Since Rich has commented about Tube Integrateds on my Phono Stage thread...
"Lots of tube integrateds out there. You get what you pay for, watch out for compromised output transformers."
I'll pose the question to everyone here. As I recently posted on that other thread, I am contemplating the purchase of a tube integrated amplifier to replace my Naim (SS) electronics.
I haven't made up my mind yet, but have been leaning towards the Jolida JD1000RC. Seems to be a lotta "bang for the buck", not to mention high power and a remote!
http://www.jolida.com/product/tubeamp/jd1000rc
My recently modded/upgraded Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen.III's aren't the most sensitive speakers on the planet (I think they're rated at about 90-91db) so I want a good amount of power. (The Jolida is 100 WPC.) The other major influence here (for me) is that Albert Von Schweikert (don't say a word, Jim!) has been using this Jolida amp to demo his new VR-33 speakers at the more recent audio shows.
My other concerns are tube availability and replacement costs; I don't want to get into a situation where tubes are impossible to find and/or they cost a $$$ fortune.
I am working with a budget of about $2500.00 for this and another $500.00 for an outboard phono stage if the integrated doesn't have one. If there's an integrated with a phono section included, I can stretch my budget a bit further since there won't be a need for spending additional $$$ on a separate phono stage. (Obviously!)
Suggestions...???
Rouge Audio Magnum. Lets not forget Melody. Jolida is sold by S&G Custom Sound. Maybe Scott has one for you to audition.
charles
Quote from: rollo on May 24, 2012, 08:59:50 AM
...Jolida is sold by S&G Custom Sound. Maybe Scott has one for you to audition.
charles
I traded e-mails with Scott the other day. He speaks very highly of the Jolida line. He doesn't have that particular (JD1000RC) model on hand, but it can be ordered. Of course, I have to "torture" myself adequately by agonizing over other choices first,
before I buy anything! :D
Bill
RAM Labs, Niteshade Audio, Vista Audio i34 ...
Saw this on Long Island Craigslist. Dont know anything about the brand though
http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/ele/2994698811.html (http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/ele/2994698811.html)
and this in Brooklyn
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/rogue-audio-tempest-3-integrated-amp-less-than-500-hrs (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/rogue-audio-tempest-3-integrated-amp-less-than-500-hrs)
I was mightly impressed with the Cayin stuff back when Phil (from NYAR) was sponsoring the line. It was inexpensive, but nicely built and sounded great. Built in China.
The VR4 mk3 is flattish 4 ohm load. Assume it dips to 3 ohms, but we don't know the phase response of the speaker, which affects the load felt by the amplifier. I did not see a review on Stereophile.com.
Info about speaker impedance and phase as relates to amplifiers.
http://sound.westhost.com/patd.htm (http://sound.westhost.com/patd.htm)
To maintain a relaxed confident sound from any amplifier, you want enough headroom to allow for dynamic peaks without approaching max power, where distortion rises dramatically making the amp sound "stressed." For your dynamic but hungry speakers, sufficient headroom will be a rather high power rating, depending on how loud you play, and how your preferred music falls on the impedance curve.
With nominal 4 ohm speaker of moderate sensitivity, I'd be sticking with SS to keep good bass control at low impedances. But for tubes, I'd be looking for 100W+, you'll need something that can use 4 KT88/6550 tubes at a minimum. High power tubes are pricey proposition when you want low distortion, (good trannies) so you might need to shop used.
I liked the Cayin A100-T 100W integrated when I heard it with Quad 2805. $3500 retail.
Audio Research VSi60 uses four of the new, very powerful Tung Sol KT120 tubes, and quality iron. They brag about low impedance ability. I heard it 4 years ago on Wilson Sophia2 at RMAF, sounded very nice indeed. The KT120 is building a great reputation for sounding very good, and making a lot of power. Audio research has switched from Svetlana 6550 winged C to KT120 for their one power output tube used on all new products. It is made by New Sensor, an American owned company in Russia. All of their tube brands are reliable and consistent. You'd have to try this amp to make sure it's a good fit, and it's definitely over your budget, but I think you'd like it. 8)
Edit: The VSi60 is only $4000 retail (2010.) A used one might fit in your budget, and hold resale value extremely well over the years, as all AR gear does.
http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/audio_research_vsi60_integrated_amplifier (http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/audio_research_vsi60_integrated_amplifier) Reviewed with the old style 6550 tubes. New amp have the KT120s.
Rich, great minds think alike. I was having the same type of conversation with Bill at luchtime today. Given the budget he was taking about of $2500 for the amp and $500 for a phono stage I told him I thought he could get into an ARC combo of an SP-9 pre (which has a very nice phono section built in) and a D-115 or D-125 power amp. If he finds a good deal I could even see him scoring an SP-9 and one of the newer VT-100 amps for that kind of money. Not an integrated, but still a whole lot of sound for the buck.
AR stuff is very nice! Some pieces better than others, but all good, and all strong resale and quality. I was assuming the integrated wish was due to size or cost restraints, reducing the living room gear footprint or system investment. Some of these new jewel like integrated amps are so tempting.
Quote from: richidoo on May 24, 2012, 12:28:30 PM
...The VR4 mk3 is flattish 4 ohm load. Assume it dips to 3 ohms, but we don't know the phase response of the speaker, which affects the load felt by the amplifier. I did not see a review on Stereophile.com...
Rich
Thanks for your input here. As usual, you bring a wealth of information to any thread that you post on. :thumb:
I believe my VR-4 Gen.III's with the 2012 MOD are different than what the VR-4 Mk3's were. I e-mailed V.S.A. to ask for specs, just to help give everyone a better idea of what my speakers will need to "sing" amp-wise. As soon as I hear back from Von Schweikert, I will post additional info.
SN
Well if you would consider an Audio Research to try out I have one . The Classic 60, let me know. Plenty of power.
charles
Quote from: richidoo on May 24, 2012, 02:56:21 PM
AR stuff is very nice! Some pieces better than others, but all good, and all strong resale and quality. I was assuming the integrated wish was due to size or cost restraints, reducing the living room gear footprint or system investment. Some of these new jewel like integrated amps are so tempting.
Rich
Cost is part of the equation, but I was leaning towards an integrated mostly to simplify things a little bit. The size/space issue really isn't a problem for me, but I like the idea of eliminating a set of I/C's between amp & pre-amp. Even more importantly, an integrated saves me the hassle of mixing/matching amps to pre-amps and vice-versa. Depending upon what I settle on (if I do buy new electronics) it will also be nice to have a remote.
I guess the bottom line is I'm trying to get myself back to just enjoying the music again and not be so analytical and critical while listening to equipment/system changes etc...
The Nervosa Merry-Go-Round is starting to wear me out!!!
Bill
Quote from: rollo on May 25, 2012, 06:24:47 AM
Well if you would consider an Audio Research to try out I have one . The Classic 60, let me know. Plenty of power.
charles
Charles
Isn't the "Classic 60" only 60WPC as the name implies? My Naim amp is 70WPC and I'm looking for more power. I'm just getting the feeling that my newly upgraded VR-4's have a lot more music in them,
if I feed them more WPC.
Bill
I think you are trying to make three decisions with one stone here. You want more power to bring out the best of the VR4s. You are curious about tube sound because most of your cronies use tubes. ;) And you want to simplify the system into one box.
Considering your sound quality desires (clean bass), budget and speaker load I still recommend a solid state integrated. If you went with separates then tube amps would have enough power and finesse for your speakers. But tubes add glorious distortion that sounds nice. It is not the music, but it is pretty and emotionally stimulating. Like a Ferrari V12 engine, it adds an extra stimulation to the information stream of the passing scenery. Some people love the scream of the engine which adds thrill to the ride, while others would prefer a silent engine so they can hear the birds and leaves rustling and enjoy the subtleties of reality more intensely.
As for solid state integrateds, here are some thoughts off the cuff. I have heard Pass INT150, it was pretty good, but pricey. They make INT-30A also, which makes 60W@4ohms, but most people complain that it runs out of power and they want more. I have not heard any McIntosh integrateds, but I would fear the crappy preamp section. I would be very curious to hear SimAudio Moon Evolution 700i or 600i. NAD M2 and M3 integrated amps have received very good reviews and good prices. Bel Canto C7R has everything you want in a tiny pretty box, even MM preamp and FM tuner, USB high res digital input, remote. If Barry still has his prize Bel Canto, it might be similar innards? BelCanto uses ICE class D amps, with their own input stage and DAC. Audio Research DSi200 (class D.) I'm sure there are many more for you to explore. Integrateds are hot now. I use a 60W custom SS integrated that I like very much. I don't miss tubes, except when I use one, I can hear the lovely sounds tempting me. As much as I enjoy the extra love of the tubes I am usually relieved when I put the quiet and peaceful SS back in. Most SS on a budget has shitty treble, so you do have to look out for that, even on these famous brand so called high end products. High end SS design is a very extreme discipline, it is harder to get it really right than tube design is.
Stereonut
Maybe you should consider a hybrid integrated.
I've used this one for several years.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/valve-audio-predator-250wpc-int-amp-save-2800 (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/valve-audio-predator-250wpc-int-amp-save-2800)
Virtually unknown in the US. Built extremely well and receptive to tube rolling.
You can probably snag it for $900. Reselling can be tough as I've found out :lol:
Quote from: StereoNut on May 25, 2012, 07:35:21 AM
Quote from: rollo on May 25, 2012, 06:24:47 AM
Well if you would consider an Audio Research to try out I have one . The Classic 60, let me know. Plenty of power.
charles
Charles
Isn't the "Classic 60" only 60WPC as the name implies? My Naim amp is 70WPC and I'm looking for more power. I'm just getting the feeling that my newly upgraded VR-4's have a lot more music in them, if I feed them more WPC.
Bill
All power is not equal, meaning the 60W of triode power will act like a 100W SS amp. I would noy have suggested the amp if it was not enough juice. Audio Research and VS are a very good match.
I understand your desire to simplify. Just thought hearing as many amps as possible would be a learning experience.
Hey just go but a Marantz or Onyko receiver and be done.
charles
Bill,
As I offered before, you're welcome to borrow my Rogue Cronus Magnum. It has 90wpc but sounds more powerful with the KT120 tubes I'm using. Drives my 87 db efficient (8 ohm nominal, 3.9 ohm minimum) speakers effortlessly.
It also has a phono stage. You can probably pick one up used for about $1400.
Rob
Quote from: rpf on May 26, 2012, 10:54:13 AM
Bill,
As I offered before, you're welcome to borrow my Rogue Cronus Magnum. It has 90wpc but sounds more powerful with the KT120 tubes I'm using. Drives my 87 db efficient (8 ohm nominal, 3.9 ohm minimum) speakers effortlessly.
It also has a phono stage. You can probably pick one up used for about $1400.
Rob
That would probably work very nicely. KT120 tubes are definitely the wtg.
Quote from: rollo on May 26, 2012, 07:23:51 AM
Quote from: StereoNut on May 25, 2012, 07:35:21 AM
Quote from: rollo on May 25, 2012, 06:24:47 AM
Well if you would consider an Audio Research to try out I have one . The Classic 60, let me know. Plenty of power.
charles
Charles
Isn't the "Classic 60" only 60WPC as the name implies? My Naim amp is 70WPC and I'm looking for more power. I'm just getting the feeling that my newly upgraded VR-4's have a lot more music in them, if I feed them more WPC.
Bill
All power is not equal, meaning the 60W of triode power will act like a 100W SS amp. I would noy have suggested the amp if it was not enough juice. Audio Research and VS are a very good match.
I understand your desire to simplify. Just thought hearing as many amps as possible would be a learning experience.
Hey just go but a Marantz or Onyko receiver and be done.
charles
Sorry for my ignorance, Charles. Considering that I've never owned tube equipment before, I didn't know that there was a "power rating curve" (1 tube watt = 1.67 SS watts) in comparing Tube watts to SS watts.
Hearing as many amps as possible would be a valuable learning (listening) experience, but it will necessitate the auditioning of pre-amps as well, since my Naim electronics doesn't "play nice" with other manufacturer's gear.
Simplify, yes - but in all due respect to both Marantz & Onkyo, I'm not ready to go that far back in that direction. Otherwise I would've kept my old Lafayette receiver and Criterion speakers that I had back in 1972 and never moved on from there!
Bill
Bill
Rpf's offer is really the way to go.
A bird in the hand........
Here's some reviews
http://www.needledoctor.com/Rogue-Audio-Cronus-Integrated-Amp_2 (http://www.needledoctor.com/Rogue-Audio-Cronus-Integrated-Amp_2)
Just FWIW, I have heard Rob's / rpf Rogue Cronus Magnum many many times, in his system and in mine. It is excellent. Liked it so much I bought the Atlas Magnum = amp only version of Cronus integrated.
These Rogue amps are rock solid built, dependable, very quiet, and very steady on the bias...which is a snap to do. I have owned many many tube amps and this is about as worry free, dependable and reliable as toobulation gets.
And don't fall into SS vs tube sterotypes. This thing can really rock and has bass as good as any SS I've heard in my rig. And I've heard and owned more than a few well known and highly regarded brands.
John
Quote from: toobluvr on May 28, 2012, 12:27:25 PM
Just FWIW, I have heard Rob's / rpf Rogue Cronus Magnum many many times, in his system and in mine. It is excellent. Liked it so much I bought the Atlas Magnum = amp only version of Cronus integrated.
These Rogue amps are rock solid built, dependable, very quiet, and very steady on the bias...which is a snap to do. I have owned many many tube amps and this is about as worry free, dependable and reliable as toobulation gets.
And don't fall into SS vs tube sterotypes. This thing can really rock and has bass as good as any SS I've heard in my rig. And I've heard and owned more than a few well known and highly regarded brands.
John
Thanks, John. It's nice to get additional feedback (pardon the pun) on equipment, to see if there are enough similar comments along the way that substantiate each other. At the same time, it's really tough to get a total read on things just on suggestions alone. That's why having an opportunity to hear someone else's piece (like Rob's) in your own system is so invaluable.
The bottom line (as it's been said on every audio forum countless times before) always comes down to getting a chance to actually hear something in your own system. There are so few brick & mortar stores left (let alone ones that will allow you an in-home audition on a piece of equipment) that it's not a luxury we get very often when it comes to contemplating system changes. The alternative of buying used is a great way of getting "more bang for one's buck"; but it's a crap-shoot when it comes to synergy within your system once you get it. Of course, you can then try to "roll it over" back on the used market and hopefully not get (too) hurt $$$, but there is the time and effort involved to do so.
Nonetheless, the quest continues... :thumb:
I just keep buying and selling....buying and selling...buying and selling....in the used market, till I find something that floats my boat.
Yeah, it takes some effort, but you get good prices and the ability to try in your own rig. And if you are careful you don't get burnt, and sometimes even make $$. :thumb:
Quote from: StereoNut on May 25, 2012, 06:09:23 AM
Quote from: richidoo on May 24, 2012, 12:28:30 PM
...The VR4 mk3 is flattish 4 ohm load. Assume it dips to 3 ohms, but we don't know the phase response of the speaker, which affects the load felt by the amplifier. I did not see a review on Stereophile.com...
Rich
Thanks for your input here. As usual, you bring a wealth of information to any thread that you post on. :thumb:
I believe my VR-4 Gen.III's with the 2012 MOD are different than what the VR-4 Mk3's were. I e-mailed V.S.A. to ask for specs, just to help give everyone a better idea of what my speakers will need to "sing" amp-wise. As soon as I hear back from Von Schweikert, I will post additional info.
SN
Albert Von Schweikert responded to my question on "before and after" specs by saying the specs are really for the most part, the same. The upgraded speakers (2012 MOD) sound better because they have all new and better quality drivers, x-overs, wiring, etc. along with additional cabinet bracing and dampening.
Here's what I found for specs via a Stereotimes review of my speakers when they were new in 2001.
http://www.stereotimes.com/speak101001.shtmlVon Schweikert Audio VR-4 Generation III
3 Way, 5 driver, two-piece stacking monitor
Crossover - 150 Hz and 2.6 kHz.
Response - 20-20kHz, +/- 3 dB, 18Hz-25kHz -6dB (+/- 1dB at midband).
Nominal Impedance - 6 Ohms
Sensitivity - 89dB @ 1w/1m using 2.83v (in room)
Hopefully this helps everyone in trying to match up new electronics to my speakers, so they compliment each other better.
Thanks!
SN
The impedance/phase graph would reveal the true story. You can borrow my measuring tool if you really want to know, DATS system from Parts Express. It will measure the impedance and phase. But since you have access to rpf's tube amp, and a set of ears, you don't really need to know the load details. See how the bass sounds to you with the 90W tube amp, compared to your present SS amp. If it is clear and punchy enough on several different types of LF music, then you are OK for tubes, as most transformer output tube amps have actual output impedance of about 1.5ohms. Then you need to hear how well the tube amp handles loud music with complex harmony (dissonance) preferably in high and low registers simultaneously. If it distorts audibly, or stresses out then you need more power. I can send you a short test track for this if you want.
Quote from: richidoo on May 29, 2012, 08:11:48 AM
The impedance/phase graph would reveal the true story. You can borrow my measuring tool if you really want to know, DATS system from Parts Express. It will measure the impedance and phase. But since you have access to rpf's tube amp, and a set of ears, you don't really need to know the load details. See how the bass sounds to you with the 90W tube amp, compared to your present SS amp. If it is clear and punchy enough on several different types of LF music, then you are OK for tubes, as most transformer output tube amps have actual output impedance of about 1.5ohms. Then you need to hear how well the tube amp handles loud music with complex harmony (dissonance) preferably in high and low registers simultaneously. If it distorts audibly, or stresses out then you need more power. I can send you a short test track for this if you want.
Thanks, Rich. I don't think I need to go to the extreme (at least for me) of plotting a impedance/phase graph with test equipment. I
do plan on setting something up with Rob soon to get a listen to his system with the Rogue integrated and then making arrangements to borrow it to listen to it in my system. If it's not too much trouble to send me the test track that you're talking about, that would be great!
Bill
Bill,
Here's another tube amp that I was trying to remember when this thread was fresh. I was reminded by the ad in Stereophile today.
It's made in your neighborhood, looks very nice indeed. It can use KT120 tubes.
http://rogershighfidelity.com/ (http://rogershighfidelity.com/)
StereoExchange and CSA Audio Design are dealers.
http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1010/rogers_high_fidelity_ehf100.htm (http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1010/rogers_high_fidelity_ehf100.htm)
Thanx, Rich! :thumb: