Let's talk about pre-amps!

[richidoo]

I think we all agree by our participation in this hobby that a low distortion system is desireable. Within that envelope there are many choices, which sound very different. The rest of the system will have a big impact on the sound, preamp is important but not the sole determiner of distortion level. Even high end speakers are frequently 3% and higher.

The reason for the stereo is to feel emotion on demand.  It is a joy button. Anything that reduces the amount of joy you feel while listening to the musician's emotional message is distortion. Emotion is the core of the music, not sound. A syrupy SET can evoke as much emotion as a krell amp with the appropriate use. A ML preamp is lower distortion then VTL 7.5 but sounds very different. One who loves the ML would probably hate the VTL and certainly vice versa (I am biased like my tubes.)

We know that "audio" (mechanical/electrical/acoustical systems) is the medium that transmits the feeling from band to listener, but the part of audio that we can measure has no parameters related to emotion. So if the goal of building a system is to enjoy music, then we can't measure a system's or a component's ability to enable that by using traditional bench test performance specs. Those can only judge the circuit as if it were a contest to hold the record for best spec and nothing about the feeling that can flow through that circuit. That is fine for DIYaudio.com types, who love cloning old SS amps for fun, but it is not valid evaluation for music loving listeners.

A live performance is not sterile, and I think any deviation from that feeling you get at a concert is distortion. I agree that the direct connection doesn't match the feeling of a preamp in practice, but if you are a bench test guy, a preamp is counter intuitive. Adding a box that claims as good as a straight wire is a paradox, and yet it is considered essential by experienced audiophiles. Steve proposed that preamp love which sounds different from straight wire is due to a preamp designer deliberately juicing up the sound. His theory makes sense to me so I'm plunging in, hope not to hit my head on the bottom. I'm certain that within the school of minimal voicing there are preamps that can transmit the soul and feeling intact, just as well if not better than those preamps which are highly voiced for pleasure. I want to be able to choose my feeling and timing of pleasure without a layer of mayonnaise on there whether I like mayonnaise or not.

If one preamp is voiced to sound ballsy but smooth, how will it play music that is quirky and delicate? Neutral makes the most sense, and to me that means lowest distortion on the bench and in feeling.

I'm starting to think that the preamp has become technically unnecessary, but ironically it remains the reason we build the rest of the system. It's like it has an invisible cable connected in the back that says "Pleasure Input" which connects to the soul of the music. If it is a simple as that, and if we wish to give that acknowledgement of artistic mastery to our favorite preamps designers, I'm all for it. I don't care what mental system I find to meaningfully evaluate preamps, as long as it works and makes a little bit of sense to me, which shouldn't be too hard.

I for one am curious about your testing procedure, Steve. It would be very valuable to know how a component could be legitimately compared to straightwire, if it is a straightforward technique that can be described in words. I know some artistic processes are not always describable. Since Mike has tried to do this before, perhaps not to your method, maybe he would appreciate learning your method too?   One thing we do try avoid on AN is suggesting to drop it, although I don't think you meant it that way based on your extremely supportive and helpful previous responses. We like to explore and learn from each other most of all. That's why we're not afraid to drop trou and embarass ourselves with dumb annoying questions, same thing, over and over, about preamps, ohmygod not again...    Well, at least that's true for me... hahaaha
Rich

[bpape]

If you're dropping trou, I'm leaving... 

Bryan

[steve]

Hi Rich, Mike,

First off, we need him on the record with as much detail as possible. I don't want any after the fact, changing story, surprises.

So tell me if I am wrong Mike. You listened, disconnected the preamp, and connected the player directly to the amp and listened again. Any and all detail would be welcome.

I asked to drop it so as no damage, or minimal damage would be done. In a week or so, no one will remember this string anyway. But that decision is yours.


I agree Bpape. Any dropped trou and I am gone.

[miklorsmith]

First off, we need him on the record with as much detail as possible. I don't want any after the fact, changing story, surprises.

So tell me if I am wrong Mike. You listened, disconnected the preamp, and connected the player directly to the amp and listened again. Any and all detail would be welcome.

I asked to drop it so as no damage, or minimal damage would be done. In a week or so, no one will remember this string anyway. But that decision is yours.

"We" need "him" on the record?  Is that "you" referring to me?  If so, you're doubting my honesty and laying the strategy bare of how you might trap me in half-truths or outright lies.

I sincerely hope I misread this.  If not, I'm out of this discussion and I guarantee it isn't something I'll forget in a week.

[richidoo]

Nope, no trou - I promise. Figure of speech. You guys are tough! I better start proofreading or my foot in mouth disease will show.

I hope this thread is still going in a week! There is a lot to talk about preamps if we can keep it constructive.

Steve, please describe your testing procedure to compare a component to straight wire? That's more helpful than knocking Mike's way which is just common sense and something anyone would try without knowing a better way. Thanks!
Rich

[Bunky]

I always used to think that a neutral preamp meant that it would sound sterile,bland and uninspiring but now i realize that it is just a clearer less colored pathway between myself and the music. in fact it takes me deeper into the music and allows me to enjoy it even more. if a preamp or system for that matter sounds sterile there is something wrong and it is not really Neutral. thanks....WCW III

[WEEZ]

Bunky, I happen to agree.

WEEZ

[steve]

"Steve, please describe your testing procedure to compare a component to straight wire? That's more helpful than knocking Mike's way which is just common sense and something anyone would try without knowing a better way. Thanks!
Rich"

"I have tried to be relatively kind asking at least twice now, to just let it go. But he won't. In fact he has outright said from the beginning my multiple methods of testing and correlating (even though he doesn't know what they even are) are nonsense. How does one condemn something before one even knows what it is??

At first Mike's test looks good, but it is not accurate.

The process he describes is disconnecting the preamp from the system, then reconnecting the source directly to the amp and comparing.

Did he match the volumes? I assume, hope he did, but how accurately? Hopefully close.

When he disconnected the preamp, he eliminated an IC. Right there is a problem, maybe major problem.

What about the differences the source sees from the two different components, both resistive and capacitive?

That simplified, basic test is not nearly rigorous enough for the results to be meaningful. I just pointed out a couple of flaws right there.

I will not be giving my methods for several reasons.

First, I am getting tired of giving and giving and nothing in return, say from my white papers. In fact, some companies have stabbed me in the back. A worker deserves to be compensated.

Second, why should I give competitors information freely, that took years to develop and work out? They shill against me as it is.

Anyway, my suggestion to Mike is, just drop it.

Bunky, you are right. How can a neutral and accurate sounding be called sterile? But over the years I have seen definitions change esp, on some forums (not this or AC). An integrated amp is advertised as having just a passive preamp. I guess the active preamp gainstage disappeared. Pretty clever, deceiving that a stage has been eliminated when they just renamed it.
Pretty clever.

By the way, do I take Mike's comment that he won't forget in a week as a threat? Yet he put down my procedures from the very start (as if he is above all) and I did not threaten him. I just posted my findings of the Mod via my own multiple procedures. 

[WEEZ]

When I started this thread over (4) months ago, I said it would either be interesting...or it would fizzle.  I, for one, find the discussions interesting as long as they can remain civil. And while conflict may be interesting to some...it is not to this moderator. Nothing constructive can come from it.

Let's everybody keep their pants on , and discuss the merits (or lack of) of preamps and how they either help your system or not; what you like or don't like; etc.

It is clear that most of the posters to this thread use one (except Double Ugly...you there Jim?) so we have that in common. (Oh yeah, and Rich is on the fence )

Thanks,

WEEZ

[miklorsmith]

I had a response typed out, then saw WEEZ' last message.  I've toned it down considerably, to this:

Steve, you impugne my intelligence, then honesty, then accuse ME of not "letting it go"?  You say I've called your testing methodology "nonsense", though that's your word and I've said nothing of the sort.  

On preamps, I like what sounds good to me.  Terminology like "neutral", "colored", whatever, means different things to each listener.  We could all listen to the same system and come out with as many opinions as attendees.  It's possible my rich, tonal colors mean "neutral" to someone else.  That person may say the system I'd describe as "neutral" is bleached and underdeveloped tonally.  Why?  Our experiences are different, as well as our understandings of terms which are not standardized in any way.

What I'm saying is that ultimately we may all be saying the same thing, but getting wrapped around the axle over terminology and experience.

[Bunky]

When I started this thread over (4) months ago, I said it would either be interesting...or it would fizzle.  I, for one, find the discussions interesting as long as they can remain civil. And while conflict may be interesting to some...it is not to this moderator. Nothing constructive can come from it.

Let's everybody keep their pants on , and discuss the merits (or lack of) of preamps and how they either help your system or not; what you like or don't like; etc.

It is clear that most of the posters to this thread use one (except Double Ugly...you there Jim?) so we have that in common. (Oh yeah, and Rich is on the fence )

Thanks,

WEEZ

TUBE PREAMP'S RULE!

[steve]

"Steve, you impugne my intelligence, then honesty, then accuse ME of not "letting it go"?  You say I've called your testing methodology "nonsense", though that's your word and I've said nothing of the sort."

This is what you stated on page 3:
"Theory?  Sure.  Reality/experience?  No." You did not even know my testing methods, yet you dismissed my results in no uncertain terms. You could have at least asked for my procedures at that point before a radical dismissal.
 
"On preamps, I like what sounds good to me.  Terminology like "neutral", "colored", whatever, means different things to each listener.  We could all listen to the same system and come out with as many opinions as attendees.  It's possible my rich, tonal colors mean "neutral" to someone else.  That person may say the system I'd describe as "neutral" is bleached and underdeveloped tonally.  Why?  Our experiences are different, as well as our understandings of terms which are not standardized in any way."

I thought we agreed that natural, neutral means what the instrument/voice sounds like live?
I thought I made it perfectly clear that a wire with gain means that the music is not altered in anyway as it "passes through". (How can one articulate so the public understands when definitions are constantly changed?)

"What I'm saying is that ultimately we may all be saying the same thing, but getting wrapped around the axle over terminology and experience."

Could be, but the whole "discussion" started when I posted my results that the Mod is not a straightwire with gain but sterile vs a wire.

Mike, I still wish you the best on your new endeavor.

[WEEZ]

Mike,

You are quite possibly correct. We may all be describing the same thing using different words. In the end, it's all about the music anyhow. It's just interesting to read about the many different paths we have travelled to reach the same goal. And I, for one, think there are many paths. 

Steve,

I understand why you don't wish to give away trade secrets. You would be foolish to do so. And any questions asked here regarding the testing you have done to come to your conclusions certainly did not have the intention of doing so, I am sure. We are not engineers, here, for the most part...just music lovers with an interest in the gear that helps to get us to the next level in our 'cure' for nervosa.

Don

[bpape]

I'm in the business.  I understand keeping secrets to one's self.  However, a testing method?  If the testing method is something that ALL of us could benefit from and would only surely in your opinion point us down the same path as you are going Steve, what is the harm?

Bryan

[Bunky]

I'm in the business.  I understand keeping secrets to one's self.  However, a testing method?  If the testing method is something that ALL of us could benefit from and would only surely in your opinion point us down the same path as you are going Steve, what is the harm?

Bryan

I think that Steve's methods might be proprietary to his SAS AudioLab's and as WEEZ pointed out a trade secret. a small company needs every edge it can get to stay competitive. thanks....WCW III