You know what grinds my gears?

[GT Audio Works]

I think your on to something.
Greg

My mother killed all the dumb ones. 

I think that's evolution's job.
Though from the state of the world, I think mother nature has been slacking.

[Response Audio]

This may not make any sense, but I call them as I see them. I have had the biggest changes and improvements from switching power cords on front end components. The magnitude of the improvement has been much greater than that heard by putting a different power cord on an amp. This was the reason why I put Waveform Fidelity power cords on the entire front end. One on the Dac was big and subsequent additions to the pre-amp and power filter feeding the front end were additive if not multiplicative in nature. 
 I would be trying different cords on the front end first and then the power amps.
 Scotty

I have to agree with this as well. Since designing preamps for almost 20 years, I have found that power cords do make the most difference here. Preamps and other front end components are the most sensitive pieces in a system. Especially digital front end pieces. Not to say you have to spend a boatload on a PC but the right PC can make the difference. I think when evaluating a new preamp or front end piece, at least give it the benefit of the doubt and use a decent PC. You owe it to the component and yourself to allow the piece to show you what it has to offer.
That's my 2 cents for the day.

[topround]

I am not complaining how the economic system works, I was just trying to explain why it is the way it is.
This all started with why a reference to a 4100 dollar power cord and sorted of started a complaining about lots of high prices for audio gear.

Socialist me?....no 
Republican.....no
Democrat....no

Like an AA meeting it is good to talk about these things get them out in the open.
Socratic method works every time. Debate, debate, debate, from the debate will come the truth..


and we are page 9!   Woo Hoo

Lets start something new to bitch about, how about we all bitch about how much of a trouble maker I am, and yes I too wear my ban from audio circle as a badge of honor.

Remember you only get banned from audiocircle if you tell the truth or lie.
or piss off one of the fan boys of their manufacturers that pay to be on the site. No negative press will be tolerated from their advertisers.
and if everything has purpose, then the purpose of audiocircle is to make money. But enough of that nonsense....dude where'd I park my Bentley?

9 pages!!!!!!!!!

[mfsoa]

In reply to the general theme of the thread, sort of, maybe-

My brother has worked in audio for decades and has owned B&M stores for a long time. His take is that the industry itself has done a poor job marketing Quality - Of making the average joe feel that having quality music in their home is something desirable and something enviable.  (Broader issues of poor musical education etc. are a separate discussion)

His example - He visits a home for a site survey. Two sweet Benzes in the driveway. Two doctors. These people would never even consider an Accord, Maxima etc.. Would be mortified to have their neighbors think that they drove anything less than a $50K plus euro sedan. No doubt BMW and Benz (insert Rolex etc. here) have done a great job in creating a sense of desirability for their product.

So why do these doctors think absolutely nothing about have an elegant dinner party and playing music through a $200 Sansui rack system?

How much more could the industry have done to create a sense of I Want That for the non-audiophile. Much like the economic discussions here, the middle class (meaning people who could be the bread and butter consumers of audio) isn't interested, forcing the mfrs to race for the stratosphere in an ever-shrinking market.

And with the trouble B&Ms are in the opportunities are less and less by the day I fear.

-Mike

[_Scotty_]

I think some of the problem is that a Porsche Carrera sitting in your driveway is self explanatory, an audio system that costs the same, not so much. In fact, only other audiophiles that may enter your home for dinner and drinks are even going to "get it".
It's only a status badge to people in the know and there are fewer of them everyday.
Scotty

[Werd]

No one taking a bus or driving a beater will complain that a Porsche ain't worth it.  But a clown with computer music through desktop speakers will claim that $10k for a source piece is a rip off. They read the garbage that has been handed to them and they don't stop to think. The biggest poison in this hobby comes from the audio manufacturers. Typically speakers (and I do not mean GT audio either) they like to bag out on other system gear. There is vicious amount of abuse amongst manufacturers towards other piece manufactures. Like speaker companies like to bag out on source gear and cabling. Amp manufacturers like to bag out on cabling. . Cabling is like the red headed step son of audio gear. Everyone takes them out back for a shit kicking.

It's all this "you are getting ripped off" negativity (by manufacturers) that has led audio into the state it is in.

[Werd]

Worst I have seen is Salk and AvA. Those guys will derail the hobby to ensure an environment where they can up-sell. The idea is have the buyer move more of their audio budget into one piece...theirs. Cabling, source gear cuts into the person's speaker or amp budgets. That is all it is. Nothing more than up selling. "Hey forget the cabling and source. You can save money and buy these more expensive speakers, bits are bits and cabling doesn't do anything"

Then you got the brainless reader who trusts these idiots and away they go to tell every one they know cabling is a "rip off". I've already told Bryston's new digital guy "Chris" to put a lid on it about digital. But they want to clown up and can't stop. They just can't help themselves.

[StereoNut]

...Like every thing else, it is not what is the best, but what works the best with the rest of your system, in your room, (given your musical preferences.)

You're forcing me to say the "S" word again, Tom.

SYNERGY

My 2¢
SN

[tmazz]

Like an AA meeting it is good to talk about these things get them out in the open.

Yeah, Audiophiles Anonymous. Same kind of 12 step program, except in this group with each step you get in deeper. 

[GT Audio Works]

Worst I have seen is Salk and AvA. Those guys will derail the hobby to ensure an environment where they can up-sell. The idea is have the buyer move more of their audio budget into one piece...theirs. Cabling, source gear cuts into the person's speaker or amp budgets. That is all it is. Nothing more than up selling. "Hey forget the cabling and source. You can save money and buy these more expensive speakers, bits are bits and cabling doesn't do anything"

Then you got the brainless reader who trusts these idiots and away they go to tell every one they know cabling is a "rip off". I've already told Bryston's new digital guy "Chris" to put a lid on it about digital. But they want to clown up and can't stop. They just can't help themselves.

I had to consult the urban dictionary...Bagging out...Australian slang meaning 'make fun of' or 'insult'. Other variations: bag(s) out, bagged out.

I don't read the rags at all, or any forums, present company excluded, so I guess I am not up on whats being said out there regarding manufacturers bagging each other out.
I used to participate in AC, but the leadership there kinda put my nose outta joint.

But "bagging out" other manufacturers to take a bigger chunk of a customers budget makes little sense, but it doesn't surprise me.
Say a person, on the advice of a speaker manuf blows his entire budget on a set of speakers, its not going to take him long to realize his Sony receiver with included throw away rca interconnect and zip wire does not sound like he expected.
Upon hearing this the buyer is going to come to one of two possible conclusions.
One, He was lied to regarding ancillary equipment at which point you lost a customer for life and he will be sure to tell everyone about it.
Two...he is naive enough to believe the sellers BS and can only come to the conclusion the speakers are nowhere as good as advertised.
Either way the speaker manuf is out of the picture.
MAYBE THIS IS WHY THIS HOBBY IS IN THE STATE ITS IN.
Lincoln's quote "a house divided against itself cannot stand" comes to mind.

I get this question of what gear(mostly amps)will work with my speakers.
Unfortunately its a rarity someone comes to me with clean sheet of paper to build a system, usually they are hoping their amp they already own will work. If its a 20 watt tube amp, I say sure it will work, it may sound very nice, but 90 db and 4 ohms can only take you so far. You will not be using the speakers to their full potential. If you listen to baroque, folk or small jazz ensembles at lower levels fine, but if your an orchestral or rock music lover you will be disappointed.
I tell em what I have personally heard that I thought worked well.
Then my caveat to them is the speaker amp interface is very critical to ultimate system performance.
Beg borrow or steal what you can to audition for yourself.
Don't go off on the advice of a reviewer or peer and sink big bucks into an unheard piece
Its your money, have fun, tread carefully !!

Greg

[Werd]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

Over on AC there are people (years we are talking) that are using  speakers disproportionate to their remaining gear. There is no coming to the realization of it and they are happy to tell everyone. That is because they READ it daily about the negativity of other gear. None of them listen to their own gear. Largely because they have a pile of shit that sounds like garbage. But they have no problem online bagging - out about the non - neccessity (lack of quality) of audio gear. This all stems from the manufacturers (who crap on other gear) only to get a larger piece of the buyers purchasing budget.  

[mfsoa]

Greg you forgot Possible Conclusion #3 due to overestimating the common sense of the Fanboy (he he we get say Fanboy) mentality, where regardless of the resulting SQ, it simply cannot be admitted that speaker S or electronics A sound anything other "worth twice the price of any other component ever made" because well, everyone on the forum thinks so.

[Response Audio]

I have to disagree with the bagging part of this conversation. What I mean by that is I don't feel its a way to upsell.
I have always found that being honest with customers about their system is the best way to keep customers coming back. Working WITH other manufacturers creates a path for consumers to get the best out of their system.
There have been many times when a customer has asked me if one of my products would be a good match in their system and there have been times when I would have to honestly tell them no. In this case, I would recommend another amplifier, preamp or whatever component(s) they were inquiring about. This startles people at first but then they come to realize there are still people in this industry that still have a passion for what they do.
There have also been several occasions when asked if "these components will work together" when I had to simply say......."I really don't know enough abut product X to give an honest opinion".

When you are honest with your customers and pass on a sale because you know its not right for them, they almost always return to you later when they DO have a need for one of your products.

Lying to a consumer just to move a product will come back to bite you in the ass. You do it enough times and consumers begin to not trust you.

I know my products don't fit the needs of everyone. No manufacturer has the one-size-fits-all product. I think manufacturers should work together to help consumers put together a system with the proper synergy to make beautiful music and keep them happy for years to come.

[GT Audio Works]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

Over on AC there are people (years we are talking) that are using  speakers disproportionate to their remaining gear. There is no coming to the realization of it and they are happy to tell everyone. That is because they READ it daily about the negativity of other gear. None of them listen to their own gear. Largely because they have a pile of shit that sounds like garbage. But they have no problem online bagging - out about the non - neccessity (lack of quality) of audio gear. This all stems from the manufacturers (who crap on other gear) only to get a larger piece of the buyers purchasing budget.  

Your right I may have bagged , politely or not it was not my intention.
It was only in the context of the $4200 power cable discussion.
To express my belief that people are too happy to throw money at a problem in their system ie. an expensive power cable to remedy an issue they should be looking elsewhere to fix. Unfortunately there are plenty of folks out there that are glad to feed on their fears.

Of course no matter how I say it, as a competing manufacturer, it may be construed as bagging.
Maybe that issue is a speaker that no matter how much high end gear you put behind it cant resolve the signal the system provides to the fullest. So no matter how great those power cables or interconnects are... the speakers lack of coherency in the transition from bass to lower mid range is the result. I am a firm believer the speaker will yield the biggest change in any system.

I am not trying to blow my own horn,  but I will not deny that I have had more than one customer use a highly regarded name brand speaker that when replaced with mine, we had to go back and start over with everything upstream, removing all the tweaks and mods and such, because the system had wavered so far off course trying to please the old speaker. Then his face lights up with the knowledge he is hearing things like never before. I am not saying these tweaks will not give an overall improvement, just if the speaker cant do it with the basics, it does not have much chance making things better with tweaks.

Greg

[GT Audio Works]

Greg you forgot Possible Conclusion #3 due to overestimating the common sense of the Fanboy (he he we get say Fanboy) mentality, where regardless of the resulting SQ, it simply cannot be admitted that speaker S or electronics A sound anything other "worth twice the price of any other component ever made" because well, everyone on the forum thinks so.

Glad you said it.