You know what grinds my gears?

[topround]

That sort of validates what I just said, you sort of proved my point.

So the price of the power cord was determined by the amount of money the buyer has. It was priced accordingly, since it was targeted to the person who has enough disposable income that the purchase makes sense, yet the manufacturer knows the less affluent cannot afford it.

We are talking power cords here, not Gulfstreams. Gulfstream knows NO middle class guy is buying their planes because they cost too much to make. The middle class guy is not even in the equation for that product.

So then the 4100 power cord is designed to be sold for the rich guy who has deep enough pockets.

Do you see my point, this may require a little deeper thought on your part to understand, but it is pretty simple.

The argument is not that the power cord costs 4100$, but why it costs that much! So, if the PC was designed to be priced at a point for wealthy consumers, because they have enough money to not care about spending that much, then it must follow that the cord may not really be worth (or cost) 4100 in the first place. They could make two identical cords charge 200 for one and 4100 for the other  right?

Also if the pc manufacturer makes a whole line of pc's at different price points, he may be selling lots of standard priced cords to the masses, and every once in a while sell a crazy priced one. The bulk of his business model is standard audiophiles, he is making enough money to pay the bills and make some money. every once in a while some guy buys his PC at a huge multiple, this is pure gravy at this point as he is not relying on the sale of the crazy priced one to keep the lights on.

Sounds like a good business model.

[topround]

Also when the guy who works at Walmart making minimun wage thinks we are crazy for spending 4100 on a PC, is he not right.?
Why do we look down our noses at him because he doesn't understand?
Is it because we think he is stupid and poor?
Those his lowly position(according to us) make his opinion any less valid.
If he made lots of money as an exec at Walmart would his opinion carry more weight.

Being devils advocate, because like an onion there are many layers here, the knee jerk first reactions usually carry no real mental weight. Dig deeper because there is a lot to this issue and it relates to alot of the insecurities of man.

Why does a person go out and buy a Bentley?
One could say that he wants the best, he loves the car, the way it looks and the way it drives. He can afford it so he buys it.
You know also that he buys the car to show it off, to let people know he is a success. There is nothing wrong with this, it is human nature, and human nature is not perfect. Dwell on this, because this reveals the true nature of our conversation here.

[StereoNut]

...it is human nature, and human nature is not perfect.

Very profound statement for an (ex-?)audiophile, Mike.    Love it!

SN

[machinehead]

Getting banned from AC is a total badge of honor. Mike is awesome. And when I say Mike I mean both of us

Frank Zappa rules!

[GT Audio Works]

$4k plus Power cords ?  
Hell I would not buy $40 ones...don't like em don't use em.
Good 'ol OEM works fine.
So many more effective ways to address the overall sound of a system.
This is the key to any system. Once you go down a road, say a power cord that produces a specific sound, everything that comes after is a direct result of the system interaction with that cord.
This can lead to a slippery and expensive slope.
Better to back up and think...what may be causing the the sound one feels the need to address by a cord or whatever perceived fix.
I will keep any further feeling on the subject for another post.

Change of subject you audio nuts.

Ya know what grinds my gears ??
LIARS !!!
Long story short, I ordered my firewood from a new guy this year, he gave me a good deal, but that good deal left me with some splinters you know where !!
Anyway...No natural gas up here, so oil is the norm.
I try not to turn on my oil boiler till it gets really cold out. Too expensive !!!
My wood stove does a great job, cozy warm and smells sooo good.

I make a deal on the phone for this guy to deliver 3 cords.
I was assured after much questioning on my part that the wood was dry, properly sized and clean.
I could not be here when he dropped it on my driveway...left him the $525 under a rock.

Well I come home to a pile of crap !!
Wet wood, waay too large cuts that will not fit in my stove and dirty like it had been buried in a mud pile.
I have since found out I was sold Sandy wood..as in "Hurricane Sandy"

I call this shyster back  and he gives me the tried and true response of  used car salesman who just sold you a clunker.

Well... maybe you left it out in the rain...No..I covered it the day you delivered it.
Well...its the cover, it keeps moisture in.
REALLY !!
At this point I know I have been duped.
He refuses to take it back.

Being the vindictive SOB I know I am
I call consumer affairs, not much action
Weights and measures...Bingo !!
Seems he shorted me..big no-no as far as weights and measures, besides being not what I ordered...and another no-no...he didn't leave me a receipt..a $500 fine to him !!  
I tried to contact him with this new found leverage to get him to relent.
Now use he refuses to answer my calls.
So it looks like I am filing an official complaint with NJ weights and measures.
The head dude there was very happy to help me, he says this is a big problem and he loves to sink his teeth into guys like this. He tells me these guys scam trusting little ol ladies and men all the time !!
Anyway the inspector is coming over next week to validate my claim, he says he will get a hefty fine and have to pay me restitution..doubt I will see a penny of that.
But if he does not, my other hole card it to narc on him to the IRS.
You know this guy is running a cash in pocket business, and is not reporting his fare share of income to our illustrious empire.

So a few lesson learned...
Trust is earned not a given.
Saving a bit of money in the guise of a good deal, usually ends up costing more in the long run.

So much for a short story...Sorry !

Greg

[GT Audio Works]

Getting banned from AC is a total badge of honor. Mike is awesome. And when I say Mike I mean both of us

Frank Zappa rules!

I got banned for a month..does that count ??

[machinehead]

Getting banned from AC is a total badge of honor. Mike is awesome. And when I say Mike I mean both of us

Frank Zappa rules!

I got banned for a month..does that count ??

Yes Yes it does! You are a true mensch! (manly man) grow a beard... run naked in the woods, foster sightings of the Sasquatch. Cuz you can... be one with the AC rebel within

[Werd]

Getting banned from AC is a total badge of honor. Mike is awesome. And when I say Mike I mean both of us

Frank Zappa rules!

I got banned for a month..does that count ??

Only once?. That's like being a beaver in the company of fully badged audio boys scouts. No Girl guides though  

I've been IP restricted at least 3 times and a couple just regular restrictions but I keep getting back. I think Johnr has crush on me. Must be  

[rollo]

    No Mike what the market will bare. Not how much money someone has.
   Why does there have to be a special reason to buy a Bentley ? Maybe the Guy just wants one. His Ego, His decision is nobodies business but His. Who are we to determine the reason. I do judge my fellow Man and neither should you or anyone else.
   Now if you want to get into a discussion on Human Nature that is another issue.
   I do not have to ponder or realize a dam thing. There is high end audio and there is audio. High end audio coined by Harry Pearson, rest his soul was designed around the concept of retail stores catering to the affluent and well heeled individuals. Period.
    Even a VG receiver is $4K these days. I will agree that some will use the high end to price their products higher and abuse the industry. They do not last long thank goodness.
   Audio 101 may still in play. take the guy who changes components like socks. He just does not get it. The proof of the pudding to me is what does his or Her system sound like.
   To date I have been to many homes and the sound just sucks To bright to lean no tone but loud and boomy bass oh my !
   Greg are becoming Frank Van Alstine ? Power cords make no difference ? I wonder why when you brought your speakers to my home your comment was always " why don't they sound like this at my home ? Why do you think that was ? We had great sound at CAF with TWL products. Are you saying now use generic as they are just as good ?
    Mike what grinds your gears is personal to you and I will NOT debate that. You can shop at Gucci or Khols there products and pricing for all.  
    Mike do you design Web Sites for free ? I want a free one.   Nothing is free.

PS Banned at AC for a year I got a silver medal, going for the gold soon.



charles

[machinehead]

We can put together a great site for your biz for $899
nearly free. squint and its free er er cuz its blurry.
http://www.mentalpixel.com/web-design-marketing-services-for-your-business/

[tmazz]

Also when the guy who works at Walmart making minimun wage thinks we are crazy for spending 4100 on a PC, is he not right.?
Why do we look down our noses at him because he doesn't understand?

Mike you are missing my point entirely. I am not saying at all that we should look down on the guy from WalMart or that he doesn't understand. Quite the opposite. A rich guy may think that $4100 is not a big deal to pay for a power cord if he thinks it will improve his enjoyment of the system in some way, We as middle class folks  may see the improvements that can be made by a cord, but are much more critical of the cost/benifit analysis because we have to alocate limited dicresionary dollars and the mimum wage worker thinks we are all nuts becuase with his low income he is just happy to have a music system, period.
And my point is that none of them are "wrong" each group makes decisions that are right for them givven their own personal circumstances. And just because their decisions don't agree with or even make sense to someone from one of the other gruops, tht doesn't make them any less reasonable to the person who made them.

And not surprisingly there are businesses out there that will try to make money by offering products that cater to the wants and needs of people in each group. That is why in this country you can by a ring at Tiffany's or the jewlery counter at Sears. And people can walk out of both sotores with a smile on their face just as happy with there purchase.

Now that said, I fully understand why you would think that paying $4100 for PC is a rediculous idea, because I wouldn't do it either. But that doesn't mean that  someone who wants and can afford one should be able to buy it ot that somebody who thinks thay can turn a buck buy making them shouldn't be able to give it a try.

[_Scotty_]

Screw $4100, I want the one that is 12 Grand and is about 10% better than the $1200 dollar one that I can't afford.
You have to have your priorities straight.
Scotty

[Triode Pete]

$4100 for a power cord, that's cheap! A mere bag of shells, Norton! 

PranaWire - Avatar II $16,950.00 ( 1 meter long)
Crystal Cable - CrystalPower Absolute Dream   $10,000.00
High Fidelity Cables CT-1 Ultimate Reference Rhodium Plus   $12,900.00
Elrod Power Systems   Diamond   $10,000.00
Purist Audio Design   25th Anniversary-Luminist   $9,900.00
Siltech Cables   Ruby Double Crown   $10,800.00

[GT Audio Works]

   
   Greg are becoming Frank Van Alstine ? Power cords make no difference ? I wonder why when you brought your speakers to my home your comment was always " why don't they sound like this at my home ? Why do you think that was ? We had great sound at CAF with TWL products. Are you saying now use generic as they are just as good ?
    Mike what grinds your gears is personal to you and I will NOT debate that. You can shop at Gucci or Khols there products and pricing for all.  
    Mike do you design Web Sites for free ? I want a free one.   Nothing is free.

PS Banned at AC for a year I got a silver medal, going for the gold soon.



charles

Charles,
I didn't say Pc's don't make a difference, they most certainly do.
I didn't elaborate my opinion, but since you challenged my statement I will.
Every power cord makes a change in the system. I dont care what Frank VanAlstine thinks.  I have come to this conclusion through my own in depth listening and trying to comprehend to whats really happening.
Lets face it, there are many feet of copper between the breaker box and the wall socket. How can a few feet of PC be anything but a filter?
This is ok..the whole audio chain is a filter  , weather its your cherished Deulands or spikes, vibration dampers, or Voodo rituals we engage in before a listening sessions.
It all makes a difference...I am not saying good or bad just different. The trick is to be able to sort out these differences and move in the direction we are looking to go.
Music playback is not a quest to come one specific correct answer like a math problem. Only make an enjoyable experience for us. This is done by whats called suspension of disbelief.
You don't watch a disaster flick and even on the widest and largest HT setup are you fooled into thinking its real, but you enjoy it just the same.
Maybe someday there will be a Holo deck like on Star Trek where ones perceptions will be difficult to separate reality from fantasy.
But for now, I am not fooled in the least, so the only thing we can do is enjoy what we got.

My experience with experimentation on the issue has led to the opinion, I don't like how PC's slow the dynamics and slightly blur the transients of the music.
So to me, investing a sizable amount of money into them is the wrong path on my road to audio happiness.
I feel there are too many out there that would believe just because someone says its so, and place their trust in these opinion this PC will be your answer to what you have been looking for. Especially if its very expensive. I applaud guys like Pete from TWL who make the search for audio nirvana a more sane and reasonable process.

When I had my speakers over your place,I did hear things I liked, but there were others I did not. I was not trying to BS you, as a matter of fact you may recall I wanted you to remove the power cords before Kadir came over for the audition, I liked the sound better without them, but its your system and I did not want to press the issue.
Every power cord I try I find a subtle to not subtle reduction in dynamics and speed and contrast, ditto for power conditioners.
Many if not most times I hear a more pleasant sound, but at penalty in sound somewhere else in the musical presentation.

Another reason for my statement about your system was the time and money invested in your setup was much more than my simple and inexpensive system at the time.
I was never an audiophile, I came to this hobby from a different mindset, to me the speaker could remedy all,  and like Julian Hirsch
I was of the opinion the rest of the chain was less important.
WRONG!!!
After learning that lesson, I was fortunate to run into a guy who makes gear I find fantastic. His new current offerings are out of my price range, but well worth it if I could afford it. But luckily I was able to grab some great deals on some of his older amps, cables, interconnects etc.
To be honest I didn't buy his PC's either. I thought his did the least amount of damage than any others I have heard.
I find his gear mates very well with my speakers , sans his cords, so why spend the money ?

Greg

[richidoo]

10,800? It's Siltech Ruby Double Crown Down   

I bet JPS Kaptovator is better than all of them for $1700!

But then, what is "Better?"  Rhymes with Reality and Truth.

If I like Rubies more than Diamonds then maybe I'll pick the Siltech over Elrod?  I could have Triode Labs cord for the difference between them, a mere pittance! 

It's like naming a stripper Candy, or Felicity. You know offstage she is like any other young woman, pros and cons, but you want to believe she is something more, and the label allows you to. Want is valuable to a seller. It hurts to want. People pay to get their itch scratched. There is more money in selling feelings than parts and machines. Those who have mastered the art of marketing give you much more for your money than just the thing. Value is intangible.