Help! I can't get enough tracking force- counterweight all the way forward

James Edward · March 10, 2010, 01:58:32 PM

I must be the only person to have a problem setting up a new VPI Classic...
I am using a cartridge that weighs 7.5 grams (VPI specifies 7-11), the longest screws,
but still I can only get the tracking force to 1.8 grams or so.The counterweight cannot
be moved forward any more. It is right at the pivot point.
This seems to be an odd problem; most all tracking force issues addressed seem to be
when the counterweight is too light, not too heavy.

I'm thinking that maybe I could raise the arm and that would send the balance further
forward.

Any thoughts appreciated.

richidoo · March 10, 2010, 02:15:04 PM

One of these should work:

Congrats on the new TT James! I heard it at RobS's house, it is awesome. Gave me chills listening to Stan Kenton.

I am curious why not add small weight above the cart, I guess ugly is a good enough reason not to.

Rob S. · March 10, 2010, 02:21:32 PM

I hear ya James. VPI will swap it out for you, no charge. I haven't sent mine in yet, I'm waiting for a period of time when I'll be gone for a few days so I don't have to wait without the vinyl spinning for too long.

What I did was tape a small metal disc on top of the head to the tonearm. It looks silly but works fine.
Make sure you don't tape it over the groove so the alloy rod can be used for th azimuth setting.

Enjoy!

Rob S.

James Edward · March 10, 2010, 02:51:01 PM

Funny Rich, I said to my wife- does anyone in the neighborhood go fishing? I'll borrow a sinker.

Rob- I'm 50 years old and I remember as a kid putting a nickel on top of the headshell whenever a record would skip- I can't believe I'm resorting to that on a slightly more expensive Victrola...

Rob S. · March 10, 2010, 03:43:08 PM

funny thing.... when I asked the VPI woman if she could send me the next size counterweight and I could return the existing one, she said she needed mine first. I guess everyone who said they would return the original counter weight never did, so now they need the original 1st. I wonder what they reuse the weights for? another TT?

Rob s.

James Edward · March 10, 2010, 05:25:37 PM

I've gone with a standard US dime. I'm quietly fuming, as I can't believe with all the setup required,
that a coin is necessary.
As I was unpacking the VPI Classic, I was remarking to myself how well thought out everything was. Now I have to wait for my counterweight to go back, and a new one to arrive?
Reminds me of when I contacted Titan locks about the 'lifetime finish' coming off my front door lock. They told me to send the old one back and after inspection, a new one would be sent. WTF?
Not happy.

Rob S. · March 10, 2010, 06:26:19 PM

James:
Look at the original posters last picture in his series. What the hell is that on top of his tonearm?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78813.0

What's silly is that my cartridge is the avg weight also. and that VPI makes several different counterweights, why not ship the most common ( average weight ) one?

Rob s.

richidoo · March 10, 2010, 08:06:11 PM

So is the problem that they put the wrong counter weight on the arm by mistake?

Good, so it can be fixed and stay pretty.

tmazz · March 10, 2010, 11:52:21 PM

VPI sells a 3 gram headshell weight for $15 (VPI Part # D1016.) It could be shipped out right away and would save you the time and expense of shipping back the counterweight you have now.

Here is another thought - if you go down to your local golf shop, they usually sell lead tape strips (normally used for adding weight to club heads) that you could put on the underside of the headshell. If you are already at 1.8g (which is the lowest recommended tracking force for the 10x5) you only need to at a few 10ths. [Jim you can try the Golfsmith store in on Jericho Tpke in E Northport (by Larkfield?)]

BobM · March 11, 2010, 05:46:16 AM

Adding lead or any other weight to the headshell is going to be increasing the mass of the tonearm. That will affect the resonant frequency. However, adding mass will LOWER the resonant frequency, which is a good thing overall.

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php

Still, it's a relatively cheap thing for VPI to just include 2 different counterweights with the TT to avoid this problem in the first place. Hell, my tonearm came with4 different weights and instructions on how best to use them in combination for any desired weight offset.

tmazz · March 11, 2010, 08:08:03 AM

Quote from: richidoo on March 10, 2010, 08:06:11 PM
So is the problem that they put the wrong counter weight on the arm by mistake?

Good, so it can be fixed and stay pretty.

Although Jim needs a different counterweight, I am not sure that it is because of any kind of "mistake" per se. The cartridge that Jim purchased (separately from the TT) is all the way at one end of the recommended weight rage for the stock counterweight. Although I do agree with Bob, in that given the price they get for the TT you would think that they could include the different counterweight(s) so the user would not run into these problems. But I do have to say, I have been a VPI owner for over twenty years and in that time have networked with many, many other VPI owners (like Linn owners, we are a dedicated little brotherhood) and this is the first time I have ever heard about having a bad experience with a VPI right out of the box like this. And this may be a topic for a breakoff thread, but back in the day, most everybody I knew who bought a VPI, got it from an authorized brick and mortar dealer who did the setup for him and also kept the other counterweights in stock so they could be swapped out as needed given the chosen cartridge. I would think this is why they don't all come packed with the unit. And as the business model for high end retailing starts to shift more and more away from dealers towards on-line sales (who thought 10 years ago that we would ever see authorized online dealers for lines such as Thiel and Martin-Logan?) I think we are going to see more and more problems of this nature and manufacturers are going to have to adjust their thinking to plan for a more "self-service" world where they cannot count on a dealer network to run interference with the customers and solve these little problems. I have long been an advocate of developing a long term relationship with a high end dealer. Although it may cost you a few extra shekels are getting smaller and smaller on any give purchase I always felt that it was money well spent in terms on the knowledge and service I got in return. Of course there were always lousy dealers out there, but when you hooked up with a good one it was gold. Unfortunately the world is changing and the opportunities for developing these kinds of relationships. While on-line sales may be more transactionally efficient I am not sure that the lower price is worth it given what you lose in terms of the whole purchasing experience. Forums like this can help fill in some of the knowledge gaps, but AN cannot go into the back room and hand you a replacement counterweight on the spot when your chosen cartridge won't balance

Looks like I hijacked another thread...sorry about that.

I could stay on topic, but what fun is that?

richidoo · March 11, 2010, 08:49:09 AM

Well within topic divergence specs, Tom!

I surmised it might be a mistake only because they say 7g cart is OK, but the arm can't swing it. Well, I guess it can, as long as 1.5g tracking weight is all you need. I have read than some carts only need .75g. So how much force do you want to apply to your cartridge, James? My (MM) AT cart sounds best at 2.25g, but it's probably heavier than yours too.

I have latent analog tendencies. Please humor me.

Rob S. · March 11, 2010, 09:55:35 AM

Ok guys......which will sound better?:

1) Use a headshell weight and keep my existing counterweight and keep my tracking force at 2.0gm

2) Use NO headshell weight and use VPI's slightly lighter counterweight and keeping the force at 2.0gm.

Shouldn't be any difference should there? After reading BobM's post, It seems the headshell w/more mass on it would provide the lower resonance frequency.... but is it really if the counterweight change negates this?

Rob S.

tmazz · March 11, 2010, 11:45:36 AM

VPI sells both different size counterweights and headshell weights. I would call Mike in the VPI service department and ask them which they would recommend and why. Since they designed the arm from the ground up I am sure that hey have an opinion of which solution should be used in what situation. I would be interested to hear what he has to say.

James Edward · March 11, 2010, 12:08:48 PM

I just got off the phone with Mr. Weisfeld.
To Rob S.- He states that with a lower weight cartridge, it is better to use a headshell weight. He says if I preferred, however, the dealer should supply me with a different weight.

Until I get a real headshell weight, I'm using the lead weight from Golfsmith suggested by Tom.

For those that want to further play, he said that taking out the fine adjustment screw in the back of the tonearm might also be enough to solve the problem.
Thanks for the suggestions...