AudioNervosa

Hi guys!

I bought this Concept used on AC in Spring 2011. I have enjoyed the sound very much. I have kept my head in the sand about adjusting it and applying tweaks so far.  The TT comes "setup from the factory, no adjustments needed."

The seller either changed the cart himself or bought it with an upgraded cart. So instead of the Concept MM cart, it has the Maestro Wood MM cart now. I think the seller said he adjusted the tonearm, but who knows. I want to know that it's right. When he sold it he was frustrated with analog and selling everything. So maybe it's not optimized.

So I hereby pull my head out of the sand, and wish to bring my TT up to optimal performance. My experience is using a printed paper protractor to align Technics SL-Q2 with AT150MLX.  I think that came out well, but the table has limited potential. The Concept sounds much better even if it is not perfectly adjusted.

It seems from looking at the tonearm, that it might not be perfectly level with the record. Just bought a mat from jimbones, and the VTA is way off with that in place and sounds worse. I know i have to adjust it with the mat, but it does look a little off. So maybe VTA was not adjusted with the cart upgrade.

Question 1: What tool measures VTA or do I do it by eye as the manual suggests?

I will need to figure out what size allen wrench is needed to work on this TT. It is German so it must be metric. The manual says "Using the wrench... " so it is probably one tool for all the adjustement screws. The VTA is adjusted by loosening the set screw on the tonearm base and sliding the tower up and down, then tightening.

I will also try to find and download a protractor for this TT. If not then  I will ask you guys how to make one using a CAD program, if possible.

Thanks in advance for any praise , love, advice, jokes, teasing, insults or vitriol.
Rich

Rich,

While I am trying to get my Empire up to snuff I am been reading about lots of tools available on Vinylengin (http://www.vinylengine.com/tools.shtml) website.  Maybe there is something there that you might be able to leverage.

Thanks for the link Deepak. That's where I got the Technics protractor, but I forgot where I found that. They don't have a specific template already made for Concept, but there is lots of theoretical reading there to help me figure it out. And some universal alignment tools. I thinkthe Concept service manual is up there too. The owners manual doesn't state the tonearm geometry.

  VTA can be a bitch. Try using a index card with lines. Fold t one end and place on platter so lines run horizontally hen line up the cart with a line. Try dead level then raise up the rear 2 degree
  Usually azimuth is off that Fozgometer is quite something. Very affective. Speed is most often not checked or correct. A good digital tach will do the trick if the speed can be adjusted.
   Have fun professor.


charles

Thanks Charlie, that's a great idea about post card!

Anyone using the Geo-disc (http://turntablelab.com/products/mobile-fidelity-geo-disc-phono-cartridge-alignment-tool) alignment tool? It's only $50 and has some good comments online. AN Opinions? 

I think the Geo disk is what Bill brought me to set up my VPI SSM, it's a good tool for quickly getting setup 'out of the box'. But it didn't get me the final 10/10th of sonic goodness. I still need to get my hands on a Fozgo for that.

Quote from: richidoo on December 02, 2012, 01:04:23 PM
Thanks Charlie, that's a great idea about post card!

Anyone using the Geo-disc (http://turntablelab.com/products/mobile-fidelity-geo-disc-phono-cartridge-alignment-tool) alignment tool? It's only $50 and has some good comments online. AN Opinions? 

Thanks Gene. Everyone says it is a quick alignment, but I wonder if it is good enough? Probably as good as I can afford since we are now on the Dave Ramsey diet. I'm not gonna buy a Fozgo for this deck, but my friend Anand might get one for his uberTT so I can ask him to bring it by next g2g if he does. The Concept tonearm has a setscrew azimuth adjustment.

I had to add 3 full turns of counterweight to the VTF to get the 2.2g VTF that the Maestro Wood wants. Curious to know what VTF Pete uses on his Wood after experimenting? I measured the VTF with the stylus at the height that it play records, the Shure scale is only ~.04" taller than the mat + record thickness. I read that measuring VTF at playing height is really important. It did seem to affect my measurements a lot, even .2" too high made a big change.

Then I raised the tonearm by about 5mm to get level VTA with the Ringmat installed. Turns out that I had been playing records since I got it (no mat) with VTA about -2 degrees. It still sounded a lot better than my Technics midfi, so I was still happy with it. Ignorance is bliss.

I had to remove the cueing's arm lifter part to allow the arm to fall all the way down to the record with the higher VTA setting. I'll have to mod or replace the part if I want to cue, which I do...

It sounds MUCH, much better now. :thumb:   Bass is deeper and punchier, everything is much more solid, punchy, dynamic. Soooo much more detail than I had before. Cymbal reverb, plunky piano notes, breath and space. It is very gratifying to let this tiger out of his cage. twss  I still need to check the alignment and azimuth, maybe there's more still on the table. The Concept arm has a cart mounting plate that has angle setting pins that insert into a slot on the tonearm, so I think the angle is set. The in and out adjustment is about perfectly in the center of the slot with a Clearaudio cartridge, so could be those are OK. We'll see...

Still looking for opinions on alignment tools and general setup advice from everybody. Or tell me what mistakes I made today!
Thanks
Rich

The Geodisc does a very good job on alignment.  I have one and have used it many times.  But if you don't have one handy then you can obtain any number of alignment tools for free from Vinyl Engine (you need to register and log in to download them).

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml (http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml)

What I usually suggest is that you print one of these out full size and then use some light adhesive and affix it to an old throw away record so it will lie perfectly flat.

--Jerome

Thanks Jerome. I was thinking I would try that route before getting a tool. It worked OK for me on my old TT, not easy but cheap. Actually it was a little frustrating, but doable. Would have been easier if stuck to an old LP. I'll save for a geodisc, thanks...

I was dubious about the big weight change with the small height change, so I looked into it a little. The Concept arm uses a magnetic pivot. A magnet holds the whole arm up, pulling toward a shunt or another magnet above. Magnets used this way always have a happy place where they try to move towards. In this case the magnet is centered in its horizontal plane happy place when VTA is level. When you pull it out of that happy place with negative or positive VTA the magnet want to return to the happy place and while trying to get there, creates a new vertical force. If the stylus is below the LP surface plane (is that positive VTA?) than the pivot magnet exerts a lifting force against gravity on the stylus. When the stylus is above the LP surface the magnet exerts a downward force adding to gravity. So the VTA must be set first, then the VTF set. I did the opposite, thinking I wanted the needle sitting with the right VTF before I leveled the arm.

The very elementary Clearaudio manual sets the VTF first, then VTA. Acoustic Sounds advises the reverse because of the sensitivity of VTF to VTA. I'll check to see if the VTF is still on after adjusting VTA, but I'm remembering where it's set now because it sounds good!

Edit: It was .05g too heavy after VTA adjustment, about 1/8 turn of the weight. Don't even know if the Shure scale is that accurate.

Quote from: etcarroll on December 02, 2012, 02:53:46 PM

I think the Geo disk is what Bill brought me to set up my VPI SSM, it's a good tool for quickly getting setup 'out of the box'. But it didn't get me the final 10/10th of sonic goodness. I still need to get my hands on a Fozgo for that.

Quote from: richidoo on December 02, 2012, 01:04:23 PM
Thanks Charlie, that's a great idea about post card!

Anyone using the Geo-disc (http://turntablelab.com/products/mobile-fidelity-geo-disc-phono-cartridge-alignment-tool) alignment tool? It's only $50 and has some good comments online. AN Opinions? 

Sorry I never touched your VPI settings. We used the Geodisc when you replaced the Denon 301 cartridge on your Denon TT

Rich,

I have been using a GeoDisc for over 20 years and been very happy with it. But the GeoDisc only helps align the cartridge geometry with respect to the tonearm. It does not provide any help in doing VTA adjustments which are aligning the tonearm with the platter. And it is true, things like the GeoDisc, or any other alignment protractor are only going to give you an approximation of a good alignment, not the optimum, one. All of these devices provide visual cues using the cartridge body to set the alignment. But in reality we are not trying to align the body, but rather the stylus itself. While using the body as a visual reference gets you close, manufacturing tolerances cause small variations in the placement of the stylus relative to the body itself. For most people using the cartridge body as a proxy would be close enough, but of you really want to get the alignment dead on the final adjustments need to be made either by ear, or using electrical measurements to zero it in.

Chad at Acoustic sounds sells a TT set-up LP that provides test tones and very explicit instructions on how to set the various alignment components using electronic test bench equipment.

It has gotten rave reviews from quite a few industry titan. I don't own one, but it is one of those things that I keep saying "next time I place and order.....".  :roll:

Maybe Santa can bring me one.   :D

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/35532/Analogue_Productions-The_Ultimate_Analogue_Test_LP-Turntable_Set_Up_Tools (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/35532/Analogue_Productions-The_Ultimate_Analogue_Test_LP-Turntable_Set_Up_Tools)

One other thing about the GeoDisc, it can be tricky to us on cartridges that do not have a box shape body. The geoDisc uses a grid and asks you to align the cart so that it squares with the grid. This is fairly simple if the cart body has flat sides and 90 degree corners, but can be tricky to do if the body has curves surfaces. On Carts with no body it is actually kind of easy, in that you can easily see the stylus and just line up the stylus itself with one of the grid lines.

I have used the stuff on Vinyl engine with good results too. On my MMF7.1 I adjust the VTA then the VTF. If you want to try a digital scale, I picked this one up on amazon, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003O5K3JQ/ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003O5K3JQ/), I have calibration weights and it was accurate down to the .05 weights, so not bad for $12.

If you are looking for test LP, I have used the HiFi News test LP with good results. It can really help with making sure tracking force and bias settings are correct.

Thanks for the detailed info Tom.  The cart is square on the sides and front so a grid will work OK. Is an oscilloscope necessary to use that Acoustic Sounds test disc?

Welcome to AudioNervosa JBNY! So far the Shure scale that came with the TT deal is working well, it seems to be very sensitive to changes, although I don't know about its absolute accuracy against reference. I will tune by ear anyway once it's close to the recommended force.

Somebody recommended the HiFiNews test disk the last time I pulled my head out of the sand, I think it was regarding antiskate adjustment. Thanks

I picked this up and it is working great for a speed check

http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Digital-Laser-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B004Q8L894/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1344606454&sr=8-4&keywords=digital+laser+tachometer (http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Digital-Laser-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B004Q8L894/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1344606454&sr=8-4&keywords=digital+laser+tachometer)

I also have a cheap postal digital scale accurate to .05 for measuring downforce. You don;t need an expensive "audiophile" scale to do this.

I've used the index card trick to get a starting point, but then VTA setting is done by ear from there. A tedious process but oh so critical for MC cartridges. MM's not so much.

I also set tracking force by ear and have written about that process here

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=2414.msg25882#msg25882 (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=2414.msg25882#msg25882)

I have both the Acoustic Sounds and Hifi News discs and no, you don't necessarily need a scope. I use the Acoustic sounds track 2 and 3 with the Fozgo for azimuth and it works great. The disc is perfectly flat and the hole is properly centered as well. Very nicely done. Anti-skate isn't an issue on my T3Pro arm so I've not used those recently.

Quote from: BobM on December 03, 2012, 09:59:57 AM
I picked this up and it working great for a speed check

http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Digital-Laser-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B004Q8L894/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1344606454&sr=8-4&keywords=digital+laser+tachometer (http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Digital-Laser-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B004Q8L894/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1344606454&sr=8-4&keywords=digital+laser+tachometer)

Another vote, I have the same one, works great!

-Joe

Thanks Bob, Tom...

Do you put a strobe tape sticker on the platter for that tach?

Rich -

A lot of the expensive digital scales are simply this unit with a new companies label. I bought one based on advice at AC and find it quite useful.

http://dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269 (http://dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269)

Nice price Gene, thanks.

Quote from: richidoo on December 03, 2012, 01:26:29 PM
Thanks Bob, Tom...

Do you put a strobe tape sticker on the platter for that tach?

Yes just stuck it on the rim with a tiny dab of Blu Tak or similar. Works great.

I see, it's only temporary...

Bill offered to loan me his Geodisk for an alignment, thanks very much Bill!  :thumb:

The speed and Azimuth adjustments are on the bottom of my TT, so it's an iterative adjustment process. But better than no adjustments at all.

I also read that the magnetic pivot design of Clearaudio Concept arm has varying downforce across the arc. I'll have to measure it at a couple places and find a setting that works across the record.

If nothing else, analog is always an adventure.  8)

With pumpkinman's GeoDisc I was able to verify that the alignment is good. I didn't have to change it at all. Thanks Bill!

The Geodisc is very easy to use.

The Maestro wood cartridge sides are sculpted, not a flat side, plus the sides are not parallel to each other, they are off by a couple degrees. If one only looked at one side they might be tempted to adjust the cart. Looking on both sides reveals that the sides are both off the grid, in opposite directions by the same amount. But the front of the cart is flat and lines up with the grid.

Now I'll play with the tracking force, see how it changes across the record.

Tracking force is my weak spot, I'll be interested to hear what you learn.  I know it should be simple but....
Is anti-skate different than tracking force?
Shouldn't it make a left-to-right channel difference? I haven't heard it.
If it's not there, the needle is much easier to slide across your record... bad! 
My Pro-Ject has a weight and a string with 3 notches as adjustment.  Most tables have a dial. 
The cart should have the amount of tracking force it likes in the specs.
-C

Tracking force is the weight of the needle on the record, adjusted with the counterweight on the back of the arm. My cart likes 2.2g. But supposedly this Concept arm applies different weight depending on the position on the record, due to the magnetic pivot. I will measure it in several places today.

Anti-skate mechanism cancels the lateral force on the needle. Some explanations of anti-skate say that the outward pull of the needle is caused by centripetal force, but that is not true. The needle is not spinning with the record surface, so there is no angular acceleration of the needle, and no centripetal force. It is caused by lateral friction between disc surface and needle.

The needle wants to skate outward because the angle of the groove at the needle is not parallel to the line from the needle to the pivot. As the arm moves across the record this angle between groove and arm changes slightly and the anti-skate force should also change. On a linear tonearm, the angle is eliminated and no antiskate is necessary.  The needle angle is off by usually <1 degree. A longer tonearm reduces this effect. A linear tonearm eliminates it.

Even when there is an angle difference, the needle still stays in the groove because the skating force is usually not enough to lift the needle out of the groove. But it is enough to deflect the cantilever. To adjust the antiskate you can use a test record and voltmeter to balance the amplitude of each channel, or a grooveless LP to adjust the needle to sit still with the record spinning.

My antiskate adjustment is under the plinth, and set by factory, so I'm in denial for now. The arm moves outward on the down cue, even before it hits the record. More magnetic pivot side effects?

The tracking force of the Concept arm is pretty uniform across the record surface, varying only .1g from outside to inside.

Note to self: don't believe everything you read on the internet! 

Thanks, Rich... and I remember now what tracking force is..  :duh  The name always confuses me.. I would call it 'stylus weight' or something even more confusing for everyone but me. ;)

Quote from: richidoo on December 16, 2012, 02:27:29 PM


Note to self: don't believe everything you read on the internet! 

"They can't put anything on the Internet that's not true."

"Where'd you read that?"

"On the Internet...."

Bryan

Update:  I learned that the anti-skate force of Concept TT is set at the factory to be correct with a 2g tracking force. They say it is touchy, don't mess with it.

Fremer's review and various ads suggests that Concept TT comes with Verify tonearm, but it comes with the black colored Concept tonearm.

Adjusting the VTA to accomodate the Maestro Wood cartridge makes the cue level not work. The cueing beam does not reach high enough to lift the arm with arm adjusted level with Maestro. The Concept carts designed for this TT are shorter in height.

BobM, JBNY, what is the RPM resolution of that tachometer?

Listening to a LOT of vinyl now with my new amp. Starting to think about a better table.  :shock: :rofl:

That tachometer resolves to .1 RPM. I just cut out a tiny 1/4" square of the reflective tape that comes with it, peeled off the backing and stuck it to the rim of my platter. Yes, it goes round and round and round. I guess I could take it off once the speed was set properly, but I didn't.

Quote from: richidoo on December 13, 2012, 07:44:50 AM

The Geodisc is very easy to use.

The Maestro wood cartridge sides are sculpted, not a flat side, plus the sides are not parallel to each other, they are off by a couple degrees. If one only looked at one side they might be tempted to adjust the cart. Looking on both sides reveals that the sides are both off the grid, in opposite directions by the same amount. But the front of the cart is flat and lines up with the grid.

I know it is commonly done, but using cart body to set offset angle is the wrong approach.   [-X  It can be a rough starting point, but that's all.

Not all cartridge bodies are square with parallel sides.  Even if they are, it is still not a good technique as the cantilever may not be set squarely and perfectly into the cartridge body.

Simply lower stylus onto the bullseye, view the cart head on (be sure to perfectly sight down the protractor line) and make sure the cantilever itself lines up exactly with the line.  Keep twisting the cart in the headshell till the line and cantilever merge...."become one" if you will.  If it is off, you will see the line behind the cantilever.  If on, you will not.  I believe this is explained by Step 6 on the Geo-disc instructions.

You will need to get really low, and lay a bright flashlight on the platter shining on the work.  I also sight thru a magnifying lens.  Done right, very easy to see and quickly/accurately set offset angle.

Thanks Bob. It can take the RPM reading with only 1/4" of tape?

Thanks tubluvr. I will check out the cantilever alignment as you suggest. I don't have the GeoDisk anymore, but I'll try to make a  printed protractor.  I think i did try to check the needle alignment on geodisk, but I don't remember it being particularly easy or fruitful. But a thin black line on a white paper would be easier, or as you suggest, shining light on the geodisk line would have helped. Thanks again

Yeah, you do not need much of the tape to get an accurate reading, it just needs to reflect the light back to the measuring unit for it to work. They include about a foot of the tape with the product, and it is easily reusable. I don't think I have used more than the small piece I cut for the first measurement, I have reused it about 6 times so far.

-Joe

Thanks joe

Is it correct to set the arm parallel with the plinth for VTA? I know it would be preferable to set the actual angle of the cantilever to the platter surface, but I don't have that ability.

I had to raise the arm about 1/4" to achieve a level arm when using the maestro cart. I remember BobM said tune it by ear, but I wanna know if parallel is the place to start?

In looking at clearaudio cartridge specs a little closer, it seems that their carts might all be the same height, and interchangeable. That would imply that the original, lower pivot VTA was correct even though it is not even close to level. It sounded better, but I also installed a RingMat. Maybe that mat is better than I think, improves sound even when VTA is made worse!  :lol:

Since there is always a tolerance in cantilever angle, and arms are not always constant diameter tube, setting it to a specific angle is not always the best way. So how do you guys set your VTAs? By ear?
Thanks!

I found this article on adjusting it, but I'm sure there are millions more. http://www.theanalogdept.com/adjusting_vta.htm (http://www.theanalogdept.com/adjusting_vta.htm)

and:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5656-My-Views-and-Procedures-for-Adjusting-VTA (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5656-My-Views-and-Procedures-for-Adjusting-VTA)

Here's a few more articles to brush up on VTA

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/resources/tonearmvta.htm (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/resources/tonearmvta.htm)

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_method_e.html (http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_method_e.html)

http://www.stereophile.com/content/tweaking-your-record-player-page-7 (http://www.stereophile.com/content/tweaking-your-record-player-page-7)

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/how-to-set-vta-from-first-principles.151366/ (http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/how-to-set-vta-from-first-principles.151366/)

Setting VTA is probably my least enjoyable thing to do on my turntable, the MMF7.1

The Concept cuing mechanism rises up with the pedestal, so it is not a factor in VTA at all, as long as the arm angle is within a certain 1/2" range it works fine. I was trying to make the arm level with a ring mat, which was just at the edge but still within cuing range, by 1/32".

Hopefully correct VTA will fall within that 1/2" range, if Maestro is same height as the "Concept" cart that this arm is designed for. So I adjusted VTA to put the arm back in that range. Still sounds good, about the same. I know I am not on correct VTA, so I hope there is more SQ on the table if I can dial in VTA.   :drool:

There is a knob on the bottom of the arm pedestal that is antiskate adjustment. I thought it was VTA, but no. VTA is only the set screw. 


Hold the presses: Just found out the Clearaudio Verify tonearm is the same as the Concept tonearm, except the Verify is carbon fiber arm, while Concept are is black plastic arm of sorts.  So, in reading the Verify setup instructions (http://www.clearaudiousa.com/download/tonarme/verify_de_en.pdf) (there are no instructions for Concept arm because it is not sold separately, only with Concept TT) it said to make sure the arm is set level with the TT chassis. This is important because of the magnetic suspension of the arm. It needs to be centered in the magnet for everything to work right, antiskate, etc. Back to the drawing board Oy vay! I may not be able to use this RingMat after all, or make a custom lifting arm for the cue. I've already gotten used to thumbing it so no biggie for me, but my kids and wife would prefer to use the cue stick.

I put the arm back to level with the plinth. I'll have to figure out about VA adjustment from there. I can't raise the pivot any higher or the cue will not let the needle touch the record. There is already a .075" metal spacer/cue stick between the arm and cart to get the needle lower with arm level.

Thanks for the links Bob. Always fun to have new audio reading material!

I also saw Jim Rebman is selling his Concept with Pete Riggle VTAF installed.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116251.msg1217176#msg1217176 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116251.msg1217176#msg1217176)

I emailed Pete to find out what it costs. Anybody here using his VTAF adjuster? It is on top of the plinth and supposedly allows adjusting VTA while the music is playing.
http://www.vtaf.com/ (http://www.vtaf.com/)

I had an unused DirecTV box lying around so I called to remove it from my bill and they sent a recovery box.

The box has these big blue foam "dots" on the inside as packaging material. They don't rebound from squeezing very quickly, meaning they have high internal friction to absorb shock. 

Being an obsessed audiophile, I could think of only one purpose for these blue dots. Put 'em under the TT!

So I pulled three of them off of the box and stuck them under the TT near the tiny stock spikes. The TT weight compressed them nicely, about 1cm of squish, so I thought they would be well loaded. I put the needle on a record and walked away. Slightly less reaction to footfalls, sounded similar, maybe a little less full in the mid bass, but I didn't have time to sit down to do a comparison. After the side was done, I returned to flip it when I noticed that the whole deck was tilted about 5 degrees to one side!

I assumed these things were identical in size, but they are not molded, they really are "dots" made by dropping liquid onto a flat surface where they foam up and solidify, like a cookie.  The height varies by 1 cm. I could fiddle with leveling the dots from below but life's too short.  Funny enough to share though!

I have been adjusting VTA by ear and I think I got it right now. Bass is tight and physical, treble is penetrating and crisp. The sound is full and clear, not too detailed, not too boomy. Music sounds full, clear and lively.

Funny, the VTA is set about where it was when I got it, pivot is about .125" lower than a horizontal arm. But it didn't sound anything like this when I got it. I am very pleased with the sound of the Concept now. For reference with Maestro Wood the distance from arm plate to bottom edge of the top lip of pedestal is .97". With a dial caliper I can measure VTA changes accurately to within .010".

Quote from: richidoo on June 12, 2013, 01:16:08 PM
I have been adjusting VTA by ear and I think I got it right now. Bass is tight and physical, treble is penetrating and crisp. The sound is full and clear, not too detailed, not too boomy. Music sounds full, clear and lively.

Funny, the VTA is set about where it was when I got it, pivot is about .125" lower than a horizontal arm. But it didn't sound anything like this when I got it. I am very pleased with the sound of the Concept now. For reference with Maestro Wood the distance from arm plate to bottom edge of the top lip of pedestal is .97". With a dial caliper I can measure VTA changes accurately to within .010".

Ok, Rich, how is your L-R channel balance? How's your azimuth?... My Maestro stylus was skewed on the cantilever when I picked it up new. Luckily I had "Fozgo" to the rescue!

Cheers,
Pete

Thanks Pete! I found some posts about azi, I will try to check it with a PC scope.

For some reason the vibration sensitivity has been getting worse lately. Horns can sound like gargling. I think some of it is LF resonance from the woofers, and house vibes.

TT was on a lowboy table like this:
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0145/6022/products/SD22CN722X-WFHC-COLL-S_large.jpg?5026)
So I put it on the floor in a corner of exterior foundation walls and it seems better. Footfalls much less effect, but I have lost some focus and some bass volume. It is on a piece of plywood resting on carpet and pad, too soft.

I have a wall mount designed. I will start a new thread. (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=4629)

Response from Clearaudio in Germany:

"Thank you for your email and your interest in our hi-fi components.

Please use the clearaudio bearing oil in the small bottle.

You should renew the oil every two years with 1-2 drops. If you notice any changes you can check the bearing and put 1-2 drops into it if necessary.

With best regards,
Franziska Wimmelbacher
Auszubildende Backoffice"

My friend Den from Charlotte helped me with my setup today. He has a higher model of Clearaudio TT and he has his dialed in so he had some good suggestions.

Using his recommended printed protractor I found that the cart body was straight, but the stylus was angled off a couple degrees. I loosened the cart screws and there was enough slop to dial out the bent needle. The arm has foolproof cart mount that doesn't allow much yaw adjustment. But there was just enough. I didn't notice that the needle was off when I used Pman's Geodisk a couple months ago.

Den also told me that the VTF changes a little with VTA adjustments, so I rechecked that and I found it was way off, like 3+g! I did set that recently, but I obviously f'd it up.  I readjusted that down to 2.2g as recommended for the cart.

I cleaned the stylus with MoFi LP#9 and inspected it. There was a micro dust hair hanging off the stylus. I pulled it off with tweezies and stuck on a record that I listen to a lot, Mulligan and Desmond, Two of a Mind.

Wowzies!! What a huge improvement. Just better in every way. More detail, denser tone, more space, deeper and louder bass. I could hear the very slight echo in the reverb on Desmond's sax.

Thanks to Den for the big assist.

  Coolio Richidoo. Next time clean that stylus with a small piece of Blu-tak or equivilent. Just drop the styus on it and lift after 3 seconds or so. Cleaner than clean, newer than new , better than better, better and improved and so on.  :thumb:



charles

Thanks Charles. I have ZeroDust sticky blob needle cleaner but it would not remove this piece of lint, nor did liquid cleaner. It must have been wrapped around something. Blu Tack is a good idea.

Use a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser to make your stylus like brand new.  Works amazing!     :thumb:

How to clean your stylus with a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGvPd9zJVp4#ws)

Quote from: toobluvr on June 30, 2013, 12:22:27 PM
Use a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser to make your stylus like brand new.  Works amazing!     :thumb:

How to clean your stylus with a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGvPd9zJVp4#ws)

Yes, very effective! Been doing that for ~5 years... got the idea from the gentleman who makes the Bren1 record clamps...

Cool!

Thank you Gentlemen!  I have scrubbed crayons off of walls with it, works like a miracle... but not tried it on stylus - yet!

Quote from: richidoo on June 30, 2013, 04:45:51 PM
Thank you Gentlemen!  I have scrubbed crayons off of walls with it, works like a miracle... but not tried it on stylus - yet!

Be sure to use a fresh piece. You wouldn't want to get any crayon wax on that stylus would you?    :shock:  :lol:

Quote from: tmazz on June 30, 2013, 10:04:00 PMBe sure to use a fresh piece. You wouldn't want to get any crayon wax on that stylus would you?    :shock:  :lol:

Funny!! Thankfully, the crayon scrubbing was 12 years ago.   :D

Hey, man, thanks for posting. I just picked up a demo version of the Clearaudio Concept w/o cartridge, and had many of the the same issues.

Your post and your threads have helped me tremendously, so I wanted to contribute something back to you, in turn.

First, I want to suggest that you really should be haunting Mapleshade Audio and Analog Planet.  Both of them have solutions, many of them free, for the same issues that seem to plague you most.

Note: I have found that Pierre at Mapleshade can sometimes be too "my way or the highway" for my taste, even though he's often correct. So I prefer Mikey Fremer's AP approach, which is far more open and relaxed, open to contradictory opinions, and changes of mind.

_______________________

A word about protractors.

First, suggestions you've received about print-out protractors from this or that website is too ridiculous to seriously consider. And I'll remind you why: Paper protractors align the cartridge body, not the stylus cantilever, but your stylus/cantilever most likely isn't aligned with your cartridge body, anyway — especially, if you have a sub-$2,000 cartridge.)

Does it even matter if your cartridge body is aligned? No. But does it matter if the stylus/cantilever is? Well, it's the only thing that DOES!!

I trust the old saying, "Not worth the paper it's printed on," isn't entirely unknown to you. And it applies here.

_____________

Building your own protractor, on the other hand, is a great idea — IF you make sure to create a good business plan, since you are now entering the protractor-building (and selling) business. As opposed to the music-listening-to hobby. (But who knows, it may pay for your audio hobby.)

Since the dB company makes a universal protractor for under $100, and has been selling the same model since the Seventies, it's probably not a bad business to be in.

Unfortunately, protractor-building will likely take you about a year before your first working model, so that might not be what you have in mind for right now.

Before proceeding further, take the time to watch Mikey Fremer use a protractor to set up a turntable, just to see what's involved and hear the explanations for what he's doing:

RMAF09: Turntable Set-up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCJ7nAdITdk#)

BTW, Clearaudio makes a protractor for its turntables that's less expensive than the one Mikey uses on YouTube, available from Music Direct ( music direct.com ) as the "Clearaudio - Cartridge Alignment Gauge."

The advantage of the Clearaudio protractor over Mikey's is the overhang and offset angle are adjusted simultaneously; you'll notice Mikey has to set one, then set the other... and then he has to go back to set the first one again.

Another alternative: You could have Mint custom-build you a protractor for your particular arm and your particular cartridge. However, this won't fit any other arm or cartridge. Your custom protractor will take about 10 days to create. (See mintlp.com for more.)

_______________________

As you seem to have already discovered (maybe, maybe not), there are three allen wrenches you need for the Clearaudio Concept. Two are included with the product in the box, to set the tonearm height and adjust the cartridge. A third is not included, a 1.5 mm one, to set the height of the cueing (armlift) mechanism.

Incidentally, my Grado cartridge is 5/8" tall, same as the Clearaudio cartridge that ships with the Concept.

(BTW, did you actually measure your cartridge's height before you adjusted the arm height, or did you guess? Originally, I guessed, and was wrong.)

Also, like yours my cartridge is wood, with six sides, not a four-sided rectangle with two parallel sides.

_____________

You'll require a 180 g. LP for most of the tonearm + headshell settings you need to make on the Concept, according to Clearaudio.

NOTE: A "parallel" tonearm is parallel to the LP's surface with the 180 g. record on it. If you are using a mat, the mat would be between the platter and the record. You can pick up a bubble mini-level at Home Depot, Lowe's etc.

NOTE!! "Level with" does NOT equal "parallel." (See your May 9 2013 11:58 posting.) They are referring to different ideals. "Level with" here just refers to mounting crookedly, at an angle, on the plinth.

A handy set-up trick: Place a CD, shiny side up, on the platter (or the 180 g. LP) when you need to see a mirror reflection.

You want alignment tools? You say you want alignment tools, boy? Well, Clearaudio has got 'em!! How much money do ya have, son? Clearaudio is ready to take it all!! (You can print out a PDF of the Clearaudio catalog, including set-up tools, at the Clearaudio website.)

If you've removed/modded the arm lifter for cueing, you've probably done something wrong. But I have no idea what.

I have a mini-level gauge (with bubbles) to check if a tonearm is parallel to the platter with an LP on it. Mini-levels like this are dirt cheap at Home Depot, Lowe's etc. Endlessly useful in hifi.

Tragically, a Shure tracking force gauge WILL NOT work with the Concept tonearm, which requires a special tracking force gauge (or another, more costly Clearaudio equivalent) that's included with the new product in the box.

The reason: The Shure gauge is just too high for your tonearm's magnetic bearing to function properly. (I have this from the turntable setup guy at a Clearaudio dealership.)

The Clearaudio gauge is MUCH lower profile than the Shure; in fact, the thickness of the WHOLE Clearaudio gauge is the same as just the balance beam on the Shure.

____________

Using a mat is probably a good idea. (Mats are mandatory for metal platters, but Clearaudio makes their Concept platters out of Delrin, a thermoplastic used in precision parts requiring high stiffness, low friction, and excellent dimensional stability.)

Obviously, you don't want your LP's vibrations to travel down to the platter. In addition, drag from the stylus in the groove can affect platter speed. Hence, for both reasons, you really want to use a mat.

Avoid a felt mat, at least during setup, as felt can trap the stylus and twist it, destroying your cantilever. (Also, felt attracts dust.)

Incidentally, mats represent a huge (and controversial) subject in themselves, so you should search the Web for various opinions and come to your own conclusion. I see most high end turntable manufacturers have standardized on cork for their mat material.

Also, check out Mapleshade, which — of course!! — has a "better" idea: Brass micropoints and a record clamp instead of mats.

Whether or not you choose to use a mat, you'll definitely need a record clamp. Clearaudio has an inexpensive plastic model for their Concept (and other models) known as the "Clever Clamp."

When selecting your clamp, make sure it won't bump your cartridge on the runout groove at the end of each side of an LP. NOTE: Runout grooves on LPs aren't standardized, and neither are cartridge body dimensions, so you'll need to check several examples just to be sure.

See http://www.vinylcare.co.uk/dry-clean-stylus-cleaner.html (http://www.vinylcare.co.uk/dry-clean-stylus-cleaner.html) for a foam-style stylus cleaner. I have one like this, but forget where I bought it. Someplace in the US, though. This thing will work when the gels can't/don't. Me, I just got my $600 cartridge retyped for $400. C'mon, d'ya SERIOUSLY think I'm going to trust a Magic Eraser with my stylus?!

_____________________

And now, to the subject of VTA, or "vertical tracking angle."

The first thing to know: By vertical, we don't mean vertical, or 90 degrees, we mean not-vertical, more like 92 degrees.

The second thing to know: By "tracking,"  we don't mean we measure it while the stylus is actually tracking, but, instead, while it's static.

The third thing to know: By the "correct angle," we don't refer to something you can measure visually, even with a microscope, but something we an only hear.

Also, we're not speaking of the cantilever's angle, something we can see, but rather the stylus' angle, which we can't — at least, not without a USB microscope and specialized computer software.

Now, I'm someone who can't write the word "reality" without putting quotes around it, but even a guy like me remains bedaffled by the term VTA and what it "really means."

For what it's worth (i.e., not much): "Perfect" VTA is (usually) said to be about 91.5 degrees. But that number changes with every LP. (Why, for your Concept, you'll need a 180 g. LP to set the VTA.)

Oh, and  by the way: Yes, there really are people who set a different VTA for for each recording they play. (There is a technical term for this, and that term is "silly.") Which is why there are, in fact, manufacturers selling tonearms that can be adjusted for "correct" VTA while playing a record. (Thankfully, your Concept isn't one of those!!)

Incidentally, Mapleshade suggests you reset the VTA every six months. Sounds like fun.

Finally, I will say this: The best explanations I've seen of VTA come from Mikey Fremer at Analog Planet (and his interviews on YouTube), and the worst come from Pierre at Mapleshade.

(Incidentally, you speak of a "minus 2 degrees" VTA, but that's impossible. What are you really measuring?)

_______________

Re: Using "electronic test bench equipment," as tmazz suggests for setup.

No.

A better plan: Using a USB microscope from amazon.com plugged into your computer, plus Adjust+ ( from adjust plus.com ) software.

"Electronic test bench equipment" in this case means MEASURING downstream of your amplifier, using a voltmeter and a black box you build, when what you really want to do is to SEE what you're doing, visually.

For details and recommended materials, visit Analog Planet.

________________________

On using a strobe: So, what do you do if you see an issue with platter speed? How would you adjust for that? One thought: Clearaudio sells a speed control for their turntables.

Also, the most delicate, most critical, most weight-sensitive part of your platter is the rim. Right, so Tom S suggests just hanging strobe tape onto the rim with BluTack. Right, what could possibly go wrong? (Predictably, he measured a speed discrepancy.)

A better plan: Just buy yourself a Clearaudio metal strobe disc. At least your readings will be semi-accurate then!

As for paper strobes downloaded from the Web? Well, I could never get mine to lie flat on the platter, so all I ever get's a blur. I'd go for the metal one.

Once again, thanks for sharing your advents, and your advice. It was invaluable to me.

Sandy

Thanks Sandy!! Some great information there, and a lot to consider.

I'm glad that my blind and stupid stumblings in TT-land have been entertaining to someone!

With the guidance of some helpful and patient friends on this forum and AudioCircle I was able to achieve a very wonderful sound on my TT, so I won't be changing anything until this cart wears out, which, at the rate I am listening to vinyl these days will be a long time from now.  Hopefully Rega RP8 will still be available by then... ;)

Welcome to AudioNervosa, and congratulations on making (imo) the longest, most opinionated, most valuable, most humorous first post evah!  :thumb:

Rich

Hey Sandy welcome aboard. good post.


charles

Not to hijack the thread this is related: I have a Linn with Ittok LIV (?) arm. I believe there is an allen screw that allows me to adjust VTA. I have never messed around with the adjustment even though I have changed cartridges (now a Benz Micro SMS) Should I experiment with this? any suggestions

Yeah, VTA is worth playing with. It affects the overall tonal balance. My sound improved greatly by fiddling with it, but I had tried adjusting it before without much improvement. Then I stumbled across the right setting and BAM, liquid ear sex.

Mark your starting place before you start
Make small adjustments
Learn what happens moving in each direction from your starting point
Be patient, it is even more frustrating than speaker positioning

Try putting an old rubber mat or two on the platter just to see how it affects the sound.

Sandy, I didn't know that the cue mechanism height was adjustable! Thanks