is there such a thing?
i could have sworn i read you shouldnt go less than 6 ft-with my new set-up i can get away with 3.5 feet or so-
you guys see any issues?
Mapleshade recommends minimum 8 foot length. I think any audible differences would be pretty slight, but I never tried it.
Quote from: rosconey on March 31, 2008, 03:16:44 PM
is there such a thing?
i could have sworn i read you shouldnt go less than 6 ft-with my new set-up i can get away with 3.5 feet or so-
you guys see any issues?
Take it for whats its worth but I know a little about capacitance, inductance and resistance and there is no such thing as a minimum needed. I wish there was as it would make selling longer power cords (which happen to cost more) a heck of a lot easier! :D The same principal applies when it comes to speaker wire.
I currently run 1M lengths to each of my main speakers and if somebody can show me how my current 1M length will differ from a 6F length, I will take back the above.
The resistance on a 1M run of 12AWG good old fashioned Copper wire is 0.0053 and that moves to 0.0106 at 2M. If anybody can hear that difference, you have the best ears on the face of the earth and hear better than anything that breaths air! The numbers get even better when you drop the AWG of the wire.
To take it one step further, claiming that you need to go at least 6 feet without taking into consideration the AWG of the wire being used in relation to the ohm load of the speakers is completely moronic.
End of rant..... :rofl:
John, obviously you don't receive the beautiful prose and magical audio wisdom contained in Mapleshade catalogs up in Canada? It is "very inspiring" to buy stuff, big promises and lots of fun hobby passion. I enjoy reading it, but not yet bought anything from them. WEEZ loved their soft cork footers for TT, and Jrebman and others love their maple platforms and footers.
Their concept of thin ribbon conductors with loose dielectric for ICs seems logical to me, similar to Grover's design. So merely by association I wanna give creedence to the 8 foot rule, because in other creative and innovative ways he has been correct. But like you I can't see why on this one... Unless it is the Sumiko explanation of why a power cord is better when longer, by isolating the powered component better from the RF in the stereo area. That doesn't make much sense to me either and Sumiko's other two reasons for a PC seem like BS too. But I know it works ;) Maple shade PCs or SCs aren't very well shielded anyway, so I think that is not the reason here. But a SC is completely inside the system so RF rejection is a reason to have it shorter, not longer.
I bought my JPS SCs as 8 feet just to make sure. Now they are always too long, but at least I know they sound better that way :lol:
BTW, I have had the pleasure of using your statement cord the last couple days, courtesy the generous Carl. Very nice John! I only wish it was a foot longer, 2M is just too short for a proper power cord. ;) haha
I think the best of Mapleshade is their music.... Many of their CDs are excellent. But their cables and tweaks depend a good bit on whether you drink their koolaid.
Quote from: richidoo on April 01, 2008, 05:26:58 AM
John, obviously you don't receive the beautiful prose and magical audio wisdom contained in Mapleshade catalogs up in Canada? It is "very inspiring" to buy stuff, big promises and lots of fun hobby passion. I enjoy reading it, but not yet bought anything from them. WEEZ loved their soft cork footers for TT, and Jrebman and others love their maple platforms and footers.
Their concept of thin ribbon conductors with loose dielectric for ICs seems logical to me, similar to Grover's design. So merely by association I wanna give creedence to the 8 foot rule, because in other creative and innovative ways he has been correct. But like you I can't see why on this one... Unless it is the Sumiko explanation of why a power cord is better when longer, by isolating the powered component better from the RF in the stereo area. That doesn't make much sense to me either and Sumiko's other two reasons for a PC seem like BS too. But I know it works ;) Maple shade PCs or SCs aren't very well shielded anyway, so I think that is not the reason here. But a SC is completely inside the system so RF rejection is a reason to have it shorter, not longer.
I bought my JPS SCs as 8 feet just to make sure. Now they are always too long, but at least I know they sound better that way :lol:
BTW, I have had the pleasure of using your statement cord the last couple days, courtesy the generous Carl. Very nice John! I only wish it was a foot longer, 2M is just too short for a proper power cord. ;) haha
Hey Rich,
I don't want to come across as taking shots at Mapleshade as I don't know them, don't use any of there stuff and really could care less what they do, but If they do in fact have that statement posted somewhere out there in internet land, it's bs. End of story.
Same goes for shorter versus longer when it comes to power cords. The differences between one of my (very lightly shielded) Violet Z1's in a 1M length and a 2M length are minimal to say the least. There would be zero performance differences from the two.....that I can say for a fact. Short or long it doesn't much matter. Use the length you need to do a proper installation. Longer is actually a little better as more often than not it's easier to install and if a little slack is present it takes any potential stress of the terminations.
Thanks for your comments on the Statement One! .
thanx guys-talked to klaus and he said the same thing-ill cut them down this weekend
Not sure about speaker or IC's but I swear I hear a difference in the exact same digital IC's cut to different lengths. And generally, the 2m length sounds best to me... in my limited experience and unscientific methods. However, I did try to do the testing to the best of my ability with what I had... I'm willing to do it again sometime if anyone is interested.
-C
I think the quality of reterminating cut wires will have more of an effect than the change in length. Especially with SPDIF which likes a nice 75ohm impedance the whole length. See if the speaker wire has fancy crimped termination. If you cut it, use the same technique on the new cut ends. Crimping tools are expensive, but I'm getting close to buying a WBT crimper. I love their connectors.
Quote from: richidoo on April 02, 2008, 06:55:16 AM
I think the quality of reterminating cut wires will have more of an effect than the change in length. Especially with SPDIF which likes a nice 75ohm impedance the whole length. See if the speaker wire has fancy crimped termination. If you cut it, use the same technique on the new cut ends. Crimping tools are expensive, but I'm getting close to buying a WBT crimper. I love their connectors.
nothing fancy about my cables-unless you call extension cords fancy-lol
I've heard several places that a longer digital IC sounds better. "Reflections" are cited and I've never known what that meant. Recently, I read something that clarified it a tiny bit for me. Unlike normal audio carriers, s/pdif (I think this stands for Sony/Philips Digital InterFace) is actually a two-way standard, where clock signals accompany the data signal. The trouble and jitter that arise are largely related to distortions of the clock signals. The longer the cable, the further behind the reflected, erroneous signals are. If the incorrect signal lags far enough behind it is discarded. I have heard also that true 75-ohm connections are much better than standard RCA.
Analog Research (funny name, considering) offers a 16-foot, BNC-terminated (75 ohm) digital cable. Below link is a detailed explanation:
http://www.analogresearch-technology.net/ubyte.html (http://www.analogresearch-technology.net/ubyte.html)
As to speaker cables, I thought shorter was generally thought to be better. The digital cable comparison wouldn't make much sense here. I thought longer speaker cables equated to less damping factor at the speaker and that amplifier damping factor by itself is meaningless since the cable is a big part of the actual damping factor seen by the speaker. I actually have a long term dream to have the subs in my Definitions driven by pro monos with long, balanced ICs and 2' speaker cables. Shows what I know, eh? :D
I've always been told that digital IC's should be at least 1.5m. Has something to do with reflections and the time it takes the signal to travel vs the frequency being passed over the cable.
Bryan
These "reflections" are probably caused by phase issues within the signal. I think my favorite "audiophile" speaker cable myth is the one relating to skin effect, which has absolutely zero relavence in the audible frequency spectrum. Yet many high end speaker cable companies will try to sell you thin, exotic wire based on the premise that they will sound better than thicker copper wire due to skin effect.
Quote from: miklorsmith on April 02, 2008, 08:10:16 AM
Analog Research (funny name, considering) offers a 16-foot, BNC-terminated (75 ohm) digital cable.
What is so funny about it?
Sorry for coming to the party late, but someone just pointed this thread (and place) out to me last night.
Any questions? If not, I'll leave you all in peace.
..........Man.
Pat
Analog/digital, I'm funny like socks.
I have a question - how much loss do you expect with normal RCA connectors? I know BNCs are better but none of my gear is outfitted with them. Oh wait, my modded SB3 has one but the receiving DAC doesn't.
Another setup I have includes separate cables for clock and data signals. They don't have BNC connectors either. Technically this wouldn't be s/pdif? Would this setup benefit from two of your cables?
Hey, it is all analogue.
It is not a question of loss. It is a question of reflections. Real long story short......
We did a lot of research (and yes, it was by nature "analog") back in the early 90s on how much reflections that you could tolerate on an SPDIF interface, and not muck up the sound.
The answer we came up with is around -30 dB. Below that point, things all sounded about the same. (Translation: cables did not sound all that much different if all the impedances could be that tightly controlled.) In layman's terms: the refection can only be 3% of the value of the signal.
Our latest "not-so-top-secret" project has an output return loss of -38 dB. Around 1.25%.
Our cables usually run in the -32 to -34 dB range.
What is the output return loss of a typical RCA connector? They range in the 25-30 ohm range. That gives you a return loss in the -10 dB range. Which is what we have measured on many occasion for the skeptics.
Help any???
(Pssst........I can sell you a really good isolated BNC at cost.)
Pat
Have been uing Mapleshade products for some time. An active powercord and active speaker cables. The outter shield is powered by batteries. Now until one has actually auditioned their cables in their system your assumptions are just that.
The price of entry for their top models seem to be an issue. Havn't found a powercord yet that outperforms it. Same with the speaker cables. Works for me.
charles