with traditional cd (Pioneer DVD player) and audio PC running Foobar to the same DAC and compared. It was hands-down better on the PC. It shouldn't have been.. But it was.
I have compared the SB3 to the audio PC also and the PC beat it.
To make things worse, I've compared USB->DAC to USB->SPDIF->DAC and the latter was better. sigh. How is this possible, why?
So, be careful what you wish for in comparisons... things sound better that technically shouldn't and you leave scratching your head....
I HIGHLY encourage anyone to do some comparisons on their own within their system... so you know what's changing and are used to the sound... Doing this alone is easier and more objective (to me) than doing it in a group. I'd love to hear other people's results when comparing transports or even connection types in the PC chain. I've been doing computer audio for over 5 years now and I feel like it's still pretty new... but it's out of its infancy. Things are making leaps forward now. :)
I'm psyched about the possibility of the Voyage MPD Linux build on a PC Engines tiny computer.. If I can ever figure out how to configure it, I look forward to hearing it... and comparing it to my audio PC. I would LOVE to get rid of my monitor and keyboard in the sound room... and go 100% silent.
-C
Would not just a Mac laptop with remote do the trick as the source ? Is the standard drive acceptable or would M2Tech or ASIO be better ? Why Sonos or other device ?
Then just a USB DAC of choice ? How about a Korg digital recorder instead ?
Has anyone compared a say CEC or equal dedicated transport against the computer using a DAC ?
charles
Quote from: rollo on May 04, 2012, 07:14:43 AM
Would not just a Mac laptop with remote do the trick as the source ? Is the standard drive acceptable or would M2Tech or ASIO be better ? Why Sonos or other device ?
Then just a USB DAC of choice ? How about a Korg digital recorder instead ?
Has anyone compared a say CEC or equal dedicated transport against the computer using a DAC ?
charles
Yes, a Mac laptop would work fine. ASIO is a driver for windows sound. HiFace has a different driver for Mac. Mac native audio layer is pretty good. Just stay away from iTunes, it really fucks up the sound. I don't know of other free media players for Mac, but I'm sure someone offers one. Ayre?
http://www.anedio.com/index.php/article/usb_osx (http://www.anedio.com/index.php/article/usb_osx)
http://www.channld.com/puremusic/ (http://www.channld.com/puremusic/) is an excellent player for Mac, but it's not free. It uses iTunes library database, but has a proprietary clean high resolution audio driver. Also 32 bit digital volume control and linear phase subwoofer digital crossover.
Comparing optical to computer source is difficult, as Carl describes above. Computer is so complicated with changing drivers, software revs, and varying hardware you can't really make a universal judgement. But I agree, it is fun to compare and learn. On Squeezebox 3 I was able to hear the difference between flac and wav files. Mathematically there is no difference, but the analog pathway out of the processor is different, with God knows how bad the timing is for the SB3 databuss. Probably worse for Sonos. Probably better for most PCs. But the bits are identical. So many variables. It's just like PC power supply matters, and more intuitively, digital ICs matter. Bits ain't bits.
Campy,
Like you said before, "we all have sizeable CD collections...". That being said I believe in having a good CD player to play them, since they aren't going anywhere and I will keep using and adding to them (especially using Alisweb library borrowed CD's).
However, if I were to buy a CD player today I would make sure I had one that also allowed direct input to the DAC section so I could try out computer audio when it becomes easier to use and more standardized. It is getting there, so there is a need to future proof yourself to some degree.
Quote from: BobM on May 05, 2012, 06:49:58 AM
...
However, if I were to buy a CD player today I would make sure I had one that also allowed direct input to the DAC section so I could try out computer audio when it becomes easier to use and more standardized. It is getting there, so there is a need to future proof yourself to some degree.
Agreed! Unless you're totally committed to spinning vinyl, any audio investment today needs to include a good DAC - either standalone or integrated and input-accessible in your CD player (or preamp or other digital playback component).
I also have a sizable investment in CDs so don't really see selling my CD player anytime soon, but it is now used about the same amount as my turntable... probably 80% of all my listening these days happens via my Squeezebox. 15% via CDs, 5% via vinyl. I'm not sure I'm happy with that ratio, but it is what it is. I keep thinking that when I retire, I'll have far more time to enjoy the vinyl... we'll see.
Quote from: richidoo on May 04, 2012, 10:20:11 AM
Quote from: rollo on May 04, 2012, 07:14:43 AM
Would not just a Mac laptop with remote do the trick as the source ? Is the standard drive acceptable or would M2Tech or ASIO be better ? Why Sonos or other device ?
Then just a USB DAC of choice ? How about a Korg digital recorder instead ?
Has anyone compared a say CEC or equal dedicated transport against the computer using a DAC ?
charles
Yes, a Mac laptop would work fine. ASIO is a driver for windows sound. HiFace has a different driver for Mac. Mac native audio layer is pretty good. Just stay away from iTunes, it really fucks up the sound. I don't know of other free media players for Mac, but I'm sure someone offers one. Ayre?
http://www.anedio.com/index.php/article/usb_osx (http://www.anedio.com/index.php/article/usb_osx)
http://www.channld.com/puremusic/ (http://www.channld.com/puremusic/) is an excellent player for Mac, but it's not free. It uses iTunes library database, but has a proprietary clean high resolution audio driver. Also 32 bit digital volume control and linear phase subwoofer digital crossover.
Comparing optical to computer source is difficult, as Carl describes above. Computer is so complicated with changing drivers, software revs, and varying hardware you can't really make a universal judgement. But I agree, it is fun to compare and learn. On Squeezebox 3 I was able to hear the difference between flac and wav files. Mathematically there is no difference, but the analog pathway out of the processor is different, with God knows how bad the timing is for the SB3 databuss. Probably worse for Sonos. Probably better for most PCs. But the bits are identical. So many variables. It's just like PC power supply matters, and more intuitively, digital ICs matter. Bits ain't bits.
Thanks Rich. Looking to make the plunge this week for the laptop.
charles
Quote from: rollo on May 05, 2012, 08:06:10 AM
Thanks Rich. Looking to make the plunge this week for the laptop.
Great! It'll be a bit of an adventure and some good learning. Keep your chin up, be patient and within a month you'll have it dialed in perfectly. Check out PureMusic, I think that's a good player for Macs. I don't know much about macs, but there are some here who do, and more on AC.
Is there really any reason to pick a Mac over a non-Mac, unless you like spending more $$ than you need to?
I (and wifey) just can't seem to get Apple stuff to work right - just too Windows indoctrinated I guess.
I'm still smarting from an Ipod experience years ago when I wanted to put music from my PC onto my kid's Ipod that had been "attached" to another PC already. But Apple was going to make me delete all the content in the Ipad first because "We are Apple, and we will tell you what music you may or may not put on your Ipod".
Ever since then I've wanted to keep Apple as far away from my music experience as possible.
Quote from: mfsoa on May 05, 2012, 10:19:27 AM
Is there really any reason to pick a Mac over a non-Mac, unless you like spending more $$ than you need to?
I (and wifey) just can't seem to get Apple stuff to work right - just too Windows indoctrinated I guess.
I'm still smarting from an Ipod experience years ago when I wanted to put music from my PC onto my kid's Ipod that had been "attached" to another PC already. But Apple was going to make me delete all the content in the Ipad first because "We are Apple, and we will tell you what music you may or may not put on your Ipod".
Ever since then I've wanted to keep Apple as far away from my music experience as possible.
Good question Mike. I have told by the computer Gurus that Macs just sound better. I cannot vouch for gaga.
If one uses say a SS hardrive to play from directly does the Manf. or type of computer matter at all.
Would a Lynux or however you spell it based on windows using the SS hardrive offer any advantages ??
The Manf. of the PDX reccos Mac. An OEM M2tech hiface USB board is built in. I guess any brand computer that can use the driver would be sufficeint.
charles
Not sure if you've made your buying decisions yet, but I recently "shelved" my modded SB3 and started using a PC server. Check out a "Zotac Zbox" (I got mine from TigerDirect). It's a compact little PC, with a VERY quite internal fan, perfect for rack mount. They're so small, they also can me mounted on the back of a PC flat screen monitor.
For storage, I've got a (fanless) 2TB Western Digital USB "Passport" drive.
As the "remote control", I'm using a Samsung Galaxy 10.0 Tablet and J. River Media as the interface.
Lotsa fun! :thumb:
Hope that helps,
Bob
PC can have just as good sound as Mac. Mac OSX operating system is nice, but so is Win7. Using ASIO driver, SQ is excellent from PC, but it depends on the output hardware. If you have M2tech on the input of your dac the computer choice is less important.
A PC is much less money. A HTPC type computer is adequate for playing music.
Mac is cool like Obama, so you will feel hip and young.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQhzXRqgycM5gaPJU5syJYsVBGiS9KArKc8_UMDeKm5gTtPmc7E_d9A_V-m)
Apple stuff is very expensive. You are paying a lot for the image. You can run Windows software on a MAC, but you need to upgrade to the operating system that allows this and run a "patch" that is not fully supported by Apple. Also more expensive, of course.
Windows 7 is truly a big leap forward for non-Apple PC's. My daughter, a digital art student, uses both MAC's and Windows 7 hardware at school. She prefers Windows 7 over MAC's for art, because anything you can do on a MAC you can now do on Windows. All the support is there and the software companies fully support it now.
We are becoming more platform independent as far as usability goes, and the security in Windows 7 is far better than earlier Windows platforms were, but you still need a firewall and anti-virus.
hdtracks.com has a page about some popular media player softwares for Mac and PC.
https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=digital_store (https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=digital_store)
Quote from: richidoo on May 06, 2012, 05:23:41 PM
hdtracks.com has a page about some popular media player softwares for Mac and PC.
https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=digital_store (https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=digital_store)
Thanks, Rich. This is a great link to bookmark for future reference. :thumb:
Somewhere along the line I'll make the move to a computer front end, I'm just too confused to make an intelligent choice right now. :duh
SN
Quote from: StereoNut on May 07, 2012, 06:03:37 AM
Quote from: richidoo on May 06, 2012, 05:23:41 PM
hdtracks.com has a page about some popular media player softwares for Mac and PC.
https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=digital_store (https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=digital_store)
Thanks, Rich. This is a great link to bookmark for future reference. :thumb:
Somewhere along the line I'll make the move to a computer front end, I'm just too confused to make an intelligent choice right now. :duh
SN
Im with you on this. :?
I still think its just a fad like the 8-track :lol:
Just like when audiophiles were pining about the demise of vinyl records with the introduction of CDs, we'll be pining about CDs as we move towards computer based software :roll:
But not Stereonut and I :thumb:
You're too funny, Emil! As they say in the coop... "nobody in here but us chickens!" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Quote from: Emil on May 07, 2012, 06:26:48 AMJust like when audiophiles were pining about the demise of vinyl records with the introduction of CDs, we'll be pining about CDs as we move towards computer based software :roll:
Yea, I was thinking the same thing.
But I'll be here to take all those worthless CD's off your hands though. Call me whenever you're ready for me to bring the truck to haul them off. :rofl:
Bob
Quote from: richidoo on May 05, 2012, 01:30:47 PM
PC can have just as good sound as Mac. Mac OSX operating system is nice, but so is Win7. Using ASIO driver, SQ is excellent from PC, but it depends on the output hardware. If you have M2tech on the input of your dac the computer choice is less important.
A PC is much less money. A HTPC type computer is adequate for playing music.
Mac is cool like Obama, so you will feel hip and young.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQhzXRqgycM5gaPJU5syJYsVBGiS9KArKc8_UMDeKm5gTtPmc7E_d9A_V-m)
Ah yes hip and young but clueless. Mac = Obama, no Mac for me.
charles
[Ah yes hip and young but clueless. Mac = Obama, no Mac for me/i]
Lets keep this place a politics free zone please [-X
No good will ever come from it.
Macs rock~
Great for audio.
Great for Web Design
Great for photoshopping people into odd positions!
My Quad G5 is still my main machine, like 6-7 years old.
PC = cow pie
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7iMS-Z5GxnA/SCUJ8qBOjyI/AAAAAAAAAB0/0QkoY4sV6rE/s400/Drama_Llama.jpg)
Bob - I really expected to see a picture of my 15 year old daughter there (but she is far prettier than that llama).
:rofl:
I don't have a picture of your daughter, however I do have one of my eight year old little female bundle of energy. There's more drama in that little body than there should be. :lol:
Bob
Here's the Llama finger dance that all the kids seem to know when they are young.
llama finger dance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kEIvcGriJ8#)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
What was the original purpose of this thread...??? :?
We have seemed to digress just a wee bit!!! :roll:
Oh yeah, now I remember... politics, far-away farm animals and silly youtube videos. :duh
Be one with the llama! 8)
http://youtu.be/ZpjyH-LkEAg (http://youtu.be/ZpjyH-LkEAg)
My work here.....is complete.
Ahhh - Mac Vs Windows for audio.
Right now I personally prefer my Mac Mini but I heard a report of a guy that makes Windows PC's for audio that blew a Mac away. Anyway I will be getting one to check out.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: bhobba on May 08, 2012, 04:12:15 PM
Ahhh - Mac Vs Windows for audio.
Right now I personally prefer my Mac Mini but I heard a report of a guy that makes Windows PC's for audio that blew a Mac away. Anyway I will be getting one to check out.
Thanks
Bill
Keep us posted, Bill.
SteroNut. If you like I can bring over the PDX USB DAC with Paul L. [ club member] and his laptop for you to get a feel for computer audio.
Opinions are OK and helpfull but the truth is in hearing it in your system as you well know.
charles
Quote from: rollo on May 11, 2012, 07:55:09 AM
...Opinions are OK and helpfull but the truth is in hearing it in your system as you well know.
charles
+1000 :thumb:
The proof is
always in the listening! Hearing any new piece of equipment, cable, tweak etc... in your own system is the only way to know for sure! The bottom line comes down to system SYNERGY and one's own personal preferences/taste.
SN
Quote from: StereoNut on May 03, 2012, 05:24:55 AM
Thanks, Mike. As far as a computer based front end goes, I'll need to tap into everyone's expertise here. I really don't know what's needed to set-up my system like this. :? I guess that I'm just an "old school audiofool" that can't imagine a computer nestled into his audio rack for a digital source. :roll: Geez, just when I thought the WAF couldn't get any tougher! :shock:
At the same time, I don't want to "re-invent the wheel" here. If there's an earlier thread that gives these specifics, please post it and I will pursue the computer audio part of the topic further from there.
SN
For around $500 Rich Hollis (HAL at Audio Circle) has put together a windows 7 based computer with nothing moving but a very quiet fan. I was one of his guinea pigs for the early prototypes- picked because of my computer illiteracy. I've compared to some dedicated Mini Macs, and think it may have an edge in definition. The whole package is tiny- smaller than a cigar box. The price is fair and the sound is top calibre.
Scott
Thanks, Scott. :thumb:
I too was very skeptical of computer as a front end. But because I have seen CD's availability get smaller and almost non existence in stores where I used to purchase, I felt the handwriting is on the wall. Not that CD's will disappear, but that online downloads will dominate the way to hear and purchase new music.
I took the plunge into computer audio this past week. Rich was a big help on gettng started. I have to admit I was surprised with the sound quality from HDTracks.com downloads, without a dac or any interface to the computer.
JRiver software was a bit frustrating at first, but I have worked through the learning curve.
I am now looking foward to getting a dac to see how much beter that will improve the sound.
I would appreciate any feedback on which dac is the best bang for the buck, under 1000, that can be useful for the long term.
Henry
Wadia 850 front for over 14 years
I'm afraid that a budget of $500 is just not enough. However if you could manage a tad more the Musical Fidelity M1 is a real sleeper.
If you can go for even more then a EE DAC or Tranquility would do just fine. Easily modded if desired as well.
There are a plethora pf used DACS on A'Gon. Have fun looking. Unless Richadoo makes ya a Buffalo. :thumb:
charles
Thanks Charles. I have talked with Rich, who is always helpful. I will plan to listen to his dac, once I have the interface needed. I also plan to talk to Shane and Carl. Audiogon does have some offerings I may pursue.
Henry
Tonight we will compare the PDX DAC to a Plinius 101 CDP. The Plinius lists for $5400. The PDX DAC with Dueland VSF output caps and volume control with internal M2Tech OEM board is $4400.
A Mac laptop with PIAudio powercord, and custom USB cable. DAC and CDP powered with Triode Wire Labs.
Should prove interesting. We will try running DAC direct to amps and then through a Miracle Audio Preamp to Arion HS 500 amps. Speakers used will be Lenehan Audio ML-1 and Pipedreams.
Will report our findings.
charles
Quote from: bmr3hc on May 18, 2012, 03:59:38 AM
Thanks Charles. I have talked with Rich, who is always helpful. I will plan to listen to his dac, once I have the interface needed. I also plan to talk to Shane and Carl. Audiogon does have some offerings I may pursue.
Henry
Cannot go wrong with Rich or Shane. Listen to the AMR CDP and DAC as a reference first. Expensive however a great benchmark . Have fun trying.
charles
Quote from: StereoNutKeep us posted, Bill.
Visited the guy Wednesday and ordered one. Will keep everyone posted.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: StereoNut
+1000 :thumb:
The proof is always in the listening! Hearing any new piece of equipment, cable, tweak etc... in your own system is the only way to know for sure! The bottom line comes down to system SYNERGY and one's own personal preferences/taste.
Aren't that the truth. The stories I could tell.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: rollo on May 18, 2012, 06:42:54 AM
Tonight we will compare the PDX DAC to a Plinius 101 CDP. The Plinius lists for $5400. The PDX DAC with Dueland VSF output caps and volume control with internal M2Tech OEM board is $4400.
A Mac laptop with PIAudio powercord, and custom USB cable. DAC and CDP powered with Triode Wire Labs.
Should prove interesting. We will try running DAC direct to amps and then through a Miracle Audio Preamp to Arion HS 500 amps. Speakers used will be Lenehan Audio ML-1 and Pipedreams.
Will report our findings.
Wow - :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Really love to hear the results of that one.
Just got a Playback Designs MPD 3 and obviously compared it to all my DAC's including the PDX with some acquaintances. Nice DAC but everyone felt the PDX was better although the MPD 3 did respond very well to upsampling and it was closer when upsampled to 384k - but the PDX still had the edge - greater 'life'.
However the PD evidently sounds amazing with DSD and using that it may have the edge - we will see.
I think I need to do a separate post about that especially once I check it out further.
Another surprise was the NAD C390DD - frikken awesome - some felt it was better than the PD and Mac 501's - unbelievable value.
Thanks
Bill
What software is running on the Mac?
Apparently this makes as much difference as any other part of the chain.
Can we say Variables, boys and girls?
Sounds like a good time, looking forward to the impressions.
-Mike
The OS is Snowleopard. A 2010 Mac. Used an hardrive connected with Firewire. A Larry Moore design USB cable. Standard power supply and battery were tried.
Have been using the Plinius CDP instead of the Lector as the Lector bit the dust recently. The Plinius is less colored than the Lector. Lector uses 12AT7 Telefunken tubes. Creates a huge soudstage and gives all the emotional impact one would desire.
The Plinius is a dedicated redbook player. No up sampling no DSP nada. Straight unadulterated redbook.
Paul L. brought over his Mac laptop and cabling played all high rez vinyl ripped to the computer.
We compared the Clapton unplugged CD on the Plinius to the hi rez through the PDZ. . To my ears much more clarity, separation of instruments and killer bass. Claptons voice as well as his tapping his foot was more defined. Just more dimension. We removed the Miracle Audio preamp and ran the PDX straight. It was a mixed bag. Even more clarity, however a tad lighter in weight.
What impressed me the most with the PDX was the top end. The culprit of digital. Vocal sibilants were delivered naturally, no hype no sizzle no spotlighting. Just pure treble with ZERO artifacts. Vocals were more intelligible The emotion of the players came through in spades. Goosebumps actually.
Overall however we preferred the preamp over the PDX,s volume pot running direct. Although the clarity is addictive the weight was lacking a bit. Not that it sounded lean but in comparison it did.
Overall he Mac and PDX delivered the most real to life presentation. Fast, accurate and dynamic as heck.
If I only had the Plinius without hearing the PDX life would be great. The PDX showed me what is capable with computer Audio. There is no turning back now.
My only reservation overall was the weight of the presentation. The brute force that a preamp provides was MIA when using the volume control direct. But but the information provided through the PDX was astounding. Heard more of the inflections that remind our brains of the real deal. So I guess it is a personal subjective thing for me. It may be coloration more listening will confirm my impression.
The Jury is still out using a Pre or not. As a standalone DAC from the Puter running through a preamp a winner in every respect. I believe the advantage of high rez was the edge over the Plinius and Lector CDPs. With standard redbook it was a close call. It boiled down to personal preference not sonics. I could live with all three.
If I had to take one to a desert island it would be the PDX hands down.
Yes we are working out a dealer agreement. We were that impressed.
charles
Hi Charles
Yea with hi res and in retrieving extra detail the PDX with USB does shine. What I have found however with that DAC is the version without the volume pot going direct to your amps is a bit better and is how I use it.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: bhobba on May 20, 2012, 02:55:11 PM
Hi Charles
Yea with hi res and in retrieving extra detail the PDX with USB does shine. What I have found however with that DAC is the version without the volume pot going direct to your amps is a bit better and is how I use it.
Thanks
Bill
Hey Bill,
How do you control the volume then ? Not a fan of passive volume controls. To my ears always thin sounding. The only exception are the transformer based TVCs.
An active preamp has always provided the weight and impact of the music more than any passive I have tried Bent, Stevens & Billington, Promithius, Mapleshade and a DIY with S&B trannies. Have not tried the Lightspeed yet. All had exceptional clarity and detail , however were missing the gestalt of the music. We heard more info but lacking in emotional impact as compared directly to a tubed active preamp. The active may be colored compared to the passive however colored as in real life. Which is subjective to the listener.
It would be a good test to revisit the passives against the active now that I;m using different amps and speakers.
Awaiting Lenehan ML-2Rs as we speak. Hopefully this week.
charles
Sounds great, can't wait to hear the PDX at Emils.
M
Quote from: rollo on May 21, 2012, 08:08:46 AMHow do you control the volume then ? Not a fan of passive volume controls. To my ears always thin sounding. The only exception are the transformer based TVCs.
You use the volume control in the player on the computer such as Bit Perfect (which right now seems to be the most transparent) or Audirvana Plus (slightly less transparent but can handle more formats and DSD).
These volume controls use dithering which without going into the technical details is better than any kind of electronic volume control.
With regard to the PDX, since the designer Clay hand builds each one, he will adjust the I/V resistor to match your amp so you use the smallest amount of volume reduction which theoretically should be better but I have found makes zero audible difference.
You are correct about pre-amps - who gives a damn if they colour sound providing it sounds better and to you is more realistic. Personally I prefer direct connecting - it has more life, greater dynamics, and a less veiled sound to my ears but that's me. Most people who have checked it out with me prefer it that way as well. It certainly is worth a try to see what you think.
Not a fan of the Lightspeed. I know if the guy who makes them out here in Aus, George, reads this, watch out for the sparks flying, but to me it sounds dull compared to direct connecting, and a number of my acquaintances agree.
Yea my ML2-R's are nearing completion as well. My friend in Canberra picked up the special stands and man are they over the top - each stand weighs over 53kgs but another audiophile buddy who heard them said they make the ML2's sound like they were bolted to a granite mountain. Trouble is weighing so much normal shipping methods cost a bomb.
Thanks
Bill