Surface Noise Origins

James Edward · February 19, 2020, 01:31:56 PM

Anyone care to take a stab at what causes surface noise on LP's? Do you feel you can visually assess whether a record will be noisy or not?
Possible causes:

A lot of play
Dirty, from paper record liner dust
Dirty, from dirty fingers
Dirty, from airborne dust
Scratches- these should be easiest to detect, but not fix
Smoking environment
Pet hair
Do some styli accentuate noise- if so, what styli types attenuate said noise...

I ask this because a new Nervosa of buying used records has reared its ugly head. I'm going to add to this but I'm afraid my post will time out before I submit it.

James Edward · February 19, 2020, 01:39:19 PM

I just picked up a couple of Pablo label jazz records on recommendation of a fellow member. They appeared super clean; no scuffing, scratches, or even dust on the surface. I put one on, and the noise was very apparent. The music above(below?) the noise sounds magnificent. Transients are sharp, instruments sound great, etc., etc.
So I cleaned the record with an old tried and true method- new sponge, tepid water, and some Dawn.
Surface noise still there, though the music seems slightly 'brighter', so it's something other than dirt, dust, or other physical matter.

James Edward · February 19, 2020, 02:16:12 PM

As I think, I could perpetuate this thread all by myself... I guess static electricity could play a part too. Along with quality of the vinyl used- some of these records may have been doomed from the start. A horrible thought, but maybe.
I just put on another record I bought yesterday, and the background is much quieter. Not perfect, but it was 99 cents.
It looks to have been pressed in 1963, by Atlantic Records.

S Clark · February 19, 2020, 03:11:52 PM

Pablo pressings are usually pretty quiet. Most were pressed after the horrible recycled vinyl years of the 70's, so I suspect they are just dirty. Now your old Atlantic pressing from 1963 is likely to be mono, and if so, was cut to be played with a mono cartridge. Mono is much quieter when played with the correct cart.
So the first question, how are you cleaning your records? Sponge and soapy tap water? If so, that's the first issue. You won't get much out of the groove with a sponge, and if you aren't using distilled or de-ionized are likely adding minerals.
Is the Atlantic mono? If you can't see "stereo" stated, it probably is.
It's possible that the records are just worn out. It happens, not often, but it can be exactly what you're describing.

Folsom · February 19, 2020, 03:31:39 PM

Has your cart and VTA been setup? The wrong setup on that stuff will make noise much worse.

Nick B · February 19, 2020, 06:23:05 PM

Quote from: James Edward on February 19, 2020, 02:16:12 PM
As I think, I could perpetuate this thread all by myself... I guess static electricity could play a part too. Along with quality of the vinyl used- some of these records may have been doomed from the start. A horrible thought, but maybe.
I just put on another record I bought yesterday, and the background is much quieter. Not perfect, but it was 99 cents.
It looks to have been pressed in 1963, by Atlantic Records.

Jim,
As Scott mentioned, I don't believe the sponge method would get much dirt out of those grooves. Maybe a magic eraser sponge or a microfiber cloth might. That would be an interesting experiment. I've read a number of reviews over the years that discussed the relationship between noise and stylus shape.
Nick

S Clark · February 19, 2020, 08:08:22 PM

Ticks and pops caused me to be an early adopter of cd's in the early '80s, but when I picked up a cheapy KAB vacuum cleaner, I swung back to vinyl. And when I built an ultra sonic cleaner, I really began to hear what records could do.
The answer is get a cleaning system. It's going to cost anywhere from $150 to $500 bucks to do it well, but it's the real way to improve your vinyl experience.
If you aren't handy enough to build your own, then I can't recommend enough one of the ultrasonic units that Rollo sells. They are truly the ultimate in getting records as noiseless as possible.

James Edward · February 20, 2020, 07:52:07 AM

I am trying one more thing, as the suggestions make sense.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-Flat-Chip-Brush-1500-4/202023923
It should get into the grooves, and the bristles are on the soft side. Worth a shot...

rollo · February 20, 2020, 08:50:40 AM

Jim welcome to the world of vinyl. If you desire to buy used instead of new you will need a LP cleaning machine. I reco the Kirmuss Ultra Sonic cleaner.
Even some new LPs require a cleaning. At $30 to $40 a pop should not be however is. As Folsom mentioned VTA and setup can exaggerate noise issues.
Pete or Joe in our club have the proper tools.

charles

rollo · February 20, 2020, 08:55:06 AM

Quote from: James Edward on February 20, 2020, 07:52:07 AM
I am trying one more thing, as the suggestions make sense.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-Flat-Chip-Brush-1500-4/202023923
It should get into the grooves, and the bristles are on the soft side. Worth a shot...

Jim, just buy the Mapleshade brush with ground. A killer product. I believe $35

charles

James Edward · February 20, 2020, 09:12:18 AM

I was trying that 4" brush to wet clean the records. I'll check out the Mapleshade. Thanks CR

jimbones · February 20, 2020, 09:13:10 AM

Lot of great suggestions. I used to have a decent amount of surface noise but then when I got a new cartridge with a different shape stylus the noise level went way down. Mazz installed and aligned the cartridge and Triode Pete brought his Fozgometer and Bob M brought some beer

I try to stay away from used records. I believe in quality not quantity and clean clean clean. I built a DIY LP cleaner and gets them squeaky clean. Now its like playing digital in terms of noise level.

jimbones · February 20, 2020, 09:14:03 AM

Quote from: James Edward on February 20, 2020, 07:52:07 AM
I am trying one more thing, as the suggestions make sense.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-Flat-Chip-Brush-1500-4/202023923
It should get into the grooves, and the bristles are on the soft side. Worth a shot...

NG. When you come over to my place I'll show you the brush to get

James Edward · February 20, 2020, 09:47:57 AM

Just so I'm not shunned or excommunicated

, and don't want to be known as the Typhoid Tony of records

, I started this topic to get a little insight into surface noise, and ways to possibly visually detect it before the purchase of used records. The records I have bought up until this fateful day were new and sound just fine... I have always taken very good care of them.
I guess I overreacted because my first three used were noisy. They looked fine to the naked eye, but who knows what lurks beneath the surface.
In reality, I don't have the space or inclination to be rounding up records, so I'll most likely be giving Acoustic Sounds or whoever some business.

Barry (NJ) · February 20, 2020, 10:10:07 AM

As stated above, "proper" cleaning, and arm/cartridge set-up, makes a world of difference.