Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done

[malloy]

I got it totally backward. I thought the @ disc was the treated disc! I preferred the @ disc to the # disc. Less hi-fi sounding is the reason. Is it an indictment of my antiquated stereo or hearing or both ?!! 

I found the vocals on the @ more processed.

This was consistent. I have yet to listen to the CDR - the postman just found it after spending a week in a neighbor's mailbox!

I liked the sound of the 'wrong' CDR disc that Dave sent though.

Paul

[Nick B]

I got it totally backward. I thought the @ disc was the treated disc! I preferred the @ disc to the # disc. Less hi-fi sounding is the reason. Is it an indictment of my antiquated stereo or hearing or both ?!! 

I found the vocals on the @ more processed.

This was consistent. I have yet to listen to the CDR - the postman just found it after spending a week in a neighbor's mailbox!

I liked the sound of the 'wrong' CDR disc that Dave sent though.

Paul

Hey Paul,
Seems this might be more an indication of the age of your CD player than your ears and those of your wife, who's a trained singer if I recall correctly. Waiting for your thoughts on that CDR. As to the postal service, my neighbor recently brought me some of my mail that he had received. Unfortunately, it was a bill rather than a tweaked CDR
Nick

[malloy]

Hi Nick,

Ughh. I hate bills. As for the wife, yes, she consistently picked the untreated disc.

Now for my litany of excuses: 

Listening conditions were not ideal here when I listened - that was the week when we had 100 degree temps and we were listening in the garage (where she lets me keep my junk...er gear) in sweltering heat and when the house and the whole neighborhood were blasting their ACs. It was also the week I was still probably breaking in the long Oyaide cable. Also hadn't turned on nor listened to the CD player in 6 months, etc. etc.

Well maybe this is the prefect excuse i can use so I can buy new gear.  :rofl:I'll tell the wife, "Well, the cd player is just not up to snuff!"  and I need a power conditioner!

As for the post office, they actually called me up and emailed to make sure I got the package. That was surprising!

Paul

[P.I.]

There are no "right" or "wrong" answers in this little shell game we played.  All it really does is demonstrate that "bits is bits" is a pile of crap.  The fact that "perfect sound forever" can be manipulated by processes that the expurtz will tell us, with a great deal of self-righteous sanctimony, will have absolutely no effects on a digital format is telling.  De-magging and cryoing had obvious audible effects on the # disc.  Some preferred it, others did not.  That fact is irrelevant for several reasons.  1:  personal preference - 2:  system dependency (especially the DAC) - 3: ripping and burning software - 4: hard drive type - 5: drive controller  - 6: phase of the moon...  These things are most of, but not all of the mitigating factors that influenced the outcome.

Certainly the cryogenic and demag results are explainable:

Inks are magnetic.  It doesn't take much energy to nudge a photon.

Cryo increases optical clarity.  Sandra National Labs utilizes one of the worlds highest resolution optical microscope that has cryo treated and cooled lenses.

FWIW - my digital playback system:  2012 Core i7 Mac mini; dB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC (massively modified); 1TB Samsung 970EVO SSD; P.I. FireWire 800 cable; OWC Mercury Elite Pro drive enclosure w/WD 6TB 3.5" drive; TWL/P.I. Split Power cable; P.I. MPC mini++ power cable; mass loading; isolation; jumbo jumbo and black candles ... sounds very good to ME and Gayle.  That is all that matters    Hell, I'm 72 with many firearms in my past (mostly using hearing protection), so there ya' go!

There's more, but it is late and I'm tired.

[Barry (NJ)]

I got it totally backward. I thought the @ disc was the treated disc! I preferred the @ disc to the # disc. Less hi-fi sounding is the reason. Is it an indictment of my antiquated stereo or hearing or both ?!! 

Paul

Hi Paul, you're not alone, I too thought the @ disc was the treated disc. Not sure which I "preferred", but as Dave says, it's not what we preferred but that differences were heard, where some would say there shouldn't be any.

Dave, Thanks again for making this happen!

P.S. I'm curious as to just Cryo vs. just De-Mag treatment, instead of both(?)

[dflee]

Man did I go overboard.
Wrote my findings to Dave.
Thanks for letting me be a part and for letting me know
the Furotec demagger isn't strong enough to do the trick.

Don

[Barry (NJ)]

Man did I go overboard.
Wrote my findings to Dave.
Thanks for letting me be a part and for letting me know
the Furotec demagger isn't strong enough to do the trick.

Don

Don, like you, I'd originally sent my thoughts to Dave, but after it was over I just copied and pasted them here from my message. You can do the same, I'd love to read what your thoughts were.

[P.I.]

I got it totally backward. I thought the @ disc was the treated disc! I preferred the @ disc to the # disc. Less hi-fi sounding is the reason. Is it an indictment of my antiquated stereo or hearing or both ?!! 

Paul

Hi Paul, you're not alone, I too thought the @ disc was the treated disc. Not sure which I "preferred", but as Dave says, it's not what we preferred but that differences were heard, where some would say there shouldn't be any.

Dave, Thanks again for making this happen!

P.S. I'm curious as to just Cryo vs. just De-Mag treatment, instead of both(?)

Cryo alone is discernible, but does not have the depth that the cryo + demag does ON MY SYSTEM.  It really is system/preference dependent.  Same with damaging. 

I remember the first disc I did the demag treatment to: Bonnie Raitt "Streetlights".  I was doing some work at a local studio and the owner and I were using that disc as some background music as we did some maintenance.  He had the bulk tape eraser out and I told him that I had read where demagging a CD produced an audible change.  He said "I don't believe that", so we decided to give it a try.  DAC was an Apogee AD-8000 which was pretty much SOTA for that time (1999).  We listened to "What Is Success", demagged the disc, and listened again.  All of the settings on the gear was untouched per good A/B practice.  After about 5 seconds he looked at me and said: "What the **** just happened?"  He became a true believer and from that day on every disc that left that studio was treated, sometimes twice - before and after the burn.  That was the day he nicknamed me 'the audio esoterrorist'.

[malloy]

The fact that "perfect sound forever" can be manipulated by processes that the expurtz will tell us, with a great deal of self-righteous sanctimony, will have absolutely no effects on a digital format is telling. 

This cannot be stressed enough. And weren't cd players themselves supposed to sound the same regardless of price once upon a time (and apparently, this still holds true in some forums to this day! )?

[P.I.]

The fact that "perfect sound forever" can be manipulated by processes that the expurtz will tell us, with a great deal of self-righteous sanctimony, will have absolutely no effects on a digital format is telling. 

This cannot be stressed enough. And weren't cd players themselves supposed to sound the same regardless of price once upon a time (and apparently, this still holds true in some forums to this day! )?

Paul, you are absolutely correct.  One of the reasons that I am here is due to moderator(s) telling me on open forums or in nasty PMs that I was an idiot, snake oil salesman, not paying attention "to the science" (how many times have we heard that term lately!) or calling me delusional.  That sucked.

There is a consistent theme on many forums that measurements tell all there is to know about SQ. We have yet to develop a measurement system that is anywhere close to the ear/brain discriminator 😁

[tmazz]

Demagnetizing CDs is an idea that has been around (and argued about) for decades. 

Remember the Bedini Ultra Clarifier?



This device came out in the 1990s and was essentially a motor that spun a CD at a high rate of speed over a number of magnets with the goal of dispersing and magnetic charges that had built up on the disc.

Like most tweaks in this hobby that Ultra Clarifier stirred up all kinds of sh#t storms. in a 1994 review, Myles Astor wrote about it "The Bedini Ultra Clarifier sets a new benchmark for degree of sound improvement. You owe it to yourself to get this product if you listen to digital. Otherwise, you haven't heard your discs." And on the other side of the fence were all kinds of nay sayers making they typical comments like is is snake oil, witchcraft or using it would make your penis fall off. (OK, I made the last one up, but you get the idea. )

Like everything else in this hobby the only thing that really matters in the end is how it sounds to your ears in your system. If you like, you buy it, if not you move on and invest your money elsewhere in your system. and the hell with that anybody else thinks...... or measures.

I got a used one for not a lot of money and used it regularly for quite a while, but then when we moved I did not have a place to put it where it was out and easily accessible. So it sits in a cabinet behind a closed door and out of sight, out of mind, I just have not used it in quite a while. Now I am going to have to pull it out and play with it again.

Of course I just finished ripping about 1600 CDs so they can be played through Roon. I probably should have demagged them first. 

[tmazz]

There is a consistent theme on many forums that measurements tell all there is to know about SQ. We have yet to develop a measurement system that is anywhere close to the ear/brain discriminator 😁

I got into a rather heated discussion with a guy at an audio show several years back where I was told that if I heard a difference that he couldn't measure then the difference did not exist and it was all in my imagination. I ended the argument by saying if I hear a difference that you can measure the answer is simply that you are measuring the wrong thing!

Game, set, match.


Trust only your ears........

[rollo]

   I have used the Radio Shack  Demag device for years. Did not need anyone to tell me if it worked. It works well. All my cables  get the treatment, twice a year. I use the Cardas/Ayre Demag disc for CDs before each listening session. All CDs have had the Radio Shack treatment.  Sounds better to me.


charles

[Nick B]

Demagnetizing CDs is an idea that has been around (and argued about) for decades. 

Remember the Bedini Ultra Clarifier?



This device came out in the 1990s and was essentially a motor that spun a CD at a high rate of speed over a number of magnets with the goal of dispersing and magnetic charges that had built up on the disc.

Like most tweaks in this hobby that Ultra Clarifier stirred up all kinds of sh#t storms. in a 1994 review, Myles Astor wrote about it "The Bedini Ultra Clarifier sets a new benchmark for degree of sound improvement. You owe it to yourself to get this product if you listen to digital. Otherwise, you haven't heard your discs." And on the other side of the fence were all kinds of nay sayers making they typical comments like is is snake oil, witchcraft or using it would make your penis fall off. (OK, I made the last one up, but you get the idea. )

Like everything else in this hobby the only thing that really matters in the end is how it sounds to your ears in your system. If you like, you buy it, if not you move on and invest your money elsewhere in your system. and the hell with that anybody else thinks...... or measures.

I got a used one for not a lot of money and used it regularly for quite a while, but then when we moved I did not have a place to put it where it was out and easily accessible. So it sits in a cabinet behind a closed door and out of sight, out of mind, I just have not used it in quite a while. Now I am going to have to pull it out and play with it again.

Of course I just finished ripping about 1600 CDs so they can be played through Roon. I probably should have demagged them first. 

Sure do remember the Bedini. Might have had one 25+ years ago.

[Nick B]

   I have used the Radio Shack  Demag device for years. Did not need anyone to tell me if it worked. It works well. All my cables  get the treatment, twice a year. I use the Cardas/Ayre Demag disc for CDs before each listening session. All CDs have had the Radio Shack treatment.  Sounds better to me.


charles

Years ago, I used this Densen disc for system demag
https://www.discogs.com/Densen-Densen-DeMagic-Gold/release/2492018

Just found this Furutech unit. It's a bit pricey....
https://douglasconnection.com/product/furutech-demag-ii-lp-disc-and-cable-demagnetizer/
Nick