A good deal of you are already well aware of my system's recent reconfiguration from all solid state (Naim) electronics to a Dodd Battery VGP tube Pre-amp and N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Hybrid (Tube/Moscode) Amp.
It's not quite a full week yet with these two new pieces in the house, but so far things sound very promising. The one thing that may be hard to figure out is "what's contributing to what", considering there's more than one thing different in the system. Is it the Dodd pre... is it the Moscode 600... is it the new I/C's...??? Tough call.
Overall, I'm hearing detail in recordings that I didn't hear before along with a taller and deeper soundstage that I'm assuming is attributed to the Dodd. The system is sounding relaxed and effortless, which I'm thinking is all of the reserve power from the Moscode 600. Overall, there's a more natural and less Hi-fi like presentation with more "body" now, which I think is the combination of the Dodd and the Moscode together.
The one thing I am surprised about is that I went from "zero" tubes (all S.S.) to having 11 tubes in the system now (4 in the Dodd and 7 in the Moscode) and yet there's not an exaggerated "tubey" sound that one might expect.
I'm sure the roller coaster ride through the break in period will not be fun, but hopefully the end result will be worth it once everything settles in.
T.B.C.
I'll definitely be tuned in to the updates. I've been a mostly solid state kind of guy and have gotten my feet a little wet with tubes. Mostly i've been using tube buffers and tube dacs. I'll post my thoughts on that when I'm less tired. I don't think I could take a change as drastic as you did with tube preamps and tube amps. Too many variables for my head to wrap around. I like to keep some things constant.
Tube rolling can be a crazy. I'm looking at the box of tubes I accumulated just this year alone and wondering if I just went a little overboard.
Enjoy your system and I hope break-in isn't a pain. You should read the Morrow Audio literature. The break-in process is like a roller coaster ride.
Thanks, SG24! :thumb:
Hopefully break-in won't be too "painful". I've just gotta convince myself it's a "necessary evil" within the process and just "gut it out!"
I will keep everyone posted as best as possible. Getting in listening time can sometimes be difficult in my house, but I get in as much as I can get, when I can get it.
Stay tuned!
SN
One may fool with tubes in the Moscode but I would leave the Dodd as is. Gary has tried different tubes and he prefers the ones chosen.
That is the reason for the over tubey sound. The 6H30 version isn direct comparison even more neutral than the 12BH VGP model without losing the glory of da tube.
Two different presentations both good. Bill expect 200 hours for the pre. About 100 for the Moscode.
The 6H30 with about 200 is getting there. I tell ya a love hate relationship for sure. ENJOY !!!!!!
charles
Quote from: rollo on January 23, 2013, 10:26:45 AM
One may fool with tubes in the Moscode but I would leave the Dodd as is. Gary has tried different tubes and he prefers the ones chosen.
That is the reason for the over tubey sound. The 6H30 version isn direct comparison even more neutral than the 12BH VGP model without losing the glory of da tube.
Two different presentations both good. Bill expect 200 hours for the pre. About 100 for the Moscode.
The 6H30 with about 200 is getting there. I tell ya a love hate relationship for sure. ENJOY !!!!!!
charles
Charles
With all of the variables I have going on right now in my "new" system, the last thing I plan on doing to further complicate things is to start tube rolling! I have enough faith in Gary Dodd and George Kaye to think they know their creations better than anybody else and have their circuits designed to get the most out of the tubes they've chosen. Somewhere, waaaaaaaaay further down the road I may get to experimenting with trying different tubes, but not now or anytime soon!
As far as the "overly tubey sound" goes, you may (?) have mis-read what I wrote earlier in my original post here. I was surprised that going from all S.S. to eleven (4 in Pre and 7 in Amp) tubes did
NOT give me an "overly tubey sound".
I just keep repeating the word "patience" over and over to myself! :duh
SN
Patience for what?
It should sound at least good right out of the box,, no?
I mean if they sounded like shit when they were new no one would have bought one.
Could imagine a slippery audio salesman saying,"Sir I know this sounds like shit, but in a month or two it will blow your mind!"
Remember that bridge for sale?
Sometimes I think we audiophiles take burn in as a pill to remedy what we don't like. We expect burn in to solve all problems.
Sorry but a piece of gear should sound good to begin with and only get better with some time on it.
I know I am a pain in the ass, but let's be real.
Bill it is slippery slope you are on, because this thread is so active everyone is waiting with baited breath.
If you are not happy everyone will know it, and honestly many times happiness does not come, Sales pitch is just pitch, the gear may be good but in your system it may not work out to match the pitch.
Again i know I am a pain in the ass.
It is great to be excited over a piece of gear, but sometimes we set ourselves up for disappointment if it truly does not delight.
And I may tell you my gear delights the hell out of me, but when i put my head to pillow I will know the truth if I am really happy with the results or not.
I learned the hard way(like us all) to be honest with yourself, if something bothers you or you think something is wrong or you just don't like the gear be honest with yourself and move on. Go ahead give it the time to burn in, maybe it will improve enough to please you, maybe over time you will come to accept it and love it, but in the end be honest.
Audiogon is full of "honest" decisions to sell a piece for many good reasons.
So "patience" may not be what you need in the end, but I truly hope your patience fills your needs.
Again I know I am a pain in the ass, but I am not trying to be one right now!
Mike
Quote from: topround on January 23, 2013, 12:04:05 PM
Patience for what?
It should sound at least good right out of the box,, no?
I mean if they sounded like shit when they were new no one would have bought one.
Could imagine a slippery audio salesman saying,"Sir I know this sounds like shit, but in a month or two it will blow your mind!"
Remember that bridge for sale?
Sometimes I think we audiophiles take burn in as a pill to remedy what we don't like. We expect burn in to solve all problems.
Sorry but a piece of gear should sound good to begin with and only get better with some time on it.
I know I am a pain in the ass, but let's be real.
Bill it is slippery slope you are on, because this thread is so active everyone is waiting with baited breath.
If you are not happy everyone will know it, and honestly many times happiness does not come, Sales pitch is just pitch, the gear may be good but in your system it may not work out to match the pitch.
Again i know I am a pain in the ass.
It is great to be excited over a piece of gear, but sometimes we set ourselves up for disappointment if it truly does not delight.
And I may tell you my gear delights the hell out of me, but when i put my head to pillow I will know the truth if I am really happy with the results or not.
I learned the hard way(like us all) to be honest with yourself, if something bothers you or you think something is wrong or you just don't like the gear be honest with yourself and move on. Go ahead give it the time to burn in, maybe it will improve enough to please you, maybe over time you will come to accept it and love it, but in the end be honest.
Audiogon is full of "honest" decisions to sell a piece for many good reasons.
So "patience" may not be what you need in the end, but I truly hope your patience fills your needs.
Again I know I am a pain in the ass, but I am not trying to be one right now!
Mike
Mike
Right "outta da box" everything is sounding very good. No-where in my prior posts did I say that anything sounded bad! As far as my "having/needing patience" comment goes, it was in context to surviving the "break-in roller-coaster ride" that everyone tells me to expect; including George Kaye and Gary Dodd. Whether I experience the predicted "sonic downturn" after the initial 40-50 hours and then the reversal back towards better sound, only time will tell.
Lets face it... 2/3rd's of my main component electronics have changed in my system; so it no doubt is going to sound different. Initially, there's a lot to like here. There's an overall fuller, richer sound than what my Naim electronics gave me, but I'm missing just a wee teenie-weenie little bit of PRAT. Then again (under the category of "who sez you can't teach an old dog new tricks") I've learned by auditioning other equipment in my home the last few months that Naim's "signature" PRAT directly relates to Naim's somewhat thinner overall sound. It's a very difficult task to achieve both in one's system; at least on my budget anyway!
My system has more information and subtle nuances coming through than ever before. The music has a deeper (front <> back) and taller sound stage (without losing any of the width) and there's more layering now. The bottom end has really picked up a lot of body and more detail. You can hear how the guy playing stand-up bass plucks the strings differently from one part to the next in a song.
The system has plenty of "balls" with the Moscode and it plays absolutely effortlessly. Unbelievably, after 25+ years of Naim solid state, it's the "more musical, less Hi-fi" sound that I now need to become accustomed to!
It's funny, the system sounds more relaxed and natural; like you can just listen to it for hours and hours...
- it's just that I'm not used to it. :duh
SN
P.S. - Mike you can be a pain in the ass sometimes (not that I think you're being one here) but you're also not afraid to speak your mind. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you approach it from a "live and let live" perspective. I appreciate your input here. :thumb:
Thanks Bill.
and yes I will always speak my mind, until I get banned.
There is too much BS, misinformation, urban legend and stupidity in this hobby.
What we need is honesty
and that is what i am after.
After my rave if you think my system sucked please say it, don't say how gracious i was or how good the food was or how cute my cats are.
Just say it as it is, this way we all can learn
ok lets get back to burn in...zzzz
Part of the burn in is physical changes in the gear, but a bigger part is mental. You have to adjust yourself to the new gear. It will not be "perfect" after it is fully burned in. It will be different and you have to change how you perceive music to adapt to the new sound and eventually feel it as normal. It doesn't take long, but it is a process. The system is just a tool. You have to practice with the new golf club until it becomes part of you. You are the listening experience. Learning to run the brain is the ultimate tweak.
When you start listening to different kinds of music that you didn't listen to with the Naims, then you'll know you are mentally adjusted. The system 'tail' wags the audiophile 'dog.'
Quote from: richidoo on January 23, 2013, 09:59:27 PM
...The system 'tail' wags the audiophile 'dog.'
That is such a great line, Rich. You should make that your Avatar or Signature line before I steal it! :thumb:
Mike, you're a pain in the ass!
[-o< aa :lmc:
Quote from: StereoNut on January 23, 2013, 11:21:42 AM
Quote from: rollo on January 23, 2013, 10:26:45 AM
One may fool with tubes in the Moscode but I would leave the Dodd as is. Gary has tried different tubes and he prefers the ones chosen.
That is the reason for the over tubey sound. The 6H30 version isn direct comparison even more neutral than the 12BH VGP model without losing the glory of da tube.
Two different presentations both good. Bill expect 200 hours for the pre. About 100 for the Moscode.
The 6H30 with about 200 is getting there. I tell ya a love hate relationship for sure. ENJOY !!!!!!
charles
Charles
With all of the variables I have going on right now in my "new" system, the last thing I plan on doing to further complicate things is to start tube rolling! I have enough faith in Gary Dodd and George Kaye to think they know their creations better than anybody else and have their circuits designed to get the most out of the tubes they've chosen. Somewhere, waaaaaaaaay further down the road I may get to experimenting with trying different tubes, but not now or anytime soon!
As far as the "overly tubey sound" goes, you may (?) have mis-read what I wrote earlier in my original post here. I was surprised that going from all S.S. to eleven (4 in Pre and 7 in Amp) tubes did NOT give me an "overly tubey sound".
I just keep repeating the word "patience" over and over to myself! :duh
SN
Bill sorry for the confusion. What I meant was in direct comparison to the 6H30 model the VGP is a richer presentation but not tubey. Did not explain myself properly.
charles
If the unit after coming up to proper operating temperature straight out of the box sounds good it will sound better after some hours.
It is a known and recognized fact that the dielectrics must settle. That takes time. Some caps like the Blackgates appear to never fully break in. The solder joints alone take about 30 hours.
Now if one believes that the break in period is BS so be it. Could it be that the break in process is a way of fooling us to get used to what we are now hearing. I truly do not know.
The caps of today have more dielectric than previous designs and the manf. [ V-cap } recco some 400 hours.
I tell ya the 6H30 model I'm burning in now has changed dramatically since turning it on. Have been listening every 24 hours of time put on. Clearly there have been improvements. Dodd says that you will hate it for the first 75 hours or so. He was spot on. Now the top is coming around. Before over detailed and hard. I could never get used to a hard sound no matter how long I listened.
So for me break in is a reality.
charles
Edited for brevity...
Quote from: rollo on January 24, 2013, 09:54:08 AM
Quote from: StereoNut on January 23, 2013, 11:21:42 AM
Quote from: rollo on January 23, 2013, 10:26:45 AM
One may fool with tubes in the Moscode but I would leave the Dodd as is. Gary has tried different tubes and he prefers the ones chosen.
That is the reason for the over tubey sound. The 6H30 version isn direct comparison even more neutral than the 12BH VGP model without losing the glory of da tube.
Two different presentations both good. Bill expect 200 hours for the pre. About 100 for the Moscode.
The 6H30 with about 200 is getting there. I tell ya a love hate relationship for sure. ENJOY !!!!!!
charles
...As far as the "overly tubey sound" goes, you may (?) have mis-read what I wrote earlier in my original post here. I was surprised that going from all S.S. to eleven (4 in Pre and 7 in Amp) tubes did NOT give me an "overly tubey sound"...
SN
Bill sorry for the confusion. What I meant was in direct comparison to the 6H30 model the VGP is a richer presentation but not tubey. Did not explain myself properly.
charles
Thanks for the clarification, Charles! :thumb:
How can anyone sell a piece of gear that sounds awful for the first 75 hours?
It should take 2 hours to show its true self, then a few 100 after that to loosen up and and open up a bit.
We all know what burn in is and have experienced it , that is Audio 101, that's for newbies, not for us.
You have to trust your ears, if something is amiss or bothers you then it is real. Burn in may help bit it will never solve your problem.
And there lies the crux of the problem.
Building a system is difficult, getting impedances correct, getting gear that works well together, trying to get some degree of synergy,setting up the speakers correctly, addressing the room, these are difficult problems often overlooked for the sake of burn in.
How many people live with systems they are unhappy with, simply because the numbers match, or the price was high, or it looks good, or people say it is great, or it is the flavor of the month, only to be unhappy in the end.
I know I am guilty :duh
Quote from: topround on January 24, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
How can anyone sell a piece of gear that sounds awful for the first 75 hours?
It should take 2 hours to show its true self, then a few 100 after that to loosen up and and open up a bit.
We all know what burn in is and have experienced it , that is Audio 101, that's for newbies, not for us.
You have to trust your ears, if something is amiss or bothers you then it is real. Burn in may help bit it will never solve your problem.
And there lies the crux of the problem.
Building a system is difficult, getting impedance's correct, getting gear that works well together, trying to get some degree of synergy,setting up the speakers correctly, addressing the room, these are difficult problems often overlooked for the sake of burn in.
How many people live with systems they are unhappy with, simply because the numbers match, or the price was high, or it looks good, or people say it is great, or it is the flavor of the month, only to be unhappy in the end.
I know I am guilty :duh
I guess you will have to ask all his many satisfied customers. Agreed after two hours to come to temp you will know. Yes after a "few hundred" hours it does open up. During that time it changes along the way. Gary stated that about 50 hours in I would hate it. He was correct. Gary was honest and absolutely correct about his design. Out of the box sounded VG to me then stated changing as he stated.
Now with 200 hours as suggested by Gary we are very pleased with the preamp. The hardness is gone and the sound stage opened up big time. Now ready for prime time.
If a component sounds bad it is bad. No sugar coating. I guess there may be some confused puppies out there but a general statement is unfair to the manf. and owner. If one is stubborn or kidding themselves they are are only fooling themselves. I will agree with that.
For us its different. We are evaluating the Dodd preamps for sale consideration. So before we invest in a new line we put it through its paces. This is business for us we do not fool ourselves that costs money. We try it in as many different systems that we can. In all fairness to the manf, we go with their recommendations for break in and set up. Then the piece has zero excuse but sonic value. So if the manf. tells me 200 hours then 200 hours it is before evaluation. It's only fair. Me for one would never get used to or talked into a component that sounds bad, no matter how long we listened or how much we can make. Never.
If one is not honest to themselves in what they hear then it is their issue not everyone. I understand where you are coming from and respect your opinion just disagree about break in, that's all. 8)
charles
It looks like this discussion has come to a point where you guys are talking about the same thing and generally agreeing but using different words. You know guys I think we need to check some of our references and vocabulary here. When we talk about something sounding bad in most cases it is a relative, not an absolute reference. We all have very high standards here. Most of the time when we say something sounds bad it is not that it is bad like the sound of a cheap walkman, but rather just not up to the standard that we have for a piece of audiophile gear and in particular what we think the piece we are listening to should sound like given the price we paid for it. For example, If I had a $300 DAC nad upgraded to a $2000 DAC the results would (hopefully) be that I was very happy because the sound of the $2k unit was much better than the $300 one and I would say the new one sounded good. However, If I just purchased a $5k DAC and during the break-in time it sounded just like the just discussed $2k DAC we would say that unit sounded bad even though it sounded exactly the same as the one we were so happy with when it was an upgrade for a $300 DAC. Does a $5k sound horrible when it is breaking in and sounding like the $2k one, not really, it just doesn't sound like what we were hoping a $5k DAC to sound like.
So I agree with Mike, it is rare that a manufacturer would ship a unit that sounds offensive right out of the box and most sound pretty darn good. But I also do not disagree that most will change over time as they settle in and most will different sound (and hopefully better) better in the end.
The unit sounded VG out of the box. It was about 50-75 hours in that Dodd stated it would change to a sound that I would not like. After 200 hours of playing time it should sound as designed. Dodd was correct.
Gary and myself were being honest telling it as it is. The end result is what matters. Usually if a manf. tells me 200 hours the component gets broken in not listened to until the 200 hours are up. IMO the new caps these days take 400 hours to sound their best from my experience. Some more, like blackgates and V-cap.
This time I thought it would be interesting to report along the way. If the Dodd pre was not up to snuff you will know, if it is you will know as well.
Should be getting a PIAudio Battery Buss soon to evaluate with the Dodd. Let the break in force be with you.
charles
Quote from: rollo on January 28, 2013, 08:37:30 AM
...Let the break in force be with you.
charles
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sw018.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Quote from: StereoNut on January 28, 2013, 08:53:41 AM
Quote from: rollo on January 28, 2013, 08:37:30 AM
...Let the break in force be with you.
charles
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sw018.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Gallactic forces are the reason. Ah the magnetic force of the Sun in relationship to the earths poles. But that is every other Tuesday. I perfer Quantum break in. Jabba told me so.
Kidding aside what are your break in experience with the Dodd ?
charles
Quote from: rollo on January 28, 2013, 09:43:33 AM
Kidding aside what are your break in experience with the Dodd ?
charles
So far, so good. (You can refer back to my original post & reply#6 in this thread for my initial impressions.) I only have about 60 hours or so on it, so the anticipated 75 hour "downturn" hasn't arrived yet. As soon as something changes (for better or for worse) I will post more of my thoughts. Considering the things I've heard so far, this (the Dodd Pre) and my Moscode amp will be here to stay for a (hopefully) good, long while.
T.B.C.
SN
I have noticed on a couple of amps and preamps that it sounds perfect when I first use it... Either just after a big upgrade, or brand new. Then it starts to get weird... for 200 hours there is a roller coaster of the gear sounding harsh, sometimes veiled, and some other shifts to the sound. After that 200 hour point it tends to stabilize.
I believe the reason is new capacitors. They change as the current changes them. I believe I've read scientific papers about this effect... it's not just break-in, it's settling or something.
When you have an extremely revealing system and a trained ear, it's pretty excruciating to listen to a new system go through it's first 200 hours.
If Gary says his needs twice that, I could understand that if he is using big caps with small voltage.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113679.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113679.0)
Quote from: lonewolfny42 on January 29, 2013, 09:41:43 PM
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113679.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113679.0)
Alright, Boys and Girls... anybody have any ideas as to how we can help Gary out?
SN
Sounds like he needs money, bottom line. I think he outlines what he could use pretty well on his post at AC.
I wish him well.
Quote from: StereoNut on January 30, 2013, 06:42:12 AM
Quote from: lonewolfny42 on January 29, 2013, 09:41:43 PM
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113679.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113679.0)
Alright, Boys and Girls... anybody have any ideas as to how we can help Gary out?
SN
Dave Elledge from PI Audio Group & I are working on a very special project together for Gary. All proceeds will go to Gary... Be on the lookout!Pete
In regards to lack of "tubey" sound in your rig, the Dodd has always been known for a clarity that belies its tube nature. Even going back to the review in 6moons years ago, clarity and detail were highlighted as being almost SS in nature, but without any harshness. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dodd/dodd.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dodd/dodd.html)
I've always thought that the Moscode/combo was a very musical yet detailed match. And if the newer version is like my original battery pre, tube rolling can make a world of difference (always, dammit, with tradeoffs-there is no perfect tube!).
I'm not surprised that you were please with the sound right out of the box. These are both very good products.
Scott
Thanks for the reply, Scott.
Until everything is broken in fully, I don't want to add another variable to things by tube rolling. Most likely (but not for a while, I need to just listen to things and relax for while) the next thing I will do is delve into trying different I/C's. Tube swapping will be in the immortal words of Eric Clapton, "further on up the road." :lol:
SN
Absolutely, tube rolling is a form of insanity for you to look forward to in the future, not something to muddy the waters when evaluating a new system.
Scott
Yeah, I would get used to the sound for a few months before you make any changes. IC will make little difference, but tube rolling will probably make a very noticeable difference, which you make or may not like.
If you've got tubes lying around, what's the harm in experimenting? I only have 2 tubes to roll so I would always roll to dial in the sound I like.
It's easy and fun to roll!
Bill how many tubaroonies in the Moscode [5] ? What types ? I agrre with Carlman and Joe. Prudent to wait, lets see how long you can put off the nervosa. :-P
charles
Quote from: rollo on February 03, 2013, 09:08:58 AM
Bill how many tubaroonies in the Moscode [5] ? What types ? I agrre with Carlman and Joe. Prudent to wait, lets see how long you can put off the nervosa. :-P
charles
Seven tubes total for the Moscode 600
According to the manual:
The two 6LU8 are High Voltage regulator
2 of the 6DJ8 are Diff. Voltage Amp
1 of the 6DJ8 are a volt Regulator
2 of the 6FQ7 are a Cascode Follower
Although, George put a matched set of (4) 6GU7'S in place of what normally would be (2) 6DJ8's and (2) 6FQ7's when he updated my amp.
SN
You might find this article helpful Bill. Explains what those tubes are and how they came about.
http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt (http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt)
Quote from: richidoo on February 04, 2013, 06:24:20 AM
You might find this article helpful Bill. Explains what those tubes are and how they came about.
http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt (http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt)
Thanx, Rich! :thumb:
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! What is the verdict so far uncle tupelo !
BTW what brand of 6FQ7 and 6DJ8 tubes ?
charles
Good question, Sir Charles! :)
About a month ago (see reply#20) I was up to about 60 hours of break in with the Dodd and Moscode 600. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten that much more time logged onto the system (maybe another 20 or so hours?) because of my determination to get my vinyl rig set up again (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=3719.0 (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=3719.0)) thus my lack of commentary lately.
So far (even with about 80 hours in) I haven't gotten to that "drop off" that you and Gary said to expect in the break-in process. Nonetheless, my system is sounding really, really good. It is absolutely the LEAST Hi-fi sounding combination of components I have ever had in my house!
If it's going to continue to get even better with more hours on it, I can't wait.
T.B.C.
SN
P.S. - I also have added another T.W.L. cord to my system, so ALL of my cords are now Triode Wire Labs cords. I'm sure that didn't hurt things any! ;) Thanks, Pete!
It's time for an update, Bill. What is your impression of the Moscode upgrades? What about that Dodd?
Scott
Quote from: S Clark on March 03, 2013, 04:52:21 PM
It's time for an update, Bill. What is your impression of the Moscode upgrades? What about that Dodd?
Scott
Hi Scott
My last comment was only 4 days ago. (See reply#36 above.) As I've said before, it's tough to distinguish what changes in my system can be attributed to what as far as the Upgraded Moscode 600 vs. the new Dodd VGP Pre-amp.
Things just seem to continue to get better as I get more hours logged in to the system. I think I mentioned a few details in my earlier posts on first impressions... there's a better depth of soundstage with more layering and more subtle details going on that I am guessing is the Dodd. The overall relaxed, effortless feel is most likely the Moscode 600's seemingly limitless "horsepower".
Like I wrote in my last post... (this) "is
absolutely the
LEAST Hi-fi sounding combination of components I have ever had in my house!" I don't think I can sum it up much better than that. :)
T.B.C.
SN
George had done some cap and resistor upgrades to my 401HR (with noticeable differences in bass), but I have a 300 that is currently in the shop with Gary D. I was thinking that your experience with the 600 might give me insight as to what to do with it. It's already had most of George's upgrades, but I was thinking of having even better caps put in.
Quote from: S Clark on March 04, 2013, 07:18:23 AM
George had done some cap and resistor upgrades to my 401HR (with noticeable differences in bass), but I have a 300 that is currently in the shop with Gary D. I was thinking that your experience with the 600 might give me insight as to what to do with it. It's already had most of George's upgrades, but I was thinking of having even better caps put in.
Hi Scott
My 600 had all of the Kaye mods already done when I bought it except the MIT Multi Caps. George went through the whole amp and "freshened up" whatever needed to be addressed considering it's age.
See attached screen-grab for details.
(I hope this helps!?!)
Bill
Now, all you need is one of these...
Quote from: StereoNut on March 03, 2013, 05:24:22 PM
feel is most likely the Moscode 600's seemingly limitless "horsepower".
Bill while the Moscode's output is not limitless it does have significant horsepower. Since mine is pushing 600 wpc into the T4 ohm Thiel CS-3.5s in the mini-mancave I have always liked to respond to questions about its output by telling people that it was a 1.6 horsepower amp. :rofl:
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/watt-to-hp.htm (http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/watt-to-hp.htm)
Quote from: Triode Pete on March 08, 2013, 03:21:07 PM
Now, all you need is one of these...
I would've bid on the Dodd Donation Edition, but there was no way I could've gone for the $1,700.00 for it.
Maybe, someday!?!
SN
Quote from: tmazz on March 09, 2013, 04:54:17 AM
Quote from: StereoNut on March 03, 2013, 05:24:22 PM
feel is most likely the Moscode 600's seemingly limitless "horsepower".
Bill while the Moscode's output is not limitless it does have significant horsepower. Since mine is pushing 600 wpc into the T4 ohm Thiel CS-3.5s in the mini-mancave I have always liked to respond to questions about its output by telling people that it was a 1.6 horsepower amp. :rofl:
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/watt-to-hp.htm (http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/watt-to-hp.htm)
Is that
with STP or without!?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Quote from: StereoNut on March 09, 2013, 06:24:49 AM
Quote from: tmazz on March 09, 2013, 04:54:17 AM
Quote from: StereoNut on March 03, 2013, 05:24:22 PM
feel is most likely the Moscode 600's seemingly limitless "horsepower".
Bill while the Moscode's output is not limitless it does have significant horsepower. Since mine is pushing 600 wpc into the T4 ohm Thiel CS-3.5s in the mini-mancave I have always liked to respond to questions about its output by telling people that it was a 1.6 horsepower amp. :rofl:
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/watt-to-hp.htm (http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/watt-to-hp.htm)
Is that with STP or without!?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
You pay me now, or you pay me later......
Or in the case of this amp, you send it now and you wait 'til later. :rofl:
Campy,
Your system sounded fantastic today. Night & Day different than your old Naim system... for the better, by far (at least to my ears!)
Dynamics, detail, musicality, etc... :thumb:
Stick a fork in your ass, you're DONE! :rofl: Actually just get some sound absorbing egg crate to eliminate that annoying Moscode convection fan noise... :duh
Congrats,
Pete
Congratulations Bill! :yay2: :dj:
Quote from: Triode Pete on March 09, 2013, 01:18:44 PM
Campy,
Your system sounded fantastic today. Night & Day different than your old Naim system... for the better, by far (at least to my ears!)
Dynamics, detail, musicality, etc... :thumb:
Stick a fork in your ass, you're DONE! :rofl: Actually just get some sound absorbing egg crate to eliminate that annoying Moscode convection fan noise... :duh
Congrats,
Pete
Thanks, Pete! I'm glad you and Rob got a chance to hear it today. Yes, there's a big difference from what I had and where my system is now. I was happy with my Naim system and all of the incremental changes along the way that I made for 25+ years. It (my old system) served me well and it certainly wasn't a "slouch" sonically, but compared to what I'm currently listening to, there really is no comparison... and (like you said) all for the better! :thumb:
I will hunt down some of that "egg crate" sound absorber stuff and place that behind the Moscode. You can't hear the fan with the music playing, but it would be nice to quiet it down anyway.
Thanks for coming over.
Bill
(a.k.a Campy... or SN!)
P.S. to Rob - Thanks for adding to the "eats" and bringing dessert! :drool:
P.P.S. to Pete - The reason my system sounds so good is because (except for the Dodd battery powered Pre-amp) it has T.W.L. Power cords throughout! ;)
Quote from: richidoo on March 09, 2013, 03:57:35 PM
Congratulations Bill! :yay2: :dj:
Thanks, Rich. Next time you're up this far North, you have to stop by for a listen and some home cookin'!
Bill
Quote from: StereoNut on March 09, 2013, 07:32:48 PM
Quote from: Triode Pete on March 09, 2013, 01:18:44 PM
Campy,
Your system sounded fantastic today. Night & Day different than your old Naim system... for the better, by far (at least to my ears!)
Dynamics, detail, musicality, etc... :thumb:
Stick a fork in your ass, you're DONE! :rofl: Actually just get some sound absorbing egg crate to eliminate that annoying Moscode convection fan noise... :duh
Congrats,
Pete
Thanks, Pete! I'm glad you and Rob got a chance to hear it today. Yes, there's a big difference from what I had and where my system is now. I was happy with my Naim system and all of the incremental changes along the way that I made for 25+ years. It (my old system) served me well and it certainly wasn't a "slouch" sonically, but compared to what I'm currently listening to, there really is no comparison... and (like you said) all for the better! :thumb:
I will hunt down some of that "egg crate" sound absorber stuff and place that behind the Moscode. You can't hear the fan with the music playing, but it would be nice to quiet it down anyway.
Thanks for coming over.
Bill
(a.k.a Campy... or SN!)
P.S. to Rob - Thanks for adding to the "eats" and bringing dessert! :drool:
P.P.S. to Pete - The reason my system sounds so good is because (except for the Dodd battery powered Pre-amp) it has T.W.L. Power cords throughout! ;)
FAN BOY !!! :roll: :lol: me too.
charles
Quote from: rollo on March 18, 2013, 10:49:12 AM
Quote from: StereoNut on March 09, 2013, 07:32:48 PM
P.P.S. to Pete - The reason my system sounds so good is because (except for the Dodd battery powered Pre-amp) it has T.W.L. Power cords throughout! ;)
FAN BOY !!! :roll: :lol: me too.
charles
+2
Quote from: rollo on February 03, 2013, 09:08:58 AM
Bill how many tubaroonies in the Moscode [5] ? What types ? I agrre with Carlman and Joe. Prudent to wait, lets see how long you can put off the nervosa. :-P
charles
Hi Charles
Sorry for such a delay in answering this. I just couldn't find the right scrap of paper with the notes I wrote down from one of my many conversations with George Kaye until now.
The N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 has 7 tubes in it as follows:
• The two outer-most tubes are 6GU7's as Diff. Voltage Amp tubes, I think? :? (George says that using 6FQ7's here can sound a bit harsh.) 6H30's can be another upgrade choice, but they're much more $$$ expensive.
• The 2nd. tubes in from each side (counting from the outside/in) are also 6GU7's as Cascode followers. There's a matched quad of them in my amp. (George said that using 6FQ7's in this position is acceptable, unlike the outer most tubes described above.)
• The next tubes in line are the BIGGER 6LU8's, which are High Voltage regulator tubes.
• Lastly, the one middle tube is a 6DJ8 as a volt Regulator.
I hope this helps answer the question for you. Oh, BTW - I have not even thought of rolling any tubes yet!!! :)
SN
I've found that tube rolling on my Moscode is rather subtle, whereas tube rolling my Dodd pre can create major changes. We don't have quite the same Moscode, but the Dodd's are very similar in sound. I'd be very interested to see if your impressions parallel mine.
Scott