AudioNervosa

I saw a featured system at Agon and the owner used various footers including Eden Sound Terra Stone bearings and a guy who posted a comment said that he could elicit quite a change by simply changing the bearing materials on diy roller blocks. His wife could easily note the improvement.

What do diy roller blocks look like? Anyone tried this and used different materials? My setup is sounding so nice nowadays that isolation tweaks are absolutely worth a try. My rack is a Pangea, which is nicely built and quite sturdy. I see videos of them being used at shows. The shelves, however, are not isolated from each other.

I was looking at some ISO Gaia's, but they're a little pricey and I have 5 components that might benefit from resonance control. Was also at Herbie's. Anyone used any of his stuff?

Would appreciate any thoughts/experiences.

Nick

   Lots of footers out there with different approaches. All sound different. The surface below contributes to choice of footer to use. Can get complicated. So first question what surface will the footers sit on ? Wood ? MDF shelf ?
  I have Pon-Tunes, Herbies, Mad Scientist, Mapleshade, Cardas wood blocks and some DIY . Do not any as the rack used made them moot. If I do install any the sound changes for the OK or worse not wow factor.
   Price as well is a factor. A good trick is to remove the top cover plates from your gear. Check that out first.


charles

Charles,
I'm virtually certain it's made of mdf and I'll try and confirm.
Nick

Quote from: Nick B on March 18, 2021, 08:46:49 AM
Charles,
I'm virtually certain it's made of mdf and I'll try and confirm.
Nick

  OK. A good rule of thumb is to use similar but dissimilar materials to contact each other. So a wood footer hard wood may be good. The Cardas are cheap enough to try. Goal is either to drain vibrations or de-couple. De-coulping the rack from floor is highly recommended. Same for TT and transport. Tubed gear drain into a plinth preferably wood. De-couple plinth from rack. There ya go in a nutshell.

charles

Quote from: rollo on March 18, 2021, 12:06:19 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 18, 2021, 08:46:49 AM
Charles,
I'm virtually certain it's made of mdf and I'll try and confirm.
Nick

  OK. A good rule of thumb is to use similar but dissimilar materials to contact each other. So a wood footer hard wood may be good. The Cardas are cheap enough to try. Goal is either to drain vibrations or de-couple. De-coulping the rack from floor is highly recommended. Same for TT and transport. Tubed gear drain into a plinth preferably wood. De-couple plinth from rack. There ya go in a nutshell.

charles

Thanks, Charles. Looks like lots of trial and error coming up. The stand has spikes with protective cups for the engineered wood flooring.

I made them many years ago. I took some scrap wood I had lying around, oak floorboards. I cut some squares and drilled a largish hole in the middle. I cut the handles off of some soup spoons I picked up at the crack house and epoxied the spoon pieces onto the blocks, in the drilled holes so they set in better. Then I found some largish (@ 1/3" diameter) metal balls online, I don't remember where (sorry) and put 4 of them under my CD player. I did try it with a cup on top and a cup on the bottom but that didn't seem to be any better than just a cup on the bottom and the CD player riding on the ball, as long as the bottom of the CD player was even.

Al also tried large marbles, but the steel ball bearings worked better. I heard that ceramic ball bearings are harder still and would be better yet, but I didn't try that.

What I did find is that these DIY rollerballs worked best on equipment with a mechanism (CD player) and also under power supplies. Definitely not as good on tubes as squishy things.

I also found some metal oval "pucks" somewhere in the past. I bought a set in aluminum and another in brass. These are about 1" diameter and have 2 convex sides, so they wobble like a roller ball when set down. The good part about these is they don't need any cup or spoon. IMO they worked as well as the DIY roller blocks and the brass was definitely better than they aluminum sound wise.

Good luck.

Good luck.

Quote from: BobM on March 19, 2021, 05:32:40 AM
I made them many years ago. I took some scrap wood I had lying around, oak floorboards. I cut some squares and drilled a largish hole in the middle. I cut the handles off of some soup spoons I picked up at the crack house and epoxied the spoon pieces onto the blocks, in the drilled holes so they set in better. Then I found some largish (@ 1/3" diameter) metal balls online, I don't remember where (sorry) and put 4 of them under my CD player. I did try it with a cup on top and a cup on the bottom but that didn't seem to be any better than just a cup on the bottom and the CD player riding on the ball, as long as the bottom of the CD player was even.

Al also tried large marbles, but the steel ball bearings worked better. I heard that ceramic ball bearings are harder still and would be better yet, but I didn't try that.

What I did find is that these DIY rollerballs worked best on equipment with a mechanism (CD player) and also under power supplies. Definitely not as good on tubes as squishy things.

I also found some metal oval "pucks" somewhere in the past. I bought a set in aluminum and another in brass. These are about 1" diameter and have 2 convex sides, so they wobble like a roller ball when set down. The good part about these is they don't need any cup or spoon. IMO they worked as well as the DIY roller blocks and the brass was definitely better than they aluminum sound wise.

Good luck.

Good luck.

Thanks, Bob. This is a little bit more what I was looking for....a "how to"... guide. I'm fine having spent money on my components, cabling and AC power line conditioning. But I can't quite accept spending a huge amount of 💰 on some of these vibration control devices

  Nick the discs under the spike are for not damaging floor nothing else. Look at Herbies Decoulpers not cheap however very affective.


charles

Quote from: rollo on March 19, 2021, 01:36:30 PM
  Nick the discs under the spike are for not damaging floor nothing else. Look at Herbies Decoulpers not cheap however very affective.


charles

OK, Charles. Looking at Herbie's

Nick

Depending on the weight of the individual components you can use the Iso Acoustics Mini Pucks under them.  A pack of eight is $99 from Amazon, AA and Crutchfield.  For the Carrera's you would need five per speaker but from looking at your gear you should be fine with either three or four under each.  The Tenderfoot and Soft Fat Dots from Herbies also work great under components and speakers. 

This is an alternative to the Rollerblock brand for about a tenth of the price and the set I have seem to work the same as the set of "real" Rollerblock Jr.'s I have.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Amplifier-Isolation-Stand-Feet-Speaker-Spikes-Pads-CD-Player-Turntable-Mats/274286991068?hash=item3fdcc756dc:g:yxoAAOSwGVVeVyUS

Quote from: Jack on March 19, 2021, 05:50:30 PM
Nick

Depending on the weight of the individual components you can use the Iso Acoustics Mini Pucks under them.  A pack of eight is $99 from Amazon, AA and Crutchfield.  For the Carrera's you would need five per speaker but from looking at your gear you should be fine with either three or four under each.  The Tenderfoot and Soft Fat Dots from Herbies also work great under components and speakers. 

This is an alternative to the Rollerblock brand for about a tenth of the price and the set I have seem to work the same as the set of "real" Rollerblock Jr.'s I have.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Amplifier-Isolation-Stand-Feet-Speaker-Spikes-Pads-CD-Player-Turntable-Mats/274286991068?hash=item3fdcc756dc:g:yxoAAOSwGVVeVyUS

Jack,

None of my components are very heavy. The Audio Hungary pre and the AVA likely weigh about the same. Thanks for the info and I will check it all out. I've been researching a bit and came across tungsten vibration devices. Very pricey, but then I thought about diy and found tungsten powder and tungsten bearings. Don't know if I could put it all together, but an intriguing thought as it only involves mechanical skills rather than electronic ones.

Nick

Quote from: Nick B on March 18, 2021, 08:46:49 AM
Charles,
I'm virtually certain it's made of mdf and I'll try and confirm.
Nick

Hi Nick,

I think we have the same rack. Definitely MDF.  And you are right that the shelves aren't really isolated from each other other than a thin grommet type of rubber material on the posts, at least one of the levels has it on mine. That's why I used ot love the Lovan racks that had the spikes between levels. Those seemed to do something more.

Had some success with vibrapods under my old cd player before as well. The only problem was the oily residue the pods left on the shelf and the fact that they seem to lose their springiness after some time.  Been wanting to try Iso Acoustics that Jack suggested as well.

Paul

Quote from: malloy on March 20, 2021, 12:11:43 AM

Quote from: Nick B on March 18, 2021, 08:46:49 AM
Charles,
I'm virtually certain it's made of mdf and I'll try and confirm.
Nick

Hi Nick,

I think we have the same rack. Definitely MDF.  And you are right that the shelves aren't really isolated from each other other than a thin grommet type of rubber material on the posts, at least one of the levels has it on mine. That's why I used ot love the Lovan racks that had the spikes between levels. Those seemed to do something more.

Had some success with vibrapods under my old cd player before as well. The only problem was the oily residue the pods left on the shelf and the fact that they seem to lose their springiness after some time.  Been wanting to try Iso Acoustics that Jack suggested as well.

Paul

Hey Paul,

I'd be fine to get a better rack....maybe $600...but not sure if it'll provide enough improvement as I want to use isolation under each component anyway. This is all a brave new world for me anyway. At least my Pangea is very solid...looks good too. Sure don't want any residue left on a shelf from goopy stuff. I've been thinking about ISOs and specifically the Gaia's for a while and I'm sure a couple of guys here have liked them. Jack's suggestions have panned out for me in the past, so maybe worth a try and AA has my customer info already. I'm darn curious how much more performance I can squeeze out of this system...

Nick

Wow! $600!! Now you're talking! I'm curious as well how much more sound you can coax out with better racks and isolation. Much as I'd like to spend more than a few hundred on a rack, I can't justify it if it will end up costing more than the amp placed on it.  :)

I just saw these: https://www.futureshop.co.uk/atacama-evoque-eco-special-edition-hifi-rack

I wonder how much these will end up after shipping across the pond? Anyway, keep us posted!

Paul

Quote from: malloy on March 20, 2021, 01:00:25 AM
Wow! $600!! Now you're talking! I'm curious as well how much more sound you can coax out with better racks and isolation. Much as I'd like to spend more than a few hundred on a rack, I can't justify it if it will end up costing more than the amp placed on it.  :)

I just saw these: https://www.futureshop.co.uk/atacama-evoque-eco-special-edition-hifi-rack

I wonder how much these will end up after shipping across the pond? Anyway, keep us posted!

Paul

The atacama, especially in dark bamboo, with 4 shelves run about $1,386 USD  excluding shipping...not for the faint of heart. I'd sure like to hear what a rack like that and individually isolated components can sound like. Will indeed keep you posted, Paul.

Oops, it's very late again. Darned AVA amp  :lol:

Quote from: BobM on March 19, 2021, 05:32:40 AM
I made them many years ago. I took some scrap wood I had lying around, oak floorboards. I cut some squares and drilled a largish hole in the middle. I cut the handles off of some soup spoons I picked up at the crack house and epoxied the spoon pieces onto the blocks, in the drilled holes so they set in better. Then I found some largish (@ 1/3" diameter) metal balls online, I don't remember where (sorry) and put 4 of them under my CD player. I did try it with a cup on top and a cup on the bottom but that didn't seem to be any better than just a cup on the bottom and the CD player riding on the ball, as long as the bottom of the CD player was even.

Al also tried large marbles, but the steel ball bearings worked better. I heard that ceramic ball bearings are harder still and would be better yet, but I didn't try that.

What I did find is that these DIY rollerballs worked best on equipment with a mechanism (CD player) and also under power supplies. Definitely not as good on tubes as squishy things.

I also found some metal oval "pucks" somewhere in the past. I bought a set in aluminum and another in brass. These are about 1" diameter and have 2 convex sides, so they wobble like a roller ball when set down. The good part about these is they don't need any cup or spoon. IMO they worked as well as the DIY roller blocks and the brass was definitely better than they aluminum sound wise.

Good luck.

Good luck.

We has a couple of guys in the club (Bob I'm sure you can guess who) that experimented years ago with this concept using a bag of glass marbles the bought at Toys r Us. They swore up and down that the different colored glass sounded different. I don't  know that anybody else heard any difference, but they were adamant.

Nick if you want to just your toes into the isolation world check out Mapleshade Isoblocks. They only cost $36 for a set of four. But in reality they are actually a very common part in the commercial air conditioning world that is used under Central air compressor units to dispute vibration and lower the operating noise. If you have any kind of HVAC supply house near you print outa picture of them and bring it to th counter and I am sure they will be able to hook you up. I paid 21 cents a piece for mine.  Mapleshade glues two of them together and sells them for $9, and even that is a pretty much unheard of price for anything in this hobby.

I use stacks of two under all of my tube gear because it has top and bottom vents and the extra clearance off the deck helps them draft and dissipate heat better.

They came two ways, a natural cork center and a center of some kind of composite material. They sounded slightly different and I liked the cork better.  However the difference was slight and iboth were better than nothing. If I did not have then to compare head to head I would have easily been happy with either one. But they are cheap enough that you could buy both and see for yourself.

And being as neurotic as I am I took both sets out side with a sound pressure meter and measured what changes were caused by putting them under my AC unit. The spec sheets said that the blue composite ones provided more damping but I could not measure any different. The both lowered the noise from the unit but abot 3db. Not bad for a $1.26 investment (I used 6 of them u deftness A/C.) I left the blue ones in place not because they did a better job, but rather because I thought the composite material would hold up to the weather better than the natural cork.

I have to credit the Pumpkin man for turning me on to these little gems.

I am sure there are products out there that can do a better job, but not at a price that is anywhere near 21 cents.

Quote from: tmazz on March 21, 2021, 12:13:05 AM

Quote from: BobM on March 19, 2021, 05:32:40 AM
I made them many years ago. I took some scrap wood I had lying around, oak floorboards. I cut some squares and drilled a largish hole in the middle. I cut the handles off of some soup spoons I picked up at the crack house and epoxied the spoon pieces onto the blocks, in the drilled holes so they set in better. Then I found some largish (@ 1/3" diameter) metal balls online, I don't remember where (sorry) and put 4 of them under my CD player. I did try it with a cup on top and a cup on the bottom but that didn't seem to be any better than just a cup on the bottom and the CD player riding on the ball, as long as the bottom of the CD player was even.

Al also tried large marbles, but the steel ball bearings worked better. I heard that ceramic ball bearings are harder still and would be better yet, but I didn't try that.

What I did find is that these DIY rollerballs worked best on equipment with a mechanism (CD player) and also under power supplies. Definitely not as good on tubes as squishy things.

I also found some metal oval "pucks" somewhere in the past. I bought a set in aluminum and another in brass. These are about 1" diameter and have 2 convex sides, so they wobble like a roller ball when set down. The good part about these is they don't need any cup or spoon. IMO they worked as well as the DIY roller blocks and the brass was definitely better than they aluminum sound wise.

Good luck.

Good luck.

We has a couple of guys in the club (Bob I'm sure you can guess who) that experimented years ago with this concept using a bag of glass marbles the bought at Toys r Us. They swore up and down that the different colored glass sounded different. I don't  know that anybody else heard any difference, but they were adamant.

A few years ago when the Vegas audio club was still together, we had a guy there who had quite a system. He had a glass container that contained some sort of a dark liquid. He and his wife claimed they could hear a difference. The device was never removed from the room for us to evaluate if it worked.

Quote from: tmazz on March 21, 2021, 12:47:37 AM
Nick if you want to just your toes into the isolation world check out Mapleshade Isoblocks. They only cost $36 for a set of four. But in reality they are actually a very common part in the commercial air conditioning world that is used under Central air compressor units to dispute vibration and lower the operating noise. If you have any kind of HVAC supply house near you print outa picture of them and bring it to th counter and I am sure they will be able to hook you up. I paid 21 cents a piece for mine.  Mapleshade glues two of them together and sells them for $9, and even that is a pretty much unheard of price for anything in this hobby.

I use stacks of two under all of my tube gear because it has top and bottom vents and the extra clearance off the deck helps them draft and dissipate heat better.

They came two ways, a natural cork center and a center of some kind of composite material. They sounded slightly different and I liked the cork better.  However the difference was slight and iboth were better than nothing. If I did not have then to compare head to head I would have easily been happy with either one. But they are cheap enough that you could buy both and see for yourself.

And being as neurotic as I am I took both sets out side with a sound pressure meter and measured what changes were caused by putting them under my AC unit. The spec sheets said that the blue composite ones provided more damping but I could not measure any different. The both lowered the noise from the unit but abot 3db. Not bad for a $1.26 investment (I used 6 of them u deftness A/C.) I left the blue ones in place not because they did a better job, but rather because I thought the composite material would hold up to the weather better than the natural cork.

I have to credit the Pumpkin man for turning me on to these little gems.

I am sure there are products out there that can do a better job, but not at a price that is anywhere near 21 cents.

Tom,

I just did a screenshot and will find an hvac supply place. 21 cents each is my kind of cheap experiment. A friend brought these over (the double glued cork type) 3-4 years ago and put them under my components. Took them back next time he visited. I never did a direct a/b, but my system now resolves much, much better than back in those days. So I'll be quite curious.

Not sure where to start, but probably under my preamp.

My feeling is at that price you buy a bag of 20 or so units an spend a few days just experimenting. If they make an improvement, great, and if not you had a weekend worth of audio fun for less than the cost of a Big Mac.

Have fun!

Quote from: Nick B on March 21, 2021, 11:43:21 AM

Quote from: tmazz on March 21, 2021, 12:47:37 AM
Nick if you want to just your toes into the isolation world check out Mapleshade Isoblocks. They only cost $36 for a set of four. But in reality they are actually a very common part in the commercial air conditioning world that is used under Central air compressor units to dispute vibration and lower the operating noise. If you have any kind of HVAC supply house near you print outa picture of them and bring it to th counter and I am sure they will be able to hook you up. I paid 21 cents a piece for mine.  Mapleshade glues two of them together and sells them for $9, and even that is a pretty much unheard of price for anything in this hobby.

I use stacks of two under all of my tube gear because it has top and bottom vents and the extra clearance off the deck helps them draft and dissipate heat better.

They came two ways, a natural cork center and a center of some kind of composite material. They sounded slightly different and I liked the cork better.  However the difference was slight and iboth were better than nothing. If I did not have then to compare head to head I would have easily been happy with either one. But they are cheap enough that you could buy both and see for yourself.

And being as neurotic as I am I took both sets out side with a sound pressure meter and measured what changes were caused by putting them under my AC unit. The spec sheets said that the blue composite ones provided more damping but I could not measure any different. The both lowered the noise from the unit but abot 3db. Not bad for a $1.26 investment (I used 6 of them u deftness A/C.) I left the blue ones in place not because they did a better job, but rather because I thought the composite material would hold up to the weather better than the natural cork.

I have to credit the Pumpkin man for turning me on to these little gems.

I am sure there are products out there that can do a better job, but not at a price that is anywhere near 21 cents.

Tom,

I just did a screenshot and will find an hvac supply place. 21 cents each is my kind of cheap experiment. A friend brought these over (the double glued cork type) 3-4 years ago and put them under my components. Took them back next time he visited. I never did a direct a/b, but my system now resolves much, much better than back in those days. So I'll be quite curious.

Not sure where to start, but probably under my preamp.

To get the 21 cents price you gotta buy bulk.   I bought a box of these from this supplier:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPE-200-E-V-A-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Here's the other version with cork center:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPRC-200-Rubber-Cork-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Just shows you what crooks some of these high-end vendors are.  For a set of 4 (8 pieces) MS charges more than 16X the material cost!      :roll:

  All good suggestions however a goal is required. Do you want to isolate, drain, dampen or dissipate energy from the the component. Devices are designed for each category. Iso Blocks well Isolate. Sorbathane soaks up vibrations, Cones transfer vibrations. There are brass cones, wood cones, composite cones.

charles

Quote from: toobluvr on March 21, 2021, 11:30:51 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 21, 2021, 11:43:21 AM

Quote from: tmazz on March 21, 2021, 12:47:37 AM
Nick if you want to just your toes into the isolation world check out Mapleshade Isoblocks. They only cost $36 for a set of four. But in reality they are actually a very common part in the commercial air conditioning world that is used under Central air compressor units to dispute vibration and lower the operating noise. If you have any kind of HVAC supply house near you print outa picture of them and bring it to th counter and I am sure they will be able to hook you up. I paid 21 cents a piece for mine.  Mapleshade glues two of them together and sells them for $9, and even that is a pretty much unheard of price for anything in this hobby.

I use stacks of two under all of my tube gear because it has top and bottom vents and the extra clearance off the deck helps them draft and dissipate heat better.

They came two ways, a natural cork center and a center of some kind of composite material. They sounded slightly different and I liked the cork better.  However the difference was slight and iboth were better than nothing. If I did not have then to compare head to head I would have easily been happy with either one. But they are cheap enough that you could buy both and see for yourself.

And being as neurotic as I am I took both sets out side with a sound pressure meter and measured what changes were caused by putting them under my AC unit. The spec sheets said that the blue composite ones provided more damping but I could not measure any different. The both lowered the noise from the unit but abot 3db. Not bad for a $1.26 investment (I used 6 of them u deftness A/C.) I left the blue ones in place not because they did a better job, but rather because I thought the composite material would hold up to the weather better than the natural cork.

I have to credit the Pumpkin man for turning me on to these little gems.

I am sure there are products out there that can do a better job, but not at a price that is anywhere near 21 cents.

Tom,

I just did a screenshot and will find an hvac supply place. 21 cents each is my kind of cheap experiment. A friend brought these over (the double glued cork type) 3-4 years ago and put them under my components. Took them back next time he visited. I never did a direct a/b, but my system now resolves much, much better than back in those days. So I'll be quite curious.

Not sure where to start, but probably under my preamp.

To get the 21 cents price you gotta buy bulk.   I bought a box of these from this supplier:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPE-200-E-V-A-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Here's the other version with cork center:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPRC-200-Rubber-Cork-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Just shows you what crooks some of these high-end vendors are.  For a set of 4 (8 pieces) MS charges more than 16X the material cost!      :roll:

Thanks for the link. As it's a nice day here, I'm going to check out the three air conditioning supply places up here.

Quote from: rollo on March 22, 2021, 08:20:25 AM
  All good suggestions however a goal is required. Do you want to isolate, drain, dampen or dissipate energy from the the component. Devices are designed for each category. Iso Blocks well Isolate. Sorbathane soaks up vibrations, Cones transfer vibrations. There are brass cones, wood cones, composite cones.

charles

Charles,
My goal is to squeeze out maximum performance of the gear that I'm using right now. I don't know what to expect getting into this area of anti-vibration technology. After I'm done with the vibration control, I will move on to acoustic treatment. That's another area that I've never gotten into.

It would be nice to have this result in more detail retrieval, a slightly cleaner presentation,  maybe a slight improvement in bass presentation. I currently don't have a CD player and I'm never going back to one. I am streaming only 100% nowadays. I realize that the different products isolate, dampen, drain etc. I'm trying to get it clear in my mind as to which of my components would function better with which of these anti-vibration devices. My entire house is concrete slab and the engineered flooring in the living room listening area has a very thin rubber? backing. So this is a quite solid floor.

I am also wondering if I should replace my Pangea rack with some thing like a VTI that has the spikes that provide isolation for each shelf. I'm willing to spend five or 600 bucks on a new audio rack. Lots to think about right now....

Quote from: toobluvr on March 21, 2021, 11:30:51 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 21, 2021, 11:43:21 AM

Quote from: tmazz on March 21, 2021, 12:47:37 AM
Nick if you want to just your toes into the isolation world check out Mapleshade Isoblocks. They only cost $36 for a set of four. But in reality they are actually a very common part in the commercial air conditioning world that is used under Central air compressor units to dispute vibration and lower the operating noise. If you have any kind of HVAC supply house near you print outa picture of them and bring it to th counter and I am sure they will be able to hook you up. I paid 21 cents a piece for mine.  Mapleshade glues two of them together and sells them for $9, and even that is a pretty much unheard of price for anything in this hobby.

I use stacks of two under all of my tube gear because it has top and bottom vents and the extra clearance off the deck helps them draft and dissipate heat better.

They came two ways, a natural cork center and a center of some kind of composite material. They sounded slightly different and I liked the cork better.  However the difference was slight and iboth were better than nothing. If I did not have then to compare head to head I would have easily been happy with either one. But they are cheap enough that you could buy both and see for yourself.

And being as neurotic as I am I took both sets out side with a sound pressure meter and measured what changes were caused by putting them under my AC unit. The spec sheets said that the blue composite ones provided more damping but I could not measure any different. The both lowered the noise from the unit but abot 3db. Not bad for a $1.26 investment (I used 6 of them u deftness A/C.) I left the blue ones in place not because they did a better job, but rather because I thought the composite material would hold up to the weather better than the natural cork.

I have to credit the Pumpkin man for turning me on to these little gems.

I am sure there are products out there that can do a better job, but not at a price that is anywhere near 21 cents.

Tom,

I just did a screenshot and will find an hvac supply place. 21 cents each is my kind of cheap experiment. A friend brought these over (the double glued cork type) 3-4 years ago and put them under my components. Took them back next time he visited. I never did a direct a/b, but my system now resolves much, much better than back in those days. So I'll be quite curious.

Not sure where to start, but probably under my preamp.

To get the 21 cents price you gotta buy bulk.   I bought a box of these from this supplier:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPE-200-E-V-A-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Here's the other version with cork center:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPRC-200-Rubber-Cork-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Just shows you what crooks some of these high-end vendors are.  For a set of 4 (8 pieces) MS charges more than 16X the material cost!      :roll:

Thanks for the info. I went to two HVAC suppliers today and both only have the cork in the 4 x 4 size. I'm not gonna mess trying to cut those into smaller pieces with a large wood blade on my table circular saw.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Anti-Vibration-Pads-rubber-cork-2-x-2-x-7-8-HVAC-COMPRESSOR-/190770569459

Still pricey @$12.95, but...

Quote from: P.I. on March 22, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Anti-Vibration-Pads-rubber-cork-2-x-2-x-7-8-HVAC-COMPRESSOR-/190770569459

Still pricey @$12.95, but...

I bought a box of those, mounted some concave drawer pulls in them, and put a ball bearing in it.  That sits under a cutting board and my turntable. 
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/5d/8b/1f5d8b7a59a772474489df8092a30ef1.jpg)

Quote from: Nick B on March 22, 2021, 09:31:20 AM

Quote from: rollo on March 22, 2021, 08:20:25 AM
  All good suggestions however a goal is required. Do you want to isolate, drain, dampen or dissipate energy from the the component. Devices are designed for each category. Iso Blocks well Isolate. Sorbathane soaks up vibrations, Cones transfer vibrations. There are brass cones, wood cones, composite cones.

charles

Charles,
My goal is to squeeze out maximum performance of the gear that I'm using right now. I don't know what to expect getting into this area of anti-vibration technology. After I'm done with the vibration control, I will move on to acoustic treatment. That's another area that I've never gotten into.

It would be nice to have this result in more detail retrieval, a slightly cleaner presentation,  maybe a slight improvement in bass presentation. I currently don't have a CD player and I'm never going back to one. I am streaming only 100% nowadays. I realize that the different products isolate, dampen, drain etc. I'm trying to get it clear in my mind as to which of my components would function better with which of these anti-vibration devices. My entire house is concrete slab and the engineered flooring in the living room listening area has a very thin rubber? backing. So this is a quite solid floor.

I am also wondering if I should replace my Pangea rack with some thing like a VTI that has the spikes that provide isolation for each shelf. I'm willing to spend five or 600 bucks on a new audio rack. Lots to think about right now....

  OK then. Speaker location will affect and improve bass production. IMHO I would do the room first. Everything you described can be attained with an acoustically treated room. Requires a spectrum analyzer to measure. Consult with a room treatment vendor and be happier. As far as the rack is concerned that may be a sideways move for now. Tubes like draining and absorbing. DAC isolation, streamer isolation. BTW consider improved power supplies for your digital as well as a Digibuss.

charles

Quote from: S Clark on March 23, 2021, 07:41:02 AM

Quote from: P.I. on March 22, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Anti-Vibration-Pads-rubber-cork-2-x-2-x-7-8-HVAC-COMPRESSOR-/190770569459

Still pricey @$12.95, but...

I bought a box of those, mounted some concave drawer pulls in them, and put a ball bearing in it.  That sits under a cutting board and my turntable. 
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/5d/8b/1f5d8b7a59a772474489df8092a30ef1.jpg)

Yeah, they have those at Lowes.  For a selection of balls go here:

https://www.vxb.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwo-aCBhC-ARIsAAkNQitFg0cp0NiAp1Bmno1pG-u-1cB9Vmwy2Aq7Z6nrQGB-kR2j7FP5uN8aAj7dEALw_wcB

Quote from: P.I. on March 22, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Anti-Vibration-Pads-rubber-cork-2-x-2-x-7-8-HVAC-COMPRESSOR-/190770569459

Still pricey @$12.95, but...

Naw, that's fine...and better than me trying to use a big rough wood blade to cut the 4x4 size.

Quote from: rollo on March 23, 2021, 08:20:14 AM

Quote from: Nick B on March 22, 2021, 09:31:20 AM

Quote from: rollo on March 22, 2021, 08:20:25 AM
  All good suggestions however a goal is required. Do you want to isolate, drain, dampen or dissipate energy from the the component. Devices are designed for each category. Iso Blocks well Isolate. Sorbathane soaks up vibrations, Cones transfer vibrations. There are brass cones, wood cones, composite cones.

charles

Charles,
My goal is to squeeze out maximum performance of the gear that I'm using right now. I don't know what to expect getting into this area of anti-vibration technology. After I'm done with the vibration control, I will move on to acoustic treatment. That's another area that I've never gotten into.

It would be nice to have this result in more detail retrieval, a slightly cleaner presentation,  maybe a slight improvement in bass presentation. I currently don't have a CD player and I'm never going back to one. I am streaming only 100% nowadays. I realize that the different products isolate, dampen, drain etc. I'm trying to get it clear in my mind as to which of my components would function better with which of these anti-vibration devices. My entire house is concrete slab and the engineered flooring in the living room listening area has a very thin rubber? backing. So this is a quite solid floor.

I am also wondering if I should replace my Pangea rack with some thing like a VTI that has the spikes that provide isolation for each shelf. I'm willing to spend five or 600 bucks on a new audio rack. Lots to think about right now....

  OK then. Speaker location will affect and improve bass production. IMHO I would do the room first. Everything you described can be attained with an acoustically treated room. Requires a spectrum analyzer to measure. Consult with a room treatment vendor and be happier. As far as the rack is concerned that may be a sideways move for now. Tubes like draining and absorbing. DAC isolation, streamer isolation. BTW consider improved power supplies for your digital as well as a Digibuss.

charles

Charles,

You know way more about this than stuff than I do. But I'm thinking of leaving room treatments for last because.... Dave and his buddy Greg looked at pics of my very strange and asymmetrical room many months ago and their comments weren't encouraging.

The Auralic Mini Streamer already has the Mojo Audio linear power supply.... a very good power supply and worth the improvement.

Quote from: S Clark on March 23, 2021, 07:41:02 AM

Quote from: P.I. on March 22, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Anti-Vibration-Pads-rubber-cork-2-x-2-x-7-8-HVAC-COMPRESSOR-/190770569459

Still pricey @$12.95, but...

I bought a box of those, mounted some concave drawer pulls in them, and put a ball bearing in it.  That sits under a cutting board and my turntable. 
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/5d/8b/1f5d8b7a59a772474489df8092a30ef1.jpg)

What an interesting and inexpensive  idea  :thumb:

Quote from: P.I. on March 23, 2021, 10:27:11 AM

Quote from: S Clark on March 23, 2021, 07:41:02 AM

Quote from: P.I. on March 22, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Anti-Vibration-Pads-rubber-cork-2-x-2-x-7-8-HVAC-COMPRESSOR-/190770569459

Still pricey @$12.95, but...

I bought a box of those, mounted some concave drawer pulls in them, and put a ball bearing in it.  That sits under a cutting board and my turntable. 
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/5d/8b/1f5d8b7a59a772474489df8092a30ef1.jpg)

Yeah, they have those at Lowes.  For a selection of balls go here:

https://www.vxb.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwo-aCBhC-ARIsAAkNQitFg0cp0NiAp1Bmno1pG-u-1cB9Vmwy2Aq7Z6nrQGB-kR2j7FP5uN8aAj7dEALw_wcB

Gee, I wish I had that link before I retired. I worked for quite a few bosses and executives that could have used a good set of balls.   :rofl:

Quote from: tmazz on March 23, 2021, 07:42:26 PM

Quote from: P.I. on March 23, 2021, 10:27:11 AM

Quote from: S Clark on March 23, 2021, 07:41:02 AM

Quote from: P.I. on March 22, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Anti-Vibration-Pads-rubber-cork-2-x-2-x-7-8-HVAC-COMPRESSOR-/190770569459

Still pricey @$12.95, but...

I bought a box of those, mounted some concave drawer pulls in them, and put a ball bearing in it.  That sits under a cutting board and my turntable. 
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/5d/8b/1f5d8b7a59a772474489df8092a30ef1.jpg)

Yeah, they have those at Lowes.  For a selection of balls go here:

https://www.vxb.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwo-aCBhC-ARIsAAkNQitFg0cp0NiAp1Bmno1pG-u-1cB9Vmwy2Aq7Z6nrQGB-kR2j7FP5uN8aAj7dEALw_wcB

Gee, I wish I had that link before I retired. I worked for quite a few bosses and executives that could have used a good set of balls.   :rofl:

Umm, think I'll refrain from further comment  :rofl:

Quote from: tmazz on March 23, 2021, 07:42:26 PM

Quote from: P.I. on March 23, 2021, 10:27:11 AM

Quote from: S Clark on March 23, 2021, 07:41:02 AM

Quote from: P.I. on March 22, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Anti-Vibration-Pads-rubber-cork-2-x-2-x-7-8-HVAC-COMPRESSOR-/190770569459

Still pricey @$12.95, but...

I bought a box of those, mounted some concave drawer pulls in them, and put a ball bearing in it.  That sits under a cutting board and my turntable. 
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/5d/8b/1f5d8b7a59a772474489df8092a30ef1.jpg)

Yeah, they have those at Lowes.  For a selection of balls go here:

https://www.vxb.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwo-aCBhC-ARIsAAkNQitFg0cp0NiAp1Bmno1pG-u-1cB9Vmwy2Aq7Z6nrQGB-kR2j7FP5uN8aAj7dEALw_wcB

Gee, I wish I had that link before I retired. I worked for quite a few bosses and executives that could have used a good set of balls.   :rofl:

Indeed!  The gutsiest boss I ever had was a woman...

Quote from: toobluvr on March 21, 2021, 11:30:51 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 21, 2021, 11:43:21 AM

Quote from: tmazz on March 21, 2021, 12:47:37 AM
Nick if you want to just your toes into the isolation world check out Mapleshade Isoblocks. They only cost $36 for a set of four. But in reality they are actually a very common part in the commercial air conditioning world that is used under Central air compressor units to dispute vibration and lower the operating noise. If you have any kind of HVAC supply house near you print outa picture of them and bring it to th counter and I am sure they will be able to hook you up. I paid 21 cents a piece for mine.  Mapleshade glues two of them together and sells them for $9, and even that is a pretty much unheard of price for anything in this hobby.

I use stacks of two under all of my tube gear because it has top and bottom vents and the extra clearance off the deck helps them draft and dissipate heat better.

They came two ways, a natural cork center and a center of some kind of composite material. They sounded slightly different and I liked the cork better.  However the difference was slight and iboth were better than nothing. If I did not have then to compare head to head I would have easily been happy with either one. But they are cheap enough that you could buy both and see for yourself.

And being as neurotic as I am I took both sets out side with a sound pressure meter and measured what changes were caused by putting them under my AC unit. The spec sheets said that the blue composite ones provided more damping but I could not measure any different. The both lowered the noise from the unit but abot 3db. Not bad for a $1.26 investment (I used 6 of them u deftness A/C.) I left the blue ones in place not because they did a better job, but rather because I thought the composite material would hold up to the weather better than the natural cork.

I have to credit the Pumpkin man for turning me on to these little gems.

I am sure there are products out there that can do a better job, but not at a price that is anywhere near 21 cents.

Tom,

I just did a screenshot and will find an hvac supply place. 21 cents each is my kind of cheap experiment. A friend brought these over (the double glued cork type) 3-4 years ago and put them under my components. Took them back next time he visited. I never did a direct a/b, but my system now resolves much, much better than back in those days. So I'll be quite curious.

Not sure where to start, but probably under my preamp.

To get the 21 cents price you gotta buy bulk.   I bought a box of these from this supplier:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPE-200-E-V-A-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Here's the other version with cork center:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPRC-200-Rubber-Cork-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Just shows you what crooks some of these high-end vendors are.  For a set of 4 (8 pieces) MS charges more than 16X the material cost!      :roll:

I just ordered a bunch of these as I'll try them under speakers and all components. Only thing of concern is a couple of comments about the smell...supposedly will be here by Friday

They are pretty smelly. 

I use them in obvious places to knock down vibrations: 

*  between the BB platforms my two turntables sit on and the rack's butcher block shelving
*  between my subs and BB slabs they sit on  (subs came without feet or spikes)
*  under the monitors that sit on a wooden dresser in my BR system

My 150 lb floorstanders (designed to be used without spikes, and none included) sit on carpetting.  But if they sat on wood floors, I'd try the blocks under them as well -- just to keep LF energy / vibrations from travelling thru the floors.

Also use them anywhere I want to create space between stacked gear, and to prop up heavy power cords at the IEC outlets.  Limitless uses.  So many in a box...and so cheap.....I just use them.  Even for non sonic purposes like propping and spacing, etc.

Do they improve the sound?  Damned if I know.  I don't get anal about this tweeky stuff, and I sure as hell don't A/B with and without.  So long as I don't hear a detriment upon insertion, I go with it.  My attitude is use it "just in case" it does improve things.   
I can say this....
I can jump up and down in front of both tables, and I can knuckle wrap pretty hard on my DIY rack and neither table skips a beat.  Also passes with flying colors the standard Fremer tap test with needle in groove of non-rotating platter.  And my subs don't rattle and rumble thru the floors, keeping my neighbors happy.

Quote from: toobluvr on March 24, 2021, 06:38:13 PM
They are pretty smelly. 

I use them in obvious places to knock down vibrations: 

*  between the BB platforms my two turntables sit on and the rack's butcher block shelving
*  between my subs and BB slabs they sit on  (subs came without feet or spikes)
*  under the monitors that sit on a wooden dresser in my BR system

My 150 lb floorstanders (designed to be used without spikes, and none included) sit on carpetting.  But if they sat on wood floors, I'd try the blocks under them as well -- just to keep LF energy / vibrations from travelling thru the floors.

Also use them anywhere I want to create space between stacked gear, and to prop up heavy power cords at the IEC outlets.  Limitless uses.  So many in a box...and so cheap.....I just use them.  Even for non sonic purposes like propping and spacing, etc.

Do they improve the sound?  Damned if I know.  I don't get anal about this tweeky stuff, and I sure as hell don't A/B with and without.  So long as I don't hear a detriment upon insertion, I go with it.  My attitude is use it "just in case" it does improve things.   
I can say this....
I can jump up and down in front of both tables, and I can knuckle wrap pretty hard on my DIY rack and neither table skips a beat.  Also passes with flying colors the standard Fremer tap test with needle in groove of non-rotating platter.  And my subs don't rattle and rumble thru the floors, keeping my neighbors happy.

Well, I didn't pay much, so it's worth a try. I bought enough to try between stands and speakers and all components. If they're too smelly, I may try the cork type. With all the synthetics and petroleum based products, I pay some attention to indoor pollution as well.

My point exactly.  So cheap, not much to lose by trying them.

The smell does dissipate, but I started using mine immediately and it took a while.  Maybe try airing them out first?  Remove them from the box and spread them out in the open air: back deck, porch, garage, etc.  Maybe even blow a fan across them? Worth a shot.

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 07:49:44 AM
My point exactly.  So cheap, not much to lose by trying them.

The smell does dissipate, but I started using mine immediately and it took a while.  Maybe try airing them out first?  Remove them from the box and spread them out in the open air: back deck, porch, garage, etc.  Maybe even blow a fan across them? Worth a shot.

I will put them outside for a day at least and use a fan.

One other thing....

Sometimes they leave a black mark on what it rests on.  So if you have nice furniture I suggest putting a piece of paper under the pad.

In my situation, it doesn't do it on everything.  Mainly on my BB boards and shelves.   I think maybe it depends on how the surface is finished, and somehow interacts with the rubber?   

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 09:18:26 AM
One other thing....

Sometimes they leave a black mark on what it rests on.  So if you have nice furniture I suggest putting a piece of paper under the pad.

In my situation, it doesn't do it on everything.  Mainly on my BB boards and shelves.   I think maybe it depends on how the surface is finished, and somehow interacts with the rubber?

Thanks for that info. My Pangea rack has a nice carbon fiber finish and I also wouldn't want to mar the beautiful walnut finish on the bottom of my Fritzies. Think I may cut some baggies...
Nick

Quote from: Nick B on March 25, 2021, 01:05:24 PM

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 09:18:26 AM
One other thing....

Sometimes they leave a black mark on what it rests on.  So if you have nice furniture I suggest putting a piece of paper under the pad.

In my situation, it doesn't do it on everything.  Mainly on my BB boards and shelves.   I think maybe it depends on how the surface is finished, and somehow interacts with the rubber?

Thanks for that info. My Pangea rack has a nice carbon fiber finish and I also wouldn't want to mar the beautiful walnut finish on the bottom of my Fritzies. Think I may cut some baggies...
Nick

That will work, as will anything you put between the pad and surface to protect.  Personally, I would just put masking tape on the pad.  Probably the easiest and quickest installation.  And it moves with the pad as you adjust its location under the gear, unlike something like a piece of paper.

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 01:11:41 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 25, 2021, 01:05:24 PM

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 09:18:26 AM
One other thing....

Sometimes they leave a black mark on what it rests on.  So if you have nice furniture I suggest putting a piece of paper under the pad.

In my situation, it doesn't do it on everything.  Mainly on my BB boards and shelves.   I think maybe it depends on how the surface is finished, and somehow interacts with the rubber?

Thanks for that info. My Pangea rack has a nice carbon fiber finish and I also wouldn't want to mar the beautiful walnut finish on the bottom of my Fritzies. Think I may cut some baggies...
Nick

That will work, as will anything you put between the pad and surface to protect.  Personally, I would just put masking tape on the pad.  Probably the easiest and quickest installation.  And it moves with the pad as you adjust its location under the gear, unlike something like a piece of paper.

Yup.

In the past when there were finish/gooey pad reactions, I used tissue paper as an interface. I like three idea of an incredibly thin barrier.

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 01:11:41 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 25, 2021, 01:05:24 PM

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 09:18:26 AM
One other thing....

Sometimes they leave a black mark on what it rests on.  So if you have nice furniture I suggest putting a piece of paper under the pad.

In my situation, it doesn't do it on everything.  Mainly on my BB boards and shelves.   I think maybe it depends on how the surface is finished, and somehow interacts with the rubber?

Thanks for that info. My Pangea rack has a nice carbon fiber finish and I also wouldn't want to mar the beautiful walnut finish on the bottom of my Fritzies. Think I may cut some baggies...
Nick

That will work, as will anything you put between the pad and surface to protect.  Personally, I would just put masking tape on the pad.  Probably the easiest and quickest installation.  And it moves with the pad as you adjust its location under the gear, unlike something like a piece of paper.

That is a simpler way of doing it. Baggie idea is discarded.

Quote from: P.I. on March 25, 2021, 06:14:32 PM

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 01:11:41 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 25, 2021, 01:05:24 PM

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 09:18:26 AM
One other thing....

Sometimes they leave a black mark on what it rests on.  So if you have nice furniture I suggest putting a piece of paper under the pad.

In my situation, it doesn't do it on everything.  Mainly on my BB boards and shelves.   I think maybe it depends on how the surface is finished, and somehow interacts with the rubber?

Thanks for that info. My Pangea rack has a nice carbon fiber finish and I also wouldn't want to mar the beautiful walnut finish on the bottom of my Fritzies. Think I may cut some baggies...
Nick

That will work, as will anything you put between the pad and surface to protect.  Personally, I would just put masking tape on the pad.  Probably the easiest and quickest installation.  And it moves with the pad as you adjust its location under the gear, unlike something like a piece of paper.

Yup.

In the past when there were finish/gooey pad reactions, I used tissue paper as an interface. I like three idea of an incredibly thin barrier.

Dave,
Won't tissue paper possibly absorb some of the gooey stuff and get gooey itself?
I'm wondering about some rice paper maybe.

I would go with masking tape and just check it periodically.  If some kind of goo interaction is bleeding through, you will know early on before any damage.  It doesn't happen overnight.

Better yet, just attach multiple layers of tape.  I gotta believe 2 or 3 is more than sufficient.

Or if you are really worried about bleed thru, just tape on some squares from cut up file folders.  It is stout dense paper without being too thick.  I bet big bux it would pass no goo.  Tape it on so barrier moves with the pad as you adjust its position.

But I think this is overkill.  I think layers of taper are fine....probably even just one.

Quote from: toobluvr on March 25, 2021, 09:06:53 PM
I would go with masking tape and just check it periodically.  If some kind of goo interaction is bleeding through, you will know early on before any damage.  It doesn't happen overnight.

Better yet, just attach multiple layers of tape.  I gotta believe 2 or 3 is more than sufficient.

Or if you are really worried about bleed thru, just tape on some squares from cut up file folders.  It is stout dense paper without being too thick.  I bet big bux it would pass no goo.  Tape it on so barrier moves with the pad as you adjust its position.

But I think this is overkill.  I think layers of taper are fine....probably even just one.

I expect they will be delivered today as promised. I have a few types of masking tape and that's what I'll be trying first (after allowing outgassing). Masking tape is easiet to cut and to place and won't slip. Think I'll start under speakers only at first. Then the preamp.

Quote from: Nick B on March 25, 2021, 08:21:26 PM
Dave,
Won't tissue paper possibly absorb some of the gooey stuff and get gooey itself?
I'm wondering about some rice paper maybe.

I set them in the sun for a few days and that seemed to take care of the issue.  Rice or fish paper would probably be better, though...

Quote from: P.I. on March 26, 2021, 10:49:35 AM

Quote from: Nick B on March 25, 2021, 08:21:26 PM
Dave,
Won't tissue paper possibly absorb some of the gooey stuff and get gooey itself?
I'm wondering about some rice paper maybe.

I set them in the sun for a few days and that seemed to take care of the issue.  Rice or fish paper would probably be better, though...

I was going to put them in the sun this afternoon, but Friday UPS delivery has morphed into Monday. Oh well...I'll try masking tape and also either paper you mentioned. Maybe an art store would have the rice paper. As to the fish paper, I guess the local market...

I really don't think there's any reason to overthink it, or go to any great effort, or even leave the house to procure anything.

Any paper around the house will work.  Wax paper?  Notebook paper?  A glossy magazine cover?  I still think masking tape is best and easiest.  Haven't tried it but I'd still bet it's an effective barrier.  And I think it will provide a bit more "grip" than other options mentioned.

Of course, you can use masking tape to tape on another option.  Reliable barrier + grippiness.    :thumb:

Quote from: toobluvr on March 26, 2021, 01:54:58 PM
I really don't think there's any reason to overthink it, or go to any great effort, or even leave the house to procure anything.

Any paper around the house will work.  Wax paper?  Notebook paper?  A glossy magazine cover?  I still think masking tape is best and easiest.  Haven't tried it but I'd still bet it's an effective barrier.  And I think it will provide a bit more "grip" than other options mentioned.

Of course, you can use masking tape to tape on another option.  Reliable barrier + grippiness.    :thumb:

Agree about the overthinking part. I'm just open to various suggestions as I haven't delved deeply into vibration control and acoustic treatments before. But my system is quite revealing nowadays, so that adds to my curiosity.

Here's the best advice ... don;t think any one solution will work everywhere and don;t think someone else's solution will work best for you.

Get something squishy, like those foam tennis balls, and cut them in half.

Then get something roller-blocky.

Then get some hard wood blocks.

Then get something pointy.

Try each under only "1" component (I suggest starting with the source component) and see what sounds best. Then, leave that there and try each under another component and leave the best one there. etc.

Then when you think you have it, go back and try each under that first source component again and see if your results are different. I bet they will be. It's all about tuning with footers.

Quote from: BobM on March 27, 2021, 08:43:36 AM
Here's the best advice ... don;t think any one solution will work everywhere and don;t think someone else's solution will work best for you.

Get something squishy, like those foam tennis balls, and cut them in half.

Then get something roller-blocky.

Then get some hard wood blocks.

Then get something pointy.

Try each under only "1" component (I suggest starting with the source component) and see what sounds best. Then, leave that there and try each under another component and leave the best one there. etc.

Then when you think you have it, go back and try each under that first source component again and see if your results are different. I bet they will be. It's all about tuning with footers.

Bob, you guys are making me think too much  :lol: I was hoping to be able to use some general rules of thumb when doing this. But I imagine different resonances might be generated by the types of chassis metal that were used, transformers etc.

UPS tracking tells me the vibration pads are getting very close to being here...

Just got the EVA pads (with the blue centers). These things really stink... put  them outside immediately

Quote from: Nick B on March 29, 2021, 03:25:10 PM
Just got the EVA pads (with the blue centers). These things really stink... put  them outside immediately

Real rubber is definitely stinky, think about your garage after you get new tires. A few days out in open air should help, I'd recommend keeping them out of direct sunlight though, UV can do a number on rubber.

These EVA pads aren't outgassing well at all. They're still outside. So if somebody wants 25 of them, all you need to do is pay me for shipping. Standard USPS I'm guessing would be $4-5

I put the EVAs in baggies to keep the smell out of the house and just to test them out. They are under all the components, but not the speakers. The speakers slide around a little too much on them and that makes me a bit nervous. The speaker stands aren't completely level either. I know the concrete slab isn't level as we had engineered flooring put on it a few years ago.

I fired things up early at 7:30 local time, which I really never do. System is cold and used the music that was open on Roon. Didn't expect much, but sure sounds like better detail retrieval and better timbre. I don't much like playing reference cuts etc. Will leave that to the reviewers. I prefer just playing music and getting a feel for any possible changes.

I'll keep you posted 🎶🎶
Nick

Nick

Your safest bets under the Carrera's would be the Mini Pucks or cheaper and just as good the Herbies Fat Dots.  I just compared both under a pair of Harbeth C7's and didn't hear a real difference and in terms of height for my chair the Herbie's were better.

Quote from: Jack on March 31, 2021, 07:19:08 PM
Nick

Your safest bets under the Carrera's would be the Mini Pucks or cheaper and just as good the Herbies Fat Dots.  I just compared both under a pair of Harbeth C7's and didn't hear a real difference and in terms of height for my chair the Herbie's were better.

Jack,

I've saved the various links, but can't find the Mini Pucks yet. I am going to keep listening to the baggy-encased EVAs. I sure like what I am hearing so far. If true, I'm amazed how cheapie little things like this can improve the sound. I think it was toobluvr who suggested these with the smelly blue center and then Dave the ones with the cork centers. I sure want to be super careful with outgassing. I went through all the sensitivity issues in the 80s....not pleasant.

Nick

Nick

Here you go but you can also buy them direct from Crutchfield, Audio Advisor, and most the pro audio places like Sweetwater and Musicians Friend.

https://www.amazon.com/IsoAcoustics-ISO-PUCK-mini-Vibration-Isolators/dp/B07V25PWQL/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3R9KUHAKDD9EA&dchild=1&keywords=isoacoustics+mini+pucks&qid=1617247691&sprefix=Iso+acoustics+mi%2Caps%2C198&sr=8-1

I think I've got dozens of the cork ones laying around.  If you want I can send you some when I get back to Florida the middle of April.

Quote from: Jack on March 31, 2021, 08:32:10 PM
Nick

Here you go but you can also buy them direct from Crutchfield, Audio Advisor, and most the pro audio places like Sweetwater and Musicians Friend.

https://www.amazon.com/IsoAcoustics-ISO-PUCK-mini-Vibration-Isolators/dp/B07V25PWQL/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3R9KUHAKDD9EA&dchild=1&keywords=isoacoustics+mini+pucks&qid=1617247691&sprefix=Iso+acoustics+mi%2Caps%2C198&sr=8-1

I think I've got dozens of the cork ones laying around.  If you want I can send you some when I get back to Florida the middle of April.

Thanks, Jack. Much appreciated. Imo, that's a very reasonable price for the product of a respected company. I have an account with AA. I may take you up on the cork offer.

Well, everything is warmed up and these stinky, el cheapo EVA vibration pads are a very, very pleasant surprise (cost me $11.89 or so) Basically, three things jump out at me:

1) improved clarity
2) improved timbre
3) less harshness!!

The changes aren't subtle...at least in my system. The beauty of such an inexpensive tweak is how it allows the equipment to shine. I will be getting either the Herbies or the Iso puck Minis for the speakers.

After trying something as simple as this, it saddens me there is sometimes such negativity that cables, power cords, anti-vibration devices etc can possibly make a difference. Just because some of these guys can't hear it or their system isn't yet capable of producing it....

Quote from: Jack on March 31, 2021, 07:19:08 PM
Nick

Your safest bets under the Carrera's would be the Mini Pucks or cheaper and just as good the Herbies Fat Dots.  I just compared both under a pair of Harbeth C7's and didn't hear a real difference and in terms of height for my chair the Herbie's were better.

Jack,

I'm going to order the Herbies, but specifically which fat dot for the Fritzies? And 5 on each side? It's late and I'm a bit tired. Thanks for your help.

Nick

I've used the small fat dot and the square fat dot with monitors and didn't hear a difference so either one will work.  Four per speaker should be enough.

Quote from: Jack on April 01, 2021, 07:51:45 AM
Nick

I've used the small fat dot and the square fat dot with monitors and didn't hear a difference so either one will work.  Four per speaker should be enough.

Jack,

Ok, will order. My question wasn't really toward how it sounds, rather what size is better for the Fritzies and the typically small platform on my B & W stands.

I also see there's an option for no adhesive, adhesive on one side or adhesive on both sides. Your suggestion on that pls. There are no kids in the house and my cat has never tried to jump on the speakers...

Thx, Nick

Nick

The Small Fat Dots will do find and I don't bother with the adhesive.

Searching around Amazon I found these, talk about "Audiophile Markup"  :rofl:
https://www.amazon.com/Turntable-Equipment-Tuneful-Cables-Audiophile/dp/B076DGD3X2/

And there really are many alternatives...
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Silicone+Feet+Isolation+for+Audio&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss

They really are quite stinky.   I bought a whole box and the smell was fairly strong when in the room.  It probably could have been reduced by storing the unused ones in garage....but I didn't.

Smell did linger for quite awhile, but I did nothing to reduce it before using them -- no airing out, no fan blowing on them.  But have faith, it does disappear.   Just can't remember how long it took as I bought mine years ago.  Can still smell it if you sniff them, but odor doesn't hang in the room.

Quote from: Jack on April 01, 2021, 08:43:11 AM
Nick

The Small Fat Dots will do find and I don't bother with the adhesive.

Thanks, Jack

Quote from: Barry (NJ) on April 01, 2021, 08:46:46 AM
Searching around Amazon I found these, talk about "Audiophile Markup"  :rofl:
https://www.amazon.com/Turntable-Equipment-Tuneful-Cables-Audiophile/dp/B076DGD3X2/

And there really are many alternatives...
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Silicone+Feet+Isolation+for+Audio&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss

Thanks, Barry,
Umm... I thought if it's more expensive, it has to be better  :lol:
Nick

Quote from: toobluvr on April 01, 2021, 09:28:29 AM
They really are quite stinky.   I bought a whole box and the smell was fairly strong when in the room.  It probably could have been reduced by storing the unused ones in garage....but I didn't.

Smell did linger for quite awhile, but I did nothing to reduce it before using them -- no airing out, no fan blowing on them.  But have faith, it does disappear.   Just can't remember how long it took as I bought mine years ago.  Can still smell it if you sniff them, but odor doesn't hang in the room.

I just took another whiff, and the outside batch hasn't improved much. I really can't tell if it's the hard rubber or the blue middle that is the odorous part. When my buddy brought over the cork ones a few years ago, I didn't notice any smell problem at all.

Just ordered Herbies Small Fat Dots. Very reasonable $37

Maybe scrub them with a stiff brush in hot super soapy water?

Experiment on a couple.   Worth a shot.   

Quote from: Nick B on April 01, 2021, 10:20:36 AM

Quote from: toobluvr on April 01, 2021, 09:28:29 AM
They really are quite stinky.   I bought a whole box and the smell was fairly strong when in the room.  It probably could have been reduced by storing the unused ones in garage....but I didn't.

Smell did linger for quite awhile, but I did nothing to reduce it before using them -- no airing out, no fan blowing on them.  But have faith, it does disappear.   Just can't remember how long it took as I bought mine years ago.  Can still smell it if you sniff them, but odor doesn't hang in the room.

I just took another whiff, and the outside batch hasn't improved much. I really can't tell if it's the hard rubber or the blue middle that is the odorous part. When my buddy brought over the cork ones a few years ago, I didn't notice any smell problem at all.

It's the blue part the cork and rubber parts don't smell. 

Quote from: Jack on April 01, 2021, 11:55:02 AM
[
It's the blue part the cork and rubber parts don't smell.

Not sure about that.  Mine are several years old and well aired-out such that they don't stink up the room anymore.

When I sniff the ridged black rubber part, it stinks.  When I sniff the flat blue part on the side, no smell.

Quote from: toobluvr on April 01, 2021, 02:42:19 PM

Quote from: Jack on April 01, 2021, 11:55:02 AM
[
It's the blue part the cork and rubber parts don't smell.

Not sure about that.  Mine are several years old and well aired-out such that they don't stink up the room anymore.

When I sniff the ridged black rubber part, it stinks.  When I sniff the flat blue part on the side, no smell.

Just got home and I'm about to scrub one down as you suggested

Doubt it's gonna work, but worth a shot..... nothing to lose.

Good Luck!    :thumb:

Quote from: toobluvr on April 01, 2021, 04:20:35 PM
Doubt it's gonna work, but worth a shot..... nothing to lose.

Good Luck!    :thumb:

I was hoping it would be the smell of a mold release substance, but not so. Anyway, was worth a try. And you are right...it is the black rubber part, not the blue, that smells

Herbie's dots arrived today. Will put under the speakers later tonight  :thumb:

The Herbie's Fat Dots are in place under the speakers and I'll fire things up in a few hours. I did want to get suggestions on a couple more things.

I like my Pangea rack and the legs are cone shaped at the bottom and have the factory supplied hard wood protectant cups. Has anyone used the Herbie's Cone/Spike Puckies on their rack? These Puckies are available in brass, stainless steel and titanium. Titanium is an extra $28 for 4. Would I really hear a difference between those materials? Don't know if it's necessary to venture into that rabbit hole, but am open to it...

Also, my B & W speaker stands currently have threaded rods with a white rubber cap to protect the floor. Would it be a good idea to use threaded spikes and then use the same Puckies for this application? Herbie's also makes available an extra thick version of the Puckies

Nick

Well, even with things cold, the improvement is so very, very nice 👍🎶🎶
Quite a significant improvement in resolution. Love that improved texture  :thumb:
These are songs I'm exceedingly familiar with and there are multiple elements that are popping out at me. Not sure how to describe it, but there are multiple "sub-layers" of information appearing. Quite stunning, really. To think, it would have been so easy to chase after "better", more expensive gear rather than just allowing the best to appear from what I have.

I'm looking forward to completing the rest so I can start with basic room treatments.
I'm reevaluating my opinion now on the quality of those early A/D transfers   :roll:

Quote from: Nick B on April 06, 2021, 07:35:43 PM
Well, even with things cold, the improvement is so very, very nice 👍🎶🎶
Quite a significant improvement in resolution. Love that improved texture  :thumb:
These are songs I'm exceedingly familiar with and there are multiple elements that are popping out at me. Not sure how to describe it, but there are multiple "sub-layers" of information appearing. Quite stunning, really. To think, it would have been so easy to chase after "better", more expensive gear rather than just allowing the best to appear from what I have.

I'm looking forward to completing the rest so I can start with basic room treatments.
I'm reevaluating my opinion now on the quality of those early A/D transfers   :roll:

Welcome to my world of Tweakdom (or Tweakdumb).

Changes like you have made, experienced and benefitted from are the crux of AudioNervosa.  It is all of those little incremental changes that bring the magic.

A few years ago I got into a relatively "lively" discussion on another forum about very small changes.  He was arguing that tiny differences weren't worth the effort.  My reply was that if I made a tweak that got 1% closer to "there", it was absolutely worth it.  He said it was stupid to chase 1%.  My answer was, maybe, but do that 10 times and tell me it was wasted effort.

Now, try mass loading your front end components.  I'm not sure what they may be, but try using a soft layer on top of your digital source and then stack about 10lbs of weight on top of that and report back...

Quote from: P.I. on April 06, 2021, 10:19:12 PM

Quote from: Nick B on April 06, 2021, 07:35:43 PM
Well, even with things cold, the improvement is so very, very nice 👍🎶🎶
Quite a significant improvement in resolution. Love that improved texture  :thumb:
These are songs I'm exceedingly familiar with and there are multiple elements that are popping out at me. Not sure how to describe it, but there are multiple "sub-layers" of information appearing. Quite stunning, really. To think, it would have been so easy to chase after "better", more expensive gear rather than just allowing the best to appear from what I have.

I'm looking forward to completing the rest so I can start with basic room treatments.
I'm reevaluating my opinion now on the quality of those early A/D transfers   :roll:

Welcome to my world of Tweakdom (or Tweakdumb).

Changes like you have made, experienced and benefitted from are the crux of AudioNervosa.  It is all of those little incremental changes that bring the magic.

A few years ago I got into a relatively "lively" discussion on another forum about very small changes.  He was arguing that tiny differences weren't worth the effort.  My reply was that if I made a tweak that got 1% closer to "there", it was absolutely worth it.  He said it was stupid to chase 1%.  My answer was, maybe, but for that 10 times and tell me it was wasted effort.

Now, try mass loading your front end components.  I'm not sure what they may be, but try using a soft layer on top of your digital source and then stack about 10lbs of weight on top of that and report back...

I like the pursuit of the 1% x many tweaks. The beauty of this is these items from Herbie's are reasonably priced and the stinky, baggy enclosed EVAs that toobluvr recommended are so cheap. Jack is kindly sending me some extra non-smelly cork ones that he has. The improvement I heard today from Herbie's fat dots was quite a bit above 1%  I just stream digital, so I'll start with my BP DAC and advise. I also use a tiny Auralic Mini streamer with a dedicated power supply from Mojo Audio, who I think is in your NM area

Oh, I should add that adding the weight to the BP will be more interesting in that designer Gary Dews uses a copper chassis as he feels it provides improved sound. He may have some vibration control built in already...

Quote from: P.I. on April 06, 2021, 10:19:12 PM

Quote from: Nick B on April 06, 2021, 07:35:43 PM
Well, even with things cold, the improvement is so very, very nice 👍🎶🎶
Quite a significant improvement in resolution. Love that improved texture  :thumb:
These are songs I'm exceedingly familiar with and there are multiple elements that are popping out at me. Not sure how to describe it, but there are multiple "sub-layers" of information appearing. Quite stunning, really. To think, it would have been so easy to chase after "better", more expensive gear rather than just allowing the best to appear from what I have.

I'm looking forward to completing the rest so I can start with basic room treatments.
I'm reevaluating my opinion now on the quality of those early A/D transfers   :roll:

Welcome to my world of Tweakdom (or Tweakdumb).

Changes like you have made, experienced and benefitted from are the crux of AudioNervosa.  It is all of those little incremental changes that bring the magic.

A few years ago I got into a relatively "lively" discussion on another forum about very small changes.  He was arguing that tiny differences weren't worth the effort.  My reply was that if I made a tweak that got 1% closer to "there", it was absolutely worth it.  He said it was stupid to chase 1%.  My answer was, maybe, but do that 10 times and tell me it was wasted effort.

Now, try mass loading your front end components.  I'm not sure what they may be, but try using a soft layer on top of your digital source and then stack about 10lbs of weight on top of that and report back...

And more times than not the guy who is arguing with you about how stupid it is to spend $500 on tweaks to chase the last 1% is the same guy who just spent $5k to replace an amp he had for less than six months  and bragged at that price it was a bargain because of how much better it sounds.   :roll:

Quote from: tmazz on April 06, 2021, 10:59:06 PM

Quote from: P.I. on April 06, 2021, 10:19:12 PM

Quote from: Nick B on April 06, 2021, 07:35:43 PM
Well, even with things cold, the improvement is so very, very nice 👍🎶🎶
Quite a significant improvement in resolution. Love that improved texture  :thumb:
These are songs I'm exceedingly familiar with and there are multiple elements that are popping out at me. Not sure how to describe it, but there are multiple "sub-layers" of information appearing. Quite stunning, really. To think, it would have been so easy to chase after "better", more expensive gear rather than just allowing the best to appear from what I have.

I'm looking forward to completing the rest so I can start with basic room treatments.
I'm reevaluating my opinion now on the quality of those early A/D transfers   :roll:

Welcome to my world of Tweakdom (or Tweakdumb).

Changes like you have made, experienced and benefitted from are the crux of AudioNervosa.  It is all of those little incremental changes that bring the magic.

A few years ago I got into a relatively "lively" discussion on another forum about very small changes.  He was arguing that tiny differences weren't worth the effort.  My reply was that if I made a tweak that got 1% closer to "there", it was absolutely worth it.  He said it was stupid to chase 1%.  My answer was, maybe, but do that 10 times and tell me it was wasted effort.

Now, try mass loading your front end components.  I'm not sure what they may be, but try using a soft layer on top of your digital source and then stack about 10lbs of weight on top of that and report back...

And more times than not the guy who is arguing with you about how stupid it is to spend $500 on tweaks to chase the last 1% is the same guy who just spent $5k to replace an amp he had for less than six months  and bragged at that price it was a bargain because of how much better it sounds.   :roll:

:thumb: :rofl:

Quote from: P.I. on April 06, 2021, 10:19:12 PM

Quote from: Nick B on April 06, 2021, 07:35:43 PM
Well, even with things cold, the improvement is so very, very nice 👍🎶🎶
Quite a significant improvement in resolution. Love that improved texture  :thumb:
These are songs I'm exceedingly familiar with and there are multiple elements that are popping out at me. Not sure how to describe it, but there are multiple "sub-layers" of information appearing. Quite stunning, really. To think, it would have been so easy to chase after "better", more expensive gear rather than just allowing the best to appear from what I have.

I'm looking forward to completing the rest so I can start with basic room treatments.
I'm reevaluating my opinion now on the quality of those early A/D transfers   :roll:

Welcome to my world of Tweakdom (or Tweakdumb).

Changes like you have made, experienced and benefitted from are the crux of AudioNervosa.  It is all of those little incremental changes that bring the magic.

A few years ago I got into a relatively "lively" discussion on another forum about very small changes.  He was arguing that tiny differences weren't worth the effort.  My reply was that if I made a tweak that got 1% closer to "there", it was absolutely worth it.  He said it was stupid to chase 1%.  My answer was, maybe, but do that 10 times and tell me it was wasted effort.

Now, try mass loading your front end components.  I'm not sure what they may be, but try using a soft layer on top of your digital source and then stack about 10lbs of weight on top of that and report back...

Dave,

I just use the small Border Patrol DAC..no player. I tried a big book and it's not heavy enough. What is cheap and heavier that I can try? The DAC is on the middle shelf on the rack and I have a little room to play with, but certainly not a foot.
Ideas pls? Anyone?

Nick

Does the DAC have any ventilation holes on the top? If so mass loading can get tricky as you would not want to block the vents and risk overheating.

If not I would just start with a cheap and simple first attempt and try putting a brick on top with some kind of felt or cloth under it to prevent any scratches. If you don't have a brick laying around you can get one at Lowe's for under a buck. If it helps you could always try some other "audiophile" loading solutions. But for my first time out of the box I would stick to cheap and simple.

Quote from: tmazz on April 09, 2021, 10:47:37 PM
Does the DAC have any ventilation holes on the top? If so mass loading can get tricky as you would not want to block the vents and risk overheating.

If not I would just start with a cheap and simple first attempt and try putting a brick on top with some kind of felt or cloth under it to prevent any scratches. If you don't have a brick laying around you can get one at Lowe's for under a buck. If it helps you could always try some other "audiophile" loading solutions. But for my first time out of the box I would stick to cheap and simple.

No vent holes to worry about. The Border Patrol does have an opening at the top for the EZ 80 (rectifier tube?) which I engage, but it hardly produces any heat. I thought about a brick, but I'm guessing it's maybe 3 lbs, but a start nonetheless. Will use a cloth or felt. I was trying to follow Professor Dave's instructions to use 10 lbs.

The whole point to adding mass to the top of any case is to reduce vibrations from the somewhat flimsy case metal. You could also do that by placing some sticky damping materiel inside the case itself, under the cover and under the circuit board on the bottom, if there is room. I just wouldn't do this if there is heat being generated. You may find some room for that away from the tube but definitely use something that won't scorch or melt.

Quote from: BobM on April 10, 2021, 04:59:47 AM
The whole point to adding mass to the top of any case is to reduce vibrations from the somewhat flimsy case metal. You could also do that by placing some sticky damping materiel inside the case itself, under the cover and under the circuit board on the bottom, if there is room. I just wouldn't do this if there is heat being generated. You may find some room for that away from the tube but definitely use something that won't scorch or melt.

Bob,
I appreciate your input. I did that on a few items years ago. Don't have the damping material any more. My Border Patrol dac is very solid and heavy for a small unit. It has a copper chassis as I understand it.
If I were knowledgeable enough and/or inclined to do so, it would be interesting to measure the effect of simple weighting vs using a damping material. The unit generates very little heat

http://www.borderpatrol.net/images/DAC%20Pics/DAC-Wht-Tab-350%20Col%20Adj.jpg

Just found part of this interview that applies here...
Doug Schroeder: The DAC SE uses copper for chassis. Why?

Gary Dews: The use of copper for the casework was a spin-off from the Border Patrol amplifier designs. Early BorderPatrol amps were made with steel and aluminium chassis. There was a noticeable difference in sound between the two. Steel imparted a glare and grainy character to the sound. Aluminium, by comparison, sounded lighter, freer and airier but was also somewhat frenetic and unruly by comparison. I was lucky enough to hear amplifiers made by Audio Note Japan and to meet the legendary late Mr. Kondo several times. We discussed amplifier design and I asked him why he used copper for the chassis of his amplifiers. He told me it was not for looks and that copper sounded better than steel and aluminium. He spoke about calmness, tone colour, the quietness of background, noise floor (audible, not measurable) and freedom from grain. I had a copper chassis made for my amplifier and the difference was clear. When I realized I could use copper casework for the DAC and still make it relatively affordable it seemed like an obvious thing to do. Anyone that thinks the chassis material does not play a part in the sound of a product hasn't done the work.

Truth.

There is a reason why the things I build are not in metal enclosures.  The fact that they are double insulated plays only a minor role.  I did the work.

Quote from: P.I. on April 11, 2021, 09:13:15 AM
Truth.

There is a reason why the things I build are not in metal enclosures.  The fact that they are double insulated plays only a minor role.  I did the work.

Ah, nice to get your take on this, Dave  :thumb:

I called Herbie's today and discussed what they'd recommend for under my B & W speaker stands and under my Pangea rack. Seems the cone/spike decoupling gliders and the fat grounding bases might be the way to go. Will likely order soon. Once that's done, I'll move on to simple acoustic treatments.


https://herbiesaudiolab.com/products/cone-spike-decoupling-glider?variant=12645103403063

https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/loudspeaker-rack-decoupling-and-isolation/products/fat-grounding-base

Has anyone ever used springs for any resonance applications?

https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Aluminum-Speakers-Isolation-Amplifiers/dp/B07K9ZYP84

Springs can be tricky because the have resonance points of their own and and as such can actually end up introducing vibrations into the system. Also when used under a component that already has some kind of spring suspension in it the new springs can combine with the existing springs and shift a spring resonance that was carefully tuned in the original product to occur at a specific frequency where it is not a problem  move the resonance point of the new spring combination back into a spot where it will cause audible problems.

I would also never think about putting a spring product under any kind of speaker. Speaker cabinets and the face that the drivers are mounted on should always be as stiff as possible with the goal of keeping the driver frame as motionless as possible so that the only thing moving at all is the cone in reaction to the signal being fed to it.  Any movement of the driver or the whole cabinet will cause distortion because the movement of the frame will be added to the displacement of the cone by the input so the physical movement of the cone will therefor never be a match to the input signal.

In my CS-6s, Jim Theil formed the front face of the cabinet out of reinforced poured concrete to insure that the drivers were held solidly during operation. 165 lbs later there was no movement in those drivers.

Guys, thanks for the input. Doug, I'm going through life solo nowadays and my cat behaves well around my audio system, so no worries of anything getting knocked over :) I was wondering though if this ISO product acted more like a spring than the Herbie's small fat dots that I just installed. This ISO product has always intrigued me, but I've never known anyone who's owned them.


https://isoacoustics.com/products/aperta-series/

Quote from: doug s. on April 13, 2021, 10:43:40 AM
agreed w/below.  i'd also not use springs on stand-mounted speakers because i'd be worried about them being more susceptible to getting knocked over.

also, nobsound sells elsewhere.  i got my wife to cancel her amazon prime membership, and we won't ever shop amazon again. i recommend everyone do the same.  there's other places that you can shop w/o spending a fortune, that are less destructive of the economy and environment. i'm concerned about my kid's, niece's, grand-niece's/nephew's future...

doug s.

Quote from: tmazz on April 13, 2021, 08:00:39 AM
Springs can be tricky because the have resonance points of their own and and as such can actually end up introducing vibrations into the system. Also when used under a component that already has some kind of spring suspension in it the new springs can combine with the existing springs and shift a spring resonance that was carefully tuned in the original product to occur at a specific frequency where it is not a problem  move the resonance point of the new spring combination back into a spot where it will cause audible problems.

I would also never think about putting a spring product under any kind of speaker. Speaker cabinets and the face that the drivers are mounted on should always be as stiff as possible with the goal of keeping the driver frame as motionless as possible so that the only thing moving at all is the cone in reaction to the signal being fed to it.  Any movement of the driver or the whole cabinet will cause distortion because the movement of the frame will be added to the displacement of the cone by the input so the physical movement of the cone will therefor never be a match to the input signal.

In my CS-6s, Jim Theil formed the front face of the cabinet out of reinforced poured concrete to insure that the drivers were held solidly during operation. 165 lbs later there was no movement in those drivers.

The main problem with these would be increasing the listening height. I've got my favorite chair and wouldn't want to have to sit on a couple of pillows. Thankfully I'm not close yet to being a danger to by beloved Fritzies....

Quote from: doug s. on April 13, 2021, 04:07:58 PM
i've heard good things about these, and they'd be on my short-list if i had a specific need they could fill.  afaik, they don't use springs, but i'm certain that if you contacted them, they could tell you exactly what it is that makes them tick.  (or at least enough w/o divulging any "secrets" - ha!)

doug s.

ps - if it were me, i'd be the one i'd worry about, knocking something over.   :mrgreen:

Quote from: Nick B on April 13, 2021, 12:42:25 PM
Guys, thanks for the input. Doug, I'm going through life solo nowadays and my cat behaves well around my audio system, so no worries of anything getting knocked over :) I was wondering though if this ISO product acted more like a spring than the Herbie's small fat dots that I just installed. This ISO product has always intrigued me, but I've never known anyone who's owned them.


https://isoacoustics.com/products/aperta-series/

Quote from: doug s. on April 13, 2021, 10:43:40 AM
agreed w/below.  i'd also not use springs on stand-mounted speakers because i'd be worried about them being more susceptible to getting knocked over.

also, nobsound sells elsewhere.  i got my wife to cancel her amazon prime membership, and we won't ever shop amazon again. i recommend everyone do the same.  there's other places that you can shop w/o spending a fortune, that are less destructive of the economy and environment. i'm concerned about my kid's, niece's, grand-niece's/nephew's future...

doug s.

Quote from: tmazz on April 13, 2021, 08:00:39 AM
Springs can be tricky because the have resonance points of their own and and as such can actually end up introducing vibrations into the system. Also when used under a component that already has some kind of spring suspension in it the new springs can combine with the existing springs and shift a spring resonance that was carefully tuned in the original product to occur at a specific frequency where it is not a problem  move the resonance point of the new spring combination back into a spot where it will cause audible problems.

I would also never think about putting a spring product under any kind of speaker. Speaker cabinets and the face that the drivers are mounted on should always be as stiff as possible with the goal of keeping the driver frame as motionless as possible so that the only thing moving at all is the cone in reaction to the signal being fed to it.  Any movement of the driver or the whole cabinet will cause distortion because the movement of the frame will be added to the displacement of the cone by the input so the physical movement of the cone will therefor never be a match to the input signal.

In my CS-6s, Jim Theil formed the front face of the cabinet out of reinforced poured concrete to insure that the drivers were held solidly during operation. 165 lbs later there was no movement in those drivers.

I did order the Fat Ground Bases for my Pangea rack and also the brass Cone/Spike Puckies for my speaker stands. Herbie's shipped quickly last time so I should have them this week...

Today I received and installed Herbie's Fat Grounding Bases under my Pangea rack. It was a little tricky, but not that bad. Fortunately, the amp and preamp only weigh about 55 lbs total. The Pangea rack was originally easily assembled and I simply had hand tightened everything. Tonight I noticed that I could tighten the pillars a bit more. There are plastic spacers between each shelf and I guess they had compressed a bit. Sure am glad I checked!

I had mentioned to a member here that I really didn't expect much improvement with  these Herbie's Bases under my rack. I am so happy to be quite wrong! What struck me was such a nice improvement in tonality...texture. I really never expected instruments could sound this good with the equipment I have.

I will listen randomly for a day or two...no a/b comparisons for me with these. Then I'll add Herbie's brass Cone/Spike Puckies to my B & W speaker stands.  I am expecting a nice improvement as I can feel the vibration on the speaker stands. I'm not one to add sand or lead shot... too tedious for me and simple = good. Will report further in a few days.

Well, yesterday I was going to install the spikes in my B & W speaker stands and use the Herbie's Cone/Spike Puckies. But the problem is that the spikes I had labeled and saved weren't for the B & Ws, rather my old SP Tech Timepiece 2.1s. Sold those well over a year ago.

I found the exact M6 spikes I was looking for, but they're in the UK. Hope to have them in a few weeks.

Like old Grandma Rosannadanna said, "It's always something.........."

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/14/8d/a1/148da15ade47852b554ce670ea84e993.jpg)

Quote from: tmazz on April 27, 2021, 10:43:07 PM
Like old Grandma Rosannadanna said, "It's always something.........."

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/14/8d/a1/148da15ade47852b554ce670ea84e993.jpg)

Yes, indeed. Gilda was my favorite of that old cast  :thumb:

Quote from: Nick B on April 24, 2021, 10:25:03 PM

I will listen randomly for a day or two...no a/b comparisons for me with these. Then I'll add Herbie's brass Cone/Spike Puckies to my B & W speaker stands.  I am expecting a nice improvement as I can feel the vibration on the speaker stands. I'm not one to add sand or lead shot... too tedious for me and simple = good. Will report further in a few days.

That's a mistake.  If sand filled there'd be no vibration, or significantly reduced.

Tedious boring video here, but check out the ring test at the 11:45 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QO_KF-2Isg&t=4s

You are concerning yourself with tweaks that will bring much less improvement than this one, IMHO.  And if you were consistently following your simple = good mantra, you'd just be plopping your gear down and not adding the spikes and Herbies stuff.

Just sayin'.......

Quote from: toobluvr on April 28, 2021, 07:36:51 AM

Quote from: Nick B on April 24, 2021, 10:25:03 PM

I will listen randomly for a day or two...no a/b comparisons for me with these. Then I'll add Herbie's brass Cone/Spike Puckies to my B & W speaker stands.  I am expecting a nice improvement as I can feel the vibration on the speaker stands. I'm not one to add sand or lead shot... too tedious for me and simple = good. Will report further in a few days.

That's a mistake.  If sand filled there'd be no vibration, or significantly reduced.

Tedious boring video here, but check out the ring test at the 11:45 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QO_KF-2Isg&t=4s

You are concerning yourself with tweaks that will bring much less improvement than this one, IMHO.  And if you were consistently following your simple = good mantra, you'd just be plopping your gear down and not adding the spikes and Herbies stuff.

Just sayin'.......

Well, I won't dispute one word of your advice... Your evo pads sure worked.  The other tweaks have been quite easy to accomplish and the sand filling would certainly be a bit tedious. I did it once before years ago. I'll give it some more thought, though.
Your youtube guy, the trippin gnome,  is quite interesting and I've watched a few more of his videos.

I have also filled stands with sand...several times.  So I agree it's a bit tedious if you feed it in slowly like on the video.  But use a big funnel with a big bottom hole and it's a breeze actually.   Just pour the sand in, takes a few minutes.

Even if SQ does not improve (it will) your columns become much more stable.      :thumb:

Don't have a big funnel to allow quick sand flow?  Just use an empty gallon jug (milk, bleach, etc) and cut off the bottom.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Zx7g3JrhL._AC_SL1000_.jpg)

Quote from: Nick B on April 27, 2021, 10:55:22 PM

Quote from: tmazz on April 27, 2021, 10:43:07 PM
Like old Grandma Rosannadanna said, "It's always something.........."

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/14/8d/a1/148da15ade47852b554ce670ea84e993.jpg)

Yes, indeed. Gilda was my favorite of that old cast  :thumb:

:thumb: :rofl: :thumb:

  The sand filling will give you a solid foundation the Fritz speakers like. We prefer a mixture of lead shot and play sand. A PIA however worth the effort. Then Blu-Tac them to top plate and be happy. As far as roller blocks, Herbies and footers in general one must know if draining, transferring, soaking up is the proper method for said piece of gear. Footers have different ways of working.
I would decouple stand from floor if a suspended wood if concrete spike it baby. If spikes are used we like decoulping speaker from stand ot Blu-Tac them. Need to try each way. Have fun as one effect may not be the same in another set up.

charles

Quote from: toobluvr on April 28, 2021, 10:36:37 AM
I have also filled stands with sand...several times.  So I agree it's a bit tedious if you feed it in slowly like on the video.  But use a big funnel with a big bottom hole and it's a breeze actually.   Just pour the sand in, takes a few minutes.

Even if SQ does not improve (it will) your columns become much more stable.      :thumb:

You are starting to persuade me....  :lol:

Quote from: rollo on April 28, 2021, 11:15:51 AM
  The sand filling will give you a solid foundation the Fritz speakers like. We prefer a mixture of lead shot and play sand. A PIA however worth the effort. Then Blu-Tac them to top plate and be happy. As far as roller blocks, Herbies and footers in general one must know if draining, transferring, soaking up is the proper method for said piece of gear. Footers have different ways of working.
I would decouple stand from floor if a suspended wood if concrete spike it baby. If spikes are used we like decoulping speaker from stand ot Blu-Tac them. Need to try each way. Have fun as one effect may not be the same in another set up.

charles

Charles, Your recommendations to me in the past have been spot on. But there's a point where it's just not worth it to me...like combining lead shot with sand. I'm already using Herbie's fat dots between the stand and the Fritzies. I've discussed some of this with Robert at Herbie's and he's been very helpful. There's a point for me where the experimentation takes the fun out of it. At least, that's my thinking at this time in my life. As I've previously mentioned, I'm getting a level of tonality now that I didn't think would be possible.

IMO, don't worry about mixing shot in with sand! 

I seriously doubt you will hear any difference vs. straight sand, or that anyone can.   :roll: 

Make it easy and cheap on yourself.  Just get the stands solid, don't sweat the super anal superfluous stuff.     :thumb:

Quote from: toobluvr on April 28, 2021, 10:36:37 AM
I have also filled stands with sand...several times.  So I agree it's a bit tedious if you feed it in slowly like on the video.  But use a big funnel with a big bottom hole and it's a breeze actually.   Just pour the sand in, takes a few minutes.

Even if SQ does not improve (it will) your columns become much more stable.      :thumb:

OK, I'm convinced. I realize your advice is for my own good  :lol:   
I'll do it once those M6 spikes arrive.
https://acegif.com/gif-images-of-the-white-flag/

Trying to do this??     :rofl:

(https://acegif.com/wp-content/gifs/white-flag-gif-21.gif)

Quote from: toobluvr on April 28, 2021, 03:42:00 PM

Trying to do this??     :rofl:

(https://acegif.com/wp-content/gifs/white-flag-gif-21.gif)

Yes! I haven't figured out how to post a simple gif here  :roll:

(1)  put cursor on the image.  R click for menu.  Then L click on copy image address

(2)  once in AudioNervosa REPLY dialog box, look above and L click on insert image

(3)  now R click for menu, then L click on paste


done!    :thumb:

Quote from: Nick B on April 28, 2021, 03:44:03 PM

Quote from: toobluvr on April 28, 2021, 03:42:00 PM

Trying to do this??     :rofl:

(https://acegif.com/wp-content/gifs/white-flag-gif-21.gif)

Yes! I haven't figured out how to post a simple gif here  :roll:

You mean like this? That is the same methodology I use when posting album covers in the "what are you listening to now" section. For whatever reason, I wasn't doing that with simple gifs. I was trying to do a copy and paste. Thanks for the simple lesson  :thumb:
(https://acegif.com/wp-content/gifs/white-flag-gif-21.gif)

 :clap:   :clap:

Doug,
Surprisingly, the choices weren't good. I looked at a number of US sites. Either spikes and protective pads together or 3/8" or 1/2" long, then 2" long. The UK ones were just right and cheap too including shipping. They've already shipped as well. I'll do sand. There's a Lowe's and Home Depot close by. I'll make sure that sand is completely dry as well. Have a good sized funnel. I never had the stands completely level before, so I'm going to be diligent doing that. I know the slab isn't level.

Quote from: doug s. on April 28, 2021, 08:30:40 PM
sand is good, and it's easy, re: the funnel method or a cut jug, as described above.

re: m6 spikes, just do a google search on "m6 spikes", and you will come up w/a plethora of sources, likely much faster and less expensive than having to buy from the uk...  or maybe you've already done that?

doug s.

Quote from: Nick B on April 28, 2021, 01:14:57 PM

Quote from: toobluvr on April 28, 2021, 10:36:37 AM
I have also filled stands with sand...several times.  So I agree it's a bit tedious if you feed it in slowly like on the video.  But use a big funnel with a big bottom hole and it's a breeze actually.   Just pour the sand in, takes a few minutes.

Even if SQ does not improve (it will) your columns become much more stable.      :thumb:

OK, I'm convinced. I realize your advice is for my own good  :lol:   
I'll do it once those M6 spikes arrive.
https://acegif.com/gif-images-of-the-white-flag/

Quote from: toobluvr on April 28, 2021, 05:15:04 PM
:clap:   :clap:

Thank you. Seems anything's possible nowadays. Old dog = new tricks  :)

Those M6 speaker stand spikes I ordered recently are somewhere between the UK and here...do expect them any day, really.

To deviate from this thread just a bit and I didn't want to start a new one just for this comment, but I moved my Fritzie speakers away from the wall last night and it was
a nice improvement. Seemed to be a fuller presentation, lovely detail and I love a nice midrange...and there was a bit more depth to the soundstage. I really don't have any record tracks to evaluate soundstage depth, I just played music last night for a few hours and those were my conclusions.

When I've installed the speaker spikes, and the sand in the speaker stands and installed the Herbies cone/spike puckies, then I'll mess with speaker placement a bit more.

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 10:28:34 AM
Those M6 speaker stand spikes I ordered recently are somewhere between the UK and here...do expect them any day, really.

To deviate from this thread just a bit and I didn't want to start a new one just for this comment, but I moved my Fritzie speakers away from the wall last night and it was
a nice improvement. Seemed to be a fuller presentation, lovely detail and I love a nice midrange...and there was a bit more depth to the soundstage. I really don't have any record tracks to evaluate sound stage depth, I just played music last night for a few hours and those were my conclusions.

When I've installed the speaker spikes, and the sand in the speaker stands and installed the Herbies cone/spike puckies, then I'll mess with speaker placement a bit more.

  If I were focus on placement before sand fill and spiking them. Much easier to move around. Been there done that numerous times.


charles

Quote from: rollo on May 11, 2021, 11:11:04 AM

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 10:28:34 AM
Those M6 speaker stand spikes I ordered recently are somewhere between the UK and here...do expect them any day, really.

To deviate from this thread just a bit and I didn't want to start a new one just for this comment, but I moved my Fritzie speakers away from the wall last night and it was
a nice improvement. Seemed to be a fuller presentation, lovely detail and I love a nice midrange...and there was a bit more depth to the soundstage. I really don't have any record tracks to evaluate sound stage depth, I just played music last night for a few hours and those were my conclusions.

When I've installed the speaker spikes, and the sand in the speaker stands and installed the Herbies cone/spike puckies, then I'll mess with speaker placement a bit more.

  If I were focus on placement before sand fill and spiking them. Much easier to move around. Been there done that numerous times.


charles

+1 on getting the placement right before filling the stands!  They can be a real PITA to move when full.

Quote from: P.I. on May 11, 2021, 11:13:16 AM

Quote from: rollo on May 11, 2021, 11:11:04 AM

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 10:28:34 AM
Those M6 speaker stand spikes I ordered recently are somewhere between the UK and here...do expect them any day, really.

To deviate from this thread just a bit and I didn't want to start a new one just for this comment, but I moved my Fritzie speakers away from the wall last night and it was
a nice improvement. Seemed to be a fuller presentation, lovely detail and I love a nice midrange...and there was a bit more depth to the soundstage. I really don't have any record tracks to evaluate sound stage depth, I just played music last night for a few hours and those were my conclusions.

When I've installed the speaker spikes, and the sand in the speaker stands and installed the Herbies cone/spike puckies, then I'll mess with speaker placement a bit more.

  If I were focus on placement before sand fill and spiking them. Much easier to move around. Been there done that numerous times.


charles

+1 on getting the placement right before filling the stands!  They can be a real PITA to move when full.

Well, if you and Charles both emphasize this, that's what I'll do tonight and the next night before I head off on my trip to California.

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: P.I. on May 11, 2021, 11:13:16 AM

Quote from: rollo on May 11, 2021, 11:11:04 AM

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 10:28:34 AM
Those M6 speaker stand spikes I ordered recently are somewhere between the UK and here...do expect them any day, really.

To deviate from this thread just a bit and I didn't want to start a new one just for this comment, but I moved my Fritzie speakers away from the wall last night and it was
a nice improvement. Seemed to be a fuller presentation, lovely detail and I love a nice midrange...and there was a bit more depth to the soundstage. I really don't have any record tracks to evaluate sound stage depth, I just played music last night for a few hours and those were my conclusions.

When I've installed the speaker spikes, and the sand in the speaker stands and installed the Herbies cone/spike puckies, then I'll mess with speaker placement a bit more.

  If I were focus on placement before sand fill and spiking them. Much easier to move around. Been there done that numerous times.


charles

+1 on getting the placement right before filling the stands!  They can be a real PITA to move when full.

Well, if you and Charles both emphasize this, that's what I'll do tonight and the next night before I head off on my trip to California.

  Have fun. Enjoy your trip.

charles

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: P.I. on May 11, 2021, 11:13:16 AM

Quote from: rollo on May 11, 2021, 11:11:04 AM

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 10:28:34 AM
Those M6 speaker stand spikes I ordered recently are somewhere between the UK and here...do expect them any day, really.

To deviate from this thread just a bit and I didn't want to start a new one just for this comment, but I moved my Fritzie speakers away from the wall last night and it was
a nice improvement. Seemed to be a fuller presentation, lovely detail and I love a nice midrange...and there was a bit more depth to the soundstage. I really don't have any record tracks to evaluate sound stage depth, I just played music last night for a few hours and those were my conclusions.

When I've installed the speaker spikes, and the sand in the speaker stands and installed the Herbies cone/spike puckies, then I'll mess with speaker placement a bit more.

  If I were focus on placement before sand fill and spiking them. Much easier to move around. Been there done that numerous times.


charles

+1 on getting the placement right before filling the stands!  They can be a real PITA to move when full.

Well, if you and Charles both emphasize this, that's what I'll do tonight and the next night before I head off on my trip to California.

Yep, don't be afraid to try things Nick. The other night I was at Dan's in Mt. Pulaski and we lowered his speakers just a little and the lower ranges boosted very nicely. (His 2nd system was a little thin.)

Farther from the front wall, more depth. Separation between speakers affects the mids, width. Be careful of a middle "hole" though.

Cheers and good things Nick.

steve

Quote from: steve on May 18, 2021, 01:14:00 PM

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 11:41:40 AM

Quote from: P.I. on May 11, 2021, 11:13:16 AM

Quote from: rollo on May 11, 2021, 11:11:04 AM

Quote from: Nick B on May 11, 2021, 10:28:34 AM
Those M6 speaker stand spikes I ordered recently are somewhere between the UK and here...do expect them any day, really.

To deviate from this thread just a bit and I didn't want to start a new one just for this comment, but I moved my Fritzie speakers away from the wall last night and it was
a nice improvement. Seemed to be a fuller presentation, lovely detail and I love a nice midrange...and there was a bit more depth to the soundstage. I really don't have any record tracks to evaluate sound stage depth, I just played music last night for a few hours and those were my conclusions.

When I've installed the speaker spikes, and the sand in the speaker stands and installed the Herbies cone/spike puckies, then I'll mess with speaker placement a bit more.

  If I were focus on placement before sand fill and spiking them. Much easier to move around. Been there done that numerous times.


charles

+1 on getting the placement right before filling the stands!  They can be a real PITA to move when full.

Well, if you and Charles both emphasize this, that's what I'll do tonight and the next night before I head off on my trip to California.

Yep, don't be afraid to try things Nick. The other night I was at Dan's in Mt. Pulaski and we lowered his speakers just a little and the lower ranges boosted very nicely. (His 2nd system was a little thin.)

Farther from the front wall, more depth. Separation between speakers affects the mids, width. Be careful of a middle "hole" though.

Cheers and good things Nick.

steve

Hi Steve,
I'm still in California, but heading home tomorrow. Sure have missed my music! 🎶🎶 I need to still work on placement. I would think my m6 spikes have been delivered and once placement is dialed in, I'll fill the stands with sand (thanks toobluvr... :)

Well, am taking a brief break in between projects. Decided to install the m6 spikes from the UK (what a nice deal) and put them onto the Herbie's cone/spike puckies. Fired things up mid day, (system cold) which I rarely do. What a nice improvement. Improved resolution of instrument timbre, of individual voices within a chorus, cleaner bass. This is just playing a few songs I'm familiar with.

I'll listen a little more, then back to projects. Oh, this is without sand. Just didn't want to get to it yet. The speaker stand top plate has 4 bolts, so it should be pretty simple to do.

Finally got around to buying playground sand. Nice and clean. Opened up the bag and have some in a bucket ready to go for tomorrow for the speaker stands.

Quote from: Nick B on March 17, 2021, 11:29:13 PM
I saw a featured system at Agon and the owner used various footers including Eden Sound Terra Stone bearings and a guy who posted a comment said that he could elicit quite a change by simply changing the bearing materials on diy roller blocks. His wife could easily note the improvement.

What do diy roller blocks look like? Anyone tried this and used different materials? My setup is sounding so nice nowadays that isolation tweaks are absolutely worth a try. My rack is a Pangea, which is nicely built and quite sturdy. I see videos of them being used at shows. The shelves, however, are not isolated from each other.

I was looking at some ISO Gaia's, but they're a little pricey and I have 5 components that might benefit from resonance control. Was also at Herbie's. Anyone used any of his stuff?

Would appreciate any thoughts/experiences.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I have some blocks that use steel balls, and the type of steel ball material makes a sonic difference in my system as well. I don't use them anymore, completely switched to isolation, and now use 12" bicycle inner tubes that are partially blown up. Walmart has them for ~$5.00 each. 

Cheers

steve

Quote from: steve on July 01, 2021, 02:23:05 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 17, 2021, 11:29:13 PM
I saw a featured system at Agon and the owner used various footers including Eden Sound Terra Stone bearings and a guy who posted a comment said that he could elicit quite a change by simply changing the bearing materials on diy roller blocks. His wife could easily note the improvement.

What do diy roller blocks look like? Anyone tried this and used different materials? My setup is sounding so nice nowadays that isolation tweaks are absolutely worth a try. My rack is a Pangea, which is nicely built and quite sturdy. I see videos of them being used at shows. The shelves, however, are not isolated from each other.

I was looking at some ISO Gaia's, but they're a little pricey and I have 5 components that might benefit from resonance control. Was also at Herbie's. Anyone used any of his stuff?

Would appreciate any thoughts/experiences.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I have some blocks that use steel balls, and the type of steel ball material makes a sonic difference in my system as well. I don't use them anymore, completely switched to isolation, and now use 12" bicycle inner tubes that are partially blown up. Walmart has them for ~$5.00 each. 

Cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

One of the guys here sent me round mdf? discs with steel balls. I haven't tried using them yet. On my to do list... As to the bicycle tubes, that's an interesting idea and I don't think any of the other guys here have mentioned that. It would quite fun to try.

Nick

Nick

According to George, the machinist and AudioShark member, who made those Iso Pods that is some type of composite material but not MDF.  We could never get him to disclose the exact formula or the source of the material.

Quote from: Jack on July 01, 2021, 05:49:46 PM
Nick

According to George, the machinist and AudioShark member, who made those Iso Pods that is some type of composite material but not MDF.  We could never get him to disclose the exact formula or the source of the material.

Ok, Jack... a secret material. I will be curious if I detect any difference from the inexpensive pads I have. I am a little tempted to buy some tiny tungsten ball bearings  from Amazon.

George owned a precision machine shop in Tampa at the time and I think he considered trying to sell them commercially on Amazon or Ebay so wouldn't disclose the material makeup.  I suspect it was something he got from another client who was using the material for a different application. This is the supplied bearings, G25 Precision Chromium Chrome Steel Bearing Balls AISI 52100.  He talked about trying the ceramic ones but never said if he did or not as he sold the shop and retired and bought a very large bus style motorhome a short time later.  Other than the trick of placement if you are doing it on you own they seem to work the same at the Rollerblock Jr.'s I have.

Bigger bearings are better. I am using 10mm tungsten carbide bearings from
McMaster-Carr. 10mm balls are about $10 and 12mm are $15 I went cheap.
Scotty

Was cleaning out the garage last week and found some 3/4" thick foam sheets and may cut those into small pieces and try that as well. Before doing that, I'd like to buy the low noise 19v power supply for my asus router, but the eBay seller wants too much money for it imo. Guess I could just make an offer...

Quote from: steve on July 01, 2021, 02:23:05 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 17, 2021, 11:29:13 PM
I saw a featured system at Agon and the owner used various footers including Eden Sound Terra Stone bearings and a guy who posted a comment said that he could elicit quite a change by simply changing the bearing materials on diy roller blocks. His wife could easily note the improvement.

What do diy roller blocks look like? Anyone tried this and used different materials? My setup is sounding so nice nowadays that isolation tweaks are absolutely worth a try. My rack is a Pangea, which is nicely built and quite sturdy. I see videos of them being used at shows. The shelves, however, are not isolated from each other.

I was looking at some ISO Gaia's, but they're a little pricey and I have 5 components that might benefit from resonance control. Was also at Herbie's. Anyone used any of his stuff?

Would appreciate any thoughts/experiences.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I have some blocks that use steel balls, and the type of steel ball material makes a sonic difference in my system as well. I don't use them anymore, completely switched to isolation, and now use 12" bicycle inner tubes that are partially blown up. Walmart has them for ~$5.00 each. 

Cheers

steve

I know several guys who have had success using bicycle tubes, but you have to be careful about how the weight is distributed in the component you are using them with. If it is a fairly light unit or the load is evenly distributed across the case you will have no problems. but in components that have weight concentrated in one area say because of a heavy transformer , the unit will not sit level on the tube will compress more under the heavy leaving the unit unlevel and possibly unstable. Depending on the size of the unit you can sometimes use different tubes with different pressures to compensate for the weight distribution, but this will not always work. Not a reason to abandon the idea of using bicycle tubes, but something you should be aware of when you try them.

Quote from: tmazz on July 02, 2021, 12:43:07 AM

Quote from: steve on July 01, 2021, 02:23:05 PM

Quote from: Nick B on March 17, 2021, 11:29:13 PM
I saw a featured system at Agon and the owner used various footers including Eden Sound Terra Stone bearings and a guy who posted a comment said that he could elicit quite a change by simply changing the bearing materials on diy roller blocks. His wife could easily note the improvement.

What do diy roller blocks look like? Anyone tried this and used different materials? My setup is sounding so nice nowadays that isolation tweaks are absolutely worth a try. My rack is a Pangea, which is nicely built and quite sturdy. I see videos of them being used at shows. The shelves, however, are not isolated from each other.

I was looking at some ISO Gaia's, but they're a little pricey and I have 5 components that might benefit from resonance control. Was also at Herbie's. Anyone used any of his stuff?

Would appreciate any thoughts/experiences.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I have some blocks that use steel balls, and the type of steel ball material makes a sonic difference in my system as well. I don't use them anymore, completely switched to isolation, and now use 12" bicycle inner tubes that are partially blown up. Walmart has them for ~$5.00 each. 

Cheers

steve

I know several guys who have had success using bicycle tubes, but you have to be careful about how the weight is distributed in the component you are using them with. If it is a fairly light unit or the load is evenly distributed across the case you will have no problems. but in components that have weight concentrated in one area say because of a heavy transformer , the unit will not sit level on the tube will compress more under the heavy leaving the unit unlevel and possibly unstable. Depending on the size of the unit you can sometimes use different tubes with different pressures to compensate for the weight distribution, but this will not always work. Not a reason to abandon the idea of using bicycle tubes, but something you should be aware of when you try them.

Jack suggested these cool looking doorstops and they would work well to counter the weight imbalance of a transformer. I bought a pair a few months ago. I believe they're 5 lbs each.

https://www.amazon.com/FLORA-GUARD-Brushed-Stainless-Cylindrical/dp/B07MJQCWQY/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Flora+door+stop&qid=1625216479&sr=8-1

The discussions on this thread got me thinking about those cork blocks and the fact that I have a few left in the basement. So yesterday just for kicks I tried putting them under my subs. I have 2 Carver True Subwoofer Super Juniors. I had then up on spikes,but to prevent the spikes from damaging the wood floor in the living room I finished a couple of 12x12 pieces of 3/4 inch I had laying around to match the floor and put them under the subs. So just for what the heck I put 4 of the cork blocks between the wood squares and the floor.i didn't expect much, but boy was I wrong. the subs tightened up and sounded better than they ever have. I guess the wood squares sitting directly on the floor were transferring too much energy to the floor itself cause the bass to sound loose. It seems counter-intuitive that the combination of coupling the subs to the wood squares but the isolating the square from the floor would provide such good results. You never know what will work until you try.

Next experiment when I get the time and energy will be to pull out the spikes and see how it sounds with the subs sitting directly on the decoupled wood. It may be better, it may be worse. The only way to know for sure it to try it.

Quote from: tmazz on July 15, 2021, 05:36:20 PM
The discussions on this thread got me thinking about those cork blocks and the fact that I have a few left in the basement. So yesterday just for kicks I tried putting them under my subs. I have 2 Carver True Subwoofer Super Juniors. I had then up on spikes,but to prevent the spikes from damaging the wood floor in the living room I finished a couple of 12x12 pieces of 3/4 inch I had laying around to match the floor and put them under the subs. So just for what the heck I put 4 of the cork blocks between the wood squares and the floor.i didn't expect much, but boy was I wrong. the subs tightened up and sounded better than they ever have. I guess the wood squares sitting directly on the floor were transferring too much energy to the floor itself cause the bass to sound loose. It seems counter-intuitive that the combination of coupling the subs to the wood squares but the isolating the square from the floor would provide such good results. You never know what will work until you try.

Next experiment when I get the time and energy will be to pull out the spikes and see how it sounds with the subs sitting directly on the decoupled wood. It may be better, it may be worse. The only way to know for sure it to try it.

Very interesting you should mention that. I have the Herbies fat dots and the spike puck things under the spikes on my speaker stands. I recently put sand in the columns with an excellent result. But I still noticed a little vibration when touching the stands, so I was thinking of putting a 1" block directly on the floor, then putting the sone puck things on that and then resting the spiked stands on that. The extra inch shouldn't affect tweeter performance.I think it will be work quite nicely.

Quote from: Nick B on July 15, 2021, 11:06:45 PM

Quote from: tmazz on July 15, 2021, 05:36:20 PM
The discussions on this thread got me thinking about those cork blocks and the fact that I have a few left in the basement. So yesterday just for kicks I tried putting them under my subs. I have 2 Carver True Subwoofer Super Juniors. I had then up on spikes,but to prevent the spikes from damaging the wood floor in the living room I finished a couple of 12x12 pieces of 3/4 inch I had laying around to match the floor and put them under the subs. So just for what the heck I put 4 of the cork blocks between the wood squares and the floor.i didn't expect much, but boy was I wrong. the subs tightened up and sounded better than they ever have. I guess the wood squares sitting directly on the floor were transferring too much energy to the floor itself cause the bass to sound loose. It seems counter-intuitive that the combination of coupling the subs to the wood squares but the isolating the square from the floor would provide such good results. You never know what will work until you try.

Next experiment when I get the time and energy will be to pull out the spikes and see how it sounds with the subs sitting directly on the decoupled wood. It may be better, it may be worse. The only way to know for sure it to try it.

Very interesting you should mention that. I have the Herbies fat dots and the spike puck things under the spikes on my speaker stands. I recently put sand in the columns with an excellent result. But I still noticed a little vibration when touching the stands, so I was thinking of putting a 1" block directly on the floor, then putting the sone puck things on that and then resting the spiked stands on that. The extra inch shouldn't affect tweeter performance.I think it will be work quite nicely.

Changing the height, or angle up/down definitely changed the sound. So altering sound will probably be a combination of height as well as coupling. Good luck on your endeavors Nick.

Cheers

steve

Email sent to Jeremy

<p>888sport Espana (https://888sports.blog/) es una casa de apuestas deportivas que opera legalmente en el mercado espanol. El servicio ofrece su seccion deportiva en el sitio oficial 888sport.es y pertenece a la sociedad 888 Online Games Espana, S.A.. El operador desarrolla su actividad dentro del sistema regulado de juego online espanol: 888sport.es figura expresamente entre los dominios autorizados por la Direccion General de Ordenacion del Juego.</p>
 
<p>La autorizacion de 888sport no se limita a una referencia comercial en su propia pagina. La Direccion General de Ordenacion del Juego identifica a 888 Online Games Espana, S.A. como operador vigente y recoge autorizaciones generales en las categorias de Apuestas y Otros Juegos. Entre sus licencias singulares aparece especificamente Apuestas Deportivas de Contrapartida, ademas de otras modalidades asociadas al ecosistema 888.</p>
 
<h2>Que ofrece 888sport</h2>
 
<p>La parte central de 888sport es su sportsbook. El usuario puede buscar competiciones, comparar mercados y preparar sus apuestas desde el cupon. La interfaz distingue entre pronosticos simples y diferentes formatos de apuestas combinadas, mientras que la disponibilidad exacta de cada mercado depende del partido o competicion seleccionados.</p>
 
<p>Aunque el futbol ocupa una posicion destacada, el catalogo deportivo de 888sport es considerablemente mas amplio. En el menu oficial aparecen actualmente categorias como futbol, baloncesto, tenis, balonmano, boxeo, badminton, beisbol y ciclismo. Tambien se incluyen carreras de galgos y otros mercados cuya disponibilidad puede variar segun la oferta activa de cada jornada.</p>
 
<h2>Mercados de futbol disponibles en 888sport</h2>
 
<p>La seccion de futbol reune una parte considerable de la oferta de apuestas de 888sport. El sitio publica mercados relacionados con ligas nacionales, competiciones europeas y otros torneos de clubes y selecciones. Ademas de apostar sobre partidos que todavia no han comenzado, determinados eventos admiten mercados live cuyo precio cambia durante el desarrollo del partido.</p>
 
<p>El abanico de apuestas no termina en el clasico 1X2. La oferta concreta cambia de un partido a otro, por lo que las cuotas y mercados visibles en el momento de realizar la apuesta son los que deben tomarse como referencia. Esto es especialmente importante en apuestas relacionadas con jugadores, goles, estadisticas del partido o combinaciones de varios resultados.</p>
 
<h2>Como funciona Super Suplente en 888sport</h2>
 
<p>Una de las mecanicas particulares publicadas actualmente por 888sport es la funcion denominada Super Suplente. Cuando esta marcada como disponible en un mercado compatible, la apuesta sobre el jugador original puede mantenerse activa a traves de su sustituto. La plataforma mantiene la cuota original de la seleccion y liquida el mercado aplicando las reglas publicadas para esta funcion.</p>
 
<p>No basta con apostar a cualquier jugador para beneficiarse de esta regla. 888sport indica su disponibilidad mediante una marca visible en los mercados compatibles. Entre los mercados contemplados figuran primer goleador, goleador en cualquier momento y ultimo goleador. La regulacion publicada tambien contempla competiciones como LaLiga, Premier League, Serie A y Bundesliga, ademas de otros encuentros que pueden ser senalados individualmente como compatibles.</p>
 
<h2>Como funcionan las apuestas live</h2>
 
<p>Otra seccion relevante es En Vivo. Desde esta area es posible localizar eventos que ya han comenzado y siguen aceptando apuestas. Las cuotas no permanecen necesariamente constantes durante una apuesta live, por lo que el valor mostrado al principio de un partido no tiene por que coincidir con el disponible posteriormente.</p>
 
<p>Esta modalidad aparece en diferentes deportes. La propia plataforma menciona, entre otros ejemplos, futbol, tenis, Formula 1, ciclismo y NFL. La cantidad de opciones en directo puede variar notablemente entre competiciones.</p>
 
<h2>Bono para nuevos usuarios de 888sport</h2>
 
<p>La promocion de registro vigente publicada por 888sport incluye una parte automatica tras el alta y otra relacionada con la primera apuesta. Segun las condiciones oficiales aplicables a usuarios registrados desde el 3 de noviembre de 2025, un nuevo usuario puede recibir dos apuestas gratis de 5 €, por un total de 10 €. Estas apuestas gratuitas deben reclamarse dentro de un plazo de cuatro dias y caducan cuatro dias despues de ser reclamadas.</p>
 
<p>La oferta incorpora tambien una proteccion promocional para la primera apuesta. Si la primera apuesta de dinero real resulta perdedora, 888sport anuncia la devolucion promocional de la cantidad apostada, con un limite de 100 €, mediante una free bet. Puede tratarse de una apuesta sencilla o combinada, prepartido o en vivo.</p>
 
<p>El funcionamiento del bono incluye restricciones que no conviene pasar por alto. El importe originalmente utilizado en una apuesta gratis queda excluido de las ganancias pagadas. Ademas, una apuesta gratis debe utilizarse integramente y no puede dividirse, no puede mezclarse con dinero real y no admite cash-out. Para los 10 € concedidos tras el registro, 888sport establece ademas un limite maximo de cuota 5,0.</p>
 
<p>Una oferta visible hoy puede cambiar en el futuro. Por ese motivo, antes de registrarse conviene comprobar la pagina oficial de promociones. Las promociones pueden ser sustituidas, suspendidas o actualizadas por el operador conforme a sus condiciones.</p>
 
<h2>Como ingresar dinero en 888sport</h2>
 
<p>La plataforma ofrece varias alternativas para anadir saldo. En la tabla oficial de limites aparecen actualmente tarjetas Visa y MasterCard, ApplePay, Skrill, NETELLER, PayPal, Paysafecard y Bizum. Para todos esos metodos, la pagina oficial de limites de deposito indica actualmente una cantidad minima de ingreso de 10 euros.</p>
 
<p>Conviene distinguir entre sistemas de deposito y metodos habilitados para retiros. Por ejemplo, la pagina bancaria de 888sport clasifica Bizum y Paysafecard como opciones que permiten ingresar pero no recibir directamente los retiros. La transferencia electronica, por su parte, aparece como un metodo destinado al pago de ganancias.</p>
 
<h2>Retiros de dinero en 888sport</h2>
 
<p>888sport aplica una politica de pagos relacionada con el historial previo de depositos. En terminos generales, si es posible, el operador devuelve fondos mediante los metodos que mantienen un balance de transaccion positivo. Esto puede afectar a tarjetas y monederos electronicos.</p>
 
<p>La cantidad minima depende del metodo elegido. Segun la politica actual, el umbral publicado es de 14 € para transferencia y de 4 € para Skrill, NETELLER, PayPal y tarjetas de credito o debito. Ademas, el operador puede solicitar documentacion adicional para comprobar los datos de registro o los metodos de ingreso.</p>
 
<p>Los tiempos orientativos de retirada varian segun el canal elegido. La tabla de 888sport indica entre el mismo dia y tres dias laborables para tarjetas Visa y MasterCard, el mismo dia para PayPal, Skrill y Apple Pay, del mismo dia a tres dias habiles para NETELLER y un plazo de dos a cinco dias laborables para la transferencia electronica. El propio operador advierte de que la entidad financiera todavia puede tardar mas en acreditar definitivamente los fondos.</p>
 
<h2>888sport desde el movil</h2>
 
<p>Las apuestas no estan limitadas al navegador de escritorio. El operador mantiene una experiencia web adaptada y aplicaciones para dispositivos moviles. Desde el movil es posible entrar en las principales secciones deportivas sin depender de un ordenador.</p>
 
<p>La cuenta utilizada es la misma dentro del ecosistema del operador. 888sport tambien forma parte del grupo de servicios espanoles de 888 junto con las plataformas de casino y poker. Los tres dominios, junto con 888.es, aparecen relacionados con 888 Online Games Espana, S.A. en el registro oficial de la DGOJ.</p>
 
<h2>Quien esta detras de 888sport.es</h2>
 
<p>Los datos legales de la plataforma pueden comprobarse publicamente. La sociedad responsable es 888 Online Games Espana, S.A., inscrita en la ciudad autonoma de Ceuta, con domicilio social indicado por el operador en Calle Millan Astray 1, 51001, Ceuta. La compania senala ademas que es parte del grupo empresarial encabezado por evoke Plc.</p>
 
<p>El registro regulatorio recoge informacion adicional sobre sus autorizaciones. Entre otras actuaciones, en abril de 2024 se prorrogo la vigencia de su licencia singular de apuestas deportivas de contrapartida, y el 19/06/2024 se publico una resolucion de homologacion del sistema tecnico correspondiente a dicha licencia. Esto permite distinguir a 888sport.es de paginas que simplemente utilizan una marca similar sin autorizacion espanola.</p>
 
<h2>Experiencia de apuestas y cupon</h2>
 
<p>En una apuesta simple solo interviene una seleccion. En cambio, una combinada agrupa varios pronosticos en el mismo boleto. La plataforma muestra ademas diferentes combinaciones y sistemas y menciona ejemplos como sistemas con varias apuestas independientes agrupadas dentro de una misma estructura. El riesgo y el posible retorno dependen de la estructura concreta del boleto.</p>
 
<p>Una cuota no representa una garantia de que vaya a producirse un resultado. El resultado de un evento deportivo puede hacer que se pierda la totalidad de la cantidad apostada. Por eso, conviene revisar la descripcion y las reglas de liquidacion antes de confirmar una apuesta.</p>
 
<h2>Apuestas a deportes electronicos</h2>
 
<p>888sport dispone de una categoria especifica de eSports. Entre los contenidos publicados por la propia plataforma se encuentran apuestas de League of Legends, con posibilidades tanto previas como live en eventos compatibles. En LoL pueden aparecer conceptos como mercados sobre el resultado de mapas concretos, aunque no todas las partidas presentan necesariamente las mismas alternativas.</p>
 
<h2>Que distingue a 888sport.es</h2>
 
<p>El punto de partida mas importante es su condicion de operador regulado por la DGOJ. A esto se suma una oferta que combina deportes tradicionales y eSports, apuestas prepartido y en directo, compatibilidad con ordenadores y dispositivos moviles, diferentes metodos de pago y ofertas cuyo funcionamiento esta regulado por terminos publicados por el operador.</p>
 
<p>Como en cualquier plataforma de apuestas, hay detalles que conviene comprobar antes de utilizar dinero real. Las apuestas gratis estan sujetas a reglas especificas, Bizum y Paysafecard no figuran como metodos capaces de recibir pagos en la tabla correspondiente, los retiros pueden requerir verificacion documental y una transferencia bancaria puede tardar mas que determinados monederos electronicos. Leer estas condiciones antes de ingresar evita asumir que todos los sistemas bancarios funcionan exactamente igual.</p>
 
<h2>Juego responsable en 888sport</h2>
 
<p>888sport esta destinado exclusivamente a mayores de 18 anos. La propia oferta de bienvenida muestra expresamente la indicacion para mayores de 18 anos y el sitio incorpora una seccion de juego responsable. Ademas, las condiciones promocionales indican que la concesion de determinadas promociones esta vinculada tambien a las medidas de juego responsable del operador.</p>
 
<p>Ninguna cuota ni estrategia elimina el riesgo asociado al juego. Utilizar unicamente dinero que pueda asumirse como perdido ayuda a mantener el juego dentro de limites razonables. La existencia de estadisticas, pronosticos, cuotas o mercados en directo no convierte el resultado futuro de un evento en seguro.</p>
 
<h2>Opinion final sobre 888sport.es</h2>
 
<p>888sport.es es una casa de apuestas deportiva plenamente integrada en el mercado regulado espanol. Su oferta reune futbol, tenis, baloncesto, eSports y numerosas disciplinas adicionales, junto con mercados previos a los eventos, opciones live y herramientas propias de la plataforma. El servicio puede utilizarse desde ordenador y movil, mientras que la seccion bancaria incorpora Visa, MasterCard, PayPal, Skrill, NETELLER, Apple Pay, Paysafecard y Bizum para depositos, sujetos a sus respectivas condiciones.</p>
 
<p>Antes del alta conviene verificar la promocion mostrada ese mismo dia en 888sport.es. Actualmente, la pagina oficial anuncia una bienvenida formada por 10 € en free bets y una segunda ventaja de hasta 100 € vinculada a la primera apuesta con dinero real. Los terminos, las fechas y la disponibilidad futura pueden cambiar, por lo que la informacion publicada por el propio operador debe ser siempre la referencia final.</p>
 
<p>En conjunto, la propuesta de 888sport se apoya en su licencia espanola, su cobertura multideporte y la posibilidad de apostar tanto antes como durante determinados eventos. La clave esta en revisar siempre las cuotas, las reglas del mercado y las condiciones bancarias antes de confirmar una operacion. Servicio destinado exclusivamente a mayores de edad. El juego debe mantenerse como entretenimiento y nunca como una fuente garantizada de ingresos.</p>