Speaker Cost vs Bass Performance

[topround]

I agree there is a lot of info down there, but what percentage of commercially available speakers actually go down that far with meaningful spls?
How many of us audiophiles out there have speakers that go down to 20 hz? Realistic 20 hz not just 20 hz down 20 dbs so it looks good on paper.
How many people whose speakers do not go down that low realistically, enjoy their speakers?
I would imagine most if not all.

I enjoy my crappy car radio, and that is missing so much from everywhere , top bottom and sides!

I think the main problem with going down that low is size, you need large drivers and hence a large cabinet, of course if gets a bit more expensive to manufacture and ship larger speakers, but the most restrictive part I believe is most people can't, or won.t, use a giant speaker in their house.

[Nick B]

I agree there is a lot of info down there, but what percentage of commercially available speakers actually go down that far with meaningful spls?
How many of us audiophiles out there have speakers that go down to 20 hz? Realistic 20 hz not just 20 hz down 20 dbs so it looks good on paper.
How many people whose speakers do not go down that low realistically, enjoy their speakers?
I would imagine most if not all.

I enjoy my crappy car radio, and that is missing so much from everywhere , top bottom and sides!

I think the main problem with going down that low is size, you need large drivers and hence a large cabinet, of course if gets a bit more expensive to manufacture and ship larger speakers, but the most restrictive part I believe is most people can't, or won.t, use a giant speaker in their house.

Well, no problem with your opinion, but the original post didn't start out this way. I do enjoy my favorite tunes even on the crappiest of boom boxes. Part of the joy of audio ..for me at least ....is to appreciate that others have the space, means and money to own things that I can't afford or don't even necessarily want. This discussion has given me a different perspective and maybe at some point I'll try a sub and see if it brings me more musical enjoyment.
Nick

[topround]

Well the original posts asks how much do you think you should spend to go down to 20hz?
any cheap sub will go down to 20hz..
for Wilson audio speakers you may have to spend $40,000 to get to 20hz.
Legacy maybe $15,000, every speaker maker has their own price points

The question of how much audio gear costs is kind of taboo around here so I think the thread drifted to a more innocent and more interesting aspect of bass performance.
Great bass performance doesn't have to be expensive the big 15 inch drivers are not really that expensive, high end tweeters cost much more, but great bass does take a lot of room to make, no getting around that..

Audio Note makes a two way speaker for S275K with an 8 inch woofer, so there you go!

[Hugh]

The way I interpreted Charles' post is that his expectation is for a pair of speakers should go down to 20Hz once they passed the $5K mark.

My original reaction/thought was, and I admitted I misread somehow, he expected to get 20Hz at $5K and thus my question.

I could be wrong though.

[Nick B]

Agree. That's how it started out.  It's not my strength to stay on topic sometimes. I tend to drift a bit, but that can lead into more interesting conversations. As I said, I've gotten a different perspective on bass reproduction and appreciate that.  I also wanted to keep a positive tone on the posts.

The subject of mentioning the cost of gear isn't a problem for me at all. I just looked at a video of the Living Voice system. $2,000,000 and eight sold. Works for me if you can afford it.

[richidoo]

Yes achieving bass performance does require some payment to the gods. Nothing is free in life. Big dreams are worth fighting for. Stop dreaming and you are the walking dead.

My proposed great bass solution would cost $2000 diy, $5000 bought and give sota bass performance. So no govt price controls needed. If you dream of Alexandria's then get them, but your bass will not be better than my head sub. Of course there are many fine reasons to buy Alexandrias or AudioNotes and to believe their bass is the best possible. We create our own dreams and live in them.

Price, size, who cares about that? Surely, not audiophiles. We don't care about those things. Of course it's the WAF, as usual. 
Top tip: The man causes the WAF problems. We can learn a lot about WAF from shek's male lions.

Every man needs a cedar tree and at least 2 18" subs to be happy.

[topround]

Well,
knowing the original poster personally I imagine the thread was going to drift to the fact that he is thinking of buying a speaker that goes down to 20hz. That is all well and good, but these tangents do tend to become more interesting when they drift.

First time I heard open baffle bass was in RMAF in 2007, Nelson Pass had built these OB subs in plywood, just hanging in the wind, and they sounded great...fast, clean,effortless, no box boom like a home theatre sub, much more musical, such deftness, like a real acoustic bass, like the bass came out of the f holes in the double bass, very very musical.

I remeber the first time I heard the IRS system at Bill Legalls house, completely rebuilt by him, I walked into this big room and saw these monster speakers surrounded by huge woofer panels, when he turned it on I thought I would be pushed against the back walls, all those woofers so imposing!!, But what I felt was the opposite, such a huge open delicate sound, so effortless, not like a nightclub at all, but like live music.
Rich is right you need big woofers and lots of them makes it better, but not how you would expect , not like a row of Marshall stacks, but they deliver such delicateness that is truly special. Extreme clean , fresh extended bass, super fast and lively, and so very natural sounding.

just my opinion all colored up and sticky

mike

[topround]

big bass


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o36Kp6veJ6c

[tmazz]

The vast majority of people out there  have very little, if any source material that goes down below 30 Hz and even if they did do not have a room that would support it. but from a marketing perspective it is damn near impossible to sell a "full range" speaker that does not at least on paper, under some test conditions, measure well down to 20 hz.

Whether or not they will ever use that full bottom octave is immaterial. But have the theoretical ability to do so seems to be a psychological barrier for many audiophiles.

[topround]

Much agreed
audiophiles do tend to be number weenies, and 20 hz is certainly a bragging right even if they never really heard it in their room!

[steve]

  At what price level does one expect 20HZ bass response done right meaning -3db point at 17HZ.  For me after the 5K region I want 20HZ bass. AT 15hz, 34mm.


charles

That is going to be tough as huge cone excursion comes into play, depending upon driver diameter and spl.

For my test speaker, I decided to use a 12" with -3db at 30hz, but at 19-20hz is -13db, in two 4.5 ft3 cabinets. Even then, cone excursion is the limiting factor at 30hz.

Here is a link to calculate excursion. With a 12" woofer, at 40hz, 100db spl, about 4.8mm excursion. All being the same except 20hz, the excursion is near 19mm, 3/4".

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html

Cheers and hope this helps.

Steve

[HAL]

I like multiple 12" servo drivers in an OB H-Frame.  The two 6x12's here do very well with pipe organ music.  You can feel the infrasonics on some recordings.

Have not tried the 2x12's OB servos yet but they should do nicely as the tuned at 22Hz with the Linkwitz transform. 

[steve]

I like multiple 12" servo drivers in an OB H-Frame.  The two 6x12's here do very well with pipe organ music.  You can feel the infrasonics on some recordings.

Have not tried the 2x12's OB servos yet but they should do nicely as the tuned at 22Hz with the Linkwitz transform.

Are you saying you are using two groups of 6 drivers, all 6 are 12" in diameter?

Cheers and thanks.

steve

[HAL]

Yes, two 6x12" H-frame OB servo sub towers. 

[steve]

Yes, two 6x12" H-frame OB servo sub towers.

So 12 total drivers, each 12" dia. Wow, that should do the job.

Cheers