NCore Amp

[richidoo]

The only high end audio amplifier that I know of which uses an integrated circuit is Red Wine Audio, and their chip is made by Tripath, now gone. Every other class D amp I know of uses a discreet amplifier circuit, or at least discreet output transistors.  There is no significant cost saving between amplifier topologies. Power supply, parts quality, box, accessories are what cost. With class D amps, what you save with smaller heat sink you add with output filter and RF screening.

[bhobba]

No. A manufacture sets a retail price based on, cost, advertising and overhead.
   It used to be 5 times cost for most products. However times have changed and the ratio as well.
   With specialty items like audio products it depends on the size of the manf. Small companies cannot buy at volume so parts and the like are more expensive for them. Limited sales also play a role. Then there are custom designs.
    If a distributor is involved he gets 10 to 20% dealer gets 40%. Yes it is marked up like any other business.
    Direct sales eliminate the distributor and dealer. So less expensive products. It appears lately the direct sales has caught up to brick and mortar prices.  
   The premise for our business model is to discount everything we sell and provide a free home demo at our cost. Everyone is a winner. Business is business however maybe we can offer another alternative. Bring it to ya and save ya money.

Oh dear aren't that the truth.  Its always wise to look at what the manufacturer of what you are getting actually spends their money on.   Magico for example uses nine times their cost but spends a fortune on marketing.  Smaller manufacturers I know use a twice the price model but spend virtually nothing on marketing and sell direct - but of course you don't know about them - which is why you need forums like this.

Its the reason (and this is just an example) the Arions blow the much much more expensive Mac 501's out of the water - its not that the Mac's are poor amps or anything like that - its simply the markups a product like that has compared to a hand built amp sold direct.

Thanks
Bill

[topround]

I believe one also has to look at resale value as well.
The smaller brands have to offer more value because you lose so much if you want to sell it.
I know people who build gear who want to sell their gear for big money, because it sounds great, and it does.
But for the end user, the buyer, there are more lines in the equation that need to be addressed.
A Picasso may sell for millions of dollars today, but not when he first started out putting paint to canvas.

Of course if you don't care about resale value then it is a different matter. But if you spent 5K for a piece to only resell it for 1/10 of cost, it would upset you. Look at list price for high end cables over resale prices, cables get killed in the used market. Why buy new? People are not even embarrased to low ball expensive cables!
Value is something that is earned over time, people may poo poo Audio Research or Conrad Johnson gear, but they do retain their value, whether you may want to own any of their gear is up to you, but in the end you will always be able to sell it, and move on with out getting too hurt.

Of course people will always say it sounds great why would I ever sell it, and when you sell it and  lose a large percentage of your money, you will think differently.

I have always believed that a strong resale value means it is a good product

[BobM]

As most of us know, once a piece is about 3 years old, or if it has been replaced by the next newest and greatest model, it's used resale is a little over half it's original retail. That about jives with the value of a brand new piece at dealer discount or industry insider accommodation.

You can get great stuff on the used market at half price if you are not the type that just has to have it new, or own something that has just been reviewed in a mag. And usually, if you don;t like it, you can resell it at little to no loss, and maybe a gain. In a normal market, that is. These days it is truly a buyers market because there are so few of them.

DIY pieces or heavily modded pieces or something that is niche and little known has to be a purchase based on love, with no resale consideration.

[Carlman]

As to cost, I guess it just depends on whether you budget for the possibility of it not working out or not. 
If the manufacturer is small with no dealer network, they have to offer a demo or 60-day trial or something if they intend to stay in business... Whatever the cost, the resale will be half or less.
How many (giant killer) brands have come and gone over the past 10 years?  I remember their faces but not their names.  

In any case, if it sounds good to most people, and the manufacturer has a good business model, it'll probably do OK and be around a while.  Not always but usually. 

I accept that I'm at the fringe of consumer electronics and all the risks that go with that.  And I'm really satisfied with how my system sounds.  I've spent some money and consider the path to get there all part of the hobby... kind of like paying for education.  I don't consider all the money I've spent over the years part of my current system's cost.... but that's me.

[rollo]

  It has been awhile since we discussed the N-cores. There are commercial offerings at $12,000 and $14,000, Merrill and Mola Mola.
   They use the OEM boards. Has anyone directly compared them to an N-Core DIY amp? Big price difference.
   


charles
   

   

[machinehead]

Ive read that the OEM board is better than the DIY version, but cant confirm it. Have you had a chance to hear any of them yet Rollo?

[rollo]

Ive read that the OEM board is better than the DIY version, but cant confirm it. Have you had a chance to hear any of them yet Rollo?

  Not yet. No one I know has them in NY. Just curious because of all the hype. Would love to compare to the Arions as a learning experience.



charles

[AcidJazz]

Has anyone directly compared them to an N-Core DIY amp?

Yes... Merrill brought over his Veritas Monoblocks and compared them to Paul/Occam NC400. All present liked the Veritas over the NC400. A few degrees of refinement (plus warmer tonality) over the DIY offering.

[Barry (NJ)]

There are a number of comparisons in this thread...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106170.0


And right here too...

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=4182.0

[rollo]

Thanks guys. Still would like to hear one in my system. Some day.

charles

[ua100k]

Thanks guys. Still would like to hear one in my system. Some day.

charles

The offer was made to you and duly rejected.

The Arions and VERITAS were compared. Present was Mike K - builder of the Arions. As were a few more. Results were conclusive. Do check with Mike K.

[rollo]

Thanks guys. Still would like to hear one in my system. Some day.

charles

The offer was made to you and duly rejected.

The Arions and VERITAS were compared. Present was Mike K - builder of the Arions. As were a few more. Results were conclusive. Do check with Mike K.

  It appears someone is in attack mode. Finally heard them on extremely revealing speakers however not my system which matters the most to me.
   Accurate, detailed, dynamic however overall  no meat on the bone so to speak. The toe was not tapping. 
    BTW bringing Mike K. into this is just not cool. Why would you put a competing manf. on the spot ?
   All I ever wanted to find out is how a hybrid class"D" amp compared to a non hybrid. It is NOT a competition from my end.


charles

[Barry (NJ)]

Charles, I'm not taking sides, and we all know which product you sell, but who is attacking what? A neutral party made a suggestion, and you turn their SN into a poke at them, and discredit their suggestion as a poor product...  

  Thanks we can bring amps as well. Putzasourus, Merrills no thank you, not into thin , dry and lean and over detailed. BTW the GTA are very efficient and can be driver very nicely with 18W/ch. That's why I thought the Lamp Amps would work really well. Did not want to rain on Lamp, however amps can be brought.
  Either 18WSET or 500W hybrid class "D", oh my !! Thanks again Shadowlight, will coordinate with Greg. We will here them right this time, especially with Lamp front end, can't wait.

charles

[machinehead]

I think you really have to try the amps in multiple systems... Those Merrils sounded phenomenal with the Dutch megabuck uber sleek speaker majigs. Im not sure you can make a definitive conclusion