New Info Discussed, Class A, AB, B, and C operation/mode

[steve]

Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

I had a hunch you still had that Modi 2. Glad you were able to improve it to such a great extent.

Nick

Hi Nick,

Yes, I still have the upgraded Modi 2. I am still waiting to hear a better DAC. (The original,
non-upgraded version is not very good, but I got it for free, so why not tweak?)

Cymbals in take 5 outtakes are unbelievable. Checking with many selections, everything
from highs to bass sounds live. Woody sounds very woody. Brass brass, strings strings,
double bass sounds like natural, live double bass. Dynamics, transients, musicality,
sound stage, PRAT in spades.

After reading all the stories, the hype, the weaknesses in digital, and then reading how upgrading
the lowly modi 2 immensely improved the sound, that does raise questions.

I never thought it was possible either because the marketing is always the digital, the mic, speakers,
room, etc etc. Yet we know that analog gear is rarely even close to accurate/natural through
specialized listening tests, in absolute terms.

For newbies. What Nobody mentions are the analog stages inside the expensive DAC.
A company spends thousands of dollars on an analog preamplifier and amplifier
(which are not accurate) and then spends less than $30.00 on the DAC's analog stage(s) parts
expecting top notch quality sound?

Consider just the electrolytic caps in these high priced DACs/electronics.
The DA of an electrolytic is ~7; although I have read 5% to 15%. That is a lot of
signal messed up. A polypropylene cap has a DA of only ~0,02%. Big big difference.

Yet, the electrolytic capacitor is routinely used in all electronics, including expensive DAC's
analog stages. DAC Tube stages are no better.

If they changed the electrolytic capacitors to poly caps, imagine how improved,
wonderful they would sound, maybe. (There are still other factors, parts quality,
part values etc as well.)

Now it is ok to have some electrolytic caps IF they are right next to the rectifier, far away from
the musical signal. Space may require electrolytics, but Not near the musical signal.
Attached below is an internal photo of a DAC. Notice all the black cylinders, electrolytic capacitors.

Polypropylene caps are largely responsible that I and others can detect 1 part in less than 4.1 million
change in the lab system (now at home); quite extraordinary. Using 20log equation, that is -132db down.
The ear is that sensitive. No wonder we notice sonic differences between components.

cheers

steve

[Nick B]

Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

I had a hunch you still had that Modi 2. Glad you were able to improve it to such a great extent.

Nick

Hi Nick,

Yes, I still have the upgraded Modi 2. I am still waiting to hear a better DAC. (The original,
non-upgraded version is not very good, but I got it for free, so why not tweak?)

Cymbals in take 5 outtakes are unbelievable. Checking with many selections, everything
from highs to bass sounds live. Woody sounds very woody. Brass brass, strings strings,
double bass sounds like natural, live double bass. Dynamics, transients, musicality,
sound stage, PRAT in spades.

After reading all the stories, the hype, the weaknesses in digital, and then reading how upgrading
the lowly modi 2 immensely improved the sound, that does raise questions.

I never thought it was possible either because the marketing is always the digital, the mic, speakers,
room, etc etc. Yet we know that analog gear is rarely even close to accurate/natural through
specialized listening tests, in absolute terms.

For newbies. What Nobody mentions are the analog stages inside the DAC are just as far off from being
accurate/natural, and just as difficult to design as a preamplifier and/or amplifier, any analog stage.
To think that one can spend thousands of dollars on a system while the DAC's analog stage(s) costs
less than $30.00 is pretty insulting.

Consider just the electrolytic caps in these high priced DACs/electronics.
The DA of an electrolytic is ~7; although I have read 5% to 15%. That is a lot of
signal messed up. A polypropylene cap has a DA of only ~0,02%. Big big difference.

Yet, the electrolytic capacitor is routinely used in all electronics, including expensive DAC's
analog stages. DAC Tube stages are no better.

If they changed the electrolytic capacitors to poly caps, imagine how improved,
wonderful they would sound, maybe. (There are still other factors, parts quality,
part values etc as well.)

Now it is ok to have some electrolytic caps IF they are right next to the rectifier, far away from
the musical signal. Space may require electrolytics, but Not near the musical signal.
Attached below is an internal photo of a DAC. Notice all the black cylinders, electrolytic capacitors.

Polypropylene caps are largely responsible that I and others can detect 1 part in less than 4.1 million
change in the lab system (now at home); quite extraordinary. Using 20log equation, that is -132db down.
The ear is that sensitive. No wonder we notice sonic differences between components.

cheers

steve

Thanks, Steve. Quite interesting what can be done if one is knowledgeable, open minded, creative and willing to spend a bit to upgrade crucial parts.

Nick

[steve]

Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

I had a hunch you still had that Modi 2. Glad you were able to improve it to such a great extent.

Nick

Hi Nick,

Yes, I still have the upgraded Modi 2. I am still waiting to hear a better DAC. (The original,
non-upgraded version is not very good, but I got it for free, so why not tweak?)

Cymbals in take 5 outtakes are unbelievable. Checking with many selections, everything
from highs to bass sounds live. Woody sounds very woody. Brass brass, strings strings,
double bass sounds like natural, live double bass. Dynamics, transients, musicality,
sound stage, PRAT in spades.

After reading all the stories, the hype, the weaknesses in digital, and then reading how upgrading
the lowly modi 2 immensely improved the sound, that does raise questions.

I never thought it was possible either because the marketing is always the digital, the mic, speakers,
room, etc etc. Yet we know that analog gear is rarely even close to accurate/natural through
specialized listening tests, in absolute terms.

For newbies. What Nobody mentions are the analog stages inside the DAC are just as far off from being
accurate/natural, and just as difficult to design as a preamplifier and/or amplifier, any analog stage.
To think that one can spend thousands of dollars on a system while the DAC's analog stage(s) costs
less than $30.00 is pretty insulting.

Consider just the electrolytic caps in these high priced DACs/electronics.
The DA of an electrolytic is ~7; although I have read 5% to 15%. That is a lot of
signal messed up. A polypropylene cap has a DA of only ~0,02%. Big big difference.

Yet, the electrolytic capacitor is routinely used in all electronics, including expensive DAC's
analog stages. DAC Tube stages are no better.

If they changed the electrolytic capacitors to poly caps, imagine how improved,
wonderful they would sound, maybe. (There are still other factors, parts quality,
part values etc as well.)

Now it is ok to have some electrolytic caps IF they are right next to the rectifier, far away from
the musical signal. Space may require electrolytics, but Not near the musical signal.
Attached below is an internal photo of a DAC. Notice all the black cylinders, electrolytic capacitors.

Polypropylene caps are largely responsible that I and others can detect 1 part in less than 4.1 million
change in the lab system (now at home); quite extraordinary. Using 20log equation, that is -132db down.
The ear is that sensitive. No wonder we notice sonic differences between components.

cheers

steve

Thanks, Steve. Quite interesting what can be done if one is knowledgeable, open minded, creative and willing to spend a bit to upgrade crucial parts.

Nick

Unfortunately, the price of upgrade rose. I believe I mentioned ~ $550 tag a year ago. Well, thanks to inflation,
better parts, a better upgrade, the price is roughly $800. Having tested for some time now, every aspect sounds
optimum.

However, since others have fuller and leaner sounding systems, I am testing a power supply with 2 switches
that allows one to hear:

1. my optimum setting DAC,

2. or adjust the tonal balance switches to match a slightly fuller

3. or slightly leaner system than mine

without any loss of fidelity. Whether this option is that effective vs costs will be up
to the customers. Hope my audio friends solidify an opinion when they visit in the coming months.

Cheers

steve

[steve]

Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

I have to eat a little crow concerning the DAC.

I have purchased and updated my dac to a Mimir by Schiit. I have tweaked it by
connecting all copper audio output jacks, and tweaked the filtering capacitors
in the power supply.

Even in stock form, absolutely love the Mimir and even had to tweak the speaker
crossovers. Absolutely incredible sound, and more natural than the Modi 2.

Here is a selection I think you will like for checking. Terry Bozzio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4P4luHdFwA

cheers
steve

[Nick B]

Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

I have to eat a little crow concerning the DAC.

I have purchased and updated my dac to a Mimir by Schiit. I have tweaked it by
connecting all copper audio output jacks, and tweaked the filtering capacitors
in the power supply.

Even in stock form, absolutely love the Mimir and even had to tweak the speaker
crossovers. Absolutely incredible sound, and more natural than the Modi 2.

Here is a selection I think you will like for checking. Terry Bozzio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4P4luHdFwA

cheers
steve

Thanks, Steve! That's the largest setup I've ever seen. And he sure is talented!

Nick

[steve]

Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

I have to eat a little crow concerning the DAC.

I have purchased and updated my dac to a Mimir by Schiit. I have tweaked it by
connecting all copper audio output jacks, and tweaked the filtering capacitors
in the power supply.

Even in stock form, absolutely love the Mimir and even had to tweak the speaker
crossovers. Absolutely incredible sound, and more natural than the Modi 2.

Here is a selection I think you will like for checking. Terry Bozzio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4P4luHdFwA

cheers
steve

Thanks, Steve! That's the largest setup I've ever seen. And he sure is talented!

Nick

Yes, Nick, quite impressive. The above is a torture test for audio systems.
I remember reading the Caltech research/study some time earlier that
determined that some 40% of a cymbals energy is above 20khz. I checked
and found this tidbit, info from Reddit+1.

"Key points:

    Proportion above 20 kHz: ~40% for a cymbal crash Reddit+1.

    Measurement range: Extended beyond 100 kHz, with no sign of energy
dropping off Reddit+1.

    Comparison to other instruments: Much higher than most others
(e.g., muted trumpet ~2%, violin ~0.04%) Mono & Stereo.

    Practical implication: Even though humans can't hear above 20 kHz,
this ultrasonic energy can still affect sound quality perception and
may be important for high-fidelity recording and reproduction PS Audio.

In short, a cymbal's "above 20 kHz" energy is not just a small tail —
it's a major part of its spectral content, extending far into the
ultrasonic range."


At least two studies, mri of brain, and 5 year peer reviewed work, substantiated
that above 20khz does influence what we perceive, but only if perceptive music
is present.

I performed research some 30 years ago in which I adjusted the -1db response from
200khz to 150khz, which was immediately perceived; cleaner, attacks, etc.

Below 20hz also counts. Attached is phase shifting related to frequency response
deviations.

[rollo]

Wonder what META AI says.

charles

[steve]

Wonder what META AI says.

charles

I found Grok to be excellent and will learn and use it. On the other hand
I found OpenAi arguing with me, claiming to use real science; which "science" I found
to be quite questionable, and is pushed in some circles.

--------------
With Grok, I was able to get my theoretical RIAA values to within 0,0025db. Of course my instruments
are only 0,5% tolerance. Still, using some 0,25% resistors, I was able to explore the sonics a little by
varying R1.

cheers

steve

[Nick B]

Glad that's working out for you, Steve. I really don't know how many major AI applications are out there and which are best. My guess would be one of the better ones would be the one that Elon Musk was developing.

[steve]

Glad that's working out for you, Steve. I really don't know how many major AI applications are out there and which are best. My guess would be one of the better ones would be the one that Elon Musk was developing.

Nice comment Nick. Elon Musk's Ai is Grok and I just love it. Evidently
others as well as it is often overloaded and tough to get "online".

Really like it for electronics design etc.

I have tried a couple of others, but my conscience cannot recommend them.

cheers

steve

[Nick B]

Hi Steve,

I will start using Grok and see if I like it. I've heard very good things about that particular AI

NICK