After the water problems in my room are finally fixed, time to start fresh.
Over the last few weeks the drywall has been replaced, the walls painted, the floor and trim replaced. As of today that is all done.
Bought a few area rugs to use in the rear of the room where my listening chair will be.
Attached before and after pictures.
I have contacted SonitusUSA about their acoustic treatment HT Ultra package after hearing it in another room and had great results. This is the system for either audio rooms or home theater rooms. After weeks of waiting still no real response about any timeframe for getting the products. Their supply is getting affected by the conflict in the Ukraine.
Will start looking at GIK, Aurelex and a few others to get pricing and availability.
Quote from: HAL on August 09, 2023, 08:06:09 PM
After the water problems in my room are finally fixed, time to start fresh.
Over the last few weeks the drywall has been replaced, the walls painted, the floor and trim replaced. As of today that is all done.
Bought a few area rugs to use in the rear of the room where my listening chair will be.
Attached before and after pictures.
I have contacted SonitusUSA about their acoustic treatment HT Ultra package after hearing it in another room and had great results. This is the system for either audio rooms or home theater rooms. After weeks of waiting still no real response about any timeframe for getting the products. Their supply is getting affected by the conflict in the Ukraine.
Will start looking at GIK, Aurelex and a few others to get pricing and availability.
Hi Rich (I believe I recall your true name correctly, if not, please correct me) :)
I use GIK acoustic paneling (four CT Alpha Series Corner Bass Traps 2DA, four 4A Alpha Pro Series Bass Trap Diffuser/Absorber 2DA, four 244 Bass Traps). It was relatively recent (a year and a half ago) I purchased them and had them installed. While I'm (now) very happy with the work Mike Major (their acoustician, employee) provided and the results I now have, it wasn't without incident. I spoke with owner Glenn Kuras twice, and both conversations weren't exactly pleasant.
So, look out, cause here comes some free advice (Bob Weir reference 8) :thumb:)
This advice applies specifically if you're purchasing any of their diffuser plates, whether they be attached to an absorption panel or stand-alone. First, reiterate to them that you want it packaged (which by the way you'd already be paying handsomely for) individually and with protective sleeving. Otherwise, expect some damage. If you check other forums, you'll discover this is a common occurrence with their diffuser panels.
Secondly, if aesthetics means anything to you, and with the assumption you would place them on various sides of the room, consider whether or not you want the panels "mirrored". If you do, specify that on your order. Otherwise, hypothetically, you could purchase four panels. Three would look the same, the fourth may not.
Best of luck.
Hal
p.s. if you want additional particulars, just ask. :) Best of luck with your "new" room. :D
By the way, I'd be remiss if I didn't point something out regarding your listening chair.
Based on the photo, it looks to me as though your head, and ears specifically, may not clear the headrest. If your ears do not fully clear the headrest, that will affect your sonic experience/presentation. And perhaps, not in an optimal way.
GDHAL,
You have the correct name.
I have seen the plan from GIK and not very happy with their ideas of how to treat the room. Seems counterproductive to place diffusors over top of absorbers, when all that is needed is a diffusor. You just pay a lot more and I am sure it makes them happy.
The SonitusUSA treatments are much reduced and makes more sense to me.
The chairs headrest is all the way down so that my head is over it. :)
Rich
Quote from: HAL on August 10, 2023, 10:51:37 AM
I have seen the plan from GIK and not very happy with their ideas of how to treat the room. Seems counterproductive to place diffusors over top of absorbers, when all that is needed is a diffusor. You just pay a lot more and I am sure it makes them happy.
The SonitusUSA treatments are much reduced and makes more sense to me.
:thumb:
Quote from: HAL on August 10, 2023, 10:51:37 AM
GDHAL,
You have the correct name.
I have seen the plan from GIK and not very happy with their ideas of how to treat the room. Seems counterproductive to place diffusors over top of absorbers, when all that is needed is a diffusor. You just pay a lot more and I am sure it makes them happy.
The SonitusUSA treatments are much reduced and makes more sense to me.
The chairs headrest is all the way down so that my head is over it. :)
Rich
In my case, I needed both diffusion and absorption. I had an acoustician besides GIK who physically came to my place and confirmed the same. 8)
Good to know your headrest is below your head. 8)
EDIT: BTW, GIK offers diffusers only if that's all you need/want.
GDHAL,
I have an estimate coming from an acoustician to cost out measuring, modeling and coming up with a plan to acoustically treat my room. Should have the proposal tomorrow.
Cool thing is the acoustician already knew about HAL and had some questions about my services. A small world.
My room will need absorption, diffusion and bass traps to correct it, even though it has very good dimensions. First reflection point absorption on the side walls and ceiling this time.
Will see what happens.
Quote from: HAL on August 10, 2023, 03:24:02 PM
GDHAL,
I have an estimate coming from an acoustician to cost out measuring, modeling and coming up with a plan to acoustically treat my room. Should have the proposal tomorrow.
Cool thing is the acoustician already knew about HAL and had some questions about my services. A small world.
My room will need absorption, diffusion and bass traps to correct it, even though it has very good dimensions. First reflection point absorption on the side walls and ceiling this time.
Will see what happens.
Kewl!! 8) :thumb:
Small world indeed. Please keep the group informed. I sincerely hope everything meets or exceeds your expectations. :D
Quote from: HAL on August 10, 2023, 03:24:02 PM
GDHAL,
I have an estimate coming from an acoustician to cost out measuring, modeling and coming up with a plan to acoustically treat my room. Should have the proposal tomorrow.
Cool thing is the acoustician already knew about HAL and had some questions about my services. A small world.
My room will need absorption, diffusion and bass traps to correct it, even though it has very good dimensions. First reflection point absorption on the side walls and ceiling this time.
Will see what happens.
Attend to the corners, Rich. 90 degree intersections SUCK - out mids. They are the single worst problem in every small room. Pay particular attention to the four upper tri-corners where walls and ceiling intersect. Comb filtering, honky nightmares!
Quote from: P.I. on August 10, 2023, 05:50:57 PM
Attend to the corners, Rich. 90 degree intersections SUCK - out mids. They are the single worst problem in every small room. Pay particular attention to the four upper tri-corners where walls and ceiling intersect. Comb filtering, honky nightmares!
Hi P.I. I'm in zip 11520. With virtually zero notice you can stop by my place. After (actually during) listening, I think you'll change your mind about 90 degree intersections suck out the mids in the corner. Bring your measurements gear too! :rofl: 8) :rofl: 8) :thumb:
Quote from: HAL on August 10, 2023, 03:24:02 PM
GDHAL,
I have an estimate coming from an acoustician to cost out measuring, modeling and coming up with a plan to acoustically treat my room. Should have the proposal tomorrow.
Cool thing is the acoustician already knew about HAL and had some questions about my services. A small world.
My room will need absorption, diffusion and bass traps to correct it, even though it has very good dimensions. First reflection point absorption on the side walls and ceiling this time.
Will see what happens.
And by the way Rich, my (good) advice about the mirroring of diffuser panels applies to whatever vendor you use.
At some level, aesthetics plays a role in everyone's A/V system.
Best.
Hal
GDHAL,
The Sonitus USA system I have heard is all about asymmetry in setting up acoustic materials. Their theory is that any symmetry leads to resonances.
After hearing a room treated with their system with very good speakers installed, I would have to agree with their theory. Having asymmetrical diffusors on opposite walls may look wrong, but acoustically was better.
Dave,
Yes, the tri-corners will all get treatments. At 10ft up, probably not by me. The Sonitus USA system has corner traps in all the upper corners and bass trapping for the lower corners.
Now if I could only get them to answer the question about east coast installers for their acoustic treatments I would be happy.
Should have the acoustician estimate today if things go well.
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 04:30:04 AM
GDHAL,
The Sonitus USA system I have heard is all about asymmetry in setting up acoustic materials. Their theory is that any symmetry leads to resonances.
After hearing a room treated with their system with very good speakers installed, I would have to agree with their theory. Having asymmetrical diffusors on opposite walls may look wrong, but acoustically was better.
Dave,
Yes, the tri-corners will all get treatments. At 10ft up, probably not by me. The Sonitus USA system has corner traps in all the upper corners and bass trapping for the lower corners.
Now if I could only get them to answer the question about east coast installers for their acoustic treatments I would be happy.
Should have the acoustician estimate today if things go well.
Rich, I humbly disagree that asymmetry has anything at all to do with resonance. And I mean ** anything **. And, I don't care if the president of the U.S. AND the pope say so. I know (for certain) so.
But, it's your space, do as you will.
If you're looking for an east coast installer, I have one. Likely the best as he does professional installs and is recommended by Bruce Clark of Audio Breakthroughs. He did my room. If you want his name and number, just ask. He works with a licensed carpenter using two laser where things are "exactly perfect" (Grateful Dead term). And I mean exact. Also uses the ** correct ** hardware to affix the materials to the wall/ceiling. Not cheap, but reasonable though IMO.
EDIT : Rich, if Sonitus USA is telling you asymmetry has something to do with resonance, please let them know that ** I ** say that so does the earth's position relative to the moon and sun at any given moment.
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 04:30:04 AM
..... The Sonitus USA system has corner traps in all the upper corners and bass trapping for the lower corners.....
.
What's the difference between "traps" and "bass trapping"? :duh
Sorry, Rich. I started my drinking a bit early today. :shock:
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 02:09:21 AM
Quote from: P.I. on August 10, 2023, 05:50:57 PM
Attend to the corners, Rich. 90 degree intersections SUCK - out mids. They are the single worst problem in every small room. Pay particular attention to the four upper tri-corners where walls and ceiling intersect. Comb filtering, honky nightmares!
Hi P.I. I'm in zip 11520. With virtually zero notice you can stop by my place. After (actually during) listening, I think you'll change your mind about 90 degree intersections suck out the mids in the corner. Bring your measurements gear too! :rofl: 8) :rofl: 8) :thumb:
My mind has nothing do do with the reality and immutability of physics.
https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Waves-and-Sound/Wave-Addition/Wave-Addition-Interactive
Quote from: P.I. on August 11, 2023, 12:23:41 PM
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 02:09:21 AM
Quote from: P.I. on August 10, 2023, 05:50:57 PM
Attend to the corners, Rich. 90 degree intersections SUCK - out mids. They are the single worst problem in every small room. Pay particular attention to the four upper tri-corners where walls and ceiling intersect. Comb filtering, honky nightmares!
Hi P.I. I'm in zip 11520. With virtually zero notice you can stop by my place. After (actually during) listening, I think you'll change your mind about 90 degree intersections suck out the mids in the corner. Bring your measurements gear too! :rofl: 8) :rofl: 8) :thumb:
My mind has nothing do do with the reality and immutability of physics.
https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Waves-and-Sound/Wave-Addition/Wave-Addition-Interactive
Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. - Albert Einstein.
That is especially true where audio ** listening/presentation ** is concerned. C'mon by. Bring your drool cup. Then write some more... 8)
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 06:59:13 AM
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 04:30:04 AM
..... The Sonitus USA system has corner traps in all the upper corners and bass trapping for the lower corners.....
.
What's the difference between "traps" and "bass trapping"? :duh
Sorry, Rich. I started my drinking a bit early today. :shock:
The corner traps are 3 sides pyramids and the bass traps are elongated triangles. Trapping just means you installed it.
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 06:59:13 AM
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 04:30:04 AM
..... The Sonitus USA system has corner traps in all the upper corners and bass trapping for the lower corners.....
.
What's the difference between "traps" and "bass trapping"? :duh
Sorry, Rich. I started my drinking a bit early today. :shock:
The corner traps are 3 sides pyramids and the bass traps are elongated triangles. Trapping just means you installed it.
Oh! Hmmm 🤔
Can you please send me the details of the 3 side piramid traps?
If they are cloth, I've witnessed them in operation and am interested in purchasing 2. Thanks
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 04:30:04 AM
.... Trapping just means you installed it.
Sorry, but I disagree. 8)
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 12:31:14 PM
Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. - Albert Einstein.
That is especially true where audio ** listening/presentation ** is concerned. C'mon by. Bring your drool cup. Then write some more... 8)
I'll pass, thanks.
Quote from: P.I. on August 11, 2023, 04:00:22 PM
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 12:31:14 PM
Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. - Albert Einstein.
That is especially true where audio ** listening/presentation ** is concerned. C'mon by. Bring your drool cup. Then write some more... 8)
I'll pass, thanks.
You're welcome 😁
LOVE the chair Rich, thanks for providing the pictures. I've had my Ekornes for 25 years now and it's holding up as well as my 72 year old self (probably better). :lol: I also keep the headrest low so I can hear my 3 rear speakers. It's a must as is my comfortable custom made Ekorne chair that I'll never part with.
That drooling cup comment reminds me of myself in bed with a "drooling cup" for a pillow every morning. I constantly need to change the pillow case so reading that comment made me chuckle lots. :drool: :rofl:
Cheers,
Robin
Here is the link to the Sonitus USA acoustics Ultra package materials that I have heard in a treated room that probably was the best sounding music replay installation of all time. You may disagree with the theory, but the proof is in the pudding! (But, you can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!) :)
This is for a listening room or home theater. They have another package for recording studios.
https://www.sonitususa.com/product/home-cinema-acoustic-systems
Quote from: satfrat on August 11, 2023, 11:49:09 PM
LOVE the chair Rich, thanks for providing the pictures. I've had my Ekornes for 25 years now and it's holding up as well as my 72 year old self (probably better). :lol: I also keep the headrest low so I can hear my 3 rear speakers. It's a must as is my comfortable custom made Ekorne chair that I'll never part with.
That drooling cup comment reminds me of myself in bed with a "drooling cup" for a pillow every morning. I constantly need to change the pillow case so reading that comment made me chuckle lots. :drool: :rofl:
Cheers,
Robin
Robin,
I agree, the Ekornes Stressless Chair is my favorite as well. I tried my friends chair like the one in the picture, but I like mine better.
Rich
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 06:59:13 AM
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 04:30:04 AM
..... The Sonitus USA system has corner traps in all the upper corners and bass trapping for the lower corners.....
.
What's the difference between "traps" and "bass trapping"? :duh
Sorry, Rich. I started my drinking a bit early today. :shock:
OK.
Here is a commercial product that works well: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriCornerBlk--primacoustic-cumulus-tri-corner-bass-trap-black-2-pack
Quote from: satfrat on August 11, 2023, 11:49:09 PM
LOVE the chair Rich, thanks for providing the pictures. I've had my Ekornes for 25 years now and it's holding up as well as my 72 year old self (probably better). :lol: I also keep the headrest low so I can hear my 3 rear speakers. It's a must as is my comfortable custom made Ekorne chair that I'll never part with.
That drooling cup comment reminds me of myself in bed with a "drooling cup" for a pillow every morning. I constantly need to change the pillow case so reading that comment made me chuckle lots. :drool: :rofl:
Cheers,
Robin
The corner traps are 3 sides pyramids and the bass traps are elongated triangles. Trapping just means you installed it.
Get some double-strength cardboard. Cut the largest equilateral triangles you can fit into the upper corners of your room. Cover them with an attractive fabric. Tack them up in the corners of the room with as much polyester batting or Acousta-Stuf (better) in the cavity behind the triangle that will fit. Result? Better performance for 1/10 the expense.
Of course this means actually doing the work! :thumb:
Dave,
Once I get some measurements done in the room, I have a 3D model in CARACAD 2.2 if it still works. It is a raytracing acoustics model that has done well in the past for my room setup. You have to create all the room materials, so it takes awhile to setup.
I have a problem installing stuff. The middle ear is not great with heights or looking up. Since the ceiling is 10ft high, probably not a good thing for me to try.
To get to this point has pretty much drained the audio budget for a long while. I still have the diffusion foam panels Igor made for me, so will start there. They survived the water problem and also have more in storage.
I do have some RPG foam panels that were not in the room, so those can be first reflection point absorption. Your corner trap design is something I can do, so that will be something to try if a friend can help with install. Or get the ones you recommend.
Until then, I have an echo chamber to play with! :)
Quote from: HAL on August 13, 2023, 05:30:41 AM
Dave,
Once I get some measurements done in the room, I have a 3D model in CARACAD 2.2 if it still works. It is a raytracing acoustics model that has done well in the past for my room setup. You have to create all the room materials, so it takes awhile to setup.
I have a problem installing stuff. The middle ear is not great with heights or looking up. Since the ceiling is 10ft high, probably not a good thing for me to try.
To get to this point has pretty much drained the audio budget for a long while. I still have the diffusion foam panels Igor made for me, so will start there. They survived the water problem and also have more in storage.
I do have some RPG foam panels that were not in the room, so those can be first reflection point absorption. Your corner trap design is something I can do, so that will be something to try if a friend can help with install. Or get the ones you recommend.
Until then, I have an echo chamber to play with! :)
The version of CARACAD that I have is a 16-bit application that I can't get to work using any emulator. Bummer it worked pretty well.
Treble is one of the best acoustics software packages available. One needs to be at least able to work with SketchUp in order to create the models. There is a 30-day free trial period:
https://www.treble.tech/acoustics-suite
So, what's the RT60? 60..... 60.... 60..................
Dave,
This time I am talking to Bay Acoustics to do room measurements and a 3D model with auralization of my room with proposed treatments. He has much better tools than I do for the measurements and modeling. I am not good at all with 3D CAD even with taking mechanical drawing in the late '70s.
Listening to voice in the room the RT60 is probably 2-3 seconds. It is an echo chamber!
Will see if I can afford the acoustician and what he proposes. If not, then back to REW.
Rich
Quote from: HAL on August 14, 2023, 05:00:48 AM
Dave,
This time I am talking to Bay Acoustics to do room measurements and a 3D model with auralization of my room with proposed treatments. He has much better tools than I do for the measurements and modeling. I am not good at all with 3D CAD even with taking mechanical drawing in the late '70s.
Listening to voice in the room the RT60 is probably 2-3 seconds. It is an echo chamber!
Will see if I can afford the acoustician and what he proposes. If not, then back to REW.
Rich
:thumb:
Too much thinking, not enough listening :thumb:
8)
Hard to listen when you do not have a listening room! :(
Touché!
This is literally my other listening environment when I want to listen off allowable (coop rules) hours. :thumb:
https://www.audeze.com/products/lcd-x
Highly recommended. I plug it into my Oppo UDP205, which is no slouch of a headphone amp given objective measurement data I've seen.
Of course, there are better headphones and headphone amps, but LCDX serve my purpose of being able to listen without the room, per se. 8)
Quote from: P.I. on August 12, 2023, 07:43:00 PM
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 06:59:13 AM
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 04:30:04 AM
..... The Sonitus USA system has corner traps in all the upper corners and bass trapping for the lower corners.....
.
What's the difference between "traps" and "bass trapping"? :duh
Sorry, Rich. I started my drinking a bit early today. :shock:
OK.
Here is a commercial product that works well: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriCornerBlk--primacoustic-cumulus-tri-corner-bass-trap-black-2-pack
Quote from: satfrat on August 11, 2023, 11:49:09 PM
LOVE the chair Rich, thanks for providing the pictures. I've had my Ekornes for 25 years now and it's holding up as well as my 72 year old self (probably better). :lol: I also keep the headrest low so I can hear my 3 rear speakers. It's a must as is my comfortable custom made Ekorne chair that I'll never part with.
That drooling cup comment reminds me of myself in bed with a "drooling cup" for a pillow every morning. I constantly need to change the pillow case so reading that comment made me chuckle lots. :drool: :rofl:
Cheers,
Robin
The corner traps are 3 sides pyramids and the bass traps are elongated triangles. Trapping just means you installed it.
Get some double-strength cardboard. Cut the largest equilateral triangles you can fit into the upper corners of your room. Cover them with an attractive fabric. Tack them up in the corners of the room with as much polyester batting or Acousta-Stuf (better) in the cavity behind the triangle that will fit. Result? Better performance for 1/10 the expense.
Of course this means actually doing the work! :thumb:
Example: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=186366.msg1958138#new
Quote from: GDHAL on August 14, 2023, 05:34:49 PM
Touché!
This is literally my other listening environment when I want to listen off allowable (coop rules) hours. :thumb:
https://www.audeze.com/products/lcd-x
Highly recommended. I plug it into my Oppo UDP205, which is no slouch of a headphone amp given objective measurement data I've seen.
Of course, there are better headphones and headphone amps, but LCDX serve my purpose of being able to listen without the room, per se. 8)
I have a pair of Audeze LCD-MX4's, a Topping E70 Velvet DAC and E90 Discrete HPA. Sounds great, but not an audio room.
Quote from: P.I. on August 14, 2023, 06:47:52 PM
Quote from: P.I. on August 12, 2023, 07:43:00 PM
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: GDHAL on August 11, 2023, 06:59:13 AM
Quote from: HAL on August 11, 2023, 04:30:04 AM
..... The Sonitus USA system has corner traps in all the upper corners and bass trapping for the lower corners.....
.
What's the difference between "traps" and "bass trapping"? :duh
Sorry, Rich. I started my drinking a bit early today. :shock:
OK.
Here is a commercial product that works well: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriCornerBlk--primacoustic-cumulus-tri-corner-bass-trap-black-2-pack
Quote from: satfrat on August 11, 2023, 11:49:09 PM
LOVE the chair Rich, thanks for providing the pictures. I've had my Ekornes for 25 years now and it's holding up as well as my 72 year old self (probably better). :lol: I also keep the headrest low so I can hear my 3 rear speakers. It's a must as is my comfortable custom made Ekorne chair that I'll never part with.
That drooling cup comment reminds me of myself in bed with a "drooling cup" for a pillow every morning. I constantly need to change the pillow case so reading that comment made me chuckle lots. :drool: :rofl:
Cheers,
Robin
The corner traps are 3 sides pyramids and the bass traps are elongated triangles. Trapping just means you installed it.
Get some double-strength cardboard. Cut the largest equilateral triangles you can fit into the upper corners of your room. Cover them with an attractive fabric. Tack them up in the corners of the room with as much polyester batting or Acousta-Stuf (better) in the cavity behind the triangle that will fit. Result? Better performance for 1/10 the expense.
Of course this means actually doing the work! :thumb:
Example: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=186366.msg1958138#new
Dave,
Thanks!
Right now the reverb chamber works with the SG Special rig and Ambisonic recording. The Binaural mix sounds cool!
Did find out about an installer for the SonitusUSA system. First will be some measurements to get it correct this time.
Quote from: HAL on August 14, 2023, 07:59:30 PM
Quote from: GDHAL on August 14, 2023, 05:34:49 PM
Touché!
This is literally my other listening environment when I want to listen off allowable (coop rules) hours. :thumb:
https://www.audeze.com/products/lcd-x
Highly recommended. I plug it into my Oppo UDP205, which is no slouch of a headphone amp given objective measurement data I've seen.
Of course, there are better headphones and headphone amps, but LCDX serve my purpose of being able to listen without the room, per se. 8)
I have a pair of Audeze LCD-MX4's, a Topping E70 Velvet DAC and E90 Discrete HPA. Sounds great, but not an audio room.
Yep. That whole "soundstage", " they are here" thing that just doesn't happen in headspace.