I was at a friend's house last weekend and after a number of years he finally had his subs dialed in properly. He has sealed subs and the effect was astounding. I could feel a bow going across the double bass on my skin. It wasn't bloated or overdone, it was just right. I have open baffle speakers, and I play the same song at home and the bass is fine but not what I heard then. I am toying with the idea of Gr Research Double Trouble sub which is a open baffle design. I have tried subs in the past with box speakers but always got rid of them due to having to always play with the settings which is always a pain in the ass. My bass is very good to excellent with my speakers now, just looking for the extra 10%. It isn't cheap so I would hate to have buy and do whatever with them if it didn't work out.
https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-double-trouble-with-flatpacks-copy/
The open baffle 12in H-Frame servo subs work well in rooms if you have at least 3ft from the rear of the cabinet to the front wall. They need space for the dipole radiation pattern to work. I typically have them 4ft from the side walls as well. I aim them at the listening seat for the peak of the figure 8 to be pointing at me.
Depending on room size, is what drives the need for extra excursion for 2x12, 3x12 or larger.
In nearfield, I put my Magnepan LRS+ on top of a 1x12 modular H-Frame that I bought flat packs from captainhemo/Jay. Works for LRS as well. This way they are time aligned if the planars are vertical.
I do use a dspNexus 2/8 and have done just sub DSP EQ and speaker correction for shows with great sound quality with Class D amps. I use REW to do the room bass manangement measurements and then EQ the subs below 200Hz (around the Schroeder room frequency) with the recommended filters that it can generate.
It is not a HT sub with special effects. Very musical indeed.
Quote from: HAL on March 15, 2025, 06:02:53 AM
The open baffle 12in H-Frame servo subs work well in rooms if you have at least 3ft from the rear of the cabinet to the front wall. They need space for the dipole radiation pattern to work. I typically have them 4ft from the side walls as well. I aim them at the listening seat for the peak of the figure 8 to be pointing at me.
Depending on room size, is what drives the need for extra excursion for 2x12, 3x12 or larger.
In nearfield, I put my Magnepan LRS+ on top of a 1x12 modular H-Frame that I bought flat packs from captainhemo/Jay. Works for LRS as well. This way they are time aligned if the planars are vertical.
I do use a dspNexus 2/8 and have done just sub DSP EQ and speaker correction for shows with great sound quality with Class D amps. I use REW to do the room bass manangement measurements and then EQ the subs below 200Hz (around the Schroeder room frequency) with the recommended filters that it can generate.
It is not a HT sub with special effects. Very musical indeed.
Leo once tried to explain your work to me mostly signal processing is my take. My speakers are about 6 feet from the front wall and the room is 13x22
(//)
Wonderful Subs from GR. If someone can make the enclosures for you. I like Rythmic F12 subs. Own a pair. Very easy to set up.
charles
Quote from: rollo on March 15, 2025, 09:20:55 AM
Wonderful Subs from GR. If someone can make the enclosures for you. I like Rythmic F12 subs. Own a pair. Very easy to set up.
charles
GR has flat packs
The GR Research subs are fast (tight), articulate and tuneful. Once you become used to not "hearing the boxes" there is no going back. Flat in-room to below 20Hz.
Quote from: ejk on March 15, 2025, 06:11:15 AM
Quote from: HAL on March 15, 2025, 06:02:53 AM
The open baffle 12in H-Frame servo subs work well in rooms if you have at least 3ft from the rear of the cabinet to the front wall. They need space for the dipole radiation pattern to work. I typically have them 4ft from the side walls as well. I aim them at the listening seat for the peak of the figure 8 to be pointing at me.
Depending on room size, is what drives the need for extra excursion for 2x12, 3x12 or larger.
In nearfield, I put my Magnepan LRS+ on top of a 1x12 modular H-Frame that I bought flat packs from captainhemo/Jay. Works for LRS as well. This way they are time aligned if the planars are vertical.
I do use a dspNexus 2/8 and have done just sub DSP EQ and speaker correction for shows with great sound quality with Class D amps. I use REW to do the room bass manangement measurements and then EQ the subs below 200Hz (around the Schroeder room frequency) with the recommended filters that it can generate.
It is not a HT sub with special effects. Very musical indeed.
Leo once tried to explain your work to me mostly signal processing is my take. My speakers are about 6 feet from the front wall and the room is 13x22
(//)
After Leo's sale, I help the dspNexus customer make the in room measurements, build the DSP processing needed and do the EQ corrections needed for the flat on-axis frequency response with Audio Weaver. Room measurements make the frequency response correction process go a lot faster than only by ear.
I think I may ditch the idea. If it doesn't work out I'm in a situation where selling it will not be easy due to weight and no boxes for shipping
That is why I build the modular 1x12 OB H-Frame cabinet version that captainhemo makes flat packs. Easy to paint after gluing and clamping the cabinet with the dowels provided.
The tops and bottoms bolt on with supplied hardware and the sub stack can be dissasembled for easy movement and shipping. Each loaded cabinet is about 35lbs. I get dual wall shipping boxes from Lowes that are 18"x18"x16" and just put packing material around them.
Good luck with your decision.
Quote from: HAL on March 16, 2025, 06:28:06 AM
That is why I build the modular 1x12 OB H-Frame cabinet version that captainhemo makes flat packs. Easy to paint after gluing and clamping the cabinet with the dowels provided.
The tops and bottoms bolt on with supplied hardware and the sub stack can be dissasembled for easy movement and shipping. Each loaded cabinet is about 35lbs. I get dual wall shipping boxes from Lowes that are 18"x18"x16" and just put packing material around them.
Good luck with your decision.
I'm not out yet. lol
I was looking at Danville's website and the DSP price is just out of my ballpark.
I was just looking at this picture and saying to myself why can't I do this? But I think Danny was saying somewhere that the 2 opposed woofers were better for Open Baffle speakers. If I got the single flat pack, I could still stack them and use the amp Danny supplies. I don't see the single flat pack on Danny's website so I would assume I would email Capthemo direct for pricing.
ejk,
Yes, ask captainhemo directly for pricing with shipping to you.
I find very little difference between all forward firing and opposed firing OB servo subs. With the modulars, they are symmetrical, so trying both ways is easy before making a decision. Discuss it with him so he knows what you want to do.
I'm assuming this would satisfy my room which is 13x22 and treated with diffuser and absorption panels and bass traps, including ceiling.
I would ask Danny that question.
The way I setup the subs is 3ft from the front wall and 4 ft from the side walls. If on the short wall that puts the subs 5ft apart. The speakers would be on the outside of the subs.
I just did something similar for a customer with Magnepan 3.7's with the dual OB subs with very good results. His room was wider than 13ft and mine is 16ft wide.
Quote from: HAL on March 16, 2025, 04:24:28 PM
I would ask Danny that question.
The way I setup the subs is 3ft from the front wall and 4 ft from the side walls. If on the short wall that puts the subs 5ft apart. The speakers would be on the outside of the subs.
I just did something similar for a customer with Magnepan 3.7's with the dual OB subs with very good results. His room was wider than 13ft and mine is 16ft wide.
I sent Captainhemo an email. I'm thinking either way now on the cabinet as I am thinking of just placing it in the middle of my speakers. Here is a link from A/C on my system.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=2712
I heard back from Danny and he said one Dounle Trouble would work great in my system. Now someone push me over the edge.
Well, put a pair of the modular 2x12 OB subs in Jay's cabs for a customer in Feb. Covers 14Hz to 125Hz with his Magnepan 3.7 speakers. These have the dspNexus EQ processing not a Servo Amp run with his Rotel amps.
Sounds much better than his earlier ported subs.
Quote from: HAL on March 17, 2025, 05:00:03 PM
Well, put a pair of the modular 2x12 OB subs in Jay's cabs for a customer in Feb. Covers 14Hz to 125Hz with his Magnepan 3.7 speakers. These have the dspNexus EQ processing not a Servo Amp run with his Rotel amps.
Sounds much better than his earlier ported subs.
Nice looking room, Rich, but seems a bit narrow. If so, I presume easily adjustable via dsp
Nick
Nick,
Yes, the system and room is being DSP EQ'd with very good results.
Quote from: HAL on March 17, 2025, 07:37:07 PM
Nick,
Yes, the system and room is being DSP EQ'd with very good results.
I was reading that some owners can't get below 30hz. What to do. Has anyome tried sealed subs with the open baffle speakers. That is not using dsp, sorry for the qoute
With the room setup I mentioned, here is the system frequency response in the room pictured at the listening seat. This is before any room bass management is applied.
This is not using the servo amp, but EQ from the dspNexus 2/8 with Rotel amps the subs 3ft from the front wall and 4ft from the side walls.
Quote from: HAL on March 18, 2025, 05:42:07 AM
With the room setup I mentioned, here is the system frequency response in the room pictured at the listening seat. This is before any room bass management is applied.
This is not using the servo amp, but EQ from the dspNexus 2/8 with Rotel amps the subs 3ft from the front wall and 4ft from the side walls.
I guess I have stuck in my brain something that will pressurize a room, but OB subs don't do that from my understanding they will just add impact. A double bass will go down to 31hz and from what I have read the only thing that will go lower would be a pipe organ. My goal would be to hear that double bass clearer even though I feel it is good now. I got a chance to go over to Greg from GT Audio yesterday and listen to his speakers. They are not GR Research subs but the same concept. He had dual quadruple subs with his Planar speakers and the bass was impactful, yet the double bass sounded just a tad bit better than what I get with my Spatial speakers. I emailed Danny and asked him if we can get a call going. Captainhemo advised me not to go with single enclosures due to needing separate amps and wiring.
Quote from: ejk on March 19, 2025, 06:58:14 AM
Quote from: HAL on March 18, 2025, 05:42:07 AM
With the room setup I mentioned, here is the system frequency response in the room pictured at the listening seat. This is before any room bass management is applied.
This is not using the servo amp, but EQ from the dspNexus 2/8 with Rotel amps the subs 3ft from the front wall and 4ft from the side walls.
I guess I have stuck in my brain something that will pressurize a room, but OB subs don't do that from my understanding they will just add impact. A double bass will go down to 31hz and from what I have read the only thing that will go lower would be a pipe organ. My goal would be to hear that double bass clearer even though I feel it is good now. I got a chance to go over to Greg from GT Audio yesterday and listen to his speakers. They are not GR Research subs but the same concept. He had dual quadruple subs with his Planar speakers and the bass was impactful, yet the double bass sounded just a tad bit better than what I get with my Spatial speakers. I emailed Danny and asked him if we can get a call going. Captainhemo advised me not to go with single enclosures due to needing separate amps and wiring.
The piano goes down to 28HZ. However not the point. Subs especially pairs bring the full sound stage/ The Hall pe say. I like Rythmic F-12 Subs which I use. Go down to 16HZ. Subs make a big difference even if your speakers go down to 20HZ. Lee Scoggins uses subs with His Wilsons as an example. About 1K each.
charles
Quote from: rollo on March 19, 2025, 08:56:35 AM
Quote from: ejk on March 19, 2025, 06:58:14 AM
Quote from: HAL on March 18, 2025, 05:42:07 AM
With the room setup I mentioned, here is the system frequency response in the room pictured at the listening seat. This is before any room bass management is applied.
This is not using the servo amp, but EQ from the dspNexus 2/8 with Rotel amps the subs 3ft from the front wall and 4ft from the side walls.
I guess I have stuck in my brain something that will pressurize a room, but OB subs don't do that from my understanding they will just add impact. A double bass will go down to 31hz and from what I have read the only thing that will go lower would be a pipe organ. My goal would be to hear that double bass clearer even though I feel it is good now. I got a chance to go over to Greg from GT Audio yesterday and listen to his speakers. They are not GR Research subs but the same concept. He had dual quadruple subs with his Planar speakers and the bass was impactful, yet the double bass sounded just a tad bit better than what I get with my Spatial speakers. I emailed Danny and asked him if we can get a call going. Captainhemo advised me not to go with single enclosures due to needing separate amps and wiring.
The piano goes down to 28HZ. However not the point. Subs especially pairs bring the full sound stage/ The Hall pe say. I like Rythmic F-12 Subs which I use. Go down to 16HZ. Subs make a big difference even if your speakers go down to 20HZ. Lee Scoggins uses subs with His Wilsons as an example. About 1K each.
charles
Understood but my dilemma is that they claim boxed subs do not integrate well with OB speakers. Not sure but I get a 50/50 split opinion on boxed subs vs OB subs working correctly with my Spatials or OB speakers in general
If you heard Greg's subs, then that is the bass quality you would get with the GR/Rythmik style OB subs.
I always match speaker radiation patterns, OB speakers and OB subs or Magnepans dipoles with dipole OB subs are great combinations.
Evan
I used a pair of Rythmik F12G's with Spatial M3 TMs in an 18x24x10 Family Room for over three years and I had no problem integrating them. I'm now using the F12Gs and a pair of F12SEs together in a larger purpose built room with the quasi open baffle Qualio IQ Ultra's and again no problem with the integration. I've found that integration problems occur with too high of a crossover setting and volume setting. The subs also worked fine with the again quasi open baffle Nola KO's. The M3 TMs are boxed up in a climate controlled warehouse since the move so haven't tried them in the new room.
Quote from: Jack on March 19, 2025, 07:45:03 PM
Evan
I used a pair of Rythmik F12G's with Spatial M3 TMs in an 18x24x10 Family Room for over three years and I had no problem integrating them. I'm now using the F12Gs and a pair of F12SEs together in a larger purpose built room with the quasi open baffle Qualio IQ Ultra's and again no problem with the integration. I've found that integration problems occur with too high of a crossover setting and volume setting. The subs also worked fine with the again quasi open baffle Nola KO's. The M3 TMs are boxed up in a climate controlled warehouse since the move so haven't tried them in the new room.
I have been looking at the F12 and after hearing the OB subs I'm in a dilemma, do I want fast boomless bass or do I want to pressurize the room.
It's up to you to decide what you want. But years ago when I was at Danny's and we were tweaking his first speaker that integrated the servo subs, I told him it was the first time I heard a speaker that could sound like the lower register of a 9 ft concert grand piano.
But I know a guy that is addicted to boom... he doesn't think my system has "enough" bass. I think his system simply booms the room at about 90 hz. Different stokes for different folks.
Then there is "The Swarm" set up. Four subs. Absolute Sound Award.
charles
Not to be redundant, but I just want to clarify that I want to still run the Spatial speaker's full range, and I want which ever sub I choose to accompany the Spatial and go lower in the bass. It seems to be a 50/50 mix on which to choose from who I have been talking to.
Quote from: ejk on March 21, 2025, 06:06:42 AM
Not to be redundant, but I just want to clarify that I want to still run the Spatial speaker's full range, and I want which ever sub I choose to accompany the Spatial and go lower in the bass. It seems to be a 50/50 mix on which to choose from who I have been talking to.
and that is what you should do. Exactly what I do. The -3db point of my speakers are 38db. The crossover is set at 40HZ. Blends in perfectly. They are placed away from the corner as Rythmic suggests. Actually in line with drivers of speakers.
charles
Quote from: ejk on March 18, 2025, 05:23:42 AM
Quote from: HAL on March 17, 2025, 07:37:07 PM
Nick,
Yes, the system and room is being DSP EQ'd with very good results.
I was reading that some owners can't get below 30hz. What to do. Has anyome tried sealed subs with the open baffle speakers. That is not using dsp, sorry for the qoute
I think my situation is similar to yours- I have the M3 Turbo S, and I use sealed Hsu subs (ULS-15Mk2). I run the Spatials full range, and have my sub crossover at 40 Hz.
They pretty much disappear at this setting.
Because the Spatials are so efficient, be prepared to run the sub volume at a higher setting than you might be used to in other situations.
Well maybe time to consider a non OB Speaker that actually goes down to 20HZ. Even 24 HZ like the Qln Prestige 3 as an example.
charles