New Grover IC impressions (August 2007 graphite version)

[BillC]

I have been reading the Grover cable impressions and reactions with fascination and some surprise.  I've been holding back on commiting my impressions of my RCA 1 meter cables to print for a few reasons:

  -  they needed a good amount of break-in time
  -  I needed to find the time to swap around cables and experiment
  -  my main amplifier is out for modification (Hurricanes) and I am using a second system amp/speakers

Equipment in current use: Rega 25 turntable, Benz Glider cart, Black Cube phono stage, Modwright 9.0 SE preamp, modded Ming Da 805 SET amp, Ellis 1801b speakers.  I listen almost exclusively to vinyl.

Seeing the discussion thread I did want to provide some initial impressions (which may change when the main amp comes back...).   

Summary: the Grover Huffman RCA IC is spectacular.  I have never seen an IC so capable on bass, mids, and the high end.  The high end extension, air, and detail may be the best I have heard - definitely on my system, and perhaps among the many systems I have heard.  The bass is tremendous: clear, powerful, rich, dymanic.  I can see that with the notable high frequency detail, there is perhaps the potential for the cable to seem light in this mids; but after careful listening, for my system, I have found that the mids are not recessed at all.  I am simply not used to hearing as much high frequency information - it is not bright, or our of balance on my system, and really improves the sense of space associated with good recordings.  Also, it has found better balance with more playing time.

I agree fully with bixby on the pro's: quiet, dynamic, great low end, tremendous sense of space.  I disagree a bit on the concerns: I don't think the mids are recessed, as I said above I am just not used to hearing as much high end detail as the cable conveys.  I listened extensively to Duke Ellington's records and found the upper midrange brass to be very good - both rich and intense (depending on playing style).  The cymbals are crystal clear, and ranged from delicate to crashing, but very present and sufficiently weighty.  As for transients, I hear amazing high frequency speed and clarity. I did hear more fingerboard mechanical sound on guitar work, but not unrealistically so.  Again, the abilty to convey those high frequency sounds effectively is the reason I hear them more...

Other cables I swapped in that were in the same price range as the Grover's immediately resulted in less bass weight, and the loss of the almost unconstrained high end.  After a several songs I went back to Grover's cable; because it felt like the other cables were "filtered".  I tried some more expensive cables, and found them very similar to Grover's cable, but, Grover had the edge on high frequency extension. 

My concerns were:
With the improved clarity and presence of the high frequency information, I felt that - relatively - the mids seemed to recede a small bit (emphasis on small).  But I found that as the cable broke in further, this effect seemed to dissipate.  It reminded me of another high end cable I use that seemed to take forever to break in; the cable just kept getting better and better and the balance continued to improve, for 200+ hours.  This is what I am hearing from the Grover IC's.  Also, I noted some distinct congestion in mids and high frequency information during the first 40 hours or so of playing, but this quickly disappeared completely.  Last, but not least: I purchased two pairs of the RCA's and initially used one for phono to preamp, and one from preamp to power amp.  As someone noted previously, this did seem to tip up the high end.  I removed the phono to preamp cable and re-installed my favorite, keeping the Grover preamp to power amp cable in place, and found a better balance.  Perhaps with more break in time this effect would subsided, as I am seeing in the remaining cable...   I can understand why those with digital source systems might find this cable too bright or edgy; its high frequency resolution could illuminate many of the alleged issues associated with red book CD playback.

Overall, I am very favorably impressed with this cable.  I will update my report when my newly modded Hurricanes come back.   

Grover, thank you for the fantastic interconnects ! 

Bill C

[snavysealssg]

There seems to be two diverse views of the new Grover S Graphite version cables:
1. Too bright
2. Just right

Have tried one pair of cable between my DAC and integrated amplifier, I have to say that the cables in my system are just right.

First, a little background on my system:

Laptop > Z-Sleeved USB cable > HagUSB USB-SPDIF convertor > DH Labs D-75 cable with Eichmann RCAs > Bel Canto DAC 2 > Grover S Graphite RCA > Hypex UCD400AD integrated amp with shunt resistor passive volume control, fully wired with DH Labs solid core silver wiring for all signal cables > Shunyata Andromeda speaker cables > Acoustic Zen Adagios slanted baffle version.

Power cables:
Laptop - Van Den Hul Mainsstream
DAC - Audience Powerchord
Amp - Silver Audio Wattmaster

Interconnect that I have previously tried are as follows:

Van Den Hul The Second - Excellent low end extension, soft highs, smeared midrange. The smearing seems to occur in the upper midrange, such that female voices and higher registers of the piano sound congested and glary. At the same time, the highs seem a little muted compared to the other cables, but on its own, sounds quite good. The background is really black, and sound literally pops out of the blackness. Macrodynamics, meaning large scale explosions of drums have less impact, suggesting that this cable excels at microdynamics but is macrodynamically challenged. I would have been happy with this cable but for the upper midrange glare which leads to listening fatigue.

Acrolink A2200 Mk II - The midrange on this cable seems recessed, and dynamics are a bit challenged, with drums having less impact than other cables. The music is just less exciting to listen to, with instruments and vocals sounding laid back and soft. I guess some people may prefer this softness for easy listening but this sound bores me. The bass on this cable also sounds slightly rounded, with less leading edge impact, resulting in what I term "soft" bass.

Grover S 1st iteration black - This cable is bright and edgy in my system, with a tipped up tonality.

Grover S 2nd iteration black - This cable was much nicer than the 1st version, with toned down highs, great tonality and excellent performance from midrange down. However, I was getting some midrange harshness that resulted in listening fatigue.

Grover S Graphite - These cables are the best I have heard so far. While I know a lot of other users have experienced a hot treble, I found that my treble has never been smoother, even fresh out of the box. I am now able to listen to non-audiophile CDs without cringing in anticipation of harshness or glare. It is still not close to a live performance where you feel 100% relaxed even when the volume is high, but I'm guessing that my other components may not be up to the standard in that regard. I'm planning to get some tubes into my system eventually, but currently financial constraints abound due to my newborn. The highs of this cable are as Grover said, perfect.

One my reference songs is "What A Girl Wants" by Christina Aguilera. This song is great for testing systems in my opinion because it is recorded a bit hot as are all pop CDs, it tests for correct left and right channels orientation as the first 10 seconds are mono left, then mono right only, and it has a triangle being struck during these first 10 seconds. I noticed that the triangle sounds very different depending on the quality of the system and the cables. The best rendition of this triangle was on a dealer demo system featuring Dynaudio Temptations, Plinius CDP and amps. The triangle on that system sounded rich, yet extended with no fatigue factor. On my system with the Grover Graphites, this triangle was even more extended, but not as rich, though I believe that is a system wide disadvantage rather than a sin of the Grover cable. Bear in mind the Dynaudio speakers alone costs more than my entire setup. The bass beats which provide the foundation for the rest of the song are very strong, indicating rich midbass but still it does not overpower the song. The Christina's vocal tonality sounds just right without the tipped up steely tone that I hear with the other cables. Here my system outperforms the Dynaudio dealer demo as that system was much brighter.

Another favourite reference CD of mine are the Mozart Piano concertos by Ingrid Haebler. Some of the tracks have a slight midrange glare that show up any deficiencies in cables. With Grover S Graphites, the piano concertos sound sublime, and most important, without fatigue inducing glare. The mid to lower registers of the piano are also rich in tonality, compared with the thinner version I hear with all the other cables.

My bass reference CD is the JB Project by Brian Bromberg. Track 8 - 'Brombo' has a really fast paced drumming session that is a sonic sight to behold. The Grover S Graphites allow the transients on this track to develop fully and sound really realistic, while providing a strong low frequency foundation to rock the house.

I found that with all my CDs, audiophile or pop, I was able to listen at a louder volume before fatigue sets in, indicating that distortion in my system has been reduced. This reduction in distortion does not come at the expense of resolution.

IME, Grover's constant tweaking has allowed him to incorporate user feedback to produce what I believe are amongst the finest interconnects available, price notwithstanding. With the Grover S Graphites in my system, I now consider my interconnects to be the strongest link in the chain, and will focus upgrading efforts on other areas.

[richidoo]

Nice writeup Brandon.

[jrebman]

I'll echo what Rich said -- nice posts.

I have to say that I'm starting to come to the same conclusions myself.

Things are really coming together here and the problem of recessed mids in my system has definitely been cured.  In fact, vocals are clean as they've ever been, and then some.  The high end has smoothed out quite a bit, and any raspy edges that remain are the same ones that have always been there -- and that's the multiplayer's fault, and that won't go away until it gets modded.

Overall, my system just seems to be getting better on an almost daily basis, and considering that the tubes and capacitors in my amp are still a very long way from being fully seasoned, and system setup is far from optimal at this point, well, I guess I'll just be that much more pleased when it all comes together.

Thanks for the thorough summary of your experiences.  Oh, and welcome!

-- Jim

[mboldda1]

how does the grover s graphite compare to the last white version?

[Nick B]

I haven't been able to put many hours on the graphite's as I currently have a house guest, but they continue to sound excellent, especially considering I am breaking in the SP Tech 2.1's. The resolution and lack of grain is much appreciated.

[richidoo]

It's good to hear the comments now a week later that the charcoals are sounding better with more break in. I have to admit after the first night of playing soft music I listened to normal stuff the next day or so and it was a little much for me in the top end. It was clear and grain free, but just overhwleming treble detail that distracted from the mids and overall listening experience. When I switched back to white to take a break I felt a relief, but also a sadness that the extreme treble extension was also gone. I missed it. I had about 10-15 hours max on it then, so based on your experiences here it was likely just not broken in enough yet. In the past with whites and black versions I never noticed a big change during break in so I assumed it was getting close and Tony's and others' opinions about hot treble might be affecting me to. I am excited to think that they will smooth out and I can get that treble clarity back. Back on the stove they go. Soon the altmann DAC will be here and I can eliminate the SB as a potential source of the high end glare. Dr Connelly, and RichardS how are you guys liking your grover digital ICs? I'm in the market - I know Shane has some good ones on the block too.

snavysealssg Brandon, you bought in the first GB, did you get yours upgraded to the latest "charcoal" spec? How'd that work out? I have three pair of whites still, but I am growing attached to them, not sure I can send them in for bionic makeover... hehe
Thanks,
Rich

[grover]

Guys, I'm so pleased. The wonderful sounds I hear from these cables others hear also. I would like to clarify the Grover S line level cables are not to be used for turntable to phono amp. They are only designed to be used for line level applications. They indeed will be bright with this application. I have developed a very special extremely small signal cable for phono applications. It incorporates a very special carbon nickel shield that interferes minimally with the .5 to 5 millivolt signal. I sincerely believe it's the finest phono cable available.

[snavysealssg]

Rich,

I bought a SPDIF cable in the first GB, not the line level interconnects. My line level interconnects were purchased directly from Grover (WITHOUT the tantalising Audionervosa discount!!!) late last year, which were then progressively upgraded by the man himself.

IME, my 1.5m DH Labs D-75 terminated with Eichmann Copper RCAs outperforms the Grover SPDIF interconnect. While the Grovers give a beguiling smoothness to the midrange, I get the sense that there is some minor smearing of the midrange which is not present in the DH Labs cable. In my system, that leads to some perceived roughness in the upper midrange as well as some softness to the bass. I don't think its a burn-in issue as the cables have been in use for the past few months. For now, I have gone back to using the DH Labs cable, which give the best results in my system. I wonder if Grover is also making improvements to the SPDIF cable. All the attention seems to be focused on his line level interconnects and speaker cables.

I must add that of all the people I have dealt with in the audio business, Grover strikes me as someone who genuinely cares about how users enjoy his products. I believe for him, its not about the money. For the price he charges, Grover must make his money some other way while the cable business is more of a hobby, sharing the fruits of his vision with the masses (us!)

Thanks Grover!

It's good to hear the comments now a week later that the charcoals are sounding better with more break in. I have to admit after the first night of playing soft music I listened to normal stuff the next day or so and it was a little much for me in the top end. It was clear and grain free, but just overhwleming treble detail that distracted from the mids and overall listening experience. When I switched back to white to take a break I felt a relief, but also a sadness that the extreme treble extension was also gone. I missed it. I had about 10-15 hours max on it then, so based on your experiences here it was likely just not broken in enough yet. In the past with whites and black versions I never noticed a big change during break in so I assumed it was getting close and Tony's and others' opinions about hot treble might be affecting me to. I am excited to think that they will smooth out and I can get that treble clarity back. Back on the stove they go. Soon the altmann DAC will be here and I can eliminate the SB as a potential source of the high end glare. Dr Connelly, and RichardS how are you guys liking your grover digital ICs? I'm in the market - I know Shane has some good ones on the block too.

snavysealssg Brandon, you bought in the first GB, did you get yours upgraded to the latest "charcoal" spec? How'd that work out? I have three pair of whites still, but I am growing attached to them, not sure I can send them in for bionic makeover... hehe
Thanks,
Rich

[shep]

Grover or Rich. I guess it's time for me to send mine in. Can you pm me a mailing address? Thanks
Shep

[richidoo]

Here you go, shep.

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=440.msg4264#msg4264

[bixby]

I have had a chance to listen to my Grover S xlrs further and have confirmed some of my first impressions.  First off I must say this is only one man's opinion and it is with my ears and my system.  I feel this has to be reiterated here since others will undoubtedly hear something different in their system and with their ears.  The Grovers are a good cable and do represent a decent value in today's cable market.  I am glad to have had the opporutnity to try them.

Now with that out of the way, I have to say my ears and system are disappointed.  The Grovers do lots of things well, but there are a few things that seem missing in my system.  I cannot get a total handle on it, but my impression is that the highs and mids seem to be missing a tone unique to instruments in those spectra.

For example, the guitar strings on the self titled Nickle Creek cd seem to have good fret sounds but lack the right midrange body and tone.  It is like the sustain of a strings vibration is cut short in one part of the frequency range.   Also on this CD the violin seems to be missing that same part.  No complaints about the bass part of the spectrum.  Same issues on my Chieftains CD.

On a Patricia Barber CD for example the cymbals lack the brassy sound I know is there.  The tick of a cymbal strike is there along with some part of the high frequencies but the tone again or body is lacking.  This same effect is what I also noticed on piano.  On my African Magic cd by Abdullah Ibraham (Dollar Brand to some) the piano is really affected.  Good lower sustain but not in the upper mids, they seem MIA.

On the Sting CD, I immediately noticed his typical nasal pitch became even more so.  What really was disconcerting was the lack of hall ambience and left to right coverage when background singers came in.  I had noticed that on a particular cut the spatial effects I used to fall into was missing.  Kind of like my first impression of something in the mids being recessed.

Well I have rambled enough, the Grovers go in the classified area at AN first so if anyone would like to get a pair of minty fresh Grover XLRs, you can still get the group discount.

Now comes the hard part, what to get next.  Anyone have a set of Pulsars in XLR they would like to trade for an RCA set?  Any suggestions on what to try next are appreciated.  I am inclined to go the cccc / ohno copper route since I like my Luminous on my upper connections of my speakers.

cheers

[richidoo]

JPS SC3 is $1k/meter for SC3 RCAs. Art Dudley's recent "hyperbolated" review echos my experience. Audition with caution, you will want them.

[LKdog]

Interesting to read the different impressions and the unique system configurations.

I think, like any component that does so many things well, that it comes down to synergy and personal preference.

I have not had as much chance to listen recently and have had some other cables sent to me to try out also so taking a break and then going back to listen to the Grovers to compare will be interesting.

I would say that I am certainly pleased overall and feel they are an extremely good value.
I appreciate that this forum and the Group Buy provided the impetus to try them out.

[dangerbird]

Well,, I've got mine "burned in",I hope,,I'm not sure that I can add much,but for me,the detail,especially in the mids and highs are very good.I've added some things to my system,such as a tt and actually moved things a bit from one room to the other,so I have to rely on other ears on ocassion. With that said,and in summation, slightly to the bright side of nuetral.I,m NOT disappointed at all and would highly reccommend them.

I just re-read my post,,,,I hope this makes sense to someone,thanks for the opportunity to obtain these cables,they won't be going anywhere,anytime. 

BTW--anyone ever try/have his phono cables?