AudioNervosa

Quote from: jrebman on August 11, 2007, 06:03:17 AM
In *theory* I like low power, single driver systems and have had several iterations of same myself, but they always left me just a little disappointed/unfulfilled especially in the lowest registers.  Sure, they do some things exceptionally well, but so far the compromise hasn't proven to be very long lived around here.

Jim,
I understand the limitations of single drivers on low end, but ow do they fare in the treble? Can they play clear high like a dedicated tweeter, or even as good as a ribbon tweeter? Most claim 20kHz on axis, but is this practical and how does it sound?

I have only heard Fostex (not sure which driver) in TL cabinet, so haven't been able to sample all of the treble, but what I heard was pretty good. Not ribbon-tweeter-like though... ;)

Dick Olsher says these are the reigning king:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0107/diy_loudspeaker_project.htm
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/feastrex/feastrex.html
At $8k/pr it would be fun to hear them, at least.

This avenue appeals to me. Not yet dipped in a toe, but fun to learn about it.
Rich

richadoo,
                  If you have a chance listen to the Cain & Cain Wall of sound speaker. It may just change your mind as to what single drivers can do. Sub quality bass, wall to wall soundstage with a midrange that will take you away. The top is naturally smooth with all the micro and macro dynamics we lust after. They also open the door to those flea powered Amps that will change your listening experience. Goosebump city, is not a dream it is reality with the Cain & Cain. The tone, texture, and real life dynamics of this combo will make you a believer.

  rollo

This is a topic that could be expounded on for pages, easily, with many angles.  Here's my condensed view:

Audiophiles are all different, as we know.  Each has a personal set of values, depending on auditory anatomy and music/volume taste.  There are practical considerations - some have very large rooms, others small rooms in apartments with persnickety neighbors.  All these things shape what systems/speakers we treasure/own.

Each speaker type has inherent strengths and weaknesses and people adapt to what they hear.  Conventional, multi-way speakers can be shaped to present a very wide frequency range with mostly flat response.  However, getting the drivers to sing with one voice is challenging.  Also, crossovers and inefficient drivers rob microdynamic swing and dynamics.  Followers of this camp accept these weaknesses to pursue those things this type does well, whether they know it or not.

True single driver speakers can be wired directly from the amplifier to driver with no interseding connectors or circuitry of any kind.  However loaded, these speakers naturally exhibit superior coherence and "breath of life" through the midband.  Of course, they naturally do not exhibit frequency extension anywhere near more conventional speakers.  Treble reach is a function of the driver itself, and varies considerably.  It is probably fair to say the shimmer and sparkle of ribbons especially has not been captured in a single driver, though Scott Faller says his Lowthers reach very cleanly to 14 khz or so.  I haven't heard Lowthers but that's believable.  Bass extension is shared between the driver and cabinet loading.  Of course, transmission lines, bass reflex, open baffle, and sealed boxes will sound different but it's safe to assume these speakers won't pound and slam like dedicated woofers.  Followers of this camp accept these weaknesses to pursue those things this type does well.

A third camp tries to join the other two.  Rhethm and Horning use Lowther drivers through their "happy band" and supplement at the extremes.  Zu does the same thing, but with modified Eminance drivers.

I spent many years in the conventional camp, detouring to single drivers, and finally ended up with hybrids.  To me, cohesion and microdynamics through the meat of music is necessary.  I don't have the best imaging in my room and I don't have ninth-level shimmer in the treble.  Measured frequency response isn't as flat as I'd like in a couple of areas.  But, I'm very happy with the sound because I know what's important to me and those qualities are there in spades.  With the semi-parametric EQ in Inguz I can get response pretty darn flat too.   8)

I don't think the single-driver/hybrid sound is one that "catches" immediately.  Rather, it takes a varying period to "get".  If it grabs you and you adapt, going back the other direction becomes difficult or impossible.

Nice topic, Rich!

Scott actually ended up with a pseudo OB setup for the Lowthers.  He uses an active xover to some subs for the bottom.  It's not what one is used to hearing - but - it does make you tap your toes and just sit back and listen to the music.

Bryan

Nah.  I have a pair of FTA-2000s, which are Fostex F200A based MLTL speakers.  For their price, they are utterly amazing in both the low end and also the HF.  I have seen someone have it wired with a bullet tweeter, but I do believe that had to do with compensation of HF hearing loss that comes with the age of the owner than the lack of spark.  Of course, some people like that "spark" in their music.

Nevertheless, I do believe that the biggest mission of a Single driver/fullrange/widebander or what other combo names that driver without much circuitry but single pieces of wire, or in my case a zobel network, is to deliver a ravishing midrange, which accord to those who live with abnormalities, is all that matter. 

BTW, these FTAs really have slam, in contrast to horns and other types of enclosures or non enclosures. 

I actually had a person come home and listen to them, when I used to live in a small one bedroom apartment.  In a email exchange the day after, he declared that the FTA lost in the transparency department to a pair of 12K, Tannoy Coaxial based speakers at a dealer in NYC.  It was a very interesting discovery, for a pair of speakers that cost just 1500 new. 

Rich,

Yikes, yet another thread that hasn't sent me any notifications -- sorry, never saw your reply.

To answer the question about high frequencies, yes, I do think the better single driver speakers can reach pretty high frequencies -- some of the Fostex drivers claim 3 dB down points of 23 KHz, but I don't think that's the whole picture.  At those frequencies, especially the larger the cone, you are necessarily getting a lot of break-up modes, which, if your hearing is sensitive enough, can certainly grate on you.  Even if they don't do that so much, the break-up modes do contribute to some loss of transparency.  At least this is my perception from my experiences -- the high end was never lacking in real extension, but did tend to get grainy and harsh, and just nowhere near as transparent or "effortless" as say the round ribbon tweets on the Adagios.  I am pretty sensitive to tweeter nasties, but the Adagio tweeter is among the best I've heard so far, only losing to the diamond tweeter in the Kharmas and the Acapella ion tweeters, and we're talking about a huge price differential there.

I think Mike pretty much nails it with his comments, and I don't know that I have anything more useful to add to his statements, except that hybrids seem to be a relatively cost-effective compromise.

No speaker is everything to everybody, and I suppose for me, the real thing is to have a fairly even and smoothe response from top to bottom, with decent, but not ultimate extension at both ends, and as transparent as I can possibly afford.  So far the SD systems I've owned and listened to didn't have nearly as much transparency as most would have had me believe I would experience.  For me, the real acid test is the clarity of voices, and while they have been good, to very good, I was utterly amazed the other night when I played an Eva Cassidy CD on my system with my still very green tube amp, and for the first time ever, could effortlessly understand every single word she sang, without even trying to listen for it.  No SD speaker I've had, no matter what amplification/source could ever do that.

I have obviously not heard the megabuck SD speakers that Dick Olsher talked about, but at that price tag they are in the same league as the Reps, and some of the more exotic Phy and field-coil offerings from Western Europe -- and sure, I'd love to be able to hear all of them, but that's not going to happen, which is to say that my comments are based on the very limited selection of drivers I have heard in my house, which include a couple of Fostex (priced at $85 and $60 respectively) and the Visaton B-200 ($135), and those which I've heard at shows -- some Lowthers, and the AER Mk II. and Louis's hemp drivers (which sound pretty damned good to me, but still not everything I want/need in a speaker.)

Everything in audio is a compromise, right?  Well, the SD driver is no different, and as good as the engineering has advanced, you're still dealing with some laws of physics that are pretty hard to defy.

For my taste, right now I'm giving a lot of thought to a crossoverless 2-way with active filtering before the amplifiers with possibly a chip amp on the bottom end and a small tube amp for the high end -- not at all unlike what Mike has going with the Def Pros, but on a much smaller, more modest scale, and a more conventional mid/bass - tweeter driver complement.

Bottom line is that I think SD speakers can do a lot of things right, but they just don't mesh well with my particular tastes/needs, or another way to say it is that they, so far, haven't been the right set of compromises for me.

All done now :D

-- Jim

Sorry I 've been quiet on this topic, but gobbling it up and thinking about all the great points of view. There's lots to digest here. I got quote back from feastrex distributor for D5nf, 2400/pair drivers alone. permanent magnet drivers, not field coils which go up into 12k range. He will have the field coil models at RMAF, I asked him about the D5nf as used in Olsher OB review, he was unsure if they will bring that one.

So it will be interesting to see what it sounds like. That's a mighty big tweeter flailing around at 20k! Hard to imagine it sounding smooth and powerful, but maybe that's why it's so expensive, since you ALWAYS get what you pay for in this hobby right?   :?
Rich

Has anybody played with the FAL drivers that Bent offers?  They look like a very nice solution.

Bryan

Wow, those look cool Bry.

http://www.fal.gr.jp/english/
http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html

I heard an early version of them a few years ago.  They were very nice but still had some bugs.  Looks like they've been worked out.  I'd love to see what a FAL and one of their AMT's would do.  Maybe just a simple block on the tweeter bottom end and run the FAL full range. 

Bryan

Anybody heard these?

www.brentworth.com

WEEZ

I read that website with great interest Don. Thanks. I submitted the online form for more info and to try to listen to them. If they call me I'll try to find out more.
Rich

Quote from: WEEZ on August 23, 2007, 02:13:10 PM
Anybody heard these?

www.brentworth.com

WEEZ

Weez,
            Great find. The type 3 goes down to 20Hz wow!. This could be the one. If it dosn't beam at you it could be nirvana. Thes are worth a listen. This is the first speaker to catch my interest since I bought the Pipedreams. Very exciting. This calls for a full investigation. Lets check these babies out. Richadoo is on the case so I feel confident that we will become well informed quite soon. Good job man


rollo

I stayed up too late (again) looking into Don's mystery speakers, but it was fun. I finally caught up on some sleep this morning.

Someone needs to buy these demo models (http://cgi.ebay.com/Brentworth-Model-One-speakers-mint-cond-for-tube-amp_W0QQitemZ150147866790QQihZ005QQcategoryZ14993QQcmdZViewItem) being unloaded from dealer in OH. He says no tube lovers in Columbus. Uh-huh... He's not looking very hard, there's tubers EVERYWHERE!!! But they hide well until a single driver 100dB full range speaker lures them out. haha

Here is the dealers website, maybe a little more info there:
http://www.genesisaudio.com/html/frameset_specials.htm

Brentworth makes single, double and quad driver models, with increasing low freq response and linearity I assume. Sensitivity rises slightly and impedence drops slightly with larger models. They are made out of non resonant kitchen counter corian type material, so color choices can be wilder than Wilson. Prices are what they are, but most would probably consider them a little high compared to standard boxes, but maybe proportional to the sonic improvements? One can hope. Type 3 lists around 7500, type 1 is about 5500, I think. This used one on EBay for 1500 with warrantee might be worth looking into, but ONLY if you will send it out on demo tour!! haha

I am close enough to go get it, but they say they will deliver it up to 400 miles in their van for $100. That's almost to my house, I think??? That's a bargain deal for making that trip through WV mountains! 7 day money back guarantee if it arrives back to them undamaged.

Some stuff on google to check out too, but info is scarce. No formals reviews that I could find. Just a few mentions.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=brentworth+SOund+labs+&btnG=Search

Just read Rich's post which answered the two major questions I had -- price, and what the hell are they made of that a cabinet of those dimensions weighs that much.

I don't think I'm within the 400 mile limit :-).  I have to say they at least *look* interesting on paper, but yu just can never tell how they're going to sound until you give them a listen.

But... between this, the FAL, the other Japanese drivers, at least it's good to know there more players than fostex, Lowther, and AER.  Ok, I know there are a lot more than that, but these are all interesting finds.
If I still had my Abbys, I'd probably try the Hemp Acoustics FR6.5 -- basically the same parameters as the Fostex it replaces, except with a higher Qts -- a good thing for the TQWT loading of the Abbys.  I've talked to Jason at Lovecraft design about this and I do believe he will be trying this when he can get his hands on a pair of the drivers.

-- Jim

I've been bugging Scott Faller about trying a pair of the Hemps in a couple of his Lowther cabs.  He's been trying to get a pair for a potential review but not having much luck so far.

Oh, BTW, I did get in touch with Bent.  He answered and cc'd a guy who is supposed to be carrying the FAL in the U.S.  Haven't heard anything from him yet but he is supposed to be contacting me with info.



Bryan

The reason I asked if anyone had heard the Brentworth speakers, is that years ago there was quite a controversy about them after a negative review in Listener magazine by (I think) the infamous Art Dudley.

He apparently reviewed the lll's in a 10 X12 X 8 room. :shock: Now, who in the hell would put a speaker that (supposedly) can reach 20hz in a small room like that and expect good sound? Sheesh.

I've never heard them, so they may not sound very good. But they DO come highly recommended from some camps. Mostly the folks who like highly transparent, less 'euphonic' sound, it seems.

WEEZ

btw; I've only heard a handful of single driver speakers. IMO, they are probably the most difficult to get 'right'. But when they're 'right'; they're pretty special. When they're not 'right', they are generally dreadful.

"Listening before paying" is rule #1 in this hobby. Interesting your comments about the less euphonic taste preference among Brethworth fans. 

Reading their wbesite last night made me wonder "what's group delay?" Good explanation of phase problems, but they never explain group delay, unless it is the same thing? I have heard the term before.
Thanks
Rich

Rich, I think they are two terms that mean the same thing.

WEEZ

Quote from: WEEZ on August 24, 2007, 08:45:27 AM

btw; I've only heard a handful of single driver speakers. IMO, they are probably the most difficult to gget 'right'. But when they're 'right'; they're pretty special. When they're not 'right', they are generally dreadful.

<sound of hammer hitting nail on head>

That's about the most concise statement about SD speakers I've ever read.

-- Jim

Found this (http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/12/123058.html) post on Asylum tonight about Japanese speaker exotica, including FAL, Feastrex, Eltus, Maxonic and others.  It is informative and some parts are funny.

If you're REALLY into it, the author of above has many posts about high efficiency japanese speakers. This (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=feastrex&b=OR&topic=&topics_only=N&author=Christopher+Witmer&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=hug) is search results for his name and feastrex. This may take a while to read....    :rofl:

There is a Feastrex dealer in Charlotte, NC! He should be getting a pair of D5nf soon (drivers? speakers?) Importer is also bringing field coil model to RMAF. This is getting interesting! They need 25W "music power" Just about right for Altmann BYOB, I think...    8)

Still no word from the folks at Brentworth. The Brentworth Type One is still on EBay :(  Poor little speaker, nobody wants it...
Rich

Now I'm even more interested in finding out more about the FAL drivers.  No word on these yet?  Even a ballpark price?

Mr. Asayama sounds like Mr. Asa-hola :D.

Next time I'm in Japan, I'll be sure to miss Sound Mates.  BTW, never been, and never plan to go at this point.

-- Jim

IIRC, the initial price for drivers was $3k - raw drivers.  The Canadian distributor was selling for considerably less.  I'm still waiting for contact info from the supposed new US dealer.

The price for the finished products - I think it's one of those if you have to ask, you can't afford them things.  I don't know about the single driver ones, but the others - $25k and $35k seem to come to mind.  I could be way off so take this with a grain of salt as something coming out of the cobwebs in the back of my head....

I'm primarily interested in raw drivers to play with.  Would love to do a 7" SS Rev woofer in a TL with the FAL driver up top.

Group buy????

Bryan

Ok, guess that pretty much puts me out of the running.  Maybe I'll drop Bob Brines a note to see if the Hemp Acoustics 6.5 driver would work in the FT-1600 Mk. II cabinets.

Still closely watching what Roger Modjeski is doing with those little SD speakers (maybe with Omega's new sub?)  Just considering options for my little office system, which is still a way off yet, and I hope to be able to do the whole thing for $2.5k or less (already have the SB and Denon 2910 for sources.)

-- Jim

Don't quote me on the prices - as I said, that's purely fuzzy out of memory stuff.  I can't verify at this time until the new distributor calls.

Bryan

FAL drivers cost 200,000 yen (http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=hug&n=123087&highlight=feastrex+Christopher+Witmer&r=&session=), or $1725 each. Compare to Feastrex D5nf  US price is currently $1200 each. The FAL price is secondhand rumor from a retailer in Japan, from back before May. But at least a ballpark figure in Japan, before shipping here.

BTW, for you all that use high sensitivity speakers, you might want to have a look at these 8w integrated amps:

www.wrightaudio.us

WEEZ

Have you heard 'em?

Nope. Just thought they looked very well made, and priced reasonable.

WEEZ

I got my 'literature' from the US distributor of FAL.

He's not going to carry just raw drivers - only the finished products.  The only one he gave me a price for was the big pair and they're just shy of $17k / pair

Bryan

Heard back today from Ken McCarthy of Brentworth Sound Lab. He writes:

"Dear Rich:
Thank you for your interest in our products. However, I must apologize as you have contacted us at a most inconvenient time for us, but a most opportune time for yourself.  Let me explain.

At BSL we are in the midst of introducing our new line of loudspeakers which feature custom-made drivers in a new enclosure, a rack-mounted contour system, and above all, even better performance.  I can't let everything out, but I will say that we have achieved
Single driver bass down to 16 Hz at 102 db!

I hope this intrigues you enough to stay tuned to our web site for the introduction, after which we would be glad to send literature.
Musically Yours,
Kenneth McCarthy/BSL
Ken McCarthy
Brentworth Sound Lab"

So, does that mean the overall efficiency of the speakers is 102 dB or that it can pump out 16 Hz at 102 dB.  Whatever the case, I'm not even going to be asking the price tag :D.

I took a look at those Wright amps and they look interesting (I have to say that I'm really interested in SE triode KT-88s and how they will sound) but can't, for the life of me, figure out what they look like.  I don't get that "bronze mirror" thing at all.  The Lolita looks interesting -- wish that one came in kit form.

P.S. -- for those of you who may not have been to the seriousstereo web site in a while, it looks as if they may be coming out with a 12" version of their speaker that's less expensive, and may actually fit in a small living room like mine.  Sure hope that one will be at the show.

-- Jim

Yeah, that serious website is great. Thanks for the tip. Looking fwd to hearing them this year.

The current Brentworth speakers are in the 100dB efficiency range, so I assume it is 102 overall, but could be just that freq. Given the delay in hearing back from him on first request, I don't expect to find out much about the new speakers for a while. I don;t even know where they're located, or the phone number to call. A dealer at Cadence magazine invites discussion about it. Google brentworth to find him.

The Wrights look like typical tube amps with input and drivers (rectifier maybe?) centered up front, and power tubes behind them, more off the the far sides, and a row of trannys along the rear, ala RM9 ish layout. Knobs on front vertical face. Chassis are tall, about 4 inches deep so room for knobs. All three look like that, with trafo covers reflecting the tubes like a mirror. The Lolita looks to be a little smaller than the other two. I looked for ther bronze mirror reference but couldn't find it.

Rich,
           If these babies don't beam at ya, could be the ticket. We shall see.

rollo

Yup, they have great sales lit! But since they're relatively unknown a long listen would be in order ;) Their previous models pictured on the website show only a hole where the sound comes out, no driver cone is visible, but he says there are either 1, 2, or 4 full range drivers in there somewhere.... Without the drivers firing directly at you, it probably won't beam, so the question is how much power can it put into the highs coming out in all directions when using full rangers which are notoriously low energy in the highs and usually require dead on alignment to hear them. Like you said, we shall see! I would love to hear them someday.

(http://www.feastrex.com/IMG_06921.jpg)
Going to hear, maybe buy a pair of Feastrex D5nf drivers on Friday. My local dealer got his demo pair of them today, says "Wow, these are very special!" They weigh 10 pounds each!
Rich

Rich,

Very nice.  I just heard that Joe Cohen has a pair and loves them.

As for me, they are a bit out of my league at the moment, but I just got a pair of modified TQWTs for the FE-127 driver from Tekton -- a semi custom job with no binding posts and only a small hole for the custom, yet to be built speaker cable to exit from.  Kind of like a pair of baby Abbys with no large oval baffle.

I've also placed an order for a Vaughn Carina amp, but probably won't have that until the new year.

I wonder how long the Feastrex drivers take to break-in?  I'm sure you'll find out :D.

Congrats,

Jim

If the ones Joe Cohen has are the ones he's taking to RMAF I should say so, they are Feastrex's top o the line, D9e field coil drivers, in Feastrex cabinets about $25k, if I remember right.

The Tektons are sealed? Sonds very cool speaker from what I could learn about them in 5 minutes. Does he have a site with more info?

The Carina I have seen. That should be fun. Office system? Can't wait to hear about that! Congrats back atcha!

The feastrex surrounds are leather, not rubber, and the cones are paper, so I have no idea on break in. One post online suggested the glue used in assembly has to harden over time which changes the sound slightly.

Rich,

Ah, didn't know he had the field coil version -- I suppose I would be very pleased with them as well. :D

The Tektons are not sealed -- at least these are not -- they are a vented, tall, skinny, tapered box very much like a scaled down pair of Abbys.  I think most of the smaller Tekton bookshelf speakers are BR and not sealed.  There is a web site:

http://www.tektondesign.com

But it appears to be mostly graphics, so I didn't get too much from it.  Search for his eBay store too.

Yup, this is the office system and will give me a place to experiment with drivers, and some various small tube amps, and also give me a quiet place to listen when the neighbor is home or Linda is in her writing studio.  It will mostly be the Bolder modded SB2 and eventually possibly a Minimax CDP.

BTW, I just ordered my Minimax phono stage, and that should arrive any day now -- getting closer to vinyl all the time.  Now we just have to get past this flu thing so we can get on with doing the renovations, and moving the system.  The Reality SCs are coming in nicely now and are a great match with the graphite Grovers. Modding the 3910 has been put off for a while -- decided the phono stage would be money better spent at this point, plus my Bolder Statement SB3 and Ultimate IV PSU are at Wayne's right now, and I should be picking them up at RMAF.  It's all coming together -- slowly, but surely. :-).

-- Jim

I'll say! Nice work. You have an exciting couple of months ahead.

I got the pair of the Feastrex D5nf's. Big price jump (66%) coming on Nov 1st when the promo ends.

I heard them in some rear horn type speakers which will OK, but when I listened a couple feet away from them I could hear the real magic. If you like NOS dac, these are along the same line. Easy, pure, real, gentle but exciting in their own way.

I first listened for treble extension, doubting that a 5 inch driver could play enough treble well enough to allow eliminating a dedicated tweeter. No problem. Listening to Kind of Blue, Jimmy Cobb's ride cymbal on "So What?" never sounded more real. Is it as extended as ribbon tweeter? Probably not, but the juice in the middle is so much better without 2 crossovers (mid to dome and dome to ribbon) in the way. They do beam highs, but not as much I as expected. The drivers were facing straight ahead while I sat in triangle 10 feet away, so I was 30 degrees off center beam, and the cymbals sounded extremely satisfying. 'Ive never heard a cymbal that real come out of a speaker, not even studio monitors. This was using Scott Nixon chip amps, his newest NOS DAC, and HCAT preamp and lots of vibe tweaks, acrolink wire, I think.

Bass extension was not very good, OK down to 100 maybe. I could not judge dynamics at that freq but could easily hear the notes. Below that was lame, to be expected. Dealer had a single JL f112 sub placed in the middle which added a lot of music, but it did not integrate well.

The most striking thing was of course the midrange. Microdynamic detail was hard to believe. I could hear timidity and reservation in the first notes of Miles' proudest solo on So what. Misplaced lip, first tune of the session, whatever it was, I never heard it before. What is the value of hearing Miles' nerves while he starts the most important solo of his career? To me it is important. Solo violin was equally impressive and expressive. John Lennon solo guitar, Respighi large chamber group, it was all incredible. The detail is amazing but the tone depth and realness factor is startling. The sound is organic, solid, touchable. That is the most impressive thing, the tonal rightness. Much different than what I'm used to. Paper cone, leather surround, efficient motor, whatever it is, it works! The online hype is true.

Now I gotta build something to hold them up where I can here it. Probably start with a simple OB like the Visaton, then just tweak it from there.  I would like to avoid a passive crossover, so I'm looking at some active systems/biamp with the 15" Hawthorne Augies. Lots of ideers to try.
Rich

Rich,

Any updates?  I've got an appointment to talk with Joe Cohen later this afternoon, and I'm going to plead with Linda to let me get a pair of these before the price hike.  I may also have a buyer for my JBL L-300s, so that will go a long way to a pair of the D5nf's.

Just curious, what amp are you using?

-- Jim

Glad to hear you're so interested Jim! You're still on honeymoon, you can get away with anything! hehe

I am convinced their popularity will increase rapidly after RMAF and after a year's more rumor mill. The D9e finished speakers will be at the show, as you know, and I'm betting it will get some good press.

I found a used Altmann amp, waiting for pictures and details from seller, but it's a good price. I also still have the Cary SLI-80, which should work good too.

I have not played them since I got them home, I'm ashamed to say they've been sitting idle here for a week while I fart around with real life.

I am working on another anechoic chamber specifically for the feastrex that is more purposed designed than the previous slap together experiments. I think it will be pretty cool. Reading Loudspeaker Cookbook about crossovers, time alignment, port tuning and all that speaker voodoo. Cool stuff, but mostly I just look at the pictures  :-k There is so much to learn about speakers. Yikes, no wonder the good ones cost so much.

I am also gathering bits to make a pair of OB speakers same as Dick Olsher's OB2 project, but with active crossover and biamp instead of his 2nd order passive X. Using the Hawthorne augies and Elliott project P09. Olsher was a little surprised that I actually bought the drivers and now is very interested how the active xover works out - me too! He has been very helpful, a very nice guy.

The Feastrex have 7mm displacement (pp) so it is recommended not to play loud bass in OB mount. I guess I have been worried about that enough to hold off sticking them in a piece of plywood until I get a system assembled, but that is stupid. I will try to get some baffles rigged to be able to play them tomorrow. I don't wanna waste time building a box cabinet yet. My wife is dying to hear them too, find out what all the blathering is about.

Rich,

While talking to Joe this afternoon, he said that he thought the D5nfs would be very nice in a TL.  Another alternative he mentioned was a sealed box with a passive radiator -- specifically, the D9 passive radiator, but at $1900 a pair for passive radiators, I will have to pass on that idea.  He didn't think the horn loading would be a good idea, or at least he said you won't get much bass out of them.

Looks like the JBL buyer is serious -- says he'll make me a good offer once he sees some pictures.

The only bummer about the Feastrex is that the Carina amp will probably not do very well with a 16 ohm load.  I wrote to Eddie about this and suggested that with his design and operating points, that it may be necessary to go to a pair of paralleled EL84s and different output transformers in order to work, but we'll see what he says about that.  I just can't see taking an amp and a driver like those and putting an autoformer between them for impedance matching.

Joe will be using the Lamm ML2.1 18 watt single-ended 6C33C amps and the Lamm reference preamp, and all Prana wire (natch), so it should sound pretty amazing.

It's going to be very interesting hearing that vs the Serious Stereo stuff.

I already broached the topic of the Feastrex drivers, and when Linda asked where they would go, I said my hope is that they would be good enough to replace the Adagios in the main system (with some bass augmentation, of course.)  But there's a long and winding road between here and there :-).

Later,

Jim

These popped up the other day on 6Moons (referenced by Paul Candy as his SD of choice) and certainly look NICE.  http://www.rlacoustique.com/aer.htm

I have JUST replaced my Omega Hemptone 8's (precursor to the compact hemp) with a pair of used MaxHemps, and I am VERY pleased with what I am hearing thus far.   :drool:   You can read my musings on AC, if you're curious about these speakers.
My newly acquired Red Wine Signature 30 is on its way to me now, fresh from Vinnie's shop with the 30.2 mods.
I look forward to hearing the combo!

Very nice - the doped paper cones and battery Tripath thing is super - I'm doing the same myself.

I agree, paper has something that no other transducer can match. Call it distortion if you want, I don't care what it is I like it.  :D Hoping to hear Red Wine amp soon.

Michael,

Yes, those Lamhorns are very, very nice, and of course, way out of my budget :D.

I predict you will love the 30.2 -- it's really a completely different animal from the previous RWA Signature amps, and in very good ways.

Are you in CO yet?

-- Jim

Quote from: richidoo on April 17, 2008, 03:13:19 PMI agree, paper has something that no other transducer can match. Call it distortion if you want, I don't care what it is I like it.  :D

Funny - "distortion" is probably just what the engineering-only folks would call it.  Their loss, it sounds like music to me.

I like Charles Altmann's take on it. C37, Mother of Tone and all...
(http://www.ennemoser.com/charleskd.jpg)
Charles Altmann

Hi Jim, WOW, what a memory!!!!
Nope, we're not in CO quite yet, although we are closer.  We moved to Sandy, Utah (Salt Lake Valley), and are about 4.5 hours away - close enough to go camping, etc on odd weekends.  My son and I were hiking the land last weekend and came across two newborn bear cubs, about 15 feet off the trail in some heavy sage & rabbitbrush!  No momma in sight, but I'm certain she was close.

Those Maxhemps are SUPER nice.  I sat and listened for a while last night, tweaking the positioning, etc.  I talked to Louis (ordered some cables) and he gave me some pointers, and also mentioned that the Siggie will have alot more bass than my Clari-T knockoff, so what works for me now may not work with the Sig.  I anticipate the Sig to be delivered today or tomorrow.  Woohooo!

Once the cables arrive (Hudson 'R' interconnects and speaker cable), I'll be set for quite a while, and will venture into some DIY speaker projects for fun - horns and OB mainly.

That's a real music lover's setup, one to forget about the gear and upgrades and all that.  Settle in and spin!  It's OK to take a break to report back on findings though.   :D

The system is DEFINITELY a music lover's delight, and it is still coming together.
My wife said that a box from Red Wine Audio arrived today, which is my newly purchased 30 with the 30.2 mods. :D/  I had the previous owner send it to Vinnie directly, so I've never "met" it yet.
Needless to say I'm counting the minutes before I leave work!!!!!!!!
Then it'll be time to grab a good handcrafted ale, and slip the 30.2 into the system  :drool:

Right in time for the weekend!

Warmly,
Michael

Awesome.  You're gonna love it.

Michael, enjoy your new toy. I can't wait to hear about it....

HOLY CRAP, that sig 30.2 is amazing!
The maxhemps are 96 dB sensitivity, but the extra headroom that the siggie provides with its 30w versus the 6w of my Clari-T knockoff makes a HUGE difference with dynamics.  The sound quality is markedly better than the little DIY amp too.  Much warmer and more engaging, with incredible depth and richness.

I sat in amazement for 4 hours last night, spinning CD's on the Rega and lossless files on the iMod.

I be one happy camper.

So, with that prelude, I can say I am mightily impressed with the bass response (in addition to that intoxicating midrange) that these single-drivers are producing.  Mightily impressed.

Mightily.

These might even sound better than Bose   :rofl:

Some of my reference tracks for bass response, overall smoothness and soundstaging/imaging:
- Mickey Hart, Planet Drum tracks 7 and 8 (track 7 is excellent for checking for boominess and rolloff - the max's were awesome on this track - NO discernable rolloff on the deep bass (low 30's))
- Loreena McKennitt - Ancient Muse, track 2 (gates of Istanbul)
- Antonio Forcione - Acoustic revenge (Naim CD) - "Heartbeat" - very well recorded acoustic guitar
- Dead Can Dance - "Indus" (Spiritchaser album)
- Beck - "No Complaints"
- Four Tet "You could ruin my day" and "she moves she"
- Bonnie 'Prince' Billy - Master and Everyone, Track 8
- K'Naan - Dusty Foot Philosopher, Track 13

Anyway, these speakers are proof (to me) that single driver speakers CAN be full-range, and relatively affordable.

Warm regards,
Michael

Congrats Michael, you did good....  Enjoy!

Ahhh, yes.  I have been enjoying the new setup.
WAF is there, too.  Kathy LOVES the Max's and the amp and has remarked on the quality of the sound.
She was hypersensitive to the 'shoutiness' of the hemptones with the little amp.  I could hear it too, but those speakers sounded soooooo nice, the shoutiness never became an issue for me.
However, the Max's are much smoother, especially with the siggie.

The hemptones are currently boxed up, but I've considered bringing 'em out to see how the gel with the sig 30.2.

Anyway, I'm still dialing in the positioning on the Max's

Any help would be greatly appreciated! I've posted my listening room layout over at AC on the Omega discussion under "New (used) Maxhemps".

I just had dinner tonight with my ex-boss/fellow audio nut (who just offered me a job in Coer D'Alene), and I'm going to be heading over to his place for some listening before he moves to Idaho.
He has replaced his vinyl-driven, super high dollar two-channel setup with a high-tech multi-channel rig with Wilson/Mark Levinson gear on all corners.  Should be interesting.   :D

Okay, time to go sit and listen.

Warrmly,
Michael

I read your AC posts. Sounds fun Michael. The 16 foot peak is an acute angle to the vertical wall right? That is a nasty spot for double reflections, and is a big horn aimed right at your head, so the mud gets amplified toward you. Consider a row of 8th nerve rectangles to quiet that giant horn at the source. Or cheaper is a strip of 12" wide x 1-2" absorbtion covered in fabric placed on either the ceiling or wall surface adjacent to the joint. You would really hear the difference. Corner distortion is wicked, and acute angles are even worse. The frequencies that are most annoying for corner distortion are midrange up to lower treble, and their frequencies are short enough that you can stop their being ruined from the double wall bounce with a strip of absorbtion just wide enough to catch their wavelength. The corner creates phase distortion in that mid frequency range. Only one surface needs to be treated to stop the bounce. You will have to think up funny tales to tell your visitors. "Ventilation system" or "convertible roof latch."

SOunds like you are getting some bass reinforcement from the front wall. That's a good thing. But for kicks try pulling the speakers out away from the wall, maybe 4-6 feet and move in closer to them, maybe only 6-8 feet away, with a pretty wide spread, at least 90 degrees. WIth a single way speaker you can get in that close, and with such a good amp imaging won;t fall apart when you spread em wide. You will lose some bass, but I think the improvement of tone and soundstaging and the reduction of front wall reflection in your mental "mix" might be enjoyable if not even better overall than the bassier position close to the walls. You never know, but with light speakers it is fun to try. Kathy's decorating taste may not agree though!!

As I posted in Ken's thread, I like to start the toe setting with the drivers pointing straight at me, then roll them out slowly until good compromise between soundstage width and image density. It all changes with seat position and wall distance though... Some speakers even like to cross beams in front of the seat.
Have fun!!
Rich

Great stuff, thanks!
The ceiling/wall angle is acute.  In fact, it's adorable.   :-P

I'll experiment with some methods to treat that area.  The vertical wall above the listening position is mostly covered with a long killim (flatweave) carpet, but it is unlikely that it is making much difference with the horn effect.

It is interesting you mention the speaker positioning - I was messing around last night and moved the speakers further from the back wall - about 26"-28" to the rear of the pedestals (36" to the front of the speakers) and liked the change in the sound.  I'll pull them even further today and do some listening.

My former boss has software package where you can model your room (surfaces, shapes, etc) and it will optimize the speaker positioning and recommend treatments.  Sounds pretty cool if only to mess around.

Thanks again for the great info.
Warmly,
Michael

Here's a link to some pics of the current system    :)

http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=2143

Okay, time to close the blinds and listen...........

Looks cool!! I think that software you are talking about is from RPG, about $100. There is another from Germany I think, more powerful, but I never tried either. I think the RPG version is just a rectangular room with fixed height. Please report if you get to try it out!!

I'll check into the software.
Looks like I'll be moving to Northern Idaho soon - the job is too good for me to pass up.  So, the room configuration will change.

Any AN'ers or AC'ers in the Spokane / Coeur D'Alene area?

I look forward to the move........

PS - My boss might be selling his Wilson system (Watt/Puppy 6, multichannel with subs) for half of what he bought it on A'gon.  I'll keep ya posted if he does.

Warmly,
Michael

Congrats Canyon!!! That is cool. Good luck with the move.

We have our own personal acoustic analyzer program right here, in the flesh, called 'bpape'... Type in your question and you get a personalized response!

LOL!
I've seen BPAPE's many posts, and would love his input.

When you get settled in your new place, post a sketch and some pics of the room and we'll work on it.  Gotta get the priorities straight.  Audio system gets set up first during a move!

Bryan

Word!  I always do that.  My wife thinks I'm nuts but I gotta have tunes while I'm working.

If you ever get out west to Seattle, there are some nutty fun guys out here with some pretty nice setups.  You'd be welcome to join just about any time.

Quote from: bpape on April 25, 2008, 06:55:20 AM
Audio system gets set up first during a move!

Right! I scheduled the Legacys to be delivered day after we moved in. I used a kitchen chair in the sweet spot for a long while.

Michael, at least when you go to look for a new pad, you can have an eye on acoustics. Check out Realtraps modecalc to help you evaluate bass modes in any room you're considering for audio. Adding treatment improves bass even more, but you can avoid the nutso weird shapes that are hard to fix.

Fortunately, my wife is a music lover as well, so the audio stuff is last packed, first out   8)

It is funny - I AM considering acoustics as we are house hunting.
Bryan - thanks for the offer to provide some input once I get settled in a new place.  I'll definitely give you a shout.
Mike - I'll plan some trips to Seattle for sure!!!!!!

Cheers,
Michael

REAL rooms are not going to be perfect - just the way it is.  The BIG things to look for:

- Can I set up the system symmetrically?
- Can I set it up and not have to have my seat slammed against a wall behind me?
- Is the room large enough to support the kinds of speakers I want/have and have them set up correctly?
- Where is the room located with regard to bedrooms for the SO or kids?
- Is it a stupid room that has every corner messed up with switches, doors, windows, etc.?
- Is it easy to rewire just that room with a dedicated circuit so you're not sharing a line with flourescents, motors, mechanical dimmers, etc?

Oh, and high ceilings are a bonus.  Lots of glass on the walls or tile floors are a negative.

Wood floors can sound great but they need to be tamed with a large area rug between you and the speakers.

Enjoy the journey.  My wife learned a long time ago that when we go house shopping (we've lived in IL, IA, AL, CO, NJ, MO) that we have to have at least 1 good room for the audio system.  Next house is our last and I'll be designing that from the ground up  8)  :D/  Sounds like you've got a keeper too.  :clap:

Bryan

Thanks Bryan,
I definitely want to spend time properly treating the listening space in our next house.
Fortunately, I don't have to worry about AC noise - I'm battery powered (except the Rega)  8)

Like you, I will (one day) be building a home from scratch.  We'll be going COMPETELY natural - local timber, adobe/cob from our land, earth plasters, and a tamped earth floor (looks like stained concrete but MUCH more resilient and warm).
We love area rugs on our floors and walls, so we can manage most of the immediate nasties there.

I do look forward to our likely move.  I want to really spend time optimizing the sound of the room.

Until we make our final move to our land (fully off the grid) I may treat myself to a deephemp sub to get the most out of the system while AC juice is available    :D

We had some friends over last night for sushi - an Aussie co-worker of mine and her husband, who (as I learned last night) is an audiophool too.  I was extremely aware of the inproper room treatments as we did some listening, and he noticed it as well.  He had never heard single-drivers and was amazed by the smoothness of the midrange, and felt that the room was not allowing the highs to shine.

Who knows, I may end up doing some 'quickie' temporary treatments until we move.  It's really hard with those windows, though.  Maybe a really thick blanket (down comforter) hung across the windows?

EDIT:  I am considering some GIK panels (3 in front, 4 in the front corners, 4 on the sides at the first reflection, 3 on the ceiling).  I would move these to the new place and then assess if additional treatments would be necessary (with advice from you lot, of course)  Thoughts?