Humility

[richidoo]

It is always great to hear a system that is so far beyond your own that it inspires new determination and refocusing on the right direction. Thinking about preamps all week, I thought I would try the Manley Shrimp again, so I dropped by my friend the Manley dealer and listened to Quad 2805/Shrimp/Snappers with DHLabs cables and Cayin CDplayer. Pretty good but not tear jerker. (I later heard the shrimp again at home, that (with EH 12AT7 gain tubes) was the bottleneck on the dealers' demo.) Nice tone from the Quads.

But on the way home, I decided to drop in on the fancy schmancy audio store and listen to the new Wilson WATT Puppy 8 speakers and my fav preamp of all, AR Ref 3. AR CD-7 player, Ayre MX-R amps and Transparent cables.  Yup, it's good. Very very good. Beryllium tweeters are not my fav, nor SS amp, and big wide mid bass bump in the room, but listening through all that was easy because the juicy goodness was so obvious. I listened uninterrupted for 2 hours, amazed, enraptured.

Effortless power, unlimited detail, Gigantic soundstage width and depth, Perfect tone and microdynamics except on bass drum (acoustics) and tippity top of violins (berryllium). I left determined to own a system like that asap. Last time I heard it with WP7, and Ref110 tube amp, I was blown away. Not quite as emotionally powerful experience this time without the tube amp, but still technically awesome. I guess the tube amp is close to a retube and they wanna dump it with the old tubes so it is on time rations now. Only the "real" customers can play it. hahaha

After driving home and thinking about the prospect of owning a $100k system and a proper room to put it in (new custom built house) I turned on my system and listened for a while. Good but not even close. In some ways a little better, maybe because I'm used to it, but in most ways, I have a long way to go. Actually the long way to go is not very far, but the last 10% is the hardest to achieve and costs 10x more than the first 90%.    This experience makes me wonder why hearing music cleanly must be so expensive? Last time I heard this system I was intent on working towards it. This time, I enjoyed it, but decided no matter how good it sounds, I would rather have something else than such a super music machine. Am I coming over the crest of my audio desires? starting to mellow out, accept what I have and know it is good enough for me? The preamps have made a wonderful difference, I can sit and enjoy the music so much easier now. Not listening as intently as before - don't have to. Just absorbing it easily.
Thanks
Rich

[Carlman]

Someone probably really dialed-in that system and you got to hear it at its best.  That's a great experience.  If you go back in a few weeks, it'll be all different and the experience won't be there.  So, glad you got to really soak it in.

I've heard systems that inspired me to build something great... and price always limited my options... I didn't let the 100,k price tags get in the way... I just figured I could get close for a lot less... The hifi stores tend to cater to people who want to impress others instead of those that strive for that emotional attachment to the performance.  But it sounds like you got a chance to sit down at a place that might consider both.  Was this Audio Advice by any chance?  I haven't been in there for a while.

Anyway, glad you got to hear something you bonded with... Hopefully you learned a few things about your tastes and can apply that to 'reasonably priced' items that get you to Nirvana for less...

-C

[richidoo]

Placement of speakers was incredibly wide and very close to walls, but it worked exceptionally well. I was surprised at first and had to close my eyes to get past that. Imaging filled in fine, even with super wide angle. I attributed that to the incredible precision of the amps, timing was good enough to spread the speakers far apart and imaging remained solid.

Satisfaction playing at very low levels was not great, maybe due to the always a little weird WP bass. I found the volume setting to be fussy, but once right setting was found, it really jumped to life. Really loud was not needed, but right setting was needed. My system sounds good at lowest possible setting for late night listening.

Previously, some return trips to hear this rig (at Audio Advice ) were less impressive (I was told) due to sharing the space with other demo systems which required moving the WP aside and ruining the exact placement. It sounds silly to me, since replacing them on the tape marks should be good enough, but what do I know? I was glad to hear the most of the original joy returned again with the new speakers. I didn't want to think it was a one time fluke.

I think this equipment provides a truly superior technical performance to anything I have heard before. I do question its value on my own personal scale. I could have a recent 911 and a 6 month tour of the country for same contribution. Which would I enjoy more? I dunno. I could have an old rusty 911 with what I have in stereo now, but I don't. I sometimes question the relative value of my own existing system, remembering how satisfied I was listening to music on far lesser systems when I didn't know any better. Distortion, like ignorance can be a wonderful, happy thing. Too late now!! hahaha

[rollo]

A diminishing return so to speak. The more expensive equipment gets that extra  10% as you say, but is it worth it. That is the million dollar question. It boils down to economics. 
     The Audiophile who can afford the ultra system will spend the extra cash most of the times . For the average guy well its dream city. My Honda V6 performs very close to a Porsche with some after market options. However it still is not a Porsche. Close, real close just not as refined.
      Do we really need to spend 100K on a system to attain the emotional impact of the Music? IMO no we do not  Like the auto comparison I get the rush of going around that corner or barreling down that straightaway, but in the end its no Porsche. That little extra still takes the cake. Is the difference in price worth it? Not to me but to someone who could easily afford the Porsche its no problem. I say God blesss them. We should not put down the expensive stuff we cannot afford, just because we cannot afford it. We see this all to many times." Did you see that amp it sells for $75,000 "  "yeah its not worth the money" Well if we could afford it without blinking an eye then its worth it to someone.
     Can it be done for less? Absolutely! This is where the synergy thing copmes in. I'll put a Rotel or Parasound Receiver, Cambridge CDP with B&W 802 speakers and Supra wiring up against the big boys anytime. You will get that emotional impact from that Receiver based system, just not that last 10%. Now is that Mega system worth the extra dough? Not for me. Is it 20X better than the inexpensive system, as the price difference indicates? No, but it is better overall.
     So, humility no reality yes. As a matter of fact my buddy has a system consisting of a a Carey CDP, Sonic Frontiers SFL Sing. preamp an Anthem amp, Snell E5 speakers [ great speaker ], MIT speaker cables and Di Marzio IC's that will make you get up and dance and sing a few bars. This system boogies and will provide all that emotional gestahlt you will need.  He is a musician with a great ear for tonality and harmonic structure. The SYNERGY of this system is the key, certainly not the cost. I believe his investment was less than $4000 as he bought them used.
    Keep on trucking men, its possible to get that sound for less, allot less. You just gotta know , what sounds good with what. Not so easy. Experience and time will allow you to make these decisions. So let the chase continue. When you get the right system synergy you'll know.
     So , don't feel humiliation, just keep on trying and you will get there. Oh Yes you will.


  rollo 

[richidoo]

Thanks rollo. That's humility as in humble, not humiliation. I'm not quite to that point, yet. hehe

[Carlman]

One thing I've noticed in this hobby... Is along the lines of the value equation of gear...
Seems there is some self-righteousness about people who buy gear cheap and 'would never buy that expensive audio jewelry'... It's like reverse snobbery to me. I was incited a bit by a post over on AC discussing it... The old 'cable doesn't matter' debate... From what I gathered in that thread, cable does matter, but only if you obsessively experiment to find the cheapest solution.... I think.. Maybe this should be a new post... but I figured I should bury it a little... I don't want to cause a war here, either... I just thought it was appropriate to bring up because I wanted to make sure no one thought I was trying to say anything like that.  I hope people feel free to do whatever they want with their money.
-C

[jrebman]

Rich,

I had a similar experience a few weeks ago when auditioning the Audio Note speakers and amp I was considering.  My friends, Mike and Neli (Audio Federation) have te gear to die for, and I can go up there and listen pretty much anytime I want to, and to all sorts of combinations of very cool things.

The room I initially listened to the AN-es in was somewhat acoustically challenged, and they had just bundled up a pair of AN SEC Signatures to ship to their new home, so I asked if we could come back in a few days and hear the E's in their main room as it was wider and more open, and much moer like the room we would be listening in, and because the stands for the E's were still in position and a set of Valhalla speaker cables in place.  The amp was the legendary Audio Note On-Gaku integrated -- 25 watts of unbelievable 211 power, the sources an Audio Aero Prestige, and the Meittner stack connected via Indra Stealth, I believe.

Despite all that, the E's only sounded so-so to my ears -- nice, and different from my Adagios, but not as sophisticated or transparent, and nowhere the bottom or top end of the Adagios...  Ok then, that part of the demo was over.

Now, connect the Kharma Mini-Exquisites to the same source and amp, with the same speaker cables and...

I'll get to that, but first let me say that I generally don't care for bass reflex cabinets, ceramic drivers, or diamond tweeters -- they all produce nasties that grate on me after a while.

So, now it was time to throw all those prejudices out the door because what I heard was absolutely the most incredible sound I've ever heard come out of a system of any kind, at any price.  Yes, half an hour before I was downstairs listening to the Marten Supremes ($250k) which did do the best piano I've ever heard, btw, and did far more of everything than the Minis, but the Minis just sucked me in.  These speakers were absolutely and perfectly transparent and clean -- virtually perfect except that they don't have that last word in bass -- but plenty good enough.  The thing that really got me was that they vanished completely in the room and just left me surrounded in acoustic loveliness.  I can only imagine that the Midi Exquisites (75k) will do all that and real, punch you in the chest bass (and those may be at RMAF)

So, naturally I started thinking how in the world I could come up with the bucks for a system like that, but quickly realized that it would never work in my house, and for that kind of money I could pay off my mortgage and still have enough for a superb system.

All that said, I'm actually very happy the way things are going here with  my new setup, and it's only going to get better, and do so easily within my means.  I know it will never be the On-Gaku Mini Exquisite experience, but it's the best I've ever had and I am finally enjoying listening to what I have.

Good topic!

-- Jim

[Bigfish8]

One thing I've noticed in this hobby... Is along the lines of the value equation of gear...
Seems there is some self-righteousness about people who buy gear cheap and 'would never buy that expensive audio jewelry'... It's like reverse snobbery to me. I was incited a bit by a post over on AC discussing it... The old 'cable doesn't matter' debate... From what I gathered in that thread, cable does matter, but only if you obsessively experiment to find the cheapest solution.... I think.. Maybe this should be a new post... but I figured I should bury it a little... I don't want to cause a war here, either... I just thought it was appropriate to bring up because I wanted to make sure no one thought I was trying to say anything like that.  I hope people feel free to do whatever they want with their money.
-C

Thanks Carl:

Certain threads have a way of making the hair stand-up on the back of my neck.  I don't like to defend how I spend my money and I don't like to see other people's choices being challenged.  They made their choices and spent their money!  This hobby (and it is a hobby) is 100% about choices (seperates, integrated, receiver, speakers, music source(s), ICs, PCs and room treatments) and I think everyone in the hobby wants to build the best sounding system their budget will allow.  To me a 2 channel system is like buying a car.  With a car you are buying transportation and the range of transportation options go from very basic to ulta expensive.  A person's choice of transportation really reflects their personal choices and their budget.  With a 2 channel system you are buying something to play music.  The choices are incredible and run the gamit in price range from inexpensive to ultra expensive.  Again, it is about personal choices and a person's budget.  

I have used AN as a tremendous source of information about this hobby and am so appreciative for the help I have received.  

Thanks Again,

Ken  

[WEEZ]

Picking up on Carl's post; I think there is plenty of "self-righteousness" from folks on both ends of the cost/price spectrum.

On the one hand; there's the "My speakers cost $75k and they are the best. You fools with $4k speakers are dregs". On the other hand; there's the "My DIY triple twisted magnet wire cables will beat your $2k XYZ cables in a double blind test, by god".

Like with most anything, 'value' and 'truth' is found somewhere in the middle of the two extreemes.

Ahh, but there's always that 'nervosa'. Will I like it? Will the guys on the forums like it? Did I make the right choice? Are my tubes too smooth? So and so said these cables are best; so he must be right, right?

I've found that when you hear 'it', you generally know 'it'. Until the next time........

WEEZ

[richidoo]

Nice WEEZ! I love that!! 

I was originally thinking about being humbled by the performance of the super system, not as much about the cost, but in the end, the reason I don't just take it home is the cost. I think it's worth the money, but not in my current situation. If I had the money and hifi was that important to me, then yes it would be worth it. Hifi is not as important as other things in relation to my overall income. So income and personal priorities figure into the valuation too. Somebody must be using such systems near here or else the dealer wouldn't stock the products for so many years, so I just need to make the right friends! ANyone is welcome to come listen at my house anytime, so I hope the local Wilson/AR owners are the same hahaha

Now, connect the Kharma Mini-Exquisites to the same source and amp, with the same speaker cables and...   I'll get to that, but first

Cruel!!!  hahaa

Jim, your listening experience and emotional response and financial analysis sounds similar to mine.   In the end, it is humbling to hear such a great performance, and to come away knowing I'm in just the right place now for budget, performance and satisfaction. I love knowing there is stuff out there in the world for me to aspire to. By the time such toys would fit into my life I may be interested in completely different things.

I heard the Kharmas last year at RMAF, but didn't understand what I was hearing, so I only noticed no bass and I just split. I'm looking fwd to be in a better understanding of what goes into the gear to better apreciate it this year. Some of the really weird stuff is expensive and first listen of a neophyte usually won't "get it." I'll be even more humbled if I'm lucky!
Rich

[jrebman]

Rich,

You'll have to go listen to the Cogent field-coil speakers (if they will be there this year).  That's a completely safe thing to do because there isn't a wife in the world that would allow those in the house.

The visit to the Kharma room this year will only to have another glimpse of what's possible, and that's abut it.  I definitely want to see (or hear) that Serious Stereo stuff too -- now that seems possibly potentially doable in the longer term.

As you say, I'm rather comfortable with where things are headed with my own system now, and it will take one amazingly outrageous piece of gear at a give-away price to get me to change my mind on anything now.

One sure sign of how good I'm feeling about my system is that nowadays I'm at least reading the Elusive Disc and Acoustic Sounds emails all the way through -- and even bought a couple (several, in fact) LPs in recent weeks (including that Fagan-Becker blessed 30th anniversay issue of "Aja", which has been on my desert island list since it came out.)

Nowadays I'm saying to myself -- so much music, not enough money.

-- Jim

[Bigfish8]

Rich,


Nowadays I'm saying to myself -- so much music, not enough money.

-- Jim

Jim:

You have precisely expressed my situation! 

While I still can't see the end (of spending) in site I see it at a more managable pace because I had to start from zero.  I now have to upgrade power supply for S3 and attack room treatments!

Ken

[Carlman]

Picking up on Carl's post; I think there is plenty of "self-righteousness" from folks on both ends of the cost/price spectrum.

On the one hand; there's the "My speakers cost $75k and they are the best. You fools with $4k speakers are dregs". On the other hand; there's the "My DIY triple twisted magnet wire cables will beat your $2k XYZ cables in a double blind test, by god".

Like with most anything, 'value' and 'truth' is found somewhere in the middle of the two extreemes.

Ahh, but there's always that 'nervosa'. Will I like it? Will the guys on the forums like it? Did I make the right choice? Are my tubes too smooth? So and so said these cables are best; so he must be right, right?

I've found that when you hear 'it', you generally know 'it'. Until the next time........

WEEZ

Excellent points, WEEZ.. I didn't really think about the other side of the spectrum... But I think it's because I expect people to brag about their mega-$ systems... I would.  Hell, I do.  But I realy like it!   It's sometimes tough to discern the difference between someone who's truly proud of what they've built and someone really just trying to show off... Just depends on how well you know them... A good lesson for me to keep an open mind.

I couldn't agree more with the 'you hear it, you know it' comment... Man, that's so true.  And the higher my system gets, the less moments like that I have... So, the become that much more impressive as time goes on.

Thanks for the balanced and insightful comments, everyone.

-Carl

[Hantra]

I heard that system a month or two ago, but it was with the WP7's.  They didn't have the 8's. 

BTW, they don't use Beryllium.  That's an inverted titanium composite dome.

I think the true star of that system is the Ayre amplifier.  I've heard everything else in there before in different setups (except for those lame Transparent cables).  Those Ayre amps have a beautiful sound.  They don't seem to get upset by complex music, and they really do make rough recordings sound musical and listenable, without glossing over anything.  I'd love to hear those against the McIntosh 501, or 1201.  Those two boys are among the finest I have heard, and I wonder if this Ayre may be a step beyond, and closer to the Halcro.  I really think those are the first Ayre amps I have heard that I liked, and didn't have an overly on stage, in the artists mouth presence. 

Nevertheless, it's always nice to hear different systems, and see where you want to take your own. 

[richidoo]

BTW, they don't use Beryllium.  That's an inverted titanium composite dome.

Thanks Brandon, it sounded very good, but not glistening clear and crystaline, which is reserved for ribbon tweaters, IME.

I think the true star of that system is the Ayre amplifier. 

You might be right. It is hard for me to know what piece is doing what. I wish they still had the AR 110 tube amp running. It was just stunning, made the music come alive and talk directly to you, yes you. I'm talking to you, yeah, you in the audition seat. Listen up, this is special performance just for you. Having that feeling of immediacy and direct connection to the artist and the "great music creator" was overwhelming the first time I heard it in 2005 with WP7. It made me decide to pursue this hobby to get some of that in my own house in my own small way. Then I went back a couple weeks later with my wife, and it sounded dead and uninvolving, like elvis on AM radio. Good but you wouldn't buy it. Now it's technically as good as before. Tone is pure, details maybe more accurate, but the firey breath of God wasn't felt. I can see why reviewers are so smitten with this AR Reference series.