Cartridge suggestions to go with a Soundsmith MMP3 Phono Stage

[richidoo]

Mike, toobluvr, others:

Can you describe what are the sonic differences between good MM and MC. I know it is lower moving mass, so I expect in general, better transient response, more detail, etc. What makes MC good?
Thanks

[StereoNut]

The blackbird might be a little too bright. Dynavector would be a better choice, but HO vs LO is a big sonic difference, the lower the better.  HO MC vs MM is kinda close, but low output MC vs MM is a big difference.

At least you moved on from Grado...that would be a mistake,especially with such a great sounding arm like the 3d printed arm. If you do choose the Grado stick with the cheaper arm.

Opinionated?  yes...but I am speaking honestly and with some experience

Mike, opinions are what I'm here for... and I know you're not afraid to tell it like it is!  I decided that I didn't want to deal with the 60Hz (?) hum that so many people have warned me about with the Grados.  The output on the HO version of the Dynavector is 2.8mV.  Kind of "mid-high", not "high high".

As far as the arm goes, the biggest reason that I'm so excited about buying the VPI Prime (aside from buying a new TT after all these years with the Linn) is the 3D arm.  When the 3D arm was first introduced, the arm WAND alone was selling for almost 2/3'rds of what the complete VPI Prime turntable is selling for WITH the complete 3D tonearm!  This is a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned!

SN

[rollo]

  Bill when we had the VPI meeting and heard the demo of the arm the designer used a Grado.
   The advantage of a LOMC is the openness and 3D sound stage. The top end has more decay of notes with all the harmonics recorded. Inner detail is more noticeable without hype.
    When the stick hits the cymbal you will hear the metallic hit then the shimmer until it fades out naturally.
    Basically just more control and natural presentation. With the 3D arm it would be a pitty to put a cheap cart. on
    The biggest issue with LOMC is cost of entry. A phono stage with SUT is required. That in itself burns the bridge for most. Without the proper phono stage first the cart choice is moot.
   OK now the cart. When selecting the cart [ source] it is prudent to choose one that has a character you want. Meaning a rich sounding one , a bright one, a neutral one.
   How would you describe the sound of your system today ? I forgot as it has been awhile and you made changes.
    If it were me I would look for a used Klyne phono stage which has numerous loading and cart options. They are near perfect IMO. Should have NEVER sold mine. I think Micro Benz might be one to look at as well as Lyra.
   I know Rob Wyatt would help ya out big time with a recco. Great guy who knows his stuff.
   MM are known for their midrange and bass strengths. The top end slightly rolled off. Lacking the space and inner detail of MC. With the type of music you listen to the strength of a particular cart must be considered. If your a vocals guy MM, Rock guy MM, Classical guy MC, Jazz guy MM, Blues Guy MM. It appears to me MM is for you. A VG starting point actually.
   MC cart can be tizzy on top and lean. The expense of a highly rated MC will break the bank. Unless you can play in that arena start small.
   Have fun.


charles

   

[richidoo]

That's an awesome explanation, Charles! Thanks a lot.

[tmazz]

  Bill when we had the VPI meeting and heard the demo of the arm the designer used a Grado.
 

And it wasn't even one of the wood body Grados, it was one of the lower level ones. I questioned Harry about why he chose that particular cartridge for the demo of such a high end arm. He explained that while there were many cartridges that he would have preferred over that Grado, the higher quality cartridges also exhibit a good amount of variation from piece to piece. While this may not be a bad thing if you are just buying one to listen to, the purpose of the demo he was doing was  to swap between the regular arm and the 3D printed one. In order to isolate the changes in SQ to just those related to the arm he chose the Grado because although they were not as high quality in and of themselves they did provide a very consistent performance for sample to sample. Thus in this case the cartridge was not chosen because it was the best match for the arm, but rather because it was the best pick for the particular demo that Harry was trying to do at the time.

And by the way, I do have to say that when he switch from the standard to the 3D arm and played the same record again, the difference in SQ was immediately noticeable and quite impressive.

[StereoNut]

As always, thanks for your insights, Charles.  I unfortunately, didn't make the VPI road trip, so your comments are appreciated.  Tom's post immediately after yours definitely explains things more in context regarding the demo.

I don't know whether I am doing myself (and my system) a dis-service by not going in the LOMC direction or not, but I really don't want to complicate things with an SUT and another pair of I/C's or the hassle of buying a new phono pre-amp at this time.  I also want to scratch the MC itch, after spending the last 40 years with MM's to see (hear) what I've been missing.

Music choice is definitely a factor (I listen mostly to jazz, classic and prog. rock, vocals and blues) but I also feel that the bottom line with a cartridge is it's ability to retrieve what's in da grooves!  The better a cartridge can do that, it should make all genres of music sound better.  As far as "cheaping out" goes in choosing a cartridge that will do the 3D arm justice, I don't feel that any of the cartridges I've mentioned ($755.00 - $1199.00) are budget priced (at least for my wallet) nor are they considered entry level by any means.  Again, that's just my opinion.

Harry W. at VPI recco'd the Dynavector DV-20x2H as one of his two choices (the other being a Sumiko Blackbird) for a HOMC cartridge and quite a few others have seconded the choice of the Dynavector to me.  Unless there are an overwhelming number of responses that tell me from experience that the DV-20x2H is too "tizzy", "thin" or "hot" at the top end (which I don't want) I think that's where I'm going.

Besides, from what I understand... VPI used to demo and recco Dynavector cartridges almost exclusively until there was some sort of issue with the distribution chain a while back. (I don't know the full story and cannot personally verify the reason for the change, but I'm sure there are plenty of longtime VPI owners who can attest to VPI's use of Dynavectors in the not too distant past.) Currently, VPI seems to be recommending Ortofon's - but I don't want the 2M Black (it's MM) or the Quintet Black (LOMC) that they offer for reasons I've already explained.

If the DV-20x2H good enough for Harry, it's good enough for me!

Bill

[richidoo]

Maybe VPIs cart preferences change as the son takes over the company and has more say about recommendations and what's used in their product demos.

I like your process of analysis. Taking in advice, listening to mfg recco, then making your decision, in a way that thread followers can learn from. 

[toobluvr]

I really would not fret too much about missing out on a lot if you choose MM (or HO MC) over low output MC.  There are actually many folks who prefer the "high output / MM sound" over the "low output MC sound".  There's a HUGE thread on this topic, and the general worth (and even superiority?) of the MM sound, over on AG forums.

In general, I agree with how Charles kinda summarized the general diffs:  MM = full, warm, slammin dynamics, slightly (maybe?) soft / veiled on top;  MC = agile, fast, transparent, and sometimes (?) dryish / brittle / bright on top.  Of course we are speaking in generalities here, and exceptions exist.

I have only used a few MC in my rig. Have sampled more MM.  Based on this experience, and being well in tune w my own preferences / priorities,  I think I lean to the MM "sound".  Maybe I just haven't heard the "right" MC.  But based on my limited experience, I do kinda hear the generalized sonic profiles that Charles puts forward.

Despite being a MC, I don't hear the Dyna 20x as being "typically MC'ish", if you know what I mean.  If it did, I'd not like it.  I'll take warm, full, and perhaps slightly soft/rolled/veiled any day over lean, fast, dry, clinical and hyped.  20x sounds more MM'ish to me, and meshes better w my sonic priorities than the supposedly superior Dyna 17d2 mk2....which sounds more MC'ish to me, in that it is indeed just a bit faster and more nimble / incisive, but also not as full, weighty or slammin.

So you just gotta know where your priorities lie.  What sonic camp you are in.  While MC may offer slightly more inner detail and nuance than MM, if it also brings other nasties with it (or what I consider nasties), I'm not interested.

The MM (or HO MC) I have owned and liked do not sound detail-challenged in any significant way, or in any way that diminished my enjoyment.  They include Dyna 20x,  CA Virtuoso,  CA Maestro,  Cartridge Man Music Maker 3,  SAE 1000E.

My main point is, it's not a given that MC is always better, or that some sonic attribute is significant lacking with MM.   Some posts on discussions in this vein suggest that MC just absolutely dusts MM.   IMO, just not true at all.  Plenty of folks actually prefer the "MM sound".    The key is to just choose the one that meshes better with your sonic preferences / priorities.

[StereoNut]

Thanks, Richidoo!  

If it were something other than a cartridge, I'd just invite a baker's dozen of you audio looneys over with whatever piece of equipment it was (e.g.: pre-amp, amp, etc...) that you were using in your system(s) and audition them in mine, one by one.

A "swap until you drop" comparison meeting!

SN

[StereoNut]

I really would not fret too much about missing out on a lot if you choose MM (or HO MC) over low output MC. Despite being a MC, I don't hear the Dyna 20x as being "typically MC'ish", if you know what I mean.  If it did, I'd not like it.  I'll take warm, full, and perhaps slightly soft/rolled/veiled any day over lean, fast, dry, clinical and hyped.  20x sounds more MM'ish to me, and meshes better w my sonic priorities than the supposedly superior Dyna 17d2 mk2....which sounds more MC'ish to me, in that it is indeed just a bit faster and more nimble / incisive, but also not as full, weighty or slammin.

Well, John... I think your one long comment highlighted in blue above, sums it up best for me.  The Dynavector DV-20x2H sounds (pardon the pun) like it's the best of both worlds.  I'll get the faster, more nimble, detailed sound from the MC half of it's personality and the warm, full, slamming' part from it's MM half of it's personality!

PERFECT!!!

Thank you,
SN

[topround]

Also understand that people recommend what they sell.
Business relations are forged to help each other out, that being said I like the dynavector carts and you can usually get a great deal on them,  so shop around. Behind the hobby are business relationships that usually go undetected, recommendations are sometimes based around these relationships, OK more than sometimes

Also the Soundsmith cart that Joe has is also very good and sounds great with that Phono pre you have, so don't discount built in synergy, with the added benefit of saving money and removing doubt.

Good luck in your analogue journey, remember good vinyl is the secret to analogue success, that and a good setup. If your vinyl does not sound better than your digital, than something is wrong with your setup............

[rollo]

   Bill whatever you choose will be a whole new experience with the new TT.
   I use a HOMC made by Koetsou for Goldenote. Called the Boboli. Why a HOMC ? to better match the gain of my phono stage. Using the Linn Arkiv at .15mv required a step up. Another big expense for the right one. The miracle audio phono stage as well was a stretch as well.

I did not want to really change from the Loech either. What is missing in action between the LOMC and the HOMC is not much. I would say the imaging and sound stage are not the same. Decay of notes diminished as well. TRADEOFFS are part of our hobby.
    When I did try the right step up using the Arkiv no comparison to the HOMC. The step up was $1500, cart $2450 chit man that is getting crazy now. Plus cables power cords oh my !
    My  real issue all along was the preamp. Just did not want to part with it. Just to good overall. So drew a line in the sand about the Preamp.
    IMO the phono stage has more do do with sonics than the cart. Correct PS will make most cart sound VG. The wrong PS will limit sound.
    If it were me it would be PS first then cart consideration. but that is me.

charles
   
   

[StereoNut]

   Bill whatever you choose will be a whole new experience with the new TT.... IMO the phono stage has more do do with sonics than the cart. Correct PS will make most cart sound VG. The wrong PS will limit sound. If it were me it would be PS first then cart consideration. but that is me.

charles

(Note: edited for brevity. - SN)

Charles

I'm taking for granted (maybe a mistake to start with?) that a change from my 20+ year old Linn LP12 to the latest offering from VPI will make a drastic difference in my system.  The 3D tonearm alone, has to be a big jump up in performance, let alone a whole new table.

Same thing with the cartridge.  If I do buy the Dynavector DV-20x2H HOMC cartridge (which is what I will most likely do) it's gotta be a lot better than my current Linn Adikt MM that sold for half the price of the Dynavector on a price point basis alone.

Combine the improvements of both TT and cartridge together and I am expecting to be "wow'd" by the upgrade.   Hopefully, I'm not disappointed!

As far as the phono stage goes, I will stick with my Soundsmith MMP3 until I have $$$ to burn and a reason to upgrade it. Just look at the bright side... with the VPI Prime and Dynavector in place, the MMP3 phono stage will give me a new upgrade path eventually!

Bill

[toobluvr]

Hey Bill.....

Just posted.  Used 20x HO, low hrs, good price.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-dynavector-dv-20x-high-output-moving-coil-homc-cartridge-made-for-vpi-table-2015-01-24-analog-90066-los-angeles-ca

No affiliation with the seller, just a heads-up.

[StereoNut]

Hey Bill.....

Just posted.  Used 20x HO, low hrs, good price.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-dynavector-dv-20x-high-output-moving-coil-homc-cartridge-made-for-vpi-table-2015-01-24-analog-90066-los-angeles-ca

No affiliation with the seller, just a heads-up.

Thanks for the heads up.  I just messaged the guy.  I'm thinking this is the prior model before the 20x2H came out.

http://www.dynavector.com/products/cart/e_20x2.html

I'll keep you posted.
Bill