I am thinking of getting a pair of SET mono blocks, and have a few questions...
1. Will a pair of 50 watt 845 SET's draw more/less/no way to tell/ electric from the wall than my current 300 wpc stereo amp
(Bryston 4 BSST2). Logic seems to say no, but other factors may be at play.
2. Does having a SS preamp negate the SET sound in any way?
3. I do not plan to replace my speakers- Acoustic Zen Crescendos. They are 90db efficient and according to their designer, very tube friendly. Will they cut the mustard?
I'm looking to have a taste of the SET sound; I know they have limitations- what are your experiences?
Thanks for any input.
1. More on average. Exception: the SS amp is running full blast every listening session.
2. No.
3. Yeap. Unless you have a ballroom size listening room.
KR Audio SET?
If you want tube sound, why not replace your preamp instead?
I had 91dB speakers, they played loud and clear with 20W 300B SEPP. They were good in 12W parallel mode too.
I love 845. Mastersound Mono845s knocked me out when I heard them at RMAF 2008. 50W should be more than enough for Acoustic Zen speakers, they are an easy load.
You probably saw this pic of Robert playing Crescendo with 20W SET at a show.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/acoustic-zens-transmission-lines (http://www.stereophile.com/content/acoustic-zens-transmission-lines)
Use good output transformers to get the best out of the tube.
Quote from: James Edward on November 29, 2012, 02:19:44 PM
I am thinking of getting a pair of SET mono blocks, and have a few questions...
1. Will a pair of 50 watt 845 SET's draw more/less/no way to tell/ electric from the wall than my current 300 wpc stereo amp
(Bryston 4 BSST2). Logic seems to say no, but other factors may be at play.
2. Does having a SS preamp negate the SET sound in any way?
3. I do not plan to replace my speakers- Acoustic Zen Crescendos. They are 90db efficient and according to their designer, very tube friendly. Will they cut the mustard?
I'm looking to have a taste of the SET sound; I know they have limitations- what are your experiences?
Thanks for any input.
1. Those must be
parallel single ended amps to generate 50 watts per channel. They need a very high power supply voltage to "sing"... They will run at Class A - full power unlike your Bryston, which is probably Class AB. Your Bryston draws 175 watts at idle & 1280 watts at full load @ 8 ohms. With your 90 dB efficient speakers, the 845 amps will probably draw more power... make sure you use a very good power cord :shock:
2. SS preamp negate the sound?... probably not, depending on the preamp... Synergy is key!
3. The Acoustic Zen Cresendos will play very loud unless you're in a ballroom, as stated earlier. I just picked up a pair of Nola Boxers that are 90 dB efficient & they play real loud with 300B SET monoblocks... the room is not overly big but they can play loud with 8 tube watts! Class A 50 watts will provide plenty of power, IMHO...
My $0.02,
Pete
PS - I suggest getting the SET amps as long as they're designed & made well... will be a huge difference in SQ over the Bryston...
I have done tubes many times- Primaluna Integrated, Primaluna Preamp, Moscode 402HR, Juicy Music Blueberry Preamp, LSA Integrated.
In actuality, the Bryston amp and preamp (BP26) sound great, and I know I will not undo anyone's preconceived notions about them.
Right now I have one substantial Shunyata PC for the amp. Perhaps it is time to try a pair of TWL cords for the mono blocks.
I am simply doing this to experience the sound that SET's are legendary for.
Right now a top contender is the Audio Space Reference 3 (805).
Thanks for the replies, and I will take all into consideration.
Quote from: James Edward on November 29, 2012, 03:51:05 PM
I have done tubes many times- Primaluna Integrated, Primaluna Preamp, Moscode 402HR, Juicy Music Blueberry Preamp, LSA Integrated.
In actuality, the Bryston amp and preamp (BP26) sound great, and I know I will not undo anyone's preconceived notions about them.
Right now I have one substantial Shunyata PC for the amp. Perhaps it is time to try a pair of TWL cords for the mono blocks.
I am simply doing this to experience the sound that SET's are legendary for.
Right now a top contender is the Audio Space Reference 3 (805).
Thanks for the replies, and I will take all into consideration.
Oh Yeah !!!!
You should try our Melody M845 monos then.
If you're near NY/NJ, come by Deepak's (Shoadowlight) gtg on 12/15.
On another note, we recently heard from a reviewer who is reviewing our AN300B and he said it's much better than his Pass Lab, I didn't ask which model, and he ended up selling his Pass. :)
will the 845's be making a showing at Deepaks?
Quote from: topround on November 29, 2012, 06:08:47 PM
will the 845's be making a showing at Deepaks?
Mike,
When I talked to Hugh earlier in the week the mono blocks were suppose to make the show but the AN845 (integrated 845) was out of stock and the boat is not going to arrive with new stock in time.
The new AN845 SET Integrated is out of stock, but Hugh could still bring the M845 monos. (which when paired with the new P2688 preamp are fantastic)
As an example of what Pete was saying above, the M845's are SET monos and put out 21w, while the PM845's are parallel single ended and put out 70w, with the rest of the circuit being nearly identical. 845's are capable of a little more than 21w theoretically, but not 50w each. They top out at around 32w as I understand it, although very few designs push them that hard. Don't automatically write off SEP designs. It may not be "pure" single ended, but if well executed the technical benefits are intact.
Acoustic Zen pairs the Crescendos with tube amps exclusively at shows and they always sound good. (one of my favorites actually) At 90db a 20-30w amp will drive them pretty loud.
Quote from: richidoo on November 29, 2012, 03:16:08 PM
I love 845. Mastersound Mono845s knocked me out when I heard them at RMAF 2008.
That was an excellent system.....even I STILL remember that room.....loved it !!! (Bring lots of money... :?)
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/images/P1013115.jpg)
Kaiser Kawero loudspeakers with Mastersound amplifiers and the Less Loss DAC....good stuff. :beer:
You may want to look at some Audio Note Kits, they sound great and don't cost a ton, I also have a friend who builds the kits on the side, he has built hundreds of them.
Do you feel you really need 50 watts of 845 power?
845's require very high voltages on the rails, building a good one requires a killer power supply, and it gets expensive(and heavy) fast.
Chinese might be the only way to go to get a good price, US or Euro will be big bucks, and the Chinese have come a long way. Also 845 tubes, are a fortune!
Maybe throw a good PP tube at your speakers, I use 40 watts in triode for my 89 db 4 ohm speakers and it is more than plenty, your speakers should be efficient enought to do with even less, plenty of options out there.
PP ain't SET for sure but it will be different than SS :shock:
Yeah, I would say I need (want?) the 50 watts. I tend to listen at higher volumes and my primary way of entertaining is with music as the focus. I am lucky to have a number of friends that also enjoy this type of gathering. And even luckier that they are not audiophiles!
I am also fortunate to be able to try these mono blocks as an experiment... They don't have to be my only amplification.
I'm getting the feeling that my recently upgraded electrical service is about to get a few new circuits...
I would say you are on the right path. Having 50'ish watts of SET/PSE power will sound very nice with your speakers. The Acoustic Zen speakers are very tube friendly due to their very flat impedance across the entire frequency range. This can be even more important than effeciency wham dealing with tube amps. I have used 8 watt 300B amps on those speakers with a glorious sound.
However, building your own amp around the 845/805 tube gets expensive and dangerous very quickly. Be prepared to be working with >1k volts and lethal current.
We are getting ready to release our PSE 300B mono amps at 18 watts which I feel can also be plenty for the right speaker. If we choose to do another design after this one, I would like to go with the 805 tube as you get around double the power of an 845. You can usually get about 40 watts from a single 805 tube and and still have the SE bliss.
The GM 70 tube for SET is my kind of tube. Delicate and powerfull in sound. Inexpensive to buy and maintain.
For me personally Just gave up on SET. Have been using a 211 based Consonance Cyber mono blocks for quite some time. Modded to the hilt it sounded glorious. However finding 211 NOS tubes are getting very expensive and rare. RCA and United NOS tubes are just cost prohibitive, if you can find them. The Chinese stuff IMO is not worth the money.
Then came along class "D" hybrid. Gave up on SET after 10 years. Why ? The sound of the class "D" equaled and bettered the SET. Presence and clarity without excessive coloration is what did it for me. The romantic midrange is addictive with SET for sure no argument there. Bass another story. Plump not accurate. Now if likes that great again no argument.
Just something to consider. As you know and I know it is your experience that counts. Personal taste cannot be argued with. Just make sure it is what you want before taking the plunge.
The AMP BTW are Arion.
charles
Quote from: rollo on December 02, 2012, 08:13:56 AM
For me personally Just gave up on SET. Have been using a 211 based Consonance Cyber mono blocks for quite some time.
charles
My $0.02... Sir Charles - you just needed to get better SET monoblocks, ones with really good OPT's (Tango, Tamura, Audio Note) and beefier power supplies... and keep "Mr. Cyclops" out of the chassis with his sausage fingers... :rofl:
Pete
I agree, the Chinese might be great for the money bit I can't imagine Class D replacing SET's in a system that was designed for SET's.
I also agree NOS tubes have become ridiculous in price and I know look for gear with as little tubes as possible, I will not be taken advantage of anymore.
High efficiency speakers were designed for amps that have little power, simple designs that deliver a purer sound, how an arc welder of a SS design or chip amp replaces that reasoning I don't understand.
If you have 84 db efficient speakers than sure use chip amps that produce lots of power and I am sure you can great great sound, but arc welders on horns just doesn't make sense to me.
James is using Bryston amps, he wants to try low power tubes.
God bless him, only bad thing is good SET is expensive and Charles the dehavilland GM70 may be a good match for him!
Mike
Quote from: topround on December 02, 2012, 11:22:07 AMHigh efficiency speakers were designed for amps that have little power, simple designs that deliver a purer sound, how an arc welder of a SS design or chip amp replaces that reasoning I don't understand.
If you have 84 db efficient speakers than sure use chip amps that produce lots of power and I am sure you can great great sound, but arc welders on horns just doesn't make sense to me.
Speakers designed for use with low powered tube amps generally have different bass alignments, making them sound thin with an "arc welder" type amp, but full with a SET or similar design. Vice versa for low efficiency, full range speakers, which is why they can sound boomy and flabby with a SET amp.
As far as horns and arc welders, I don't see an issue there, talk about dynamics. :shock:
The flat impedance curve of the Crescendo really benefits SETs. They have low damping so they don't tolerate wild impedance curves. Robert will also know that a truly tube friendly speaker's phase is largely positive angle, making a resistive load for the amp. Negative angle is a capacitive load which tubes don't like.
http://komkris2000.webs.com/The%20story%20of%20Tube%20Friendly%20Speakers.pdf (http://komkris2000.webs.com/The%20story%20of%20Tube%20Friendly%20Speakers.pdf)
Many speakers with roller coaster impedance curves are really intended (deliberately or not) for SS amps with low output impedance and huge electrical damping. Such a speaker is not well behaved, it is not self damping. It needs a firm hand on the tiller from class D is for Daddy, who's your daddy you little punk?
It is much easier to make a speaker sound good when impedance doesn't matter, so that has become the norm, but you are limited by the talent of the SS amp designer. Not all ss amps are a perfect voltage source to ignore the impedance. Wimpy power supplies can't deliver current and the damping falls down. With any transistor amp, linear or class D you miss out on the potentially transcendent sound quality of a DHT or SET. When the speakers are high enough sensitivity you will hear the difference. Charles Altmann used to say that his little 5W battery amp was inappropriate "for a 85dB speaker, but who would ever want to listen to music on that anyway?" It is true, the less sensitive speakers leave a lot of love on the table. That's why I think people go apeshit over horns despite the tonal aberrations of the badly designed horns, it's because you really can see the singers tonsils with 110dB and 1W triode.
But the low sensitivity hifi speakers have their own charm in filtering out all that distracting audiophile crap and leaving only "the music." ;)
Quote from: rollo on December 02, 2012, 08:13:56 AM
The GM 70 tube for SET is my kind of tube. Delicate and powerfull in sound. Inexpensive to buy and maintain.
For me personally Just gave up on SET. Have been using a 211 based Consonance Cyber mono blocks for quite some time. Modded to the hilt it sounded glorious. However finding 211 NOS tubes are getting very expensive and rare. RCA and United NOS tubes are just cost prohibitive, if you can find them. The Chinese stuff IMO is not worth the money.
Then came along class "D" hybrid. Gave up on SET after 10 years. Why ? The sound of the class "D" equaled and bettered the SET. Presence and clarity without excessive coloration is what did it for me. The romantic midrange is addictive with SET for sure no argument there. Bass another story. Plump not accurate. Now if likes that great again no argument.
Just something to consider. As you know and I know it is your experience that counts. Personal taste cannot be argued with. Just make sure it is what you want before taking the plunge.
The AMP BTW are Arion.
charles
You had a bad SET amp or poor speaker/amp synergy.
Don't count the Chinese tubes out. :)
Boys, boys do not misunderstand me. I love SET sound. Done right.
Dave, you are correct that the speaker [ Pipedreams] had a better synergy with the Arions. The SET was really good but in direct comparison did not hold a candle to the Arions.
THE GTA Audio Works sounded fantastic with the Arions compared to The Bryston amp on hand. As well with Analysis, Lenehan, Maggies and Apogee.
I would love to compare the Arions to Pete's SET amp on da horns. A learning experience for all. Good or bad.
The Cyber amps as well to Pete's amps. Only a direct comparison will tell all, not assumptions.
We get all the air, decay and midrange glory with the Arions without lack of bass or coloration.
Is one format better than the other ? I say no just different. Wether one likes he differences either way s a winner.
For years we were enamored by the SET sound and still are. However new designs about these days are seriously challenging old school thoughts.
So all I'm saying is give these new designs a chance. Ya never now if that "arc welder" will do until you try. Mike if you have the Rave with Gary's speakers the Arions just may change your mind.
So Pete are ya game ?? Hugh I'm talking 211s not all Chinese tube, my bad.
Over the years accuracy over coloration has taken me over. NO amp fits all. THE OP IMO should experience all that is available before a purchase is made, that's all.
charles
Quote from: rollo on December 04, 2012, 09:13:28 AM
I would love to compare the Arions to Pete's SET amp on da horns. A learning experience for all. Good or bad.
The Cyber amps as well to Pete's amps. Only a direct comparison will tell all, not assumptions.
So all I'm saying is give these new designs a chance. So Pete are ya game ??
charles
Ok, Charles, it's time to expose the flaws of your amps, especially at the milliwatt range. In my system, the first watt is by far the most important watt! I wouldn't bother bringing the Consonance 211's... Gotta feeling they'll be too noisy (hum). I spent over a decade trying find the right amp (tube push-pull, SETs, solid state, etc.) until I found the right combo for my ears with dead silence between notes & scary dynamics..
C'mon over!
Pete
Quote from: rollo on December 04, 2012, 09:13:28 AMBoys, boys do not misunderstand me. I love SET sound. Done right. Dave, you are correct that the speaker [ Pipedreams] had a better synergy with the Arions. The SET was really good but in direct comparison did not hold a candle to the Arions.
I agree entirely.
I loved and still love my Trafomatic Experience 2 SET. Virtually everyone that hears it likes it, even people who dont like valve amps. For some reason it has drive that makes it sound like a 20-25W amp and not its puny 8W. A number of valve guys bought their valve amps over to compare it and all left very impressed. It has a slight edge to me over my other favorite valve amp a Leben 300XS but its a bit different.
However in every way my Arions, upgraded to use Duelunds, simply blows it away. State of the art smoothness but also state of the art dynamics and transients - a highly additive combination. To me the Arion doesn't sound solid state or valve, it sounds real.
Set your prejudices aside and simply have a listen.
Thanks
Bill
Pete, what are your amps? Something custom, I think? Did you build them? thanks
Lets be honest here..
who sells these amps, and who has something to gain?, didn't we learn anything from the Ncore debacle?
Quote from: topround on December 04, 2012, 05:47:04 PM
Lets be honest here..
who sells these amps, and who has something to gain?, didn't we learn anything from the Ncore debacle?
Honest ?? Agenda ? Does bhobba sell these amps ? WE sell them as you know. OYE !! The Analysis room won best sound at Rocky Mountain two years in a row using these amps. This year one of the best. Stella reviews and so on. I am not alone in suggesting their sonic merits.
I'm relating my personal experience with my speakers. I thought you knew me by now Mike, I guess not.
In direct comparison the sound is closer to real than the colored SET amps.
Now back to the OP question. IMO any amp in question should be able to drive ones speakers to the listening level desired. Meaning if you listen at 90db how much power do you need to make your speakers do that without strain.
For me it was not that the Arions are a better amp than the SET. Just works better. With the Pipedreams at 6 ohms and 66 drivers one needs current. It is the sheer current that makes the Pipes sing. Although the 18W SET did a fine job the Arions did a better job driving the Pipes. Remember the Arions use a 6H30 input tube. Hybrid not like the N-Core.
Pete your on, should be fun. Now if one desires an SET amp and does not have $10,000 for a Loesch & Weisner amp then by all means listen to a Coincident 300B or Airtight. If you desire a custom hand made SET contact Gary Dodd.
charles
Quote from: richidoo on December 04, 2012, 04:59:33 PM
Pete, what are your amps? Something custom, I think? Did you build them? thanks
My buddy & good friend John Wiesner (of Loesch & Wiesner fame) built them for me, specifically for my system. Hand made, custom powder-coated aluminum chassis, all point to point wiring with vintage NOS UTC (made in NYC) power trannies and Tango XE-20S output iron... Furutech RCA / binding posts, my cords hardwired into them, etc... John told me these were the quietest pair of amps he ever built (and yes, they have AC on the filaments! as well as several transformer chokes)...
I do not have the knowledge nor the skill to design, layout & construct amps of this caliber. John has an extensive antique radio collection that he restored over the past 50 years & he told me he learned a ton about design, layout, grounding techniques, etc. from these old radios / amps. He's a degree'd EE from England and was trained in the USAF in electronics (including soldering techniques). In 1957, when John was 13, he built a pair of push-pull tube amps to power his home-made Tesla Coil; he wiped out all radio signal transmission from WGY in Schenectady, the largest broadcast station (50,000 watts) at the time, for 2 whole days... a modern-day equivalent of a super-hacker... :rofl:
He's in a whole other league & I'm glad he's my good friend... :thumb:
Pete
Great story, :rofl:
Quote from: rollo on December 05, 2012, 08:54:51 AMHonest ?? Agenda ? Does bhobba sell these amps ? WE sell them as you know. OYE !!
Of course I don't sell them and have zero financial interest if they sell or not.
I am simply relating my experience and asking people to have a listen.
Regarding the Ncores. I too got caught up in its hoopla and a guy here in Aus sent a pair up to me to check out. Good - especially for the money - but that's it - not the world beaters it was claimed. But what did I loose - simply a bit of time in listening to them and taking them around to a few friends places to see what they thought. All good fun.
The same with the Arions - simply give them a listen and see what you think. If you dont like em - fine - post it - if you do post that - I certainly won't worry about it. That however cant be said about the Ncore cadre - when I posted what I thought - boy did I get a blast. It was not on this site - I hasten to say - guys here are generally very tolerant I have to say.
Thanks
Bill
Bill,
I wasn't trying to knock you or Charles. The OP stated a question about SET amps, how it morphed into a sales pitch for the Arion class D amps annoyed me.
This is a site for people to ask questions and relay their experiences, if every question has the same answer then why bother with the site.
Perhaps Charles, a dealer, should have aproached the OP with a PM, and privately converse commerce.
Some people have mentioned they like the Arions and some didn't, be that as it may, the OP is interested in SET amps, SET amps have a certain magic that eludes other amps, it can't do everything but no amp can. So we choose the amps that compromises in areas we care less about.
I know Charles well and wish him no harm in business, not trying to be a "cockblocker" :thumb:but we should stick to the subject and not use every opportunity to try to sell something.
my .2 cents...and I know I am a pain in the ass, but I know more people will probaby agree with me than not on this subject.
Looking foward to hearing some more SET's at Deepak's :thumb:
Mike
Quote from: lonewolfny42 on November 29, 2012, 10:10:53 PM
Quote from: richidoo on November 29, 2012, 03:16:08 PM
I love 845. Mastersound Mono845s knocked me out when I heard them at RMAF 2008.
That was an excellent system.....even I STILL remember that room.....loved it !!! (Bring lots of money... :?)
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/images/P1013115.jpg)
Kaiser Kawero loudspeakers with Mastersound amplifiers and the Less Loss DAC....good stuff. :beer:
Those are some seriously good speakers on my if i hit the power ball list :drool:
They are cool looking speakers. How much?
Quote from: machinehead on December 07, 2012, 06:07:57 AM
They are cool looking speakers. How much?
http://www.lessloss.com/loudspeakers-c-78.html (http://www.lessloss.com/loudspeakers-c-78.html)
about the same as a nicely equipped suv
the cross over parts
(http://www.lessloss.com/images/loudspeakers/kawero/Kaiser-Kawero-krosoverio-detales_FON0124-737px-sujuostom.jpg)
Quote from: Ecramer on December 07, 2012, 06:28:13 AM
Quote from: machinehead on December 07, 2012, 06:07:57 AM
They are cool looking speakers. How much?
http://www.lessloss.com/loudspeakers-c-78.html (http://www.lessloss.com/loudspeakers-c-78.html)
about the same as a nicely equipped suv
the cross over parts
(http://www.lessloss.com/images/loudspeakers/kawero/Kaiser-Kawero-krosoverio-detales_FON0124-737px-sujuostom.jpg)
Sounds like "MoreLoss" of cash, that is... :rofl:
Quote from: Triode Pete on December 07, 2012, 07:01:05 AM
Quote from: Ecramer on December 07, 2012, 06:28:13 AM
Quote from: machinehead on December 07, 2012, 06:07:57 AM
They are cool looking speakers. How much?
http://www.lessloss.com/loudspeakers-c-78.html (http://www.lessloss.com/loudspeakers-c-78.html)
about the same as a nicely equipped suv
Sounds like "MoreLoss" of cash, that is... :rofl:
That is certainly the truth. :duh the things you see when you have no cash. I've heard plenty of speakers over the years as every one else has that hangs around here and other sites like this has. There has been 4 or 5 speakers in the 40k to 60k range that brought a big smile to my face when giving the opportunity to sit in the sweet spot. And lots more that i liked the speakers i have at my house better. That's about the price point i run out of ear power for speakers :shock:
I'm sure we all have a short or long list of things we lust after.
Look at the size of those parts! Makes me feel like a wee child again sitting at the "big" table in the "big" chair with the "big" people. These won't retrofit in anything that is previously owned, you have to design separately for something this big.
I was looking at some .1uF Dueland Alexandra caps to use as a bypass (Partsconnexion has a good sale going on). These are actually smaller than the CAST series, but they were still 1" x 2" in size. They are only .1uF for God's sake. Anyway, too big for the space I wanted to use them in. So, find something else.
Quote from: topround on December 07, 2012, 03:13:52 AM
Bill,
I wasn't trying to knock you or Charles. The OP stated a question about SET amps, how it morphed into a sales pitch for the Arion class D amps annoyed me.
This is a site for people to ask questions and relay their experiences, if every question has the same answer then why bother with the site.
Perhaps Charles, a dealer, should have approached the OP with a PM, and privately converse commerce.
Some people have mentioned they like the Arions and some didn't, be that as it may, the OP is interested in SET amps, SET amps have a certain magic that eludes other amps, it can't do everything but no amp can. So we choose the amps that compromises in areas we care less about.
I know Charles well and wish him no harm in business, not trying to be a "cockblocker" :thumb:but we should stick to the subject and not use every opportunity to try to sell something.
my .2 cents...and I know I am a pain in the ass, but I know more people will probaby agree with me than not on this subject.
Looking forward to hearing some more SET's at Deepak's :thumb:
Mike
Sorry you see it that way. It was not a sales pitch. Just relaying my personal experience with my personal system.
If it is perceived as a sales pitch I get excited about our hobby. My enthusiasm is mistaken for pitch. The Arions are well out of the OP range.
Hey I'm the first dealer here to advise going to another Manf. or dealer for a component that I do not carry.
My purpose here is to inform not sell. Sorry you see it that way.
I will stand by my comment that in direct comparison to my SET the Arions were just better on the Pipedreams.
charles
Quote....about the same as a nicely equipped suv ...
Back in 2008...the Kaiser Kawero's were a bit less....now running ....a lot more. :(
Retail price, per stereo pair, including shipment from Germany:
Painted semi-gloss: $56,000
Wood veneer (*) or carbon fibre front baffle: $58,000
Precision mirror finish clear lacquer (additional minimum of five weeks lead time): $68,000
Those Mastersound Mono Blocks are up there as well....over $17,000.00 a pair now... :?
http://www.mastersoundsas.it/master%201_1_ing/845_monoblock.htm (http://www.mastersoundsas.it/master%201_1_ing/845_monoblock.htm)
Quote from: topround on December 07, 2012, 03:13:52 AMLooking foward to hearing some more SET's at Deepak's :thumb:
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
That's what we need - more listening and posting what we hear. Great stuff.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: Ecramer on December 07, 2012, 07:47:23 AMThere has been 4 or 5 speakers in the 40k to 60k range that brought a big smile to my face when giving the opportunity to sit in the sweet spot. And lots more that i liked the speakers i have at my house better. That's about the price point i run out of ear power for speakers :shock:
It isn't just price that makes me run out of ear power - although its a factor.
It's when I hear the markup margins. By all reports the Majicos are fine speakers incorporating SOA resonance control - but when I heard they sell at nine times the cost of parts my eyes sort of glazed over and wonder what you get for that markup. I know in Singapore when new Majico's were released they held a Champagne and Cavear breakfast - and it was not cheap domestic stuff either - it was Bollinger. Someone has to pay for that - guess what - its the consumer. Not picking on Majico - others do it as well.
Thanks
Bill
Wow, doing work with Duelund myself, I know those parts cost more than most finished speakers. unfortunately, I have yet to hear another capacitor that provides the same presentation.
Back to the OP. in the end, it is up to his ears and wallet to make the final decision. We can pass along recommendations all day long but if he can't audition them for himself, it has to read between the lines and soak everything in.
There are lots of good amplifiers out there within all different designs. Class-D, Class-A, PP tube, SET and the list goes on. We all have our preferences but we cannot debate about what is better.
I have Class-D, solid state, tubes and our own PSE 300B. What I prefer is what makes me happy on any given day. I wouldn't give any of them up completely.
Every product has its place in the market.
As far as pricing and markup on products, that's something you will never avoid. However, that's a discussion that needs a whole new thread of its own and even then, nothing would be settled.
Quote from: Response Audio on December 07, 2012, 06:25:38 PM
Wow, doing work with Duelund myself, I know those parts cost more than most finished speakers. unfortunately, I have yet to hear another capacitor that provides the same presentation.
Back to the OP. in the end, it is up to his ears and wallet to make the final decision. We can pass along recommendations all day long but if he can't audition them for himself, it has to read between the lines and soak everything in.
There are lots of good amplifiers out there within all different designs. Class-D, Class-A, PP tube, SET and the list goes on. We all have our preferences but we cannot debate about what is better.
I have Class-D, solid state, tubes and our own PSE 300B. What I prefer is what makes me happy on any given day. I wouldn't give any of them up completely.
Every product has its place in the market.
As far as pricing and markup on products, that's something you will never avoid. However, that's a discussion that needs a whole new thread of its own and even then, nothing would be settled.
Well said Bill could not agree more about the Deulunds. Same for components. There is no best just what is best for the listener.
I was trying to say that just because an amp is an SET that one size does not fit all. I'm sure with the right speaker it will sound great. In my case with my speaker it did not in direct comparison with a hybrid class "D".
When I use my Omega single driver speakers the SET betters the class "D" in direct comparison.
So the lesson would be pick the amp for the speaker. BTW guys Parts Connections sale of Deulund is still on. Just ordered some Cast .1 tube coupling caps @ $186 ea. for our preamp. Hedging on the Cast 1.0 for the Arions. Still $460 for the pair ouch !!! However as you say they are the cat's meow.
Started with the Alexandra series and was pleased with he outcome. The Cast series may be a tad warmer than the Alexandra. Do you have an opinion on the character difference ?
charles
Quote from: Response Audio on December 07, 2012, 06:25:38 PM
Wow, doing work with Duelund myself, I know those parts cost more than most finished speakers. unfortunately, I have yet to hear another capacitor that provides the same presentation.
Welcome to the club. All my equipment (I have speakers, DAC's and amps using them) has them where possible - but the cost - ahhhhhh. Once heard though no going back.
My new speakers that I have on order use Duelund Cast and each capacitor costs more than the total cost of the drivers by a huge margin. They are the single most expensive part. They are lined with 1/4 inch copper plate which is also pricey but the Cast even costs more than that. Why does the best cost so much?
Thanks
Bill
QuoteStarted with the Alexandra series and was pleased with he outcome. The Cast series may be a tad warmer than the Alexandra. Do you have an opinion on the character difference ?
I don't want to hijack this thread (maybe we should start a new one?) but would love to hear other's opinions on the Alexandra versions as I have not yet heard them.
You want to talk about pricey! The caps in the picture below are 10uF with .50uF built in silver bypass custom built for us by Frederick. They cost [us] more than some people will spend on a complete component. These are coupling caps in our upper end preamp.
(http://www.purityaudiodesign.com/Ultra-GT-300-close-up.gif)
I started a thread somewhere here I'll look for it and post again.
charles
Found it in self help under "Caps"
Quote from: bhobba on December 08, 2012, 03:44:43 PM
Quote from: Response Audio on December 07, 2012, 06:25:38 PM
Why does the best cost so much?
Very simple - because it can. plain vanilla supply and demand economics. If people weren't willing to shell out that kind of coin for "the best" one of two things would happen. If the item was truly high cost to make, then nobody would be able to bring it to, or keep on, the market. And if it was low cost to make and was just being sold with a ridiculous mark up then the manufacturer would keep lowering the price until he hit a point that people were willing to pay.
But as long as there are people out there willing to part with big bucks for a perceived premium item there will also be someone out there willing to take their money.
Quote from: topround on December 07, 2012, 03:13:52 AM
...and I know I am a pain in the ass, but I know more people will probaby agree with me than not on this subject.
Agree with you about the amps or agree that you are a pain in the ass? :rofl:
(Only kidding Mike - you couldn't throw a hanging curveball like that right over the center of the plate and not expect at least one of us to take a swing at it. :lol:)