opinions wanted on subwoofers

[Nick B]

The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps.  I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs.  In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before.  Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.

I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳  I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.

I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.

[Jack]

No need for a y-splitter as you have three sets of RCA outputs on the Chardonnay.  Once you get whatever you decide on up and running line level if you want to try it speaker level, which in some cases is preferable, then I can walk you through it so there is no smoke involved. It's just not as "foolproof" as the REL guys make it out to be doing it their way.  Between the two houses for now I have two systems set up each way based entirely on how and where the gear is set up. 

[Nick B]

No need for a y-splitter as you have three sets of RCA outputs on the Chardonnay.  Once you get whatever you decide on up and running line level if you want to try it speaker level, which in some cases is preferable, then I can walk you through it so there is no smoke involved. It's just not as "foolproof" as the REL guys make it out to be doing it their way.  Between the two houses for now I have two systems set up each way based entirely on how and where the gear is set up.

I have no preference for line level vs speaker connection at this point. Just keeping things simple would be the best for now. I've been watching a number of utube videos on sub connection preferences. Just saw one from Paul McGowan that was interesting.

[P.I.]

Mostly Off Topic Sidebar, ignore as desired.
As far balanced power VS plugging straight into the wall AC. The downside is that in most cases
the amplifier circuitry wants to see as low an impedance as the it can get near theoretical zero in regards to the AC supplied from the wall outlet.
Powercords, power filters and devices such as an Equatech all act to raise impedance.
If one looks at the rise time of a current spike waveform on its way from the wall to your amplifier
the peak of the waveform will be noticeably rounded off by the insertion of the power filter
and the Equatech. In the case of noise and damaging current spikes this is a good thing,
as far as meeting your amplifiers demands for high amounts of current for instantaneous
peaks in the music program, not so much.
This is a case of your milage may vary. It may be the cats' meow or not.
It may also prove useful for reducing circulating ground currents in equipment
where they are problematic. That would subject to trial and error testing during design.
It would be beneficial to solve those problems in the first place as they cause increased distortion
at the output of the circuit or device.
Scotty

Not a fan of BP for audio for several reasons.

I was doing some work at a local studio that sat on a 400A balanced power transformer installed by PNM, our local utility.  Dynamics - transients - were terrible.  The BPT was supposed to suppress compressor switching noise from a butcher shop in the same complex.

That is why I developed the BUSSes.  Gotta get the output impedance down for instantaneous current delivery.  Inductive loads, like transformers, want to see a capacitive input and vice versa.  That is the most effective scheme.

Another problem was grounding.  BPT employ virtual grounds, so additional protection attention to safety is essential and to prevent hums in some systems.

The implanters I worked on in the semi industry had some spectacular balanced power supplies.  They bumped either 480V 3 phase or 600V three phase up to several hundred thousand volts.  The Eagle implanter was a 1MegEV tool.  Should have seen the size of some of the capacitors! 

[P.I.]

No need for a y-splitter as you have three sets of RCA outputs on the Chardonnay.  Once you get whatever you decide on up and running line level if you want to try it speaker level, which in some cases is preferable, then I can walk you through it so there is no smoke involved. It's just not as "foolproof" as the REL guys make it out to be doing it their way.  Between the two houses for now I have two systems set up each way based entirely on how and where the gear is set up.

[P.I.]

The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps.  I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs.  In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before.  Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.

I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳  I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.

I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.

A lot depends upon the turnover frequency.  Pretty much anything below 50Hz "might" get away with a single sub.  It is not the sound so much that determines where LF originate.  It is the pressure gradient that rushes past at the speed of sound exciting the hair on your body and changes in pressures in ears, sinuses and the change of temperature on your skin as the transient that moves past you.  You know:  that "feeling" you get when the orchestral concert drum is smacked with a 10Hz-20Hz fundamental.  Awesome power!

[Nick B]

The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps.  I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs.  In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before.  Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.

I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳  I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.

I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.

A lot depends upon the turnover frequency.  Pretty much anything below 50Hz "might" get away with a single sub.  It is not the sound so much that determines where LF originate.  It is the pressure gradient that rushes past at the speed of sound exciting the hair on your body and changes in pressures in ears, sinuses and the change of temperature on your skin as the transient that moves past you.  You know:  that "feeling" you get when the orchestral concert drum is smacked with a 10Hz-20Hz fundamental.  Awesome power!

As wireless isn't a good idea due to latency, my sub location(s) is limited to between the speakers and the rack in the center. I'm inclined to go with gusto and try two. I was emailing Joe Rodgers at RSL about picking them up in person as I have family in so california and that's where RSL is located. He said that'd be fine. Anyway, lots to consider, and thank goodness this is all coming into sharper focus.

PS  I don't ever want to bi-wire, bi-amp, tri-amp etc etc so don't even bring it up 😀

[P.I.]

The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps.  I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs.  In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before.  Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.

Sounds like a plan! 
I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳  I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.

I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.

A lot depends upon the turnover frequency.  Pretty much anything below 50Hz "might" get away with a single sub.  It is not the sound so much that determines where LF originate.  It is the pressure gradient that rushes past at the speed of sound exciting the hair on your body and changes in pressures in ears, sinuses and the change of temperature on your skin as the transient that moves past you.  You know:  that "feeling" you get when the orchestral concert drum is smacked with a 10Hz-20Hz fundamental.  Awesome power!

As wireless isn't a good idea due to latency, my sub location(s) is limited to between the speakers and the rack in the center. I'm inclined to go with gusto and try two. I was emailing Joe Rodgers at RSL about picking them up in person as I have family in so california and that's where RSL is located. He said that'd be fine. Anyway, lots to consider, and thank goodness this is all coming into sharper focus.

PS  I don't ever want to bi-wire, bi-amp, tri-amp etc etc so don't even bring it up 😀

[Nick B]

The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps.  I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs.  In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before.  Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.

Sounds like a plan! 
I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳  I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.

I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.

A lot depends upon the turnover frequency.  Pretty much anything below 50Hz "might" get away with a single sub.  It is not the sound so much that determines where LF originate.  It is the pressure gradient that rushes past at the speed of sound exciting the hair on your body and changes in pressures in ears, sinuses and the change of temperature on your skin as the transient that moves past you.  You know:  that "feeling" you get when the orchestral concert drum is smacked with a 10Hz-20Hz fundamental.  Awesome power!

As wireless isn't a good idea due to latency, my sub location(s) is limited to between the speakers and the rack in the center. I'm inclined to go with gusto and try two. I was emailing Joe Rodgers at RSL about picking them up in person as I have family in so california and that's where RSL is located. He said that'd be fine. Anyway, lots to consider, and thank goodness this is all coming into sharper focus.

PS  I don't ever want to bi-wire, bi-amp, tri-amp etc etc so don't even bring it up 😀

Had another forum member advise privately that two subs is the way to go. That depending on the xover setting, using only one might require it to be placed more nearfield and centered. If necessary, that wouldn't be doable. Also quite important to me is relieving the load on the JMR 7" drivers.

[GDHAL]

editorial: I've stated it publicly never mind privately. Including here on the forum. No question multiples of two when it comes to subs is the way to go.... I mean night and day difference. Odd NG. Even YES

Now for some listening.... TB

EDIT: Didn't realize Nick you were even thinking of one sub. Better to have no sub in that instance. Only my opinion, of course.

[DRN]

I'm using one Rythmik  FT12SE I just got it in May and I have no problem with all the settings you could want. It sounds very good. I could have bought 2 but not in my room size of 16X12. In my opinion of course.
Opinions are like assholes we all have one.
That's why I don't do much on any of the boards.
BTW the Rythmik has some of the best documentation I have ever seen.

[Nick B]

editorial: I've stated it publicly never mind privately. Including here on the forum. No question multiples of two when it comes to subs is the way to go.... I mean night and day difference. Odd NG. Even YES

Now for some listening.... TB

EDIT: Didn't realize Nick you were even thinking of one sub. Better to have no sub in that instance. Only my opinion, of course.

How did you know that I read the editorials here and in the newspapers as well?? 😀
Hal, the consensus has been get two subs and be happy. I have a large, open floor plan and I think that would be best for me. I was only considering one sub because Joe Rodgers at RSL knew I was a sub newbie and I think he was trying to be nice and simplify things for me.

[Nick B]

I'm using one Rythmik  FT12SE I just got it in May and I have no problem with all the settings you could want. It sounds very good. I could have bought 2 but not in my room size of 16X12. In my opinion of course.
Opinions are like assholes we all have one.
That's why I don't do much on any of the boards.
BTW the Rythmik has some of the best documentation I have ever seen.

I had been on a quest to try the servo subs from Rythmik and looked at the dual 8" drivers in the FM 8. But they're a $1,000 each and I didn't want to spend that much plus maybe need an external crossover. So after a lot of good advice and private emails to me as well, I've decided on using 2 subs and most likely the very well regarded RSL 10" Speedwoofer Mk II. Now there's a fly in the ointment as a member here saw an ad for 2 used L12 Rythmik servo subs. Same nice small footprint, but a bit heavier at 50 lbs each than the 40 lb RSLs. They are listed on Audiomart for $900 a pair, but I can have them shipped new from Rythmik to my door for $1,206. I'd somewhat consider it if it were a better deal and I could likely pick up the used pair as I have family in so. California. Those Rythmik are line only, which would be my first choice right now for a connection. But they don't have speaker connections, so there'd be no opportunity to try out the speaker connections in the future.

As to your situation, you have a smaller room and if one sub works for you, that's great. As to not posting more, I'm sure you'd have lots to contribute. We all have experiences and opinions. It's fun for me to hear those from others. As I knew nothing about sub use before, I now have enough of a baseline to get started. I did a lot of reading, looked at videos and was open minded to the many comments here. Starting this thread has been extremely helpful for me to get to this point.

[Nick B]

The latest on my subwoofer quest....

The seller of 2 used Rythmik L12s never responded to my inquiry and I never found any other good deals on used subs. So today I placed an order for 2 Rythmik L12 servo subs. The price is good at $1,200 delivered. The small size is quite good in between my rack and Reynaud speakers and at 50 lbs each, they're quite manageable. I will be using gliders just like the Reynauds that come with them from the factory.

I appreciate all the information and suggestions. It allowed me, after a time, to narrow my focus and decide on the L12s. I have been curious about servo subs for quite a while. I remember asking about subs here a few years ago, but then I was only using the KEF LS 50s. This Reynaud 2 way is excellent and the best speaker I've owned. I had Bob Smith's SP Tech Timepiece 2 speakers for a few years and they were excellent, but a bit ruthless sometimes on the top end. Not the JMR....

[P.I.]

The latest on my subwoofer quest....

The seller of 2 used Rythmik L12s never responded to my inquiry and I never found any other good deals on used subs. So today I placed an order for 2 Rythmik L12 servo subs. The price is good at $1,200 delivered. The small size is quite good in between my rack and Reynaud speakers and at 50 lbs each, they're quite manageable. I will be using gliders just like the Reynauds that come with them from the factory.

I appreciate all the information and suggestions. It allowed me, after a time, to narrow my focus and decide on the L12s. I have been curious about servo subs for quite a while. I remember asking about subs here a few years ago, but then I was only using the KEF LS 50s. This Reynaud 2 way is excellent and the best speaker I've owned. I had Bob Smith's SP Tech Timepiece 2 speakers for a few years and they were excellent, but a bit ruthless sometimes on the top end. Not the JMR....

Just wait.

Heh, heh...