You know what grinds my gears?

[StereoNut]

I applaud guys like Pete from TWL who make the search for audio nirvana a more sane and reasonable process.
Greg

+ 1 Gazillion

SN

[topround]

People get banned from Audio Circle because they lied or told the truth

[topround]

Expensive life style products were designed and marketed by professionals, trying to design a product that people want to buy.

The people at Bentley had focus groups help determine what people want and like in their cars, in a way the car was designed to be desired by wealthy people even before it was built. this is what advertising people do, they make you desire a product, even if you didn't think you desired it.

Much money is invested in advertising and product placement to sell these high end products, of course no focus groups probably had a hand in designing audio gear, but the mentality is very similar.

Rich says value is intangible and he is right. how many products had there price tag decided before they even knew how much it cost to make.
Look at wine, how many 200 300 500 dollar bottles of wine actually cost that much to make. probably none, but a  status symbol gets involved and a artificial value is inserted into it.  I,ve had expensive wine that was great and expensive wine that was just OK, yet the perceived value is still connected no matter the quality, and that perceived quality was carefully tailored by the ad people.

I once had the opportunity to buy cables, pretty much any cable this dealer carried at 50 points off, some were 60 points and one cable was 70 points off, those were significant savings on new cables, and yet there was still room for profit.

Of course everyone has the right to buy whatever they want at any price they want, I am not saying they shouldn't, but when someone says a PC for 10,500 is worth it...well that should be qualified, because it ain't worth it, just that the buyer has enough money to not care.

Someone said that wealthy people buy expensive gear because they have a lot of money and are indifferent, perhaps, but I know several wealthy audiophiles that would never spend that much on a PC, and they could easily buy it.

So in some ways this wealthy audiophile is very like the lowly Walmart employee, who sees the expensive PC as a rip off, they both seem to share a similar common sense, despite their vast financial differences.
which makes me believe it has to do with insecurities.

[Werd]

   
   Greg are becoming Frank Van Alstine ? Power cords make no difference ? I wonder why when you brought your speakers to my home your comment was always " why don't they sound like this at my home ? Why do you think that was ? We had great sound at CAF with TWL products. Are you saying now use generic as they are just as good ?
    Mike what grinds your gears is personal to you and I will NOT debate that. You can shop at Gucci or Khols there products and pricing for all.  
    Mike do you design Web Sites for free ? I want a free one.   Nothing is free.

PS Banned at AC for a year I got a silver medal, going for the gold soon.



charles

Charles,
I didn't say Pc's don't make a difference, they most certainly do.
I didn't elaborate my opinion, but since you challenged my statement I will.
Every power cord makes a change in the system. I dont care what Frank VanAlstine thinks.  I have come to this conclusion through my own in depth listening and trying to comprehend to whats really happening.
Lets face it, there are many feet of copper between the breaker box and the wall socket. How can a few feet of PC be anything but a filter?
This is ok..the whole audio chain is a filter  , weather its your cherished Deulands or spikes, vibration dampers, or Voodo rituals we engage in before a listening sessions.
It all makes a difference...I am not saying good or bad just different. The trick is to be able to sort out these differences and move in the direction we are looking to go.
Music playback is not a quest to come one specific correct answer like a math problem. Only make an enjoyable experience for us. This is done by whats called suspension of disbelief.
You don't watch a disaster flick and even on the widest and largest HT setup are you fooled into thinking its real, but you enjoy it just the same.
Maybe someday there will be a Holo deck like on Star Trek where ones perceptions will be difficult to separate reality from fantasy.
But for now, I am not fooled in the least, so the only thing we can do is enjoy what we got.

My experience with experimentation on the issue has led to the opinion, I don't like how PC's slow the dynamics and slightly blur the transients of the music.
So to me, investing a sizable amount of money into them is the wrong path on my road to audio happiness.
I feel there are too many out there that would believe just because someone says its so, and place their trust in these opinion this PC will be your answer to what you have been looking for. Especially if its very expensive. I applaud guys like Pete from TWL who make the search for audio nirvana a more sane and reasonable process.

When I had my speakers over your place,I did hear things I liked, but there were others I did not. I was not trying to BS you, as a matter of fact you may recall I wanted you to remove the power cords before Kadir came over for the audition, I liked the sound better without them, but its your system and I did not want to press the issue.
Every power cord I try I find a subtle to not subtle reduction in dynamics and speed and contrast, ditto for power conditioners.
Many if not most times I hear a more pleasant sound, but at penalty in sound somewhere else in the musical presentation.

Another reason for my statement about your system was the time and money invested in your setup was much more than my simple and inexpensive system at the time.
I was never an audiophile, I came to this hobby from a different mindset, to me the speaker could remedy all,  and like Julian Hirsch
I was of the opinion the rest of the chain was less important.
WRONG!!!
After learning that lesson, I was fortunate to run into a guy who makes gear I find fantastic. His new current offerings are out of my price range, but well worth it if I could afford it. But luckily I was able to grab some great deals on some of his older amps, cables, interconnects etc.
To be honest I didn't buy his PC's either. I thought his did the least amount of damage than any others I have heard.
I find his gear mates very well with my speakers , sans his cords, so why spend the money ?

Greg

Good PCs lower your outlet impedance. All gear when working see the local transformer through Power cables first then outlets then fuse boxes before the local transformer. The whole "I can't see how a few feet of copper compared to the length of wire from the outlet  to the local transformer" doesn't  make sense electrically. The amp (for eg) here uses a 60 hertz cycle. Those are stops and starts. 60 times a second the amp will see the local transformer and current will flow. It can be thought of as not continuous. That is what baffles people. Your amp is under a set out time 60hz as to how often will work. That power cable makes it easier for the amp to see the local transformer. They are so important because your amps starts the cycle not the neighbourhood transformer. That is why lower impedance is important and the difference between generic and decent PCs.

That is all in my imo btw and how I look at electricity delivery into the house. But it sounds like you are bias towards power cables.

[Werd]

   Audio 101 may still in play. take the guy who changes components like socks. He just does not get it. The proof of the pudding to me is what does his or Her system sound like.
   To date I have been to many homes and the sound just sucks To bright to lean no tone but loud and boomy bass oh my !
   
PS Banned at AC for a year I got a silver medal, going for the gold soon.




charles

Charles you would love what I got cooking here.

I got beats cooking off every layer and beats in the air... Lol.
This system layers so good and all instruments layer as they come and go with a beat. It's not meshed at all. Even the air I got has beats. It fricken glorious.

[GT Audio Works]

   
   Greg are becoming Frank Van Alstine ? Power cords make no difference ? I wonder why when you brought your speakers to my home your comment was always " why don't they sound like this at my home ? Why do you think that was ? We had great sound at CAF with TWL products. Are you saying now use generic as they are just as good ?
    Mike what grinds your gears is personal to you and I will NOT debate that. You can shop at Gucci or Khols there products and pricing for all.  
    Mike do you design Web Sites for free ? I want a free one.   Nothing is free.

PS Banned at AC for a year I got a silver medal, going for the gold soon.



charles

Charles,
I didn't say Pc's don't make a difference, they most certainly do.
I didn't elaborate my opinion, but since you challenged my statement I will.
Every power cord makes a change in the system. I dont care what Frank VanAlstine thinks.  I have come to this conclusion through my own in depth listening and trying to comprehend to whats really happening.
Lets face it, there are many feet of copper between the breaker box and the wall socket. How can a few feet of PC be anything but a filter?
This is ok..the whole audio chain is a filter  , weather its your cherished Deulands or spikes, vibration dampers, or Voodo rituals we engage in before a listening sessions.
It all makes a difference...I am not saying good or bad just different. The trick is to be able to sort out these differences and move in the direction we are looking to go.
Music playback is not a quest to come one specific correct answer like a math problem. Only make an enjoyable experience for us. This is done by whats called suspension of disbelief.
You don't watch a disaster flick and even on the widest and largest HT setup are you fooled into thinking its real, but you enjoy it just the same.
Maybe someday there will be a Holo deck like on Star Trek where ones perceptions will be difficult to separate reality from fantasy.
But for now, I am not fooled in the least, so the only thing we can do is enjoy what we got.

My experience with experimentation on the issue has led to the opinion, I don't like how PC's slow the dynamics and slightly blur the transients of the music.
So to me, investing a sizable amount of money into them is the wrong path on my road to audio happiness.
I feel there are too many out there that would believe just because someone says its so, and place their trust in these opinion this PC will be your answer to what you have been looking for. Especially if its very expensive. I applaud guys like Pete from TWL who make the search for audio nirvana a more sane and reasonable process.

When I had my speakers over your place,I did hear things I liked, but there were others I did not. I was not trying to BS you, as a matter of fact you may recall I wanted you to remove the power cords before Kadir came over for the audition, I liked the sound better without them, but its your system and I did not want to press the issue.
Every power cord I try I find a subtle to not subtle reduction in dynamics and speed and contrast, ditto for power conditioners.
Many if not most times I hear a more pleasant sound, but at penalty in sound somewhere else in the musical presentation.

Another reason for my statement about your system was the time and money invested in your setup was much more than my simple and inexpensive system at the time.
I was never an audiophile, I came to this hobby from a different mindset, to me the speaker could remedy all,  and like Julian Hirsch
I was of the opinion the rest of the chain was less important.
WRONG!!!
After learning that lesson, I was fortunate to run into a guy who makes gear I find fantastic. His new current offerings are out of my price range, but well worth it if I could afford it. But luckily I was able to grab some great deals on some of his older amps, cables, interconnects etc.
To be honest I didn't buy his PC's either. I thought his did the least amount of damage than any others I have heard.
I find his gear mates very well with my speakers , sans his cords, so why spend the money ?

Greg

Good PCs lower your outlet impedance. All gear when working see the local transformer through Power cables first then outlets then fuse boxes before the local transformer. The whole "I can't see how a few feet of copper compared to the length of wire from the outlet  to the local transformer" doesn't  make sense electrically. The amp (for eg) here uses a 60 hertz cycle. Those are stops and starts. 60 times a second the amp will see the local transformer and current will flow. It can be thought of as not continuous. That is what baffles people. Your amp is under a set out time 60hz as to how often will work. That power cable makes it easier for the amp to see the local transformer. They are so important because your amps starts the cycle not the neighbourhood transformer. That is why lower impedance is important and the difference between generic and decent PCs.

That is all in my imo btw and how I look at electricity delivery into the house. But it sounds like you are bias towards power cables.

Werd,
I am not biased against aftermarket PC's or any other high end component. I am willing to try anything in my system and evaluate it with complete fairness., even a Tice clock if you happen to have one. It would be counterproductive to be biased towards anything that may make an improvement in my system.
Its just that every cord I have tried did not totally improve the sound of my system. It gave me something I liked but took something away.
In other words it was no better just different. So why shell out big bucks for something that to my ears didn't make a definite improvement. Who knows, maybe I just have not found the right cord yet.

I appreciate the technical explanation, but I see no correlation between
what is technical and what is perceived by our senses.
I don't care how my amp sees my transformer on the pole. I only care the vibes hitting my ears and body and being transformed into electro chemical candy my brain likes.
Maybe what makes you happy when you listen to your system is that you are secure in the fact your power cords are in intimate contact with your wall outlets for the lowest impedance. And somehow this makes your listening experience more enjoyable.
So Be it !!
Different strokes for different folks, just as long as we are enjoying it.
Greg

[GT Audio Works]

Charles,
If you or anyone else for that matter, wants to do a little experiment regarding the issue of debate.
I invite you over, armed with your best selection of PC's in hand, to compare against my lowly OEM plain Jane black toss away cords.
PLEASE...Prove me wrong, there is always room for improvement in any system and mine is no exception.
Greg

[richidoo]

Upgrade PC benefit are most noticeable when used on power amplifiers with relatively small power transformers, like tube amps.

[GT Audio Works]

Upgrade PC benefit are most noticeable when used on power amplifiers with relatively small power transformers, like tube amps.

Then bring 2, I have mono blocks

[tmazz]

Charles,
If you or anyone else for that matter, wants to do a little experiment regarding the issue of debate.
I invite you over, armed with your best selection of PC's in hand, to compare against my lowly OEM plain Jane black toss away cords.
PLEASE...Prove me wrong, there is always room for improvement in any system and mine is no exception.
Greg

Greg that is the perfect attitude. Just give it a try and see what happens.

The way I evaluate any system change is this. First listen to the new piece. If I don't like the way it sounds , game over. If I do like it the next step is to decide how much of a change does it make and is that amount of change worth the money I would need to lay out to keep that piece in my system in terms of a) the absolute amount (If I can't afford the price, it is a nice experiment, but I can't buy it anyway ow matter how good it sounds) and b) what else could I do with that amount of money else where in the system that would give me that much, or more improvement. If I the piece under study puts a bigger smile on my face than anything else I could do for the money I buy it, if not I don't . Plain and simple.

BTW - I was thinking, you say that don't like how PC's slow the dynamics and slightly blur the transients of the music. I think a lot of that may have to do with your speakers. You have planar drivers that really excel at reproducing transients and dynamics. So perhaps you are able to hear things that those of us that are using different speakers don't. If that is the case those of us who have systems that don't reproduce transients like yours do would hear the same benefits that you hear with the PCs but would not hear the dynamic slowing because they never had the kind of speed that you are not willing to give up in the first place Like every thing else, uit is not what is the best, but what works the best with the rest of your system, in your room, (given your musical preferences.)

[_Scotty_]

This may not make any sense, but I call them as I see them. I have had the biggest changes and improvements from switching power cords on front end components. The magnitude of the improvement has been much greater than that heard by putting a different power cord on an amp. This was the reason why I put Waveform Fidelity power cords on the entire front end. One on the Dac was big and subsequent additions to the pre-amp and power filter feeding the front end were additive if not multiplicative in nature.
I would be trying different cords on the front end first and then the power amps.
Scotty

[tmazz]

Expensive life style products were designed and marketed by professionals, trying to design a product that people want to buy.

The people at Bentley had focus groups help determine what people want and like in their cars, in a way the car was designed to be desired by wealthy people even before it was built. this is what advertising people do, they make you desire a product, even if you didn't think you desired it.

Much money is invested in advertising and product placement to sell these high end products, of course no focus groups probably had a hand in designing audio gear, but the mentality is very similar.

Rich says value is intangible and he is right. how many products had there price tag decided before they even knew how much it cost to make.
Look at wine, how many 200 300 500 dollar bottles of wine actually cost that much to make. probably none, but a  status symbol gets involved and a artificial value is inserted into it.  I,ve had expensive wine that was great and expensive wine that was just OK, yet the perceived value is still connected no matter the quality, and that perceived quality was carefully tailored by the ad people.

I once had the opportunity to buy cables, pretty much any cable this dealer carried at 50 points off, some were 60 points and one cable was 70 points off, those were significant savings on new cables, and yet there was still room for profit.

Of course everyone has the right to buy whatever they want at any price they want, I am not saying they shouldn't, but when someone says a PC for 10,500 is worth it...well that should be qualified, because it ain't worth it, just that the buyer has enough money to not care.

Someone said that wealthy people buy expensive gear because they have a lot of money and are indifferent, perhaps, but I know several wealthy audiophiles that would never spend that much on a PC, and they could easily buy it.

So in some ways this wealthy audiophile is very like the lowly Walmart employee, who sees the expensive PC as a rip off, they both seem to share a similar common sense, despite their vast financial differences.
which makes me believe it has to do with insecurities.

Mike, you are complaining about products that are designed to appeal to a certain group of people  in an effort to make them want something and cite Bently as an example. Well that is not exclusive to products targeted at the wealthy, but applies to products across the board. Is a $250 pair of Air Jordans really that much functionally different from pair of $20 sneakers from Payless shoes? And yet what percentage of Air Jordans are sold to people living at or blow the poverty line? Selling you stuff you never thought you needed is the entire basis of the fashion and cosmetics industries. My grandmother bought a dress fifty years ago and she wore it until it fell apart. Now Madision Ave tell women that they need to buy a whole new wardrobe every time the seasons change. God forbid you should ever wear something from last years lines.

What you are complaining about is the very basis of a free market economy. Businesses exist for the sole purpose of selling you there product so they can make money. Period.  And the design products to sell to particular groups of people and price them at a point that gives them the highest profit that the market will allow them to get away with. The exist for their own benefit, not for the benefit of their customers or the greater good of society That's just the way it is. You can't fight city hall.

And BTW, there is a name of an economic system where firms and industries exist no for themselves, but rather to serve the greater good, it's called Socialism. And look around at the rest of the world and recent history because while it may sound like a good and noble idea on paper, it never seems to work out to well in practice. And please do not take any offense, I am in no way trying to make a political statement nor accuse you of being a socialist, I am just talking about economic systems from a theoretical and practical point of view)

[Werd]

This may not make any sense, but I call them as I see them. I have had the biggest changes and improvements from switching power cords on front end components. The magnitude of the improvement has been much greater than that heard by putting a different power cord on an amp. This was the reason why I put Waveform Fidelity power cords on the entire front end. One on the Dac was big and subsequent additions to the pre-amp and power filter feeding the front end were additive if not multiplicative in nature.
I would be trying different cords on the front end first and then the power amps.
Scotty

I agree, you get the right front end with the right PC and its a go. I am using a Harmonix X-DC into my BDA2 and it's a marriage made in heaven. I would like to try TWL digital baby.

[GT Audio Works]

Charles,
If you or anyone else for that matter, wants to do a little experiment regarding the issue of debate.
I invite you over, armed with your best selection of PC's in hand, to compare against my lowly OEM plain Jane black toss away cords.
PLEASE...Prove me wrong, there is always room for improvement in any system and mine is no exception.
Greg

Greg that is the perfect attitude. Just give it a try and see what happens.

The way I evaluate any system change is this. First listen to the new piece. If I don't like the way it sounds , game over. If I do like it the next step is to decide how much of a change does it make and is that amount of change worth the money I would need to lay out to keep that piece in my system in terms of a) the absolute amount (If I can't afford the price, it is a nice experiment, but I can't buy it anyway ow matter how good it sounds) and b) what else could I do with that amount of money else where in the system that would give me that much, or more improvement. If I the piece under study puts a bigger smile on my face than anything else I could do for the money I buy it, if not I don't . Plain and simple.

BTW - I was thinking, you say that don't like how PC's slow the dynamics and slightly blur the transients of the music. I think a lot of that may have to do with your speakers. You have planar drivers that really excel at reproducing transients and dynamics. So perhaps you are able to hear things that those of us that are using different speakers don't. If that is the case those of us who have systems that don't reproduce transients like yours do would hear the same benefits that you hear with the PCs but would not hear the dynamic slowing because they never had the kind of speed that you are not willing to give up in the first place Like every thing else, uit is not what is the best, but what works the best with the rest of your system, in your room, (given your musical preferences.)

Im with you on your philosophy tmazz,
I also find you really have to live with a piece for a while. The brain is very easy to fool. At first blush it may sound just wonderful, but after living with it awhile the warts come out. I have noticed this on my quest for a PC
Who knows maybe its me ? We all have priorities in audio, some place soundstage above else, some could care less.
Maybe I have a thing for dynamics and speed. I did design my speaker to excel at this.
I think your on to something.
Greg

[tmazz]

I think your on to something.
Greg

My mother killed all the dumb ones.