I got kind of carried away over at AC about this. I definately want to try this tweak. If they are so good, who not a group buy? It's cheap enough.Thoughts?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87653.0
Hi shep,
Evan brought this to our attention over at this thread:
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=2646
I agree, a group buy would be fun, especially after the RCA line level version comes out.
Rich
Sorry, cross post. I didn't catch the first one. Anyway I would definately be open to a set.
I've been fooling around making my own as per the DIY thread. So far every concoction has delivered a change. Solid core livens it up while the stranded mellowed the sound out. I had some Siltech silver/gold Gen 4 conductors about 6" long looped it and twisted together, so far this one sounds best.
If just adding some wire makes a difference the ground enhancer which is designed properly is a must try. 30 day money back trial. Ordered a pair.
charles
Shep I sent you a PM
I guess it's a bit naughty of me to suggest a group buy when the only thing I can contribute is some money and feed-back! I'm too damn lazy to make these and don't want to pay 55$ for two pairs (minimum oversea's order). I'm intruiged by the use of other type of wire as Charles is suggesting but would be quite happy to stick to the OCC solid core on offer. If it on fact too bright, that can be rectified, although some have said this settles down after a while; which makes sense of a sort. Anyone like me, who has laboured thru Blackgate run-in can happily accept just about anything, as long as the result is credible (which seems to be unanimous for this tweak so far)
Quote from: rollo on November 21, 2010, 08:19:57 AM
I've been fooling around making my own as per the DIY thread. So far every concoction has delivered a change. Solid core livens it up while the stranded mellowed the sound out. I had some Siltech silver/gold Gen 4 conductors about 6" long looped it and twisted together, so far this one sounds best.
If just adding some wire makes a difference the ground enhancer which is designed properly is a must try. 30 day money back trial. Ordered a pair.
charles
Rollo Enhancers. :thumb:
Tried some Litz wire approx. 12" long did the loop and tied the ends together. Works fine. A bit of an improvement over the solid core and stranded home made versions. Wunderbar !
EVS is swamped with orders so we may have to wait a bit to receive the Enhancers. When the price is fair the orders fly in. A lesson to be learned by all Manfs.
charles
Can we please have some consensus about this new tweak from those who have tried it thoroughly ?
Quote from: shep on November 26, 2010, 08:59:18 AM
Can we please have some consensus about this new tweak from those who have tried it thoroughly ?
I am putting together an order now and will let you know what I think as soon get them up and running.
Quote from: shep on November 26, 2010, 08:59:18 AM
Can we please have some consensus about this new tweak from those who have tried it thoroughly ?
Shep, they Work. More detail,tighter bass,Imaging is more enhanced . etc... etc... etc...
Shep - Consensus? What is this thing you speak of? :rofl:
For me, they are a minor but effective tweak... on par with perhaps the Alan Maher CBFs... likely to have a different level of impact in different systems to different ears. Can't say I've heard (nor heard of) any detrimental affects at all and certainly a lot of positive feedback.
You can find a lot more info over on AC in this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87653.0
"You can find a lot more info over on AC in this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87653.0
" Been there done that. I'm trying to get a more concise reading on this. So far it's a bit vague. Sure i realize it will work differently on dif. systems. i guess concensus was the wrong word!
Yeah, ask 10 audiophiles the same question and you are likely to get 15 different answers. :rofl:
I'm not sure this consensus thing is within the realm of the possible. :roll:
Shep, from the googling I've done and email exchange with Ric, I'd say opinion ranges from "these things can't possibly do anything" or "I hear nothing" to a far more dramatic impact for some. Personally, I'm not hearing dramatic but I do believe they offer improvements in musicality, soundstage and bass. Now, to be honest, if someone were to have snuck into my home and installed these, I would likely have chalked it up to a very good day in my AC grid and hoped for the same the next day.
Quote from: mdconnelly on November 26, 2010, 05:58:04 PM
Now, to be honest, if someone were to have snuck into my home and installed these, I would likely have chalked it up to a very good day in my AC grid and hoped for the same the next day.
Which is still not a bad amount of improvement for a $30 investment.
i want! can't we whip up a group buy? Like I said I'm not up to spending 60$ right now, having splurged on KCI Silkworms and a major cdp upgrade in the near future. I like the discription of thinking it's a good day on the grid. That makes a lot of sense and I hear that easily here where the voltage can dip down to 200 v on a bad day. Today being a case in point. We have our first snow fall and of course everyone has turned up the wick.
Two 6" pieces of 16 ga automotive primary wire gets you pretty close. That ain't $60.
Geez, send me a dollar and I'll mail you two 6" sections any day of the week. :drool:
Quote from: TooManyToys on November 27, 2010, 03:54:03 AM
Two 6" pieces of 16 ga automotive primary wire gets you pretty close. That ain't $60.
Geez, send me a dollar and I'll mail you two 6" sections any day of the week. :drool:
I think he's in Australia.
I don't know where he's from. Even for an Australian he has the oddest written English I've ever seen! I almost bought his stepped pots, the ones that plug directly into the amp, a few years ago. Very good i believe. I got something even better...from Australia. Given the difficulty people are having at AC to duplicate his design, I think I will wait a while. Thanks for the offer though.
Quote from: shep on November 27, 2010, 04:55:46 AM
I don't know where he's from. Even for an Australian he has the oddest written English I've ever seen! I almost bought his stepped pots, the ones that plug directly into the amp, a few years ago. Very good i believe. I got something even better...from Australia. Given the difficulty people are having at AC to duplicate his design, I think I will wait a while. Thanks for the offer though.
Shep, I wrote that thinking you were in Australia
Shep, I doubt Ric would offer much in the way of a discount on a group buy. He's already swamped with orders and at $25/pair when ordering two pair, it's a pretty nice deal. While I suspect parts cost is minimal, it has to take some time to put these together not to mention all the time spent dealing with email from the likes of us :rofl:
But, contact him and see what he'll do...
you're right of course. How did I get to Australia? I live in France.
Quote from: shep on November 27, 2010, 07:36:37 AM
you're right of course. How did I get to Australia? I live in France.
Sorry , but close enough to no one :rofl:
actually you are close to the truth.. there are exactly 11 people in my hamlet at last count.
Well we are not nuts. It appears that Genesis and VMPS are going to supply either the Audio Prism or EVS ground enhancers with new speaker purchases.
Now the question is wether the Audioprisms are better designed than the EVS. If any of these are better [ which they should be] than my homemade babies I am in hook line and sinker.
Now this whole ground plane thingie. would a star ground system for every component in the system achieve the same or more of the benifit found usuing " a ground plane " for the speakers? Or just solder a wire from the driver basket to the neg. terminal as a ground plane.
Acoustic Revive makes an expensive ground conditioner that is very affective. Could these be similiar devices used as ground planes.
The nervosa is perking again.
charles
Quote from: rollo on November 27, 2010, 11:27:02 AM
Well we are not nuts. It appears that Genesis and VMPS are going to supply either the Audio Prism or EVS ground enhancers with new speaker purchases.
Now the question is wether the Audioprisms are better designed than the EVS. If any of these are better [ which they should be] than my homemade babies I am in hook line and sinker.
Now this whole ground plane thingie. would a star ground system for every component in the system achieve the same or more of the benifit found usuing " a ground plane " for the speakers? Or just solder a wire from the driver basket to the neg. terminal as a ground plane.
Acoustic Revive makes an expensive ground conditioner that is very affective. Could these be similiar devices used as ground planes.
The nervosa is perking again.
charles
Let your Nervosa perk. I am happy with my results.
For those who are happy with these: Did you experience a breakin period and, if so, how long?
Mine have about six hours on them and the HF is sibilant and brittle. I hate breaking in anything that requires listening to the process :(
Phil
In one of the AC articles, BudP commented on the break in adventure, iirc.
Shep, do you have any CAT 5?
Someone over on AC said they got an appreciable difference using that in 2 one foot lengths of one twisted pair each.
If they don't work out here I will send you mine.
IF they ever get here.
Den
Oh, well hummmmm ..... if it's France, then two dollars.
:rofl:
Two dollars would cover the cost of shipping, but honesty, any auto or auto electronics shop would probably give the length of wire to him for free.
Oui ,Oui
Got mine yesterday and put them on. Now my amp is balanced and my preamp inverts, so I put them on the + speaker terminals. I tried them quickly on the - but it seemed to sound just a little better on the +. Definitely a huge difference over not having them on at all.
Yes, they perked up the details and spaciousness quite a bit. The top end is now too bright and a tad hard, but it seemed to smooth out a bit after 3-4 hours of play. There's still more to go. If it doesn't calm down in another day I'm going to try the following.
Leave one pair on the woofer connections to the speaker and move the tweeter pair to the back of the amp.
We'll see.
Quote from: BobM on November 28, 2010, 05:46:35 AM
Got mine yesterday and put them on. Now my amp is balanced and my preamp inverts, so I put them on the + speaker terminals. I tried them quickly on the - but it seemed to sound just a little better on the +. Definitely a huge difference over not having them on at all.
Yes, they perked up the details and spaciousness quite a bit. The top end is now too bright and a tad hard, but it seemed to smooth out a bit after 3-4 hours of play. There's still more to go. If it doesn't calm down in another day I'm going to try the following.
Leave one pair on the woofer connections to the speaker and move the tweeter pair to the back of the amp.
We'll see.
I had the opposite results due to the inversion. On the + side I lost all detail and had better results on the neg side
It's possible somewhere in the chain, phase is reversed, which would explain why + sounds better in some cases? It's the kind of thing that's really hard to track down. I once had a pair of Proac tablets that sounded totally weird. I finally opened them and found one mid was out of phase with the other.
On a single ended amp the negative should sound better. Bob's amp is balanced.
Quote from: BobM on November 28, 2010, 05:46:35 AM
Yes, they perked up the details and spaciousness quite a bit. The top end is now too bright and a tad hard, but it seemed to smooth out a bit after 3-4 hours of play. There's still more to go. If it doesn't calm down in another day I'm going to try the following.
Leave one pair on the woofer connections to the speaker and move the tweeter pair to the back of the amp.
Bob,
My thought exactly. Previosly, I tried two different filters on my speakers and both sounded very different on the amp side. The sounds seems to be cycling a bit (over time) between good and bad. In previous break in cycles with other devices, this was typical. And often a more permanent change followed the worst sound for that particular filter. Interesting stuff these tweaks.
Phil
Quote from: Phil on November 28, 2010, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: BobM on November 28, 2010, 05:46:35 AM
Yes, they perked up the details and spaciousness quite a bit. The top end is now too bright and a tad hard, but it seemed to smooth out a bit after 3-4 hours of play. There's still more to go. If it doesn't calm down in another day I'm going to try the following.
Leave one pair on the woofer connections to the speaker and move the tweeter pair to the back of the amp.
Bob,
My thought exactly. Previosly, I tried two different filters on my speakers and both sounded very different on the amp side. The sounds seems to be cycling a bit (over time) between good and bad. In previous break in cycles with other devices, this was typical. And often a more permanent change followed the worst sound for that particular filter. Interesting stuff these tweaks.
Phil
Ok I think I may be the first to bow out. Harshness returned and I just removed them from my system. There seems to be a roller coaster effect with these ](*,)
Evan,
Do you know how long you had them in your system? And did you try them on the amp side?
There is a cycling break in. But does it end? Man, I'm getting impatient with this stuff in my dotage :?
Phil
Quote from: Phil on November 28, 2010, 02:02:42 PM
Evan,
Do you know how long you had them in your system? And did you try them on the amp side?
There is a cycling break in. But does it end? Man, I'm getting impatient with this stuff in my dotage :?
Phil
Got them on the 5th.I haven't tried them on my amp yet, I may. Had other speaker issues going on and these seemed to be the culprit.
Just got them today.
No issues here (yet). They sound very very nice. More presence and depth, top to bottom.
I have them on the - speaker terminals using a banana jack.
Only in the system for a couple hours, so we'll see.
D
Quote from: bacobits on November 29, 2010, 02:43:17 PM
Just got them today.
No issues here (yet). They sound very very nice. More presence and depth, top to bottom.
I have them on the - speaker terminals using a banana jack.
Only in the system for a couple hours, so we'll see.
D
keep us posted . I had mine in for 3 weeks and then they went down hill.
I will. That is real interesting. Why would they go down hill?
Oh well Why do they work at all in the first place?
Crazy sheeet.
D
Maybe your electron tank has a leak. :lmc:
Damn, hang on I gotta go check that. :yay2:
Hmmmm
D
Quote from: richidoo on November 29, 2010, 05:19:40 PM
Maybe your electron tank has a leak. :lmc:
I hate when tha happens. :evil:
Which is exactly why I used the dreaded word "consensus". What I get from reading all the postings on AC about this can be resumed as following: Some people are having a lasting and positive and repeatable experience. Some are having very contradictory results. Some have thrown in the towel. BudP speaks in an alien language when explaining what's going on. Rick is staying out of the fray or too busy to bother.
I could imagine that those who have the best results have the simplist systems (having nothing to do with quality) OR it is in the nature of this tweak to be inherently changeable. Maybe because it is like some kind of electronic "waste-gate" and is continuously reacting to either the system or changes in the room environment; say like static electricty build-up or humidity. I was hoping for those who have a positive and enduring experience to discribe their system and those who don't to do likewise. Probably day-dreaming on my part, or maybe the thing needs further developement to be consistent. For the time being I will just loiter around my male box and wait for my Silkworms to appear. THAT will be a constant and easily described experience :thumb: :thumb:
Quote from: shep on November 30, 2010, 01:19:41 AM
Which is exactly why I used the dreaded word "consensus". What I get from reading all the postings on AC about this can be resumed as following: Some people are having a lasting and positive and repeatable experience. Some are having very contradictory results. Some have thrown in the towel. BudP speaks in an alien language when explaining what's going on. Rick is staying out of the fray or too busy to bother.
I could imagine that those who have the best results have the simplist systems (having nothing to do with quality) OR it is in the nature of this tweak to be inherently changeable. Maybe because it is like some kind of electronic "waste-gate" and is continuously reacting to either the system or changes in the room environment; say like static electricty build-up or humidity. I was hoping for those who have a positive and enduring experience to discribe their system and those who don't to do likewise. Probably day-dreaming on my part, or maybe the thing needs further developement to be consistent. For the time being I will just loiter around my male box and wait for my Silkworms to appear. THAT will be a constant and easily described experience :thumb: :thumb:
We have the old Shep back :dj:
I have about 10 hours break in on mine right now. I gave a listen again last night for about an hour. The space and air and dimension and texture are all there. Far better than without these installed. I can hear a little hardness on the top end though and this would make some recordings unlistenable. Kind of like that digital glare you get with some CD players that crawles up your spine, well, mine at least. More break-in is probably needed but it will take time for me to get there.
I do bi-wire, and have 2 pairs of these things, so if it stays hard sounding I will probably try and remove the ones ont he tweeter and see what happens. Or maybe move that one to the amp. Haven't done that yet though.
"We have the old Shep back" Carefull with the old stuff! just cause I can say it doesn't mean anyone else can :duh Actually he never left but a bad head cold puts him in a disagreable state.
I have played with adding reservoirs of electrons to various places in the system and I was working my way down stream toward the amp and speakers when the thread on AC broke.
By way of a kind of explanation,when you stash electrons in a series of insulated strands of copper instead of just a big lump of copper you now have two variables,the electrons in the copper and EM field in the insulation. Until the insulation around the copper breaks in you will hear strange things. Its presence allows for tuning how the spare electrons get into the system and how the GC sounds. Users need to put the GCs into their system and just let the dielectric break in without immediately passing judgment based on a short term exposure.
Also because every system is electrically different, you will have wildly varying user reports. Additionally, it's my hypothesis that if you increase the resolution of some systems you may reveal the short-comings of upstream components.
Audiophiles are used to how their system sounds and if you change it they may feel that their system now sounds wrong because it is different. Some people are looking for an improvement whereby their system sounds the same only better. Does anybody see the contradiction here.
The GCs will not work in every system which is why there is a 30 day return option.
I am intrigued by the possibility of playing with electron storage in my components themselves,I think there may be untapped potential for increased resolution.
Scotty
Can a chunk of solid copper be used as reservoir? Or is the conductor's surface area a factor?
Certainly, but you don't have much of any way to control the effect except through the total mass of copper involved. It is just not as effective as storing the electrons in small wires.
Scotty
The only difference I can imagine (from the electron's pov) between a 10g sphere of copper and 10g of 30ga magnet wire in a loop is the surface area and EM interaction with insulation. What I'm wondering is whether the dielectric / conductor contact area is what makes this invention work? Then the wire length and type of insulation would be critical, as Bud suggests. Thanks for your insights Scotty!
Quote from: shep on November 30, 2010, 08:18:41 AM
.........a bad head cold puts him in a disagreable state.
But we still love you anyway! :thumb:
y'all to smart for me...I kina prefer my waste-gate notion, like on my ole Chevy truck.
Seems John is submerged in work and my Silkworms are somewhere on his desk. GRRR
Meanwhile back on the ranch, when it's not snowing it's raining.
One of the most uncivil discussions has been going on for a while on diyAudio.com about BYbee stuff.
Someone was ranting on AC about the Dutch site that sells Caps. I held my tongue because this was where my speakers came from (actually three pairs...one for me then a friend ordered a white pair that never arrived and a black pair were quickly sent to replace those. The white ones never ever appeared) Other than his never answering my mail, I have no compalints. I don't know if anyone noticed but Tony Gee is taking over that shop. Now that is interesting because not only is he famous as Humblehifi, and the huge caps test, but he is a very talented speaker designer. As you can tell I'm babbling. Germs.
Since a lot of my work for the last 30 years has been related to hydraulics, that's where I tend to go for my analogies. So for me I'm thinking of these as more of an accumulator in the system.
In my mind I'm thinking the energy after it has been utilized in the drivers is trying to get back to the reservoir, but has some resistance in the negative return lines. The accumulator gives a place for a storage dump as the negative wire returns the spent energy within its capabilities. Therefore there is no backup of energy within the drivers and they are free to operate as intended.
The amount of wire (wire surface area) and dielectric will determine the storage capability and flow rates of the accumulator. So to me the accumulator may have to be sized for each speaker as well as the ampere capability of the amplifier. Those that can produce high current may require higher gauge or longer wire.
If you use 24ga solid wire, a longer length of copper would be needed, but the dielectric will have its influence. A 12ga solid wire may be half-length, while 12ga stranded may be 1/3. And then the dielectric will also be a variable. Almost naked things may be best, but just as in life, that depends on the subject.
I reserve the right that these thoughts may be due to a delusional state (I just woke up).
Bud did say in his DIY Audio thread that he can "tune" his loop based on user feedback to the basic design. That has to include one of several variables:
- length of wire
- guage of wire and or # of strands
- amount of dielectric used
If so, then someone should be able to tell us what might work best if we find the basic design to be too revealing of the high end, and or hard sounding. I asked Bud that question over at AC and got something back which went way over my head. A more direct answer, like "add a 1/4" piece of dielectric to the bottom part of the product" would certainly have served me better.
So, any ideas on what one might do if the product doesn;t settle down with break in, as some have reported in their systems?
You suggested it in your own post, Bob. How bout loosen the covering and slide it up and down like a trombone to tune it. I think the insulation on the wire is more likely to have an effect than the outer sleeve, but worth a try.
Quote from: richidoo on December 01, 2010, 07:08:10 AM
You suggested it in your own post, Bob. How bout loosen the covering and slide it up and down like a trombone to tune it. I think the insulation on the wire is more likely to have an effect than the outer sleeve, but worth a try.
If I slide it up and down more than twice does that constitute playing with it? [-X :yay2:
Actually mine are still burning in. I'm going to give them a bit before I decide whether to take them apart or not. Just doing a little "what if" in the meantime, based on the reports of others. The sound I'm getting is purely phenominal so far, if a little bright/hard, but surprisingly not forward in any respect. Usually that goes hand in hand, but not with these. The depth I perceive is penetrating and precise actually, but with lots of nice bloom in the soundstage. More palpable.
When I remove them I feel like my system goes flat, which it doesn't because it wasn't flat sounding before, but in comparison ...
Considering we are talking about an electron tank here, it would be interesting to hang a cap off the terminal, which is truly an electron storage tank. All varieties of capacity, conductor metal, dielectric are available to experiment, maybe in combination (series or parallel) with the wire loops. I would think a very small value cap would equal the capacity of the loops. Of course it can't be connected electrically across the speaker terminals.
I wonder if the loops have some EM aspect. Creating a field around the wires which attracts some other energy which is then available electrically to enhance damping, or whatever. I have experienced weirder things than that with my friends who own radionic equipment. A block of copper, or even a sheet would have minimal EM effect, even if it has the same surface area or conductor mass/volume. Interesting area of experimentation, that's for sure.
Richadoo, tried a .022 cap, an unused ferrite core inductor, stranded, solidcore, Litz and ribbon wires. All had a different affect. never altered the dielectric. Try that next. So I guess the tuning is the key. For $25 I'm giving it a go. Its fun I've heard a difference now the real deal will step in.
BTW, its 1PM Do you know you know where your electrons are ?
charles
Cool!!! Great minds think alike! :rofl: That's interesting that you could hear difference on each.
My electrons should be getting home from school any minute.
Bob,
You might try moving the GE from the spearker's tweater/mid post and moving to the amp side. I tried this last night and it does sound better -- less harsh. Today is sounds better still. More breakin will determine whether ultimately the boost in HF will disappear completely.
Since my overall goal is a natural sound (to my ears, of course), and having found other filters attached to either the speaker or amp can sound more transparent/open and/or detailed at the expense of color/texture (for lack of a better term), I remain skeptical. But I always start out skeptical with every tweak.
Phil
Quote from: richidoo on December 01, 2010, 11:01:25 AM
Cool!!! Great minds think alike! :rofl: That's interesting that you could hear difference on each.
My electrons should be getting home from school any minute.
Yes electrons should not stray too far from home. All of this electron stuff has got me thinking about a true ground plane for the entire system. I still own the Tice conditioner/enhancer. george dabbled with electron management and was laughed out of the industry. I think its time to revisit the Tice now that my system has evolved over the years. It was great with the sub or bass amp. when i used the Tice my system was a tad bright and it made it brighter. Not good for me. It now resides in the LR for the plasma. which iImust say dramatically improved the TV picture. Tice clock anyone ?
charles
For us youngins...
http://www.stereophile.com/miscellaneous/784/index3.html
Quote from: rollo on December 02, 2010, 09:11:18 AM
Quote from: richidoo on December 01, 2010, 11:01:25 AM
Cool!!! Great minds think alike! :rofl: That's interesting that you could hear difference on each.
My electrons should be getting home from school any minute.
Yes electrons should not stray too far from home. All of this electron stuff has got me thinking about a true ground plane for the entire system. I still own the Tice conditioner/enhancer. george dabbled with electron management and was laughed out of the industry. I think its time to revisit the Tice now that my system has evolved over the years. It was great with the sub or bass amp. when i used the Tice my system was a tad bright and it made it brighter. Not good for me. It now resides in the LR for the plasma. which iImust say dramatically improved the TV picture. Tice clock anyone ?
charles
George was a Syndrome member back in the day and we got some up close and personal introductions to his early products. While he did some great things with the power line conditioners (I remnember him talking about winding his transforners with square rather than round wire because it allowed the wires to sit tighter together resulting in a higher flux density), I was never a big fan of "the clock" or any of his TPT treated wires. I gave them a listen and just didn't hear what all the fuss was about.
So I played with them a little bit this weekend. To begin, they are on the + speaker terminals in a bi-wired installation, because my preamp inverts. This sounds very good with no forwardness or top end emphasis since I installed banana plugs and hooked them at the very tip of the copper wire and tied the bottom end to the speaker wire with the cotton twine.
I did move them to the - speaker terminal, but heard that forwardness immediately.
I took them all off and heard the soundstage compress.
I put them back on the + terminals and heard the forwardness. This disappated over the course of an hour back to the pleasant sound I started with.
So this leads me to believe that any quick A-B test is pointless and the GE's need some time to "acclimate" after being moved. I will have to repeat this test on the - terminals and maybe on the amp when I can give them time to do so.
Very cool Bob. Good thinking on the positive terminal / phase inversion. :thumb:
With it requiring a new break in period every time you pull it off, and from what we [think we] know about cap and wire break-in that electrons need to renegotiate with adjacent dielectric, it seems like the ground enhancer is indeed acting like a electron hive of some sort.
Has anyone tried the xlr plugs with these yet?