You know what grinds my gears?

[richidoo]

What grinds my gears are the people who complain about price. either they are jealous or feel deprived.
      So do not piss in the wind realize your starting point and build the system accordingly.

chew on that awhile
charles

[topround]

I don't think people here are complaining about their rooms or the sound of their system. I think most people are pretty much content with their systems, people are complaining at how high the prices of audio gear have become. We all know the room has a lot to do with it, that is pretty much audio 101, and most people here are past that point. I just don't think that was the point of what people are commenting about.

and with that you know if you want an expensive piece of gear you have lots of wiggle room with price, since we all know lots of profit is built into the prices of these expensive pieces. I am sure people approach dealers and distributors directly making offers at big discounts.
Some may stand on the price but ultimatley they have to mover units, they have to get the cars off the lot.

[_Scotty_]

Hey Charles, I thought I lived in a condo building!!! Stop harshing my buzz man.
You are also being overly kind, which I appreciate but we have both heard better in many areas at the most recent CAF.
The problems I still have are just well compensated for.
 
As far as the cost of gear is concerned, when it costs as much as car and when a system can cost as much as house we are into the territory of exotic cars which also have prices that I can not afford to pay. If I am not angry about being unable to afford a Lambo or a Ferrari. Why should I be angry about being unable to afford a similarly priced audio system or a pair of speakers that cost as much as a good car?
Good sounding speakers that might be considered affordable are a little harder to find but they are out there. I heard a SVS UltraTowerMain speaker system at the 2014 CAF that I thought was pretty good sounding for the money at $2000 for the pair. 28 Hz-32 kHz (+/-3 dB) In the large room they were in, they sounded like the claimed bass extension was real and you could shave in the reflection off the piano gloss finish. Unreal cosmetics for the price point.

That one example of a good sounding,IMO YMMV, affordable loudspeaker and there have to be more. While the cabinet does not have an all aluminum monocoque construction neither does my pickup truck.  
Scotty

[jimbones]

I am not against high prices themselves. I just don't see any value in audio publications gushing over expensive gear as if it is a revelation. I like the value oriented companies that build good sounding equipment. Charles pointed out some fine stuff that I totally agree with. i know that PS Audio, Audioquest, Rega, Vanatoo, TWL and MWI make some very good equipment for a fair price. If I started a magazine I would grade equipment on a Performance-Price ratio. Value =Performance/Price.

[rollo]

    Topround I do not mean to pick on your gig but is Bologna worth $5 a LB ? The profit margin is insane % wise.
   I buy organic homemade Bologna for $4 a lb from an organic Butcher who makes his own. No union salary , no trucking costs , no big overhead. They make a fine quality product for less. Just like many audio manf's. I sought out the organic butcher got a quality product and saved money. One must do the same in audio. They are out there.
    Take shoes. ever try on ECCO shoes ? Yup $500to $750 a pair. Fit like no other shoe I ever tried on. Worth it ? To me yes to others no way Jose.
    There are luxury goods all about. Some make luxury gear eye candy [ Dan Dagastino anyone ]. Dan could make the same circuit in a black box however chooses not to. His prerogative.
     There is always NAD, Rotel, Marantz which offer great sound then there is Vinnie Rossi integrated.
     Profit is part of business. My bet there is more mark up on the common products we buy than audio gear.
     Scotty a very nice Condo, yup those open baffle subs are quite something eh ?
       Hey how about we start a list of great gear and classic combos for not much mulla. Hey Richidoo.


charles
     

[tmazz]

I think the frustration here is back when a lot of us started in this hobby you could get a top notch audio system for the price of a Z28 Camaro and now something that sits in about the relative spot along the audio quality spectrum costs the same as a Ferarri.

In 1988 I bought a pair of Thiels 3.5s, which were at the time their top of the line model for $2500 .If I index that price for inflation it would be $ 5036 in 2015 dollars. But Thiels current replacement for that model is the 3.7, which retails for $14k. So while inflation has upped the 1988 price by 101%, Thiels price for the speaker that occupies the same place in there model line up toady had increased by 460%. So the frustration we see here is that those of us that have been in this hobby for a long time know what we could get for a given amount of money back then and what we would need to pay to replicate that relative level of quality today  and even when adjusted for inflation, today's gear is many multiples more expensive that it was back in the good old days. And it is frustrating for those of us in a hobby that was all about continuously improving you system to see that we cannot even afford to replace our gear with items of similar quality, never mind higher quality.

I understand where the higher prices are coming from from a business ad economics perspective, but that doesn't mean it still doesn't frustrates me as a consumer.  

[jimbones]

Charles you're full of baloney 

[richidoo]

Those speakers look sweet Scotty. I like the splayed sides and opposing woofers, kinda like Devore Silverback, but a lot cheaper.

But $2000 is too low for really good speakers. There must be something wrong with them for that low price.  

Today I was reading about the new classD amps from Crown XLS. $300 for brand new stereo amp, with built in DSP, and people are saying they sound pretty good. This is not Behringer junk, this is 3 year transferrable warranty from Harman Intl.

There is plenty of value out there among new, recently introduced products. There is even more value at higher prices. The best value is usually at the highest prices because that's where the best is. The best will always have a market, and there's nothing like owning the best. It is unwise to believe that lower price is always better. Real value is often intangible.

[tmazz]

It is unwise to believe that lower price is always better. Real value is often intangible.

And this is a hobby that is about personal enjoyment. So while lower prices could mean better "Value" from a pure price perspective, if the peice does not float your boat, it is not really doing it's job, no matter how little, oe for that matter how much you paid for it. (because we all know that a higher price does not guarantee anything about pure performance, nor musical enjoyment.)

[topround]

Charles,
the price of food is pegged to the commodities market, when the price of the raw material goes up, then the price goes up for everyone.
Just like gasoline, it is a commodity, when the price goes up we all pay it.
So bologna is $5 a pound, turkey is now around $10 a pound, because of a shortage. cannot get around the laws of supply and demand, especially with commodities.

When a power cord costs $4100, well then....supply and  demand is not the law in effect, it is not the raw material price that is in effect, copper $3, silver $14, so the reason for the big price jump has to be something else.

What makes a power cord $4100, and amplifier $55K, speakers $200k, speaker cables 12K$ AND SO AN SO ON.

What it is...is what this thread is about...

Profit levels for the uber priced gear have increased tremendously, and while no one on this site owns or would buy any of that gear, the pricing of that gear has had an effect on the standard audio market that we frequent.
It has driven the midlevel stuff( the stuff we buy) into higher and higher prices. Also most of the chassis and speaker cabinets are made in China as well, why, to save money and increase profit.
Now we all love profit, profit is good, but what we have been experiencing is a squeezing of the regular audiophile out of the market, and the hobby has seen a decline in interest in the hobby, and we wonder why?
The answer is right in front of us.

If I were an audio manufacturer I would charge a lot too...because there are so few of us out there that I need to make my profit when I can, and in big lumps, because the amount of sales I have is low.

Where we used to be able to buy used gear in the 3 figures , we know have to buy used gear in the 4 figures, and any new gear we look at approaches or is in the 5 figures.
The economy sucks for most of us, and our hobby is getting more and more expensive, pushing us out...that is why so many of us are in this thread.

Also even the new start ups have to charge more for their gear, so they charge a lot and they have no resale value, so we lose again.
Every piece of gear I bought(with the exception of a few) was bought with resale value in mind, not that I wanted to sell it right away or flip it, but if I wanted to sell it would I lose my shirt, giving it away to a guy who knew no one else would make an offer.

I think we have  agreement here as to what grinds most people gears, if you do not understand the angst or the message than you should reread the posts.
I am sure most of the gear you have in your home was bought used or got on some sort of deal, so you should understand better than most why people are upset at the high prices, because you are one of us in actuality.

I am not trying to offend you, honestly, but trying to come off telling people to deal with the high prices is a bit dishonest,as you probably never paid full price for anything either. So give the high horse a rest, unless you want to stir the pot to keep the thread going, which I am in full favor of, in that case, keep it coming....good stuff
let's make some bandwidth

[_Scotty_]

I am a little unclear as to what constitutes too high a price for any given piece of gear. There seem to be products of all kinds at almost any price point imaginable. There are $50 power cords and $5000 and up power cords, to name one product category. For another example, there are DACs from Schiit Audio from the $99 Modi 2 to the unpronounceable Yggdrasil at $2299.
When does one decide that they are being pushed out of the hobby. It seems that this metric may be based on an individual and very personal value judgement.
I am probably the odd man out here. In my nearly 40years in this hobby I have purchased only three pieces of used gear, my Maplenoll Ariadne TT, a 20 year old Superphon DM 220 power amp for rebuilding, $250 on eBay and my Fisher FM 100 tuner which also had to be completely rebuilt.
I have also never purchased a piece of gear with any thought of its resale value on the used market.
If I had an audiophile membership card it would probably be revoked.
Scotty

[richidoo]

give the high horse a rest

No shut downs! People say what they want here.

[topround]

ok, lets keep it going!

[jimbones]

I think there was an audio publication around years ago that addressed modestly priced audio equipment. Forget the name.

[machinehead]

Keepitsexy.com