As some of you might already know, I decided to sell my SOTA Star Sapphire turntable. I really loved that deck and hated to see it go, but ever since completing the Garrard 401 project nearly a year ago the SOTA has not seen much use. It was hard to justify keeping it around merely as a showpiece. So it sold on Audiogon yesterday.
What I have not mentioned until now is that I have also sold my Aesthetix Rhea phono preamp. Overall I was more or less happy with its performance but I wasn't convinced it was a good match with my Ortofon SPU Gold Reference stereo MC cartridge. However, it was awesome with the Ortofon mono cart. I listed the Rhea on Audiogon yesterday, a few hours after the SOTA went up and it found a new owner this morning.
So now what to do? When I decided to sell the Rhea my first thought was to buy a pair of F-117 Nighthawks from Ray Samuels Audio. I owned one for over a year and really did like it quite a bit. Since it was powered by an internal lithium ion battery it was dead quiet and I felt it sounded great.
However, I see this change as an opportunity to experiment with moving coil step up transformers and pairing them with MM phono stages. I kicked this idea around about 18 months ago and never followed through. I noticed today that Bob's Devices SUTs have gone up in price across the board by about 25% so buying them new may not be the attractive option it once was. :( I'll have to think about that.
I do want to keep the cost at a sane level. So taking the roughly $4,000 in proceeds from SOTA/Rhea sale and putting it into another phono preamp is not in the cards. I want to try to keep the budget at $2,500, which is a little more than what I sold the Rhea for.
--Jerome
I think MM phonos with the right stepup transformers is sublime.
I also beleive that MC carts like to see transformers do the stepup.
I would look at Cinemag blue
Dave Slagle also makes some of the finest stepups available
The finest stepups I heard was the Ypsilon but expensive but truly world class.
Stay away from Stevens and Billington, not too good, but I have not heard their silver stepups.
Now MM phono stages....Hmmmmmmmmmmm...
There is a MiniMax phono on AGon right now for $1150. I just sent it to him a few days ago ,he changed his mind and he is offering it at a steal. This has our new step-up installed and is a better phono than the original with these new transformers.MC + MM capabilities. I believe he hasn't even opened the box.
+1 for Dave Slagle. Now using a MM phonostage with HOMC. For me KISS but not simpler. If you are looking for a high gain MC/MM phonostage I would recco Miracle Audio.
Looking for a step up trannie talk to Dave.
charles
Thanks for the replies. At the moment I am considering a pair of Soundsmith MMP3 Moving Magnet phono preamps matched to a pair of Cinemag step up transformers. It will cost a little more than I want to spend but the idea of using SUTs is starting to gain some traction with me.
I could start by buying a SUT and phono preamp for the stereo cartridge and then see how that goes. And if it works out well then I could buy a matching chain for the mono cartridge in the other arm.
--Jerome
My friend had that Soundsmith Phono preamp and it is very good! I have the red cinemags which are OK, not bad, but aweful when compared to Slagles, which I also have.
I have the blue Cinemags on the way to try as well, they are supposed to be a fair bit better than the reds, which would be a very good thing.
I love myCinemag reds but when I put Slagles trannies in everything improved alot. Many layers of separation, and a much deeper and wider soundstage, it was startling and not subtle at all.
Dave is also my friend, but that has nothing to do with my reccommendation, and I receive no kickback :rofl:
Jerome that combination you chose might turn out to be excellent, hope it works out for you and very interested to hear your thoughts on the combo.
Mike
Manley Chinook is 2500 list. It is a stripped down Steelhead.
http://www.manley.com/mch.php (http://www.manley.com/mch.php)
Something to bear in mind....I need two phono preamps or a phono preamp with two input channels since I have two tonearms.
I know it is a lot of expect to get that done for ~ $2,500 but I do believe it's possible.
--Jerome
Everything I know with two inputs is more than $2500, but anything is possible, especially used.
Maybe Peter Lederman will build you a custom unit with two inputs.
Business is dead for most audio outfits, you might be suprised what people are willing to do these days to make a buck.
As a side note regarding SUT's. Loading can be accomplished by loading plugs, loaded with your favorite resistor and value. This is by far a way better way to load your cart than by cheap ass computer dip switches. This is the simplest, cleanest and most direct way to load the cart, and allows the most adjustment by far. Once you find the value your cart likes , you can stick with any old resistor or play with different resistors. Since resistors are cheap , you can roll resistors and find the ones that work best in your system. And unlike tubes, will always sound the way they sound and not degrade as time passes, like tubes.
Cartidges run in the thousands of dollars, resistors in the single dollar range. So most people find a cartridge they like and stick with it. Once you have the cartridge you like you find the optimal value for loading and you will probably stick with it. You won't need tons of values to adjust since only one or two is all you will end up using anyway. Once you find your magic value you are done. You could use Vishays for classical, Tantalums for rock, and Holco for jazz, etc etc.
Or not... just plug and play and be happy.
My point being that loading a MC is critical. Using SUT's that allow loading plugs makes it easy to tweak, real easy, and allows you access to the sound you want, not the one that was preloaded into your phono pre by the designer.
Sort of like having a stepped attenuator loaded with the finest, most expensive resistors. Why bother? You only use maybe 5 of those steps when really listening to music, right?
The rest of the steps could be cheap resistors, it wouldn't matter because you never land on them anyway.
You just need to know which of the 5 steps you want the good stuff .
Sorry to ramble on , but I find SUT's fascinating, and a tremendous part of the vinyl aspect of the hobby. Yeah there are lots of great phono pre's, but SUT's make it so much easier and affordable to get great sound without breaking the bank. You may be surprised when you find the SUT that your cartridge likes and the synergy that hence flows, it becomes audio nirvana.....
Can one input be MC the other MM?
Quote from: Bill O'Connell on October 20, 2012, 10:10:57 PM
Can one input be MC the other MM?
Yes I suppose, since one cartridge is a low output MC and the other is a high output MC. But I don't want to switch inputs with a single phono preamp if I can avoid it.
--Jerome
Quote from: jsaliga on October 21, 2012, 02:22:48 AM
Quote from: Bill O'Connell on October 20, 2012, 10:10:57 PM
Can one input be MC the other MM?
Yes I suppose, since one cartridge is a low output MC and the other is a high output MC. But I don't want to switch inputs with a single phono preamp if I can avoid it.
--Jerome
After giving it more thought scratch that. The load impedance of the HOMC cartridge won't be a good fit for the typical MM phono stage.
--Jerome
Jerome I must respectfully disagree. MM loading is 47K. Most HOMC load at 47K. I'm using a Goldenote Boboli HOMC loaded at 47K. Never has my MM Loesch & Weisner phono pre sound so good. Previously used a Linn LP12 with an Arkiv cart [.15mv] loaded at 150ohms. The gain required was over 66DB. The Loesch could not drive the Arkiv. A SUT was used [ Lenco ] just did not care for the sound, Tried an AudioNote SUT same. No likey. When i tried a phono pre with 70 db of gain it was a huge improvement.
At Rocky Mountain in the Analysis room we used a Strain gauge Cart and phonostage. Yes expensive [ $10,000 ] but man O man was it good.
In lieu of the Soundsmith the Miracle Audio was a win win. Yes I rep Miracle Audio and glad I do. A new kid on the block that comes to play.
The most versatile phonostage I ever owned was a Stan Klyne SK5A. Never should have let that go. A work of art IMO. Hardly see them used for a reason.
I will again recco Daves' SUT line. He can and will design and build one to any spec or system. Not expensive either.
charles
Quote from: rollo on October 21, 2012, 07:17:28 AM
Most HOMC load at 47K.
Be that as it may, 47K is not a good fit for my particular cartridge. I have tested it with loads ranging from 100 ohms to 47K and find that SPU CG 25 sounds best loaded to between 200 and 300 ohms, and that is what most owners of this cartridge load it to.
I'm considering my choices very carefully and am in no rush.
--Jerome
I exchanged a few emails with Bob Sattin at Bob's Devices and made my decision.
I have ordered a Cinemag Blue 1131 SUT and will match it to a Soundsmith MMP3. I talked to Soundsmith today and there is more good news. For an extra $100 they will build a variation of the MMP3 phono preamp with custom gain and loading that I specify.
--Jerome
Good Luck :thumb:
Let us know how the Cinemag blues work out for you.
$1200 bucks is pretty steep for that level of performance. I paid $200 for my reds. One day call Dave Slagle, you will be shocked at what can happen with his SUT's.
Quote from: jsaliga on October 22, 2012, 02:24:48 PM
I exchanged a few emails with Bob Sattin at Bob's Devices and made my decision.
I have ordered a Cinemag Blue 1131 SUT and will match it to a Soundsmith MMP3. I talked to Soundsmith today and there is more good news. For an extra $100 they will build a variation of the MMP3 phono preamp with custom gain and loading that I specify.
--Jerome
Cool. Enjoy !! Let us know the outcome.
charles
Quote from: topround on October 22, 2012, 04:56:27 PM
$1200 bucks is pretty steep for that level of performance. I paid $200 for my reds. One day call Dave Slagle, you will be shocked at what can happen with his SUT's.
I don't get it Mike. Are you trying to give me buyer's remorse before I have even had a chance to give it a listen?
[-X
http://www.10audio.com/bob%27s_devices_1131_step_up.htm (http://www.10audio.com/bob%27s_devices_1131_step_up.htm)
--Jerome
Sorry I did not realize they were that much money, $1200 is alot of money. I have not heard them yet so i do not know, not trying to upset you, just that Slagles are a huge improvement over the reds, I hope the blue is a huge improvement over the reds.
I want you to be happy....really........ because I think you are going down the right path.
Call dave maybe he will wind a set for you to try, he is a great guy
Jerome Iknow I can be a pain in the ass, but not this time, I am not trying to piss you off. Art Dudley has the Blue Cinemags and he loves them, so they must be good
Quote from: topround on October 22, 2012, 05:50:33 PM
Sorry I did not realize they were that much money, $1200 is alot of money.
Well sure it is, at least to me. Toss in another $500 for a MM phono preamp that is $1,700 for one channel. I still have another tonearm to feed!
QuoteI have not heard them yet so i do not know
I didn't think that you had, which made your comment all the more puzzling. :?
QuoteI want you to be happy....really........ because I think you are going down the right path.
I never imagined that you hoped I would be disappointed. ;)
QuoteCall dave maybe he will wind a set for you to try, he is a great guy
I'm sure he has a great product but it was $300 more than the Cinemags, and it was just a bridge I wasn't willing to cross. I had to draw the line some place.
QuoteJerome Iknow I can be a pain in the ass, but not this time, I am not trying to piss you off.
Don't sweat it Mike. Being an occasional pain in the ass is part of the wonderfulness of you. (just kidding :rofl: )
Peace out. 8)
--Jerome
Quote... and it was just a bridge I wasn't willing to cross.
And they keep raising the tolls..... :duh
The Aesthetix Rhea and SOTA where shipped out yesterday. So long old friends.
The Cinemag 1131 SUT came in the mail today. Still waiting on the Soundsmith phono preamp. I placed my order on Monday and not a peep out of them so I called today. I was told that they build to order and the turnaround is about a week. Had I known that I would have ordered one from Acoustic Sounds since they had them in stock. No biggie. If I really miss the music I can hook up one of my backup phono preamps.
--Jerome
You can always listen to digital for awhile....... oh, wait.... ;)
Can't do that. I wouldn't want to pollute my analog wholesome goodness with that vile stuff. Sort of like wanting Chateau Latour and settling for Thunderbird or Boones Farm. :rofl:
--Jerome
(http://www.indierockfan.net/pics/NewPhonoSetup.jpg)
My new SUT and MM phono preamp setup has been in place for a while, but until recently I have not had a lot of time to do much critical listening.
Pairing a SUT with a solid state MM phono preamp might seem counter-intuitive, as most people are using them with tubed phono preamps. But I liked the idea of a passive gain stage for LOMC cartridges. I have two Soundsmith MMP3 solid state phono premaps. One is a standard 47K ohm 43db gain that is used with the Bob's Devices Cinemag 1131 Blue SUT, and the other one is customized with a 100 ohm load to match my Ortofon SPU mono cartridge.
This set up costs close to what I paid for the Aesthetix Rhea tube phono preamp that it replaced (I got mine used for about $2,400). The Cinemag/Soundsmith combo produces a much more satisfying sound than the Aesthetix Rhea. It has virtually no noise, with superior speed, dynamics, and detail.
That being said, owning the Rhea was an enlightening experience and I took away from it some lessons learned. I think the Rhea is a flawed design that produces good sound in spite of itself. The flaw I find in it is using tubes for all three gain stages. I could not find a 12AX7 quiet enough for the first gain stage, and it ending up injecting enough noise into the signal that eventually it started to bother me, even if I could not hear it with music playing. I would lift the tonearm and there it was. If you are considering using a tubed phono preamp with a LOMC cartridge then my advice would be make sure it has a built-in transformer for moving coils (some do) or buy a SUT to go with your LOMC cartridge of choice.
--Jerome
I just drove up and down rt 6 over T-giving to visit family in MA, next time I'm stopping at your door for a listen.
You're welcome to stop in. I'm sure we could find a record or two in my collection that you would like to give a listen. 8)
--Jerome