I know the accepted knowledge (belief) is that a big room is better for an audio system than a small room. But I keep getting attracted to the benefits of a smaller room and want to discuss it with you.
Big room makes reflections take longer to reachj your ear, thus interfering less with the direct radiating sound in your mind. If there's enough time gap between the direct sound from the speaker and the first reflection then we can filter out the reflections in the mind. Less listening fatigue, more relaxed feeling.
Small room reflections would hit the ear too soon. But small room has much less surface wall area, so it can be more easily treated to attenuate wall reflections. You could make an anechoic chamber relatively inexpensively, or allow enough room reflection to taste. Difficult to damp a big room effectively juggling WAF and budget.
Small room is usually a spare bedroom or other space that can be completely claimed and owned in every aspect by the audiophile. Acoustic treatments won't meet with the usual decorator's judgement drivel.
Small room has a locking door, the space is private, no disturbance during deep listening trance.
Bass modes worse in a small room? Hmmm, not sure about that. Bass modes exist in every room with reflective surfaces. Low bass moves through traditional stick and drywall walls whether the room is big or small. Mid bass will start to bounce around. Smaller room will create more modes up higher where they are easy to kill, but low bass modes will not be reflecting, they will just be pressurizing, right? I mean wavelengths larger than the room dimensions. Those modes which are very difficult to cure with absorption will not be modes. Is this correct or wrong? Same reason a subwoofer box doesn't need bracing, let it swell, the wavelengths inside it never small enough to reflect and disturb cone motion. Speed of sound and all that jazz. Where's my Floyd Toole book?
Smaller room can place absorption strategically, at the exact location on the wall where it can kill a node where SPL is lowest and velocity is highest at a given frequency. Maybe that's 6 places for 2 speakers. In a huge room it might be 40 places at the same freq, so wall treatments are generally ineffective because there is rarely enough treatment applied or acceptable.
A small room can better deal with bass FR using swarm technique, or distributed subs. Smaller subs playing with less power give the same FR due to cabin effect at LF.
Small rooms can be more easily heated and cooled, so it can be more comfortable in there, less drafty. Class A amps in a small room could be a problem in summer.
Smaller speakers can be used, needing less power. Budget tilts away from speakers amps and treatment towards source and content.
Big rooms allow friends to come share the music with you, audiophiles, dance parties and kids. Listening in a common space keeps you in the family activities. How do you value privacy vs belonging? How do those other peoples' presence affect what you listen to? Would you still listen to those modern harpsichord sonatas? Up loud? Do you yell at the stereo like me when something really good happens, or really bad? Privacy of a small room. Ahhhhhh...
A small room makes it easier to control the spread of noise throughout the house. Large common areas can't be closed off, sound goes everywhere, with late night requests to turn it down. Small room playing is satisfying with lower volume, door is closed. Even isolation can be used in small room if necessary.
What else?
Is your listening room big or small? Shared or private? Do you like it, what would you change?
nice write up. How about dealing with a finished basement? I have heard that is quite different from a regular room.
Is your listening room big or small? Shared or private? Do you like it, what would you change?
Howdy Rich,
Am I an audiophile ?? I do not consider my self an audiophile.
Am I a nut you bet'cha. :shock:
My room is small approx 10.5 x 10.5 that I built in my basement and has only one very small window to allow some natural light. I have some room treatments and yes they helped big time. Yes the door does have a lock and to the best of my knowledge my wife has only stepped in there once to help me bring in a chair. She has no desire to go in and I have no desire to let her in. :rofl: :rofl: I had no idea that when I built this room that a sqaure room for audio was a no-no. Do I like that it is a cozy space ?? In a word yes. When etcarroll stopped by he said that he understood the appeal. Now after all that and finding out just last night that my house will not be sucked up by the widening Rt. 80 (eminent domain) I plan on building a slightly larger room in the very near future. It would be approx. 12 X 14. The now audio room will be an office of sorts. (a private place for my computer). I really don't need an office.
Rich I don't know if you remember but I do have a problem picking up the local radio station thru my phono stage or cartridge. When I build the next room I plan on attaching chicken wire to the walls and ceilings and then grounding the whole deal to the water pipe coming in from the street. I was told that this would act as a Faraday cage and help stamp out the radio station interference.
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(http://cd8ba0b44a15c10065fd-24461f391e20b7336331d5789078af53.r23.cf1.rackcdn.com/polkaudio.vanillaforums.com/editor/rg/rjikpfhrmf2f.jpg)
(http://cd8ba0b44a15c10065fd-24461f391e20b7336331d5789078af53.r23.cf1.rackcdn.com/polkaudio.vanillaforums.com/editor/qf/9f94rfpehzbw.jpg)
I like the amber bulbs that give off a warm glow. It helps me to relax when I listen.
Howdy Bill, thanks for replying
I think I was always an audiophile, I loved lafayette and tech hifi catalogs when I was 12yo, and did a lot of recording sessions in college years, but I never listened like an audiophile until 2007 or so.
Yeah, 11x11 is a small space, but you are obviously making it work. It looks awesome in there. Do you have any issues with boomy bass or any one note bass? Concrete walls can be tough to tame. I'm glad to hear that you like the small space, that is encouraging me to try it.
I do remember the radio station thing. Still happening huh? The cage should help, but I think there should be an easier fix. pm
Quote from: pumpkinman on December 05, 2014, 03:45:03 PM
I like the amber bulbs that give off a warm glow. It helps me to relax when I listen.
If you like amber bulbs you should look into Himalayan Salt lamps. Not only do they provide a nice relaxing amber glow, they also throw off lots of ions which have been touted by different people to improve you health, your mood and even the sound of your system. (A few years ago ion generators were all the rage among tweakers for audio system improvements.) I have had them for years and cannot really support or deny any of the claims, I simply like the way they look and the way they light the room for late night listening sessions (which is something I can say I am an expert at. :lol: )
V V
Quote from: richidoo on December 05, 2014, 08:21:27 PM
Howdy Bill, thanks for replying
I think I was always an audiophile, I loved lafayette and tech hifi catalogs when I was 12yo, and did a lot of recording sessions in college years, but I never listened like an audiophile until 2007 or so.
Yeah, 11x11 is a small space, but you are obviously making it work. It looks awesome in there. Do you have any issues with boomy bass or any one note bass? Concrete walls can be tough to tame. I'm glad to hear that you like the small space, that is encouraging me to try it.
I do remember the radio station thing. Still happening huh? The cage should help, but I think there should be an easier fix. pm
I built a room in the basement and my walls are insulated with drywall so I'm not sure what you mean about concrete walls.
Quote from: richidoo on December 05, 2014, 08:21:27 PM
Howdy Bill, thanks for replying
I think I was always an audiophile, I loved lafayette and tech hifi catalogs when I was 12yo, and did a lot of recording sessions in college years, but I never listened like an audiophile until 2007 or so.
Yeah, 11x11 is a small space, but you are obviously making it work. It looks awesome in there. Do you have any issues with boomy bass or any one note bass? Concrete walls can be tough to tame. I'm glad to hear that you like the small space, that is encouraging me to try it.
I do remember the radio station thing. Still happening huh? The cage should help, but I think there should be an easier fix. pm
I am having a problem with bass. I have corner bass traps which help and I have Roxul between the joists. Not sure hat else I should do. Probably have to buy more bass traps $$$$$
Quote from: pumpkinman on December 05, 2014, 09:23:04 PMI built a room in the basement and my walls are insulated with drywall so I'm not sure what you mean about concrete walls.
I assumed some of your room walls were concrete cuz its in the basement.
Jim, ime broadband treatments can only get so far. If problems persist then you need targeted treatments. Either tuned absorbers or broadband absorbers placed in specific places on walls where the offending wavelength is at minimum SPL (and maximum velocity.) The general prescription of more bass traps randomly placed frustrates many people. Do you have measurement setup?
Quote from: richidoo on December 06, 2014, 07:38:08 AM
Quote from: pumpkinman on December 05, 2014, 09:23:04 PMI built a room in the basement and my walls are insulated with drywall so I'm not sure what you mean about concrete walls.
I assumed some of your room walls were concrete cuz its in the basement.
Jim, ime broadband treatments can only get so far. If problems persist then you need targeted treatments. Either tuned absorbers or broadband absorbers placed in specific places on walls where the offending wavelength is at minimum SPL (and maximum velocity.) The general prescription of more bass traps randomly placed frustrates many people. Do you have measurement setup?
I have the Omnimic V2 which I believe would enable me to make measurements.
Omnimic is a good one. Seems like everyone is using that now.
Do a scan on your room at the sweet spot to find out what freqs are peaking at that location. Do each speaker separately, two graphs. They might both cause the same nodes, but since they are in different positions the location of their nodes could be different. But if the room shape focuses a node at a spot then any source position will trigger it.
Once you know the freq, use wavelength converter to see if room dimensions are the cause. Then you know what walls to focus on.
http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm
Also, plug your major room dimensions into this
http://realtraps.com/modecalc.htm
to see if your measured bass modes conform to the predicted frequencies. That will further confirm which room dimension is the problem. Ceiling height is the most common, because despite room shape the whole room is usually the same height, larger area of same dimension. And typical ceiling heights fall in the sweetspot for creating problem modes. 8 feet = 140Hz. There are some nodes that reflect angularly through the room, not slapping across parallel walls, so modecalc doesns't predict everything. But usually those oblique reflections are not as strong.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-roommodes.htm
My room is an odd shape. I think I have a good layout done is visio and as a .jpg I can post.
Cool. Start a new thread in acoustics ward? :D Special for you!
Room dimensions big or small would benefit from a ratio. A good start is the cardas Golden ratio. Exact or close will yield better acoustics.
With regard to WAF and existing rooms we have variables to deal with. Family room or living room presents issues. Furniture, speaker placement treatment for such. The beat goes on.
Granted a larger room would require treatment however if the ratios are right less will be needed.
DSP has become our friend lately. Well a part time friend. For the entire audio spectrum I have yet to hear a DSP room correction device that did not sound Hi Fi. For bass though a blessing from heaven. The Berhinger or DBX units are key to tight defined explosive bass.
Speaker selection for said room is critical to getting the best from a particular room. We do not want to put dual subs and say a large speaker in a 10 x12 room. Exception would be a Klipsh with a folded horn for low bass development. A good pair of monitors and a single sub to say 28Hz would do quite well.
Small is good big is good all depends how it is handled. BTW my room is odd shaped approx 17x 20.
charles
Good advice there, thanks Charlie!
One needs to realize that the room is a component of the system and just like any other componet need to be put into the synergy calculus. Although the biggest difference is that unlike other component, the room basically cannot be swapped out. It has to be taken as a given and your system built around it. No matter how good a pair of speakers sounds at a show or a dealer, theyneed to work well in the space you are going to use them in. And the restrictions that need to be put on them placement wise if they are being put in a common area of the house. This is one of the biggest downfalls to our hobby in the era of the new economy. In the old days you could build a good relationship with a local brick and mortar dealer and had the opportunity to brings home to audition in your own room. To me that service alone was worth the extra cost of buying form a local dealer. While some online dealers offer 30 day or so trial periods, for physically large units the shipping back and forth becomes very unwieldy. But the bottom line is that you can get good sound out of both large and small room, just not necessarily with the same gear.
That makes sense, to think of room as integral part of the system. It absolutely is.
The last time I tried moving into the 11x12x9 room, I put a pair of usher Be-20s in there and tons of acoustic treatment to control the bass overload. http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1150.0 That failed not because the room was too small, but because the speakers were incompatible with the room. There's a piano in there now, but I could still try it real quick with lesser speakers. Actually I think I did try that once with little Infinitys 2ways, the success of which prompted me to move in the Ushers.
I do remember breathing a sigh of relief when I moved back into the big room, it just sounded better even disregarding the bass. But maybe that was only because I was accustomed to it. I had much less acoustic treatment in the big room then. I still like the sound of the big room. The little room will require a lot more midrange absorption than the big room to stop those early reflections. I don't have that problem in the big room.
I agree, acoustically a bigger room is almost always easier to work with.
A few years ago my Pastor asked me if I could bring g some equipment down to the church to provide music for an event they were holding there. I brought down a Sony Discman and a pair of Bose Roommates, which are a 1984 vintage portable powered speaker. Each one as a single Bose 901 driver in it, so they are not your typical $25 computer speaker, but they are small portables ( 10 x 6x6 x6 inches) none the less. Well I put them in the choir loft, threw in the CD of Catante Domino and went down into the pews to see what it sounded like. What I heard was simply shocking. These speakersare decent, but not great in a normal home sized room, but in the church I was shocked at how realistic the sounded. Now if I could just find a 50,000 cubic foot listening space in my house I'll be all set. :rofl:
Funny story about those Roommates. I was traveling on business in the early 90s and I took them with me packed in a gym bag along with the Discman and a bunch of CDs so I could have some music in my hotel room for the week. I was going through airport security when all of a sudden I was surrounded by TSA agents demanding that I empty the bag. Once I did they made me set up the speakers and play some music (they were impressed by the sound BTW). once they were satisfied that it was indeed a music system and I had packed it away I asked one of them what the big deal was. He brought me over to the XRay monitor and when I saw the picture I immediately knew why they all went on high alert. As an XRay it was a pretty low resolution pic but the voice coil of the speaker was the same size and shape as an alarm clock and the wires coming out of it connected to the circuit board right by some electrolytic capacitors (Long cylindrical in shape). I'll be damned it it didn't look like the silhouette of a home made bomb. And this all took place pre-9/11. Imagine what would have gone down if this happened now. Can you say full body cavity search? :shock:
Needless to say the roommates have not seen the inside of an airport since that day...........
My daughter's ballet studio uses a couple small 6" Bose cubes and a Bose sub in a corner. 2 cubes cover a 30 x 60 x 12 foot room. I always enjoy listening to the music they play when I go for "parent observation." Very dense full midbass, and great tone. I don't mention that to my wife though. [-X
Sonically - Big Room. Smaller room easier to manage and afford. There is just too much flexibility in a big room. You can do anything including mini monitors to floorstanders. Luckily i have a pretty large basement room for a 1100 square foot home. Been in some some 3000sq foot homes that don't have this space.
Quote from: richidoo on December 08, 2014, 02:13:46 PM
My daughter's ballet studio uses a couple small 6" Bose cubes and a Bose sub in a corner. 2 cubes cover a 30 x 60 x 12 foot room. I always enjoy listening to the music they play when I go for "parent observation." Very dense full midbass, and great tone. I don't mention that to my wife though. [-X
Rich you have hit the nail right on the head. That was always the Bose hallmark. They get a good handle on tonality and couple it with a decent dynamic punch for the size of the speakers and in doing so they have met if not exceeded the needs and desires of 98% of the electronic buying population. Forest the fact than for the most part the don't image worth a damn, nor can they project any sense of height depth or inner detail, the average consumer does not understand or care about any of that. They have figured out what is most important to John Q. Public even if it means making a "lesser quality" speaker overall than the could be. You as an audiophile can enjoy the Bose system in short bursts but over the longer term would tire of them and begin to miss the things they do not do well, but the average consumer will enjoy the pluses and since they are not concerned (or are just oblivious of) the things that a Bose speaker lacks, so they will be happy with them forever. In a way they are lucky guys. They get to just enjoys their systems since they know no Nervosa. :D
But like I have brought up a number of times before, you can say what you want about Bose, but the one thing they seem to be able to do better than most everybody else in the industry is sell.
Back to your rooms boys. All that Bose talk will stunt your growth. If you listen long enough you will go blind. Bade been bose boys.
Eh eh I as well have Bose for our TV. Hey Tom I can see the Steeple being installed in the living room.
charles