A good read at Audio Circle. Much enthusiasm from many people.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.0)
So....did you order one Jim ?
Chris,
Not yet; how about yourself?
Jim
The thread has degenerated from my first post. :(
Quote from: hogg on April 26, 2012, 10:33:18 AM
Chris,
Not yet; how about yourself?
Jim
No Jim...but I'm interested in hearing one.
QuoteThe thread has degenerated from my first post.
Happens easy....when there's a large crowd involved Mike.
It's easy to get used to the 'country life' around here... nice and slow, kinda quiet... ;)
Yup slow and easy. Just perfect. It is getting heated over on AC over class "D" amps.
charles
Quote from: rollo on April 28, 2012, 06:30:02 AM
Yup slow and easy. Just perfect. It is getting heated over on AC over class "D" amps.
Yep, flat out ugly. What bugs me is that all sorts pile on based on preconceived notions. If it sounds good, great, if not, move along but at least listen before condemnation or adulation. No need for a freakin' Jihad based on the amp topology. :duh
mike
I read the first couple pages before the roaches moved in.
So Mike, do you have yours up and running? Do you have the NC400s? How is the treble sound on them? On par with the best tube amps? even OTLs?
http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=100 (http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=100)
$430
Zo .7mOhms! :thumb:
It's tempting to hang it right off the back of the bass driver, with a couple inches of 2ga copper grounding cable.
I'll have to head down to Jason's again this summer to hear the new crossovers, new DAC and the new amp. It was nice of him to send it out on tour.
It's intriguing to me because it would open up the possibility of using high resolution full range speakers that need high power amps which usually cost too much for me.
Quote from: mgalusha on April 28, 2012, 08:35:15 PM
Quote from: rollo on April 28, 2012, 06:30:02 AM
Yup slow and easy. Just perfect. It is getting heated over on AC over class "D" amps.
Yep, flat out ugly. What bugs me is that all sorts pile on based on preconceived notions. If it sounds good, great, if not, move along but at least listen before condemnation or adulation. No need for a freakin' Jihad based on the amp topology. :duh
mike
So true. What gets me is until they hear it no comments should be made. For the money and if one is handy the N-core just may be the ticket.
Now if you said it sounds good that is enough for me since I respect your ears. We owned the same Amp the Cyber 211.
How does the N-Core compare to that sound of SET ? If one desires the use of multiple Amps driving each driver using an electronic crossover just may be the ticket to DIY Nirvana.
For me personally I would have to pay to build one. No DIY experience. Then again until heard it is moot.
The Arions have opened my eyes to what is possible with Class "D". I'm sure there are more ways to skin the Cat with class "D" , very interested as to how the N-cores sound.
Shut eyes take us nowhere. Open eyes increase the learning curve. Thanks Mike.
charles
Quote from: richidoo on April 29, 2012, 09:58:35 AM
So Mike, do you have yours up and running? Do you have the NC400s? How is the treble sound on them? On par with the best tube amps? even OTLs?
Rich,
Yes, mine arrived on 4/16 and since I had the chassis ready, they were running that evening. :)
As for sound, they seem to not really have one, at least that is the impression that most who have heard them come away with and the one that I have as well. The bass is pretty amazing, as one would expect with a ZOut of .7mOhm. Thus far I have not had problems with listening fatigue or grain/grit/irritation in the treble. If a recording has a warm lush sound, that is what I am hearing. Thin recordings, pretty thin. None of the extra warmth that some SET and even PP tube amps provide. I wouldn't mind a bit of that for some discs but that's why I have a tube preamp. :) One thing that I have found is the low noise and or low distortion allows for a lot of low level details to come through; in my system this isn't in your face but a sense of just little things the musicians are doing, sense of space of the recording venue, that sort of thing. I like the little nuances, to me that is what helps the illusion.
With speakers like the Abbey's they have effectively no power limit since a few watts is really loud. I have pushed them hard on some well recorded drum solos just to see how much realism was possible. Let's just say I have flashbacks to my younger days when I had a drummer for a roomie. It was a physical as well as aural experience. A buddy came down Saturday for a listen, he thought it would be a good idea since he had already ordered them. He left happy and not looking to cancel his order. He commented on the amount of low level information as well and the fact it wasn't forward sounding. I had to leave the room for a while and when I came back he had it really cranked up, trying to see if there was a problem with irritation at high levels, he didn't find a problem.
Yesterday I took them to another friends place, he has Vienna Acoustics Mahler's and drives them with a Krell FPB-600 and has a great fondness for bass heavy electronica. The NC400's had no issues driving the Mahler's to silly levels and he specifically mentioned they offered not only the iron grip of the Krell but were much more articulate in the bass. Also mentioned was the treble was considerably sweeter than the Krell, but I've never been a big fan of the treble on big Krell's. I'm 99% sure he's going to replace the giant amp with a pair of the Hypex. His last words were "they kicked the Krell's butt".
To answer Charles question, they don't offer the somewhat inherent lushness of an SET but I've never been sure if SET's sound good because of their second order THD or in spite of it. Either way, a good SET/speaker pairing is a thing of beauty. IMO the NCore don't fall into the beautiful category but beautiful music is the result. When I had Jason's pair another buddy came by and observed that we stopped analyzing the sound after a while and instead commented on how lovely the music was, how good the performance was, how good xxx could sing. For me, that is what I care about. I was listening to the Shostakovitch Jazz Suites from a Naxos DVD yesterday and just kept getting sucked in, that is what I want my system to do.
I'm not trying to be a fanboy type, hell, I've had the opportunity to try a lot of amps in my system via friends, repairs and of course purchase and for me, in my space, these are doing the best job of getting out of the way. I am absolutely certain they won't be for everyone, and I could care less if they are or are not. Someone more golden eared will probably pronounce them unlistenable and to that person, they may well be; that is equally fine. :)
mike
That's great Mike!! Thanks so much for sharing your impressions.
Are you using all-Hypex PS?
AC has given rise to many 'fad of the moment' pieces of gear. I think folks now compete to be the first to shoot it down as junk.
Anyway, this is AN so I'm really happy to hear your thoughts about this amp, Mike. I do wonder whether it would work for me, especially in a digital xo/multi-amp setup.
I am 'skeptical' of it fitting my tastes because I haven't heard a digital or 'd' or switching amp I liked (yet). However, I also hadn't heard an oversampling DAC I liked... but then along came this latest batch of super awesome designs... So, things change! Being open to change is what this hobby is about. Being skeptical is smart financially. ;)
(And maybe that's a part of why people get upset... They don't want it to be better than what they have... I don't know.)
In any case, I do appreciate you sharing your observations here. We have a lot of readers... probably 10:1 over participants.
-C
Quote from: richidoo on April 30, 2012, 12:41:46 PM
That's great Mike!! Thanks so much for sharing your impressions.
Are you using all-Hypex PS?
You're welcome Rich. I don't mind doing so but don't care for dealing with small minded folks.
Yes, I'm using the matching SMPS. While I have not been a big SMPS fan, it's tough to argue with a -128dB signal to noise ratio.
- Carl, you and me both in regards to a class D I could live with. I was predisposed to dislike this but since I had the opportunity for a listen I took advantage of it. For me it's working out well but who knows, in a few months maybe I will find out it's radioactive. :) I'm a born skeptic, I like knowing the science behind things and Bruno @ Hypex is extremely open about what he's doing and providing the measurements to back it up.
mike
First post over here at AN. Be gentle.... :roll:
Small world. I discovered the Geddes Abbey speakers through Mike G's review and now we have the same amplifier (one of them anyway...).
I've had my NC400s (NCORE 400's) since February and would agree with everything Mike posted above. They will not be everyone's cup of tea, but what is in this hobby. Personal tastes ultimately are a key part of the equation.
I do believe they set a new price/performance standard in terms of combined accuracy, resolution and musicality - assuming you pick them up the DIY route where your total spend will be just under $2K versus the $10-12K retail route.
The area where all previous Class D amps fell down for me is they sounded "over-caffeinated" and had a glassy, un-natural sounding high frequency, which quickly led to listener fatigue. They over exaggerated leading edge transients and truncated the decay. Despite these negatives, I found myself enjoying various Class D amps for periods of time, but ultimately preferring my Class A SS and OTL's for their better tonal balance and natural sound.
To my ears, the NC400s get the tonal and energy balance right. Gone is the over-emphasis of the attack. Attack and decay sound like live music. There is a harmonic richness of instruments and vocalists, which grabs you. I listen to a lot of live unamplified music, especially piano and the NC400s sound much more true to live. Second, the resolving power is phenomenal. Truly. The NC400s expose new details on very familiar recordings and it does it with complete and utter effortlessness. One really notices this on complex passages. The size and location of performers and instruments as well as the recording venue are much more accurately rendered. Bass is the best I have ever heard. Lastly, the NC400s sound great at low volume and at even very high volume there is not even a hint of distortion.
I think we all have seen highly hyped new audio products come and go like the wind. So maintaining healthy skepticism is a good thing in my book. Unfortunately, as many of you noted, there is some pretty unhealthy posts going on over on the AC forum. All I can recommend is that you give the NC400's a listen and come to your own conclusions.
Welcome to AN Earflappin. Thanks for your impressions.
I agree with them. :mrgreen:
As do I....
Thanks and welcome! We are a gentle bunch for the most part so, no worries, Earflappin'. ;)
Quote from: richidoo on April 30, 2012, 12:41:46 PM
That's great Mike!! Thanks so much for sharing your impressions.
.............+1 :beer:
I find Hypex's documentation refreshing.
I especially liked this excerpt:
Quote
12.2.1 Way of looking at it when you're only familiar with unbalanced wiring.
The solution adopted by the NC400 is a floating input, consisting of a "hot" and a "cold" connection,
which can be connected to the source like the primary of an isolation transformer. This breaks any
current flow that might otherwise flow in the audio cable. You would never directly connect the cold
pin of the input connector to the ground pin in the same way as you would never locally ground
input of an isolation transformer because it would no longer provide isolation.
Note that this isolation is not absolute. Differentials of more than a few 100mV should be avoided.
Because of this, some current path should be provided using a third wire. Any current that flows
through that wire is current that's no longer flowing through your audio cable, and which is now
harmless.
(diagram)
12.2.2 Way of looking at it if you're used to working with balanced connections.
The NC400 has a balanced input.
I'm with you Carl, balanced lines don't make things sound better, they just prevent them from sounding worse. Noise rejection is a good thing. Kinda like :yay2:
Same concept as Equitech balanced power, using a floating ground. I think that has been part of the Hypex design philosophy going way back? Or is it new to NCore?
Welcome Jason, and cab!
Rich,
I'm pretty sure that Hypex has been using balanced inputs for a long time. I suspect that is because much of their output is for pro audio and pro gear all balanced.
Welcome, Earflappin.
Nicely written commentary. I bet you got much better grades than a "D" in "Class."
I agree with Mike and David's comments. They are spot on in terms of the sound of the amps, or lack thereof.
I know I am loving mine :thumb:
Quote from: jtwrace on April 30, 2012, 05:31:39 PM
I agree with them. :mrgreen:
Jason good to see you here. Your input will be greatly appreciated on AN. Stick around awhile.
charles
Quote from: rollo on May 01, 2012, 07:37:04 AM
Quote from: jtwrace on April 30, 2012, 05:31:39 PM
I agree with them. :mrgreen:
Jason good to see you here. Your input will be greatly appreciated on AN. Stick around awhile.
charles
Thanks for having me! :thumb:
Do you have to build these? I like mine pre made!
Quote from: machinehead on May 01, 2012, 01:12:19 PM
Do you have to build these? I like mine pre made!
Yes, but it's really not too tough, it's just wiring modules together, not stuffing boards ;)
Quote from: Barry (NJ) on May 01, 2012, 01:25:23 PM
Quote from: machinehead on May 01, 2012, 01:12:19 PM
Do you have to build these? I like mine pre made!
Yes, but it's really not too tough, it's just wiring modules together, not stuffing boards ;)
And the wires from the modules are pre-made too. You need to connect power in to an IEC or connector of choice, hookup speaker wire from NC400 to binding posts and solder the premade Mogami input wires to your supplied XLR connector.
Of course this is after you select the chassis of choice.
Very simple!
Cool. I have a solder kit shouldn't be too hard I guess :-P
Does one actualy require an enclosure ? What about using the Altman DAC method of attaching to a spruce board or wood of the day. ? Will the modules benifit from RFI/EMI shielding from an enclosure say Aluminum ?
charles
It would work on a board, but the risk of electrocution from ~40VDC PS is too great to leave the connections exposed. Even the Altmann DAC had plastic PS connectors on the DAC PCB. Only the battery terminals were exposed and should be covered for interior use. It would be better to build the wood board into a full wood box. After having built many wood boxes for electronics to save money, I will probably never do it again. The price for a good aluminum box from Par metal is low compared to the extra effort it takes to make connectors designed to mounting in sheet metal work in thicker wood. Only the IEC connector is difficult, all other connectors can be cut with a 1/2" unibit.
The full shielding does make a difference, maybe it is the ground reservoir concept, or noise shielding. The modules won't benefit from shielding as much as the outside world will benefit from shielding the noisy amp.
I would definitely use an enclosure. The exposed voltage and current of the SMPS600 supply is very high and there are several metal contact points, so it is a safety issue. I bought my pair of nicely finished compact cases (RE2207) from www.siliconray.com (http://www.siliconray.com) for about $150 total, shipped from China. Drill 2 XLR holes and 4 binding post holes and you're done. The IEC openings are even cut for you.
Nice source Tom!
http://www.siliconray.com/mechanical/enclosures.html (http://www.siliconray.com/mechanical/enclosures.html)
Which box did you get?
Rich,
Go into the mechanical pull down menu and you will see RE2207 at the website
Quote from: rollo on May 02, 2012, 09:44:04 AM
Does one actualy require an enclosure ?
Yes, it''s a very good idea. Not only for safety but also for longevity of the NC400. The module gets very warm without a heat sink but once it's on an aluminum enclosure (which is a heat sink) it's barely even warm.
See the data sheet here and look at section 10.1
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf)
Quote
Will the modules benifit from RFI/EMI shielding from an enclosure say Aluminum ?
Bruno the designer say's no.
Quote from: richidoo on May 02, 2012, 01:15:56 PM
Nice source Tom!
http://www.siliconray.com/mechanical/enclosures.html (http://www.siliconray.com/mechanical/enclosures.html)
Which box did you get?
The only hint I'll make with "Mike" is that you have him ship using EMS otherwise it will take ~20 days to the USA. I've ordered 6 cases from him now.... :shock:
The only thing that I've done are new faceplates. :D
This enclosure (http://www.siliconray.com/mechanical/enclosures/re4307-430x70x308-aluminum-enclosure.html) could probably hold 2 amps and 2 power supplies, so dual mono except for the power chord.
Is the sound better than any class D available today?
I like that Bruno is only selling to the end user. Kind of cool!
For whatever it's worth, these aren't exactly cheap. It'll cost 1010 Euros for 2 amp modules, and 2 power supplies, currently $1330.00 plus a case or two and hardware and you're looking at $1,500. Not at all crazy by Hi-End standards, but not cheap either. Just wanted to bring that perspective to the thread ;)
https://www.hypexshop.com/DetailServlet?detailID=4466 (https://www.hypexshop.com/DetailServlet?detailID=4466)
Has anyone compared the Ghent ICE amp to the NCore? If you're not familiar with the Ghent amp, here's a link:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/icepower-125asx2-a200b-mono-550w-x-2-ch-se-amp--2 (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/icepower-125asx2-a200b-mono-550w-x-2-ch-se-amp--2)
I've owned the Ghent amp for a few months. I think it's very good and far better than the Class D amps or the earlier ICE generations. I'm using it as two mono blocs in one chasis. The output is claimed to be 550W/channel. It's one of the few amps that doessn't clip, when playing the Japanese Kodo drummers at high volume on my ATC SCM11's. I paid $670 incl shipping for this amp fully-assembled.
I'm hoping the two amps can be compared, when the NCore is with Martin Joseph or Paul Kaplan.
Jim
Make the trip down Jim, bring the Ghent...I think the Ncore should be in NY as soon as next week.
I am looking forward to hearing this much praised amp.
I'd love to hear these side by side against W4S's monos...
Me too. Maybe we can hear them at Emils? Oh Emil....
Hi Martin,
If you have a free day when you get the amps. I would love to compare it to my Spectron IMS.
Joe
I'd love to hear about that Joe. I liked the Spectron Musician when I tried it for a short time.
They'll be in the NYC area Sunday or Monday, they are currently in South-Jersey, outside of Philly. I may head down there to give them a listen on Saturday, and they are to be sent to the next in line that afternoon. If it works out I may be the delivery man, as the next in line is in the NYC metro area.
I have a Cherry that'd love to meet up with that Ncore! If only I got off my butt and got a dac already
WOW I just can't be-lieve that someone made a class D amp worth listening to :roll:
If it happens Rich, I'll post some thoughts.
My Spectron mk.2 has upgraded VH AUDIO CuFT caps. It adds a nice improvement in tonality, IMHO.
Joe
Id like to hear it, can a minirave be held, Emil is planning something in June and he has lots of space to swap out equipment...
Quote from: machinehead on May 04, 2012, 06:03:59 AM
Id like to hear it, can a minirave be held, Emil is planning something in June and he has lots of space to swap out equipment...
These N-Cores belong to Jason (jtwrace) and they are on a loner/tour by his generosity.
I don't think they'll be in this area for more than 6~7 days.
Maybe the May 12th mini rave at my place could be a shootout. Joe's Spectron, N-core, W4S and Arion hybrid. All compared to 18W SET custom mono blocks.
Speakers available will be , Pipedreams, Soundfield monitors and Lenehan ML-1R. Source either Kuzma TT or Plinius CD 101.
Let me know if it can happen. So far only 3 have responded.
charles
I would have loved to come by Charles, but I'm taking my daughter to a teen driving seminar that day. I may be able to come by afterwards, but I don't know what time the seminar is over.
As far as an amp shoot out on the 12th goes, It all depends on who has them at that date, and when they're scheduled to be sent to the next in line. The N-Core tour rules and details are posted here --> http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105395.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105395.0)
Oh hum
Quote from: 2two on May 04, 2012, 09:13:06 AM
Oh hum
Now you're talkin!!
Paul has Martens, right? That combo should reach max theoretical resolution! :thumb:
I will host a G2G in NC featuring Jason's N-Cores in about 2-3 months at end of tour.
Quote from: richidoo on May 04, 2012, 09:43:50 AM
I will host a G2G in NC featuring Jason's N-Cores in about 2-3 months at end of tour.
Rock on! :thumb:
FWIW... If memory serves me correctly... Jason had built one of the classdaudio amps... as part of that he built some enclosures... from what I understand, they turned out really nice. Would like to see some of his work.
edit: Found the case info (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=album;id=4288)
Dave
Quote from: djdube525 on May 04, 2012, 04:00:49 PM
Quote from: richidoo on May 04, 2012, 09:43:50 AM
I will host a G2G in NC featuring Jason's N-Cores in about 2-3 months at end of tour.
Rock on! :thumb:
FWIW... If memory serves me correctly... Jason had built one of the classdaudio amps... as part of that he built some enclosures... from what I understand, they turned out really nice. Would like to see some of his work.
edit: Found the case info (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=album;id=4288)
Dave
Yes, Yes, :thumb: & Case-http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=album;id=4288
and my subs-http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=album;id=2445
QuotePaul has Martens, right? That combo should reach max theoretical resolution! Thumbs Up
Yah...maximum trust into hyperspace. :lol:
I have a mere humble VMPS RM1 (partly active).
Maybe we can even get it over to Wes, hear it on his Hanson Prince II.
Fun week next..
So Martin let me understand this. You'll be strapping the NCore to your chest and the Hansen's to your back and running them over to Charles' home?
Seriously, what is the plan?
Jim
Quote from: hogg on May 05, 2012, 01:48:12 PM
So Martin let me understand this. You'll be strapping the NCore to your chest and the Hansen's to your back and running them over to Charles' home?
Seriously, what is the plan?
Jim
Plan?
Plan is to hear how the Ncore sounds in my system vs. what I got and what has been through here.
Never been to Charles home...dunno where that came from. =;
Wes is in Munich, so that part is moot.
I was going to have a Mini Rave May 12the and thought if possible the N-Cores could make a visit.
No response to that so I guess no mini Rave. It was my Idea too possibly coordinate a listen for a bunch of us but again no response from Martin. Thought I could help out all who desired to hear it. Oh well.
charles
The N-Cores are on a very strict, tightly run, tour. Jason is pretty adamant about them staying in one place for no more than 3 days, before being sent to the next participant. I was lucky that I was able to squeeze myself into a night with them by playing courier.
I heard them at Dan's (Letitroll98 on AC) home in South Jersey on Saturday afternoon, and liked what I'd heard of them there. That evening, I had Al (hifial on AC), his buddy Kevin (both of whom had traveled south to Dan's for a listen), and Raver Gary (he happened to call out of the blue asking about some DIY speaker cables), over to my place for a listen. We listened to some various tracks from Fiona Apple "Tidal", Norah Jones "Come Away With Me", Johnny Cash "American 4: The Man Comes Around", some music that Al had brought, and a classical disc that Gary had brought. Initially the N-Cores were plugged into my Belkin PF60 power conditioner, and Though Al preferred the N-Cores by a smidgen, I was not swayed. I felt there was more bloom, space, and air, with my Alchemy amp in the system, Gary agreed with me, said he'd heard enough, and he decided it was time for him to go. After Gary left, Al suggested we not use the Belkin with the N-Cores, as Bruno (the designer) really recommends against using a conditioner. This is difficult for me as I only have one outlet available for my system, so I grabbed a short, but fairly heavy gauge, extension cord and plugged the N-Cores into it. Lo-And-Behold they opened up nicely. My impression is that they are the epitome of neutral, not sterile, but neutral, I feel my Alchemy still offers more Bloom but that Bloom is very likely an artifact of that amplifier.
Sunday morning was hectic for me, but after my son's soccer game I packed the amps up and headed into Brooklyn to deliver them to Paul. Al and his friend Kevin were also in headed over there, so I car-pooled with them. I went into Paul's to deliver the amps while Al and Kevin parked the car, so I had a chance to listen to Paul's system with his AKSA amp in place, to help give me a base line there. We tried the N-Cores with and with out power conditioning at Paul's as well, and again they preformed better right into the wall. Paul is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to power conditioning, I don't claim to fully understand the explination he gave that afternoon, but he said he was not totally surprised by this as he believes that there is enough conditioning and isolation built into the SMPS600, so that more conditioning hurts rather than helps. My thoughts after listening at Paul's reinforced what I'd concluded at my home. So again, the AKSA was not blown out of the water by the N-Core, but the N-Core seemed to have a more neutral presentation.
I don't feel the need to dump my Alchemy, but these would be top contenders for me, if/when the time comes, that I need a replacement amplifier, especially considering the price performance. As I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on my audio hobby, and for what I've seen/heard, these are a very very good value that I could be happy with.
Regarding the Power Supply: At my home I have tried several different amps of a Class-D switching amp topology, and ALL of them, from several of the Class-D Audio kits, to the Ghent ICE Modules, to the DAC Cherry amplifiers, to the Bel Canto e.One S125 I recently won in a raffle, produce an audible 60Hz hum at the listening position. With my Alchemy, the transformers hum, and there is a slight hum through the speakers as well, but is isn't audible from the listening position. The N-Cores were DEAD QUIET. Not a thing was heard from my speakers when the CD was not playing. This is a first for me in my home, and is another reason the N-Core is very high on my list when I decide I have some money to put into my system.
Thanks for your thoughts Barry. Did you like them better then Mike's cherry amp in your setup?
I think they handle the upper frequencies better than the Cherry amps, but I think the Cherry amps have more dynamics and slam.
Quote from: hogg on May 02, 2012, 07:50:37 PM
Has anyone compared the Ghent ICE amp to the NCore? If you're not familiar with the Ghent amp, here's a link:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/icepower-125asx2-a200b-mono-550w-x-2-ch-se-amp--2 (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/icepower-125asx2-a200b-mono-550w-x-2-ch-se-amp--2)
I've owned the Ghent amp for a few months. I think it's very good and far better than the Class D amps or the earlier ICE generations. I'm using it as two mono blocs in one chasis. The output is claimed to be 550W/channel. It's one of the few amps that doessn't clip, when playing the Japanese Kodo drummers at high volume on my ATC SCM11's. I paid $670 incl shipping for this amp fully-assembled.
I'm hoping the two amps can be compared, when the NCore is with Martin Joseph or Paul Kaplan.
Jim
Has this comparison been made yet? I'd especially be interested in seeing (hearing) whether the extra $$$ for the NCore amps vs. the Ghent amps is worth it or not.
Thanks!
SN
Quote from: StereoNut on June 04, 2012, 12:06:17 PM
Quote from: hogg on May 02, 2012, 07:50:37 PM
Has anyone compared the Ghent ICE amp to the NCore? If you're not familiar with the Ghent amp, here's a link:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/icepower-125asx2-a200b-mono-550w-x-2-ch-se-amp--2 (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/icepower-125asx2-a200b-mono-550w-x-2-ch-se-amp--2)
I've owned the Ghent amp for a few months. I think it's very good and far better than the Class D amps or the earlier ICE generations. I'm using it as two mono blocs in one chasis. The output is claimed to be 550W/channel. It's one of the few amps that doessn't clip, when playing the Japanese Kodo drummers at high volume on my ATC SCM11's. I paid $670 incl shipping for this amp fully-assembled.
I'm hoping the two amps can be compared, when the NCore is with Martin Joseph or Paul Kaplan.
Jim
Has this comparison been made yet? I'd especially be interested in seeing (hearing) whether the extra $$$ for the NCore amps vs. the Ghent amps is worth it or not.
Thanks!
SN
StereoNut -
It will be a truly unfair comparison now since Round 2 of the NCore tour includes a 6 ft. pair of Triode Wire Labs "Seven Plus" cords with the amps... :rofl:
Jason (jtwrace) requested them & I obliged... should be a nice synergy since my cords seem to gel nicely with Class D amps... :thumb:
Cheers,
Pete
Hi Guys
An acquaintance out here in Aus lent me some Ncores and a few hours ago popped them in my system with a NAD M51 as source and ML3 Reference as speakers. Here are some of my initial impressions.
Well how do they sound - clear, clean, pure and neutral - very neutral. With the NAD 51 as source I heard the exact same setup with Mac 501's yesterday and know the sound of my NAKSA 100 very well. First how do they compare to the Mac's - very well thank you very much. Bass grip not quite as good - still pretty good mind you - but those Mac's have simply amazing bass grip. They have a slightly harder sound with maybe a trace of glare - maybe - than the Mac's but the Mac's to me have a slighly tubey midrange and a slight veil - this doesn't have the veil - but have a slight hardness and etched character the Mac's lack and the midrange isn't quite as enjoyable. The Mac's are better to listen to for long periods IMHO. The Trafomatic totally clobers it for midrange divineness - but then again no amp I have heard touches it in that department - although the Arions come close. It's not like the NAKSA which Hugh has voiced to sound really good for long periods - but is not the last word in neutrality - and is more the type of amp you go - ahh - that's nice when you hear it - this amp isn't. Its more the type of amp you go - hmmm - exactly what character does it have and you have to listen to it for a while to lock onto it and notice a few things like the slight hardness etc. How does it compare to the Arions? I will see if I can do a direct comparison at some future date but most certainly a comparison with my aquantances that have heard the Arion's is on the cards. My view is the Arions simply sound real - this amp sounds slighly hard, etched and contrived in comparison. How does it compare to the NAD C4390DD - the NAD has greater slam but sort of sounds a bit thicker for want of a better word. But overall fed with the NAD M51 I would say they are about equal - just slightly different.
I hope to, when I have someone to give me a hand, be able to rig it up through my QOL Completion stage so we can check it out against my Bybeed up PDX. I will be taking it over to an acquaintance here in Aus, Rob's place, tomorrow for comparison against his Spectron on his Ambiance Ribbons.
I will also give it a go with my Playback Designs a bit later - it is extremely good with DSD having a very realistic natural sound.
Overall this is a very very good amp - up there with some of the better amps I have heard. If you prefer a highly neutral and accurate sound and are not worried it may not be relaxing to listen to for long periods then it could be just your ticket.
Thanks
Bill
Good description Bill, similar to my experience with NCore.
I am hoping to get a chance to hear some N Core's at the Capitol Audiofest.i have not had a chance to hear any yet.
I wonder if Mola-Mola, or one of the other OEMs, will have their NCore amps ready and on display, all the discussion so far has been about the DIY modules(?)
Hi Guys
Just returned from Robs place where we did a few comparisons with his Ambiance Ribbons. First was a WFS DAC2 into a Modright valve pre amp and a bybeed Spectron digital amp. Thought I heard the Saber signature of a slight dryness and sibilance but as many have noted is was much more palatable feeding it into valves - although not totally eliminated. Next we put in the NAD M51. A wetter more honeyed sound with the M51 but interestingly the sibilance control was not as good as the WFS which was interesting. It was thought that overall they were pretty equal. OK we popped in the NCores. Unfortunately the sound immediately dropped away - voices became very recessed and everything was closed in. Detail not as good.Treble was not as clean. Next we put the M51 direct into the Ncores. Immediate improvement - better detail, voices not closed in and a bit cleaner - but at the cost of a slight hardness to the sound. It looks like the Ncores may not like valve pre-amp's but of course more experimentation would be required to form any firm conclusions. We then put the WFS direct into the Spectron. Yea the dryness and sibilance was now there in full force - but the detail was improved. I personally preferred the valve pre-amp. Then the M51 was tried direct to the Spectron. I preferred the M51 that way over the pre-amp. The Spectron revealed more detail, the slight hardness of the Ncores were gone and the imaging was more refined but compared to the WFS it was a bit dull and not as transparent - I preferred the WFS.
The bottom line here is yes the Ncores are excellent value for money and sounds very good, but when compared to the MUCH more expensive Spectron the Spectron was clearly better.
Thanks
Bill
Ncores replaced Spectron in my system....so I wouldn't make any absolute statements.
Forgive my ignorance as chip amps are not my cup of tea, so I really have not been paying attention, but aren't the Ncores kits? And can these kits be built(implimented ) differently, with different results?
Just wondering.
mike
They are modules available to end users for diy and to oem's. There isn't a whole lot to do but connect some wiring and put them in a case.
Quote from: cab on July 01, 2012, 04:03:44 PM
They are modules available to end users for diy and to oem's.
Correction: NC400 modules are for DIYers, NC1200 modules are for the OEM market only.
And yes, depending on the build+parts used one can get different sounds.
Quote from: topround on July 01, 2012, 03:13:10 PM
Forgive my ignorance as chip amps are not my cup of tea, so I really have not been paying attention, but aren't the Ncores kits?
FWIW, they are not chip amps, the NC400 DIY modules are fully discrete, no op-amps and MOSFET output devices. They are awfully small tho. :)
Quote from: cab on July 01, 2012, 07:34:25 AMNcores replaced Spectron in my system....so I wouldn't make any absolute statements.
Yea a number of people have said they preferred the Ncores to the Spectrons - but that's not what we heard.
Thanks
Bill
Curious myself as to their character. I have a preconceived notion that the neutrality of this Amp is lean in character and very detailed.
However I am one of those Guys who insists on hands on experience before commenting on a component. Hence my curiosity.
Mike owning the Cyber 211s at one time how does the N-Core compare in sonics ??
charles
Hi Charles
I would not describe it as lean - it is extremely neutral all right - what I have heard is a slight hardness and a funny presentation when fed into a Modright pre amp - much much better without it.
I will try and do a direct comparison to some Mac 501's today and see how that goes. Trouble is I would like to check it out with the best DAC I own - my Bybeed up PDX - but that does not have balanced out. I can rig it through my Qol completion stage but am waiting on some new decent cables I am having built before putting that permanently into my system. I am picking up the new cables today and will see if I can try it that way.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: rollo on July 03, 2012, 06:53:38 AM
Mike owning the Cyber 211s at one time how does the N-Core compare in sonics ??
Charles, they are very different animals. In my mind the Cyber 211 (and it's 845 brother) add some very pleasant harmonics, almost entirely 2nd harmonic. The NCore amps don't seem to add anything and any harmonics they do add are more than 100dB down from the signal, so they are seemingly pretty neutral.
I bought my pair without hearing them and like you I was afraid they would be lean and sterile. They are not intrinsically sterile but they don't add any warmth either, which most tube amps do, particularly SET's, at least in my view and from what I've heard. Don't get me wrong, I have owned my share of tube amps and in fact there are still a couple in my basement. I hooked up the Aranov 960 a couple of weeks ago while trying some speakers I picked up for my neighbor, we both loved the sound with the tube amp, it matched well with the speakers. Technically as accurate, almost certainly not, enjoyable, damn right. :)
The NC400's are warmer in my system than the Atma-Sphere M60's were and of course have effectively unlimited power with my 95dB sensitivity speakers. :)
IMO the Ncore amps claim to fame is reproducing a damn close facsimile of what they are fed, there is no question that won't make everyone happy or cause equal enjoyment. Like nearly everything else, it kind of comes down to what you value and what compromises you're willing to live with, all solutions have some, pick 'yer poison as they say. 8)
One thing that Bill mentioned that I have observed, if the source gear has any weaknesses, they will happily spit them out, I have very definitely had to look at the upstream bits.
mike
Quote from: mgalusha on July 04, 2012, 08:44:46 PMOne thing that Bill mentioned that I have observed, if the source gear has any weaknesses, they will happily spit them out, I have very definitely had to look at the upstream bits.
They are EXTREMELY transparent which is why I want to check them out with the best source gear I can get hold of. I was unable to check them against the Mac 501's because the person concerned was very busy. In a few days hopefully it can be done. I no longer have the balanced cables so cant try them in my system but am hopeful in a few days it can really be checked out on a true reference system.
It may be the slight hardness we all heard is in the source gear but it was tried with 3 different DAC's and it was heard with all.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: bhobba on July 05, 2012, 04:52:40 PM
They are EXTREMELY transparent which is why I want to check them out with the best source gear I can get hold of. I was unable to check them against the Mac 501's because the person concerned was very busy. In a few days hopefully it can be done. I no longer have the balanced cables so cant try them in my system but am hopeful in a few days it can really be checked out on a true reference system.
It may be the slight hardness we all heard is in the source gear but it was tried with 3 different DAC's and it was heard with all.
I look forward to your thoughts. I ended up replacing my DAC, which I had been very happy with until the NCores showed up, it suddenly seemed a little too hard and strident. Then again, I've had tubes for so long that tendency may have been ameliorated, dunno but I ended up with one a little more analog sounding that I'm happy with for now (Lindemann 24/192). :)
mike
Seems the new nad dac is being called extremely transparent, colorless, etc. Would seem to be an ideal match with the ncore.....
Quote from: cab on July 06, 2012, 04:42:57 AM
Seems the new nad dac is being called extremely transparent, colorless, etc. Would seem to be an ideal match with the ncore.....
The new NAD DAC is good but my PDX is at another level - to my ears anyway. The NAD was one of the DAC's tried and it had a slight trace of hardness with the NCores. It still sounded awesome and the performance it achieves for the money is amazing.
Thanks
Bill
what is the cost difference?
Thanks for the reply Mike. Got it now. Ah yes the revealing componet that requires another change. Meaning the quality of source. Reminds me of my CAT preamp. That sucker revealed all causing another upgrade. Was not happy about making another change but when I did there was no turning back. Good is good.
Would like to compare them to the Arion HS500 some day. Anybody use the N-core with vinyl as the source ?
charles
Quote from: rollo on July 06, 2012, 08:22:01 AM
...
Anybody use the N-core with vinyl as the source ?
charles
Charles,
I'm using the NCores almost 100% with vinyl and couldn't be happier with the setup :thumb:
Tom
Quote from: cab on July 06, 2012, 06:32:55 AM
what is the cost difference?
My fully bybeed Level 2 PDX costs about $5K (compared to $1.5K for the NAD) depending on what you can source the bybees for so its hardly surprising it bests the NAD which I also own. The other DAC I own is a Playback Designs MPD-3. On PCM despite the fact it is more expensive than my PDX my PDX clobbers it. On DSD its a lot closer and investigation needs yo be done as to which is better. I need to get a new pair of decent cables to check that out since the PD needs a pre amp - you can't direct connect which is what I normally do. They are on order but the guy that hand builds them is a little busy with other stuff right now.
Thanks
Bill
Bill,
I was trying to follow your chain of events and not sure if I understood what was connected when...
Did all 3 DAC's go through the modwright when you were comparing? I'm not a big fan of modwright gear, I've never heard a piece I thought was really transparent.
If the PDX has variable outs and you can plug them into the 501's and Ncores, I'd be very interested in that comparison. :)
-C
Quote from: bhobba on July 05, 2012, 04:52:40 PM
Quote from: mgalusha on July 04, 2012, 08:44:46 PMOne thing that Bill mentioned that I have observed, if the source gear has any weaknesses, they will happily spit them out, I have very definitely had to look at the upstream bits.
They are EXTREMELY transparent which is why I want to check them out with the best source gear I can get hold of. I was unable to check them against the Mac 501's because the person concerned was very busy. In a few days hopefully it can be done. I no longer have the balanced cables so cant try them in my system but am hopeful in a few days it can really be checked out on a true reference system.
It may be the slight hardness we all heard is in the source gear but it was tried with 3 different DAC's and it was heard with all.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: bhobba on July 06, 2012, 03:46:43 PM
Quote from: cab on July 06, 2012, 06:32:55 AM
what is the cost difference?
My fully bybeed Level 2 PDX costs about $5K (compared to $1.5K for the NAD) depending on what you can source the bybees for so its hardly surprising it bests the NAD which I also own.
Bill
Yeah, it should be no surprise....Thanks.
Quote from: Carlman on July 08, 2012, 06:41:37 AM
I was trying to follow your chain of events and not sure if I understood what was connected when...Did all 3 DAC's go through the modwright when you were comparing? I'm not a big fan of modwright gear, I've never heard a piece I thought was really transparent. If the PDX has variable outs and you can plug them into the 501's and Ncores, I'd be very interested in that comparison. :)
The three DAC's I tried it on were my the PD MPD-3, NAD, and a WFS. The PD and NAD were done at my place direct connected using the volume control in the Audirvana Plus playback software for the PD. At Rob's place we tried the NAD and his WFS both via the Modwright and direct connected. IMHO the NAD was rather yucky through the Modright but very good direct connected with the only issue being a slight hardness - very very transparent. We tried the WFS both direct connected and via the Modwright. It sounded rather good via the Modright - none of the issues with the NAD were noted. When direct connected detail increased but again there was the slight hardness. However I owned a WFS for quite a while and its other issues valves tend to hide with that DAC were now evident - dryness, cold treble, and some sibilance. I preferred that DAC through the Modright.
The PDX will be tried direct connected using Audirvana via the QOL Completion stage to do the balanced conversion.
Personally I don't like Modwright stuff either.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: topround on July 01, 2012, 03:13:10 PM
Forgive my ignorance as chip amps are not my cup of tea, so I really have not been paying attention, but aren't the Ncores kits? And can these kits be built(implimented ) differently, with different results?
Just wondering.
mike
I asked the same question back on ac with no answer. It's a good question considering people are using different power supplies,chassis and assembling skills.
Quote from: Werd on July 11, 2012, 11:10:56 AM
Quote from: topround on July 01, 2012, 03:13:10 PM
Forgive my ignorance as chip amps are not my cup of tea, so I really have not been paying attention, but aren't the Ncores kits? And can these kits be built(implimented ) differently, with different results?
Just wondering.
mike
I asked the same question back on ac with no answer. It's a good question considering people are using different power supplies,chassis and assembling skills.
Yes, the NCore is a DIY-kit, but there is really minimal assembly needed. The Power Supply module is fully assembled, there is an umbilical between the Power Supply and Amplifier boards, it is supplied complete and just needs to be plugged in to each module. Parts needed are a case, a power cord, input connections (RCA, or Balanced), speaker connections of some sort. It's not a kit in the sense of the old Heath-Kits from back in the day, where you were suplied with bags full of resitors, caps, and transistors and had to solder it all to a board.
Quote from: Barry (NJ) on July 11, 2012, 11:22:32 AM
Quote from: Werd on July 11, 2012, 11:10:56 AM
Quote from: topround on July 01, 2012, 03:13:10 PM
Forgive my ignorance as chip amps are not my cup of tea, so I really have not been paying attention, but aren't the Ncores kits? And can these kits be built(implimented ) differently, with different results?
Just wondering.
mike
I asked the same question back on ac with no answer. It's a good question considering people are using different power supplies,chassis and assembling skills.
Yes, the NCore is a DIY-kit, but there is really minimal assembly needed. The Power Supply module is fully assembled, there is an umbilical between the Power Supply and Amplifier boards, it is supplied complete and just needs to be plugged in to each module. Parts needed are a case, a power cord, input connections (RCA, or Balanced), speaker connections of some sort. It's not a kit in the sense of the old Heath-Kits from back in the day, where you were suplied with bags full of resitors, caps, and transistors and had to solder it all to a board.
Gotcha thanks :thumb:
For those without any technical ability like myself.
Scott Nixon will build it for you.
He built my pair of mono-blocks and did a wonderful job.
I haven't had time to post pictures or take them and the photos he took and sent are in a weird format. Not that I would know how to post the photos anyway. :duh
If your thinking of ordering them Scott will build them for you . You would have to talk price with him as I purchased the amps and their power-supplies and then also purchased the Furutech Gold IEC inlets and their female gold chassis mount XLR's with some WBT speaker binding posts. The IEC by Furutech are not standard size so he had to do some trim work to the chassis to get them to fit so you might want to let him order the associated parts that work with the chassis he builds them in.
Here is his phone number: 336-884-7394 if interested.
Just thought somebody would like to know.
They do sound fantastic.
Why did I buy them? After all the hype thought Eastern Electric might be interested in the OEM 1200's :drool:
Has anyone had a head-to-head comparison with a Cherry Amp yet? No time to read through thousands of posts to find out.....
-Tommy O
Digital Amp Co
The original Cherry stereo amp and N-Core monoblocks were at at a meet at my house last June. There is some discussion in the NC group section. There was not a direct back and forth comparison on same set of speakers with same music track.
The Cherry sounds like it has exaggerated bass response. That compliments my speakers. It also compliments the horn speakers of the Cherry amp's owner.
The N-Core sounded "too hot" when used to amplify tweeters in an active biamp system with line array speaker. But it sounded excellent when used in same speaker as woofer amp later in the day, with 6C33 tubes on the tweeters.
On my speakers, 95dB 3 way rear horn loaded N-Core sounded better than NAD M2, which had poor synergy with my speakers. Although I heard the NAD on its owners Peak Consult speakers and the combination was sublime - best classD amplified system I have heard to date. The Cherry was the best match of those 3 classDs to my speakers due to the fat bottom and very smooth treble. But the NCores sounded good too, just not as robust in the bass as the Cherry, and my speakers appreciate the extra bottom.
Is the Cherry deliberately tilted up in the bass?
Quote from: ampdesigner333 on December 16, 2012, 03:34:24 PM
Has anyone had a head-to-head comparison with a Cherry Amp yet? No time to read through thousands of posts to find out.....
-Tommy O
Digital Amp Co
Nope. We could arrange that for you if you like. Our Club the Audiosydrome is up for a comparison demo.
charles
Quote from: rollo on December 19, 2012, 07:08:07 AMNope. We could arrange that for you if you like. Our Club the Audiosydrome is up for a comparison demo.
That would be an interesting one and I would love to hear the outcome.
Since this is the NCore thread I have to say the Ncore is way out of its depth compared to the Arions - to my ears anyway. The Ncore's are good for the money - but that's it - not the world beater some of the hype seemed to indicate. Then again to be fair, the Arions upgraded with Duelunds, are way more expensive. I think the Cherry will be a much better comparison.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: richidoo on December 16, 2012, 04:25:38 PMIs the Cherry deliberately tilted up in the bass?
Based on my experience with the Arions my suspicion is probably not. When I compared the Arions to the Mac 501's myself and others noticed a slight 'bloom' in the bass but after extended listening and chatting to some fellow audiophiles who also heard it the consensus was it simply had better bass grip - which is amazing considering the bass grip the Mac's have. This was verified when I heard the 250w non monoblock version ML got in - which is also very good and I will do a separate post about it - and I heard the same thing - so my suspicion is it a characteristic of the better quality digital. Didn't notice it on the Ncores though.
Thanks
Bill
Based on my listening and others', we suspect it is EQ'd a tad. ;)
I hope Tommy returns to participate in the threads he stirred.
Quote from: richidoo on December 19, 2012, 04:57:10 PMBased on my listening and others', we suspect it is EQ'd a tad. ;)
I hope Tommy returns to participate in the threads he stirred.
Yes - really looking forward to his comments.
Thanks
Bill
FWIW, an Ncore vs whatever comparison should be based on a higher quality build than the tour Ncore build. I heard the tour model on three systems, and as good as it sounded, I wasn't completely blown away.
I had a hand in a higher quality build, Paul/Occam's, which used a better chassis, better connectors and higher quality speaker/ac/input wiring. I had this build on my system for 5 days, and missed it after it was gone...didn't miss the tour amps after they were gone.
I heard the Merrill Audio model vs. the Occam model, and the Merrill Audio won that contest. Comparing a $6K+ commercial product to a DIY sub 2K$ product would not be fair unless you got the best(better) DIY build, or go up the scale to a commercial model like the Merrill Audio.
My 2 cents.
Not to be a pain but wouldn't a sub 2K DIY amp cost 6K if it were a commercial design?
We all know the business model in audio....right?
Quote from: topround on December 20, 2012, 02:54:29 AMNot to be a pain but wouldn't a sub 2K DIY amp cost 6K if it were a commercial design? We all know the business model in audio....right?
Good point.
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: topround on December 20, 2012, 02:54:29 AM
Not to be a pain but wouldn't a sub 2K DIY amp cost 6K if it were a commercial design?
We all know the business model in audio....right?
The DIY model NCore NC400 and the OEM NC1200 models are two different version. Just pointing out.
Now I am being a pain, but why do such simple designs as chip amps cost so much?
Quote from: topround on December 20, 2012, 06:23:44 PM
Now I am being a pain, but why do such simple designs as chip amps cost so much?
I don't think any amp design is more simple than a class A triode, and look at the price of some of those ;)
Quote from: Barry (NJ) on December 21, 2012, 05:06:09 AM
Quote from: topround on December 20, 2012, 06:23:44 PM
Now I am being a pain, but why do such simple designs as chip amps cost so much?
I don't think any amp design is more simple than a class A triode, and look at the price of some of those ;)
Simple, yes! Cheap, no way...
You need to look at the cost of the iron with the heavy power supply transformers, output transformers, choke transformers, caps, all point to point wiring involved, cost of good tubes... no cheap chips or circuit boards utilized... definitely "old school", but real good...
Cheers,
Pete
Yeah! ......what he said
My comment was only meant to address the validity of DAC amps comparison to a comparable commercial product, not some variable DIY end-product built with varying techniques and accessories.
Don't really see the value in comparing his (DAC) amp with a DIY amp.
Martin you made a valid point, don't apologize
Yes different implementation will yield different results and it seems Merrill has done a very good implementation for that design. Kudos to him.
Or maybe the NC 1200 is better than the NC 400
perhaps Paul should try the NC1200, or is the nc 1200 not available as a kit?
Quote from: richidoo on December 16, 2012, 04:25:38 PM
The original Cherry stereo amp and N-Core monoblocks were at at a meet at my house last June. There is some discussion in the NC group section. There was not a direct back and forth comparison on same set of speakers with same music track.
The Cherry sounds like it has exaggerated bass response. That compliments my speakers. It also compliments the horn speakers of the Cherry amp's owner.
The N-Core sounded "too hot" when used to amplify tweeters in an active biamp system with line array speaker. But it sounded excellent when used in same speaker as woofer amp later in the day, with 6C33 tubes on the tweeters.
On my speakers, 95dB 3 way rear horn loaded N-Core sounded better than NAD M2, which had poor synergy with my speakers. Although I heard the NAD on its owners Peak Consult speakers and the combination was sublime - best classD amplified system I have heard to date. The Cherry was the best match of those 3 classDs to my speakers due to the fat bottom and very smooth treble. But the NCores sounded good too, just not as robust in the bass as the Cherry, and my speakers appreciate the extra bottom.
Is the Cherry deliberately tilted up in the bass?
The Cherry is ruler flat down to 1Hz, so no, it's not tilted up in the bass.....
Thanks Tommy. It definitely has bass authority! I was sad to see that amp go home after a couple nights here.
Quote from: topround on December 20, 2012, 06:23:44 PM
Now I am being a pain, but why do such simple designs as chip amps cost so much?
Same reason Hot Dogs and Ham cost so much. :roll:
charles
Distributer markup? :o
I guess price does not matter,
Just take a listen to the $50K Mark Levinson chip amps :shock:
Quote from: topround on December 26, 2012, 08:43:42 AM
Distributor markup? :o
No. A manufacture sets a retail price based on, cost, advertising and overhead.
It used to be 5 times cost for most products. However times have changed and the ratio as well.
With specialty items like audio products it depends on the size of the manf. Small companies cannot buy at volume so parts and the like are more expensive for them. Limited sales also play a role. Then there are custom designs.
If a distributor is involved he gets 10 to 20% dealer gets 40%. Yes it is marked up like any other business.
Direct sales eliminate the distributor and dealer. So less expensive products. It appears lately the direct sales has caught up to brick and mortar prices.
The premise for our business model is to discount everything we sell and provide a free home demo at our cost. Everyone is a winner. Business is business however maybe we can offer another alternative. Bring it to ya and save ya money.
charles
Quote from: topround on December 26, 2012, 08:47:40 AM
I guess price does not matter,
Just take a listen to the $50K Mark Levinson chip amps :shock:
Mike price does mater. The consumer will decide what is right for him or her.
A $53K amp may or may not be worth the price but not to everyone. For me personally if the amp bettered what I had and could afford such it would be mine.
We have learned by now that price does not offer better sound.Throwing money at a system usually ends up going laterally with little or no gain. The N-Cores have value as DIY projects. A neutral design that will benefit many systems and tastes.
For the price it has an advantage. Even if one spends under $2000 for the build money wise is ahead of the Cherry, Arion, Merrill and Levinson.
Sonic attributes in direct comparison in ones system is the only way to determine the differences. Then bang for the buck enters the picture. Bang for buck has got to go to the N-Cores. Sonics another story.
charles
The only high end audio amplifier that I know of which uses an integrated circuit is Red Wine Audio, and their chip is made by Tripath, now gone. Every other class D amp I know of uses a discreet amplifier circuit, or at least discreet output transistors. There is no significant cost saving between amplifier topologies. Power supply, parts quality, box, accessories are what cost. With class D amps, what you save with smaller heat sink you add with output filter and RF screening.
Quote from: rollo on December 26, 2012, 09:10:09 AMNo. A manufacture sets a retail price based on, cost, advertising and overhead.
It used to be 5 times cost for most products. However times have changed and the ratio as well.
With specialty items like audio products it depends on the size of the manf. Small companies cannot buy at volume so parts and the like are more expensive for them. Limited sales also play a role. Then there are custom designs.
If a distributor is involved he gets 10 to 20% dealer gets 40%. Yes it is marked up like any other business.
Direct sales eliminate the distributor and dealer. So less expensive products. It appears lately the direct sales has caught up to brick and mortar prices.
The premise for our business model is to discount everything we sell and provide a free home demo at our cost. Everyone is a winner. Business is business however maybe we can offer another alternative. Bring it to ya and save ya money.
Oh dear aren't that the truth. Its always wise to look at what the manufacturer of what you are getting actually spends their money on. Magico for example uses nine times their cost but spends a fortune on marketing. Smaller manufacturers I know use a twice the price model but spend virtually nothing on marketing and sell direct - but of course you don't know about them - which is why you need forums like this.
Its the reason (and this is just an example) the Arions blow the much much more expensive Mac 501's out of the water - its not that the Mac's are poor amps or anything like that - its simply the markups a product like that has compared to a hand built amp sold direct.
Thanks
Bill
I believe one also has to look at resale value as well.
The smaller brands have to offer more value because you lose so much if you want to sell it.
I know people who build gear who want to sell their gear for big money, because it sounds great, and it does.
But for the end user, the buyer, there are more lines in the equation that need to be addressed.
A Picasso may sell for millions of dollars today, but not when he first started out putting paint to canvas.
Of course if you don't care about resale value then it is a different matter. But if you spent 5K for a piece to only resell it for 1/10 of cost, it would upset you. Look at list price for high end cables over resale prices, cables get killed in the used market. Why buy new? People are not even embarrased to low ball expensive cables!
Value is something that is earned over time, people may poo poo Audio Research or Conrad Johnson gear, but they do retain their value, whether you may want to own any of their gear is up to you, but in the end you will always be able to sell it, and move on with out getting too hurt.
Of course people will always say it sounds great why would I ever sell it, and when you sell it and lose a large percentage of your money, you will think differently.
I have always believed that a strong resale value means it is a good product
As most of us know, once a piece is about 3 years old, or if it has been replaced by the next newest and greatest model, it's used resale is a little over half it's original retail. That about jives with the value of a brand new piece at dealer discount or industry insider accommodation.
You can get great stuff on the used market at half price if you are not the type that just has to have it new, or own something that has just been reviewed in a mag. And usually, if you don;t like it, you can resell it at little to no loss, and maybe a gain. In a normal market, that is. These days it is truly a buyers market because there are so few of them.
DIY pieces or heavily modded pieces or something that is niche and little known has to be a purchase based on love, with no resale consideration.
As to cost, I guess it just depends on whether you budget for the possibility of it not working out or not.
If the manufacturer is small with no dealer network, they have to offer a demo or 60-day trial or something if they intend to stay in business... Whatever the cost, the resale will be half or less.
How many (giant killer) brands have come and gone over the past 10 years? I remember their faces but not their names. ;)
In any case, if it sounds good to most people, and the manufacturer has a good business model, it'll probably do OK and be around a while. Not always but usually.
I accept that I'm at the fringe of consumer electronics and all the risks that go with that. And I'm really satisfied with how my system sounds. I've spent some money and consider the path to get there all part of the hobby... kind of like paying for education. I don't consider all the money I've spent over the years part of my current system's cost.... but that's me.
It has been awhile since we discussed the N-cores. There are commercial offerings at $12,000 and $14,000, Merrill and Mola Mola.
They use the OEM boards. Has anyone directly compared them to an N-Core DIY amp? Big price difference.
charles
Ive read that the OEM board is better than the DIY version, but cant confirm it. Have you had a chance to hear any of them yet Rollo?
Quote from: machinehead on June 24, 2013, 08:23:31 AM
Ive read that the OEM board is better than the DIY version, but cant confirm it. Have you had a chance to hear any of them yet Rollo?
Not yet. No one I know has them in NY. Just curious because of all the hype. Would love to compare to the Arions as a learning experience.
charles
QuoteHas anyone directly compared them to an N-Core DIY amp?
Yes... Merrill brought over his Veritas Monoblocks and compared them to Paul/Occam NC400. All present liked the Veritas over the NC400. A few degrees of refinement (plus warmer tonality) over the DIY offering.
There are a number of comparisons in this thread...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106170.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106170.0)
And right here too...
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=4182.0 (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=4182.0)
Thanks guys. Still would like to hear one in my system. Some day.
charles
Quote from: rollo on June 29, 2013, 07:59:28 AM
Thanks guys. Still would like to hear one in my system. Some day.
charles
The offer was made to you and duly rejected.
The Arions and VERITAS were compared. Present was Mike K - builder of the Arions. As were a few more. Results were conclusive. Do check with Mike K.
Quote from: ua100k on September 24, 2013, 05:46:32 AM
Quote from: rollo on June 29, 2013, 07:59:28 AM
Thanks guys. Still would like to hear one in my system. Some day.
charles
The offer was made to you and duly rejected.
The Arions and VERITAS were compared. Present was Mike K - builder of the Arions. As were a few more. Results were conclusive. Do check with Mike K.
It appears someone is in attack mode. Finally heard them on extremely revealing speakers however not my system which matters the most to me.
Accurate, detailed, dynamic however overall no meat on the bone so to speak. The toe was not tapping.
BTW bringing Mike K. into this is just not cool. Why would you put a competing manf. on the spot ?
All I ever wanted to find out is how a hybrid class"D" amp compared to a non hybrid. It is NOT a competition from my end.
charles
Charles, I'm not taking sides, and we all know which product you sell, but who is attacking what? A neutral party made a suggestion, and you turn their SN into a poke at them, and discredit their suggestion as a poor product...
Quote from: rollo on September 20, 2013, 06:42:30 AM
Thanks we can bring amps as well. Putzasourus, Merrills no thank you, not into thin , dry and lean and over detailed. BTW the GTA are very efficient and can be driver very nicely with 18W/ch. That's why I thought the Lamp Amps would work really well. Did not want to rain on Lamp, however amps can be brought.
Either 18WSET or 500W hybrid class "D", oh my !! Thanks again Shadowlight, will coordinate with Greg. We will here them right this time, especially with Lamp front end, can't wait.
charles
I think you really have to try the amps in multiple systems... Those Merrils sounded phenomenal with the Dutch megabuck uber sleek speaker majigs. Im not sure you can make a definitive conclusion
Barry I think you need to reread my comments and know the facts.
I never called the amps a poor product. The GTA speakers would be driven by Lamp amps if possible. Or the Ming Da intergrated. Never dis I ask to bring any amps.
This is Lamp day at Shadowlights not not anything else. As far as messing with Putz I gave my opinion as to the amps with GTA speakers.
Before Capitol Audiofest we were considering using the Merrills in lieu of another. Never got the chance to demo in my home. We were asked to go to Merrills home to hear them with the GTA speakers. We needed to hear them with the associated gear we were using. So the offer rejected. We wanted the best sound we could offer at the show so the interest. Just did not work out. We would have used the Merrills no problem if they suited our system. Just never got the opportunity.
Personally was interested in hearing them with my Pipedreams as well. Was very interested to compare with my amps and maybe buy them. Even recommended the Merrills to my customer over what I sell to demo with his ribbon speakers.
After finally hearing them myself in two systems my opinion was as I stated. Sorry if anyone was offended but my opinion still stands until heard in my system.
charles
Quote from: rollo on September 26, 2013, 08:41:37 AM
Barry I think you need to reread my comments and know the facts.
I never called the amps a poor product. The GTA speakers would be driven by Lamp amps if possible. Or the Ming Da intergrated. Never dis I ask to bring any amps.
This is Lamp day at Shadowlights not not anything else. As far as messing with Putz I gave my opinion as to the amps with GTA speakers.
Before Capitol Audiofest we were considering using the Merrills in lieu of another. Never got the chance to demo in my home. We were asked to go to Merrills home to hear them with the GTA speakers. We needed to hear them with the associated gear we were using. So the offer rejected. We wanted the best sound we could offer at the show so the interest. Just did not work out. We would have used the Merrills no problem if they suited our system. Just never got the opportunity.
1. Offer was accepted by Greg of GTA who was here with his speakers and we heard combination on 5/1/2013.
2. You requested rep'ing my amps at the VPI meeting 3/23/2013.
Hence my request to come over to my place. Still waiting.
Your request to rep the amps was independent of CAF and GTA.
Quote from: rollo on September 26, 2013, 08:41:37 AM
Personally was interested in hearing them with my Pipedreams as well. Was very interested to compare with my amps and maybe buy them.
Even recommended the Merrills to my customer over what I sell to demo with his ribbon speakers.
1. The customer/audiophile was referred/recommended by Pete from TWL. Email from Pete with the introduction - 04/01/2013.
2. Per your emails, sent to you yesterday as a refresher, you intervened and differed the meeting with the customer/audiophile and me.
See Emails from you dated 4/7/2013 to 4/22/2013. Still waiting for you to set that up. For the record, I am more interested in listening to the customers system (Lamm amps). This was stated to the customer/audiophile also.
Quote from: rollo on September 26, 2013, 08:41:37 AM
After finally hearing them myself in two systems my opinion was as I stated. Sorry if anyone was offended but my opinion still stands until heard in my system.
charles
Ball is in your court. They were heard on David Nemzers Pipedreams, Ross Wagner's Pipedreams.
I would like to put this to rest and out of the forums. Please contact me directly anytime.
Perhaps some mellowing with tequila shots might move the focus back to music and collectively burn the brain cells that contain these memories. :D :lol: 8)
Quote from: machinehead on September 25, 2013, 06:43:23 AM
I think you really have to try the amps in multiple systems... Those Merrils sounded phenomenal with the Dutch megabuck uber sleek speaker majigs. Im not sure you can make a definitive conclusion
ABSOLUTELY!!! Have we forgot about synergy between components???
Does one size fit all??? I think not... especially with amplifiers...
To discuss this to "ad nauseum" is a waste of time... "ad absurdum"
Quote from: Triode Pete on September 26, 2013, 10:12:38 AM
ABSOLUTELY!!! Have we forgot about synergy between components???
Does one size fit all??? I think not... especially with amplifiers...
To discuss this to "ad nauseum" is a waste of time... "ad absurdum"
Agreedum :duh
Quote from: Triode Pete on September 26, 2013, 10:12:38 AM
Quote from: machinehead on September 25, 2013, 06:43:23 AM
I think you really have to try the amps in multiple systems... Those Merrils sounded phenomenal with the Dutch megabuck uber sleek speaker majigs. Im not sure you can make a definitive conclusion
ABSOLUTELY!!! Have we forgot about synergy between components???
Does one size fit all??? I think not... especially with amplifiers...
To discuss this to "ad nauseum" is a waste of time... "ad absurdum"
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: ua100k on September 26, 2013, 09:36:54 AM
Quote from: rollo on September 26, 2013, 08:41:37 AM
Barry I think you need to reread my comments and know the facts.
I never called the amps a poor product. The GTA speakers would be driven by Lamp amps if possible. Or the Ming Da intergrated. Never dis I ask to bring any amps.
This is Lamp day at Shadowlights not not anything else. As far as messing with Putz I gave my opinion as to the amps with GTA speakers.
Before Capitol Audiofest we were considering using the Merrills in lieu of another. Never got the chance to demo in my home. We were asked to go to Merrills home to hear them with the GTA speakers. We needed to hear them with the associated gear we were using. So the offer rejected. We wanted the best sound we could offer at the show so the interest. Just did not work out. We would have used the Merrills no problem if they suited our system. Just never got the opportunity.
1. Offer was accepted by Greg of GTA who was here with his speakers and we heard combination on 5/1/2013.
2. You requested rep'ing my amps at the VPI meeting 3/23/2013.
Hence my request to come over to my place. Still waiting.
Your request to rep the amps was independent of CAF and GTA.
Quote from: rollo on September 26, 2013, 08:41:37 AM
Personally was interested in hearing them with my Pipedreams as well. Was very interested to compare with my amps and maybe buy them.
Even recommended the Merrills to my customer over what I sell to demo with his ribbon speakers.
1. The customer/audiophile was referred/recommended by Pete from TWL. Email from Pete with the introduction - 04/01/2013.
2. Per your emails, sent to you yesterday as a refresher, you intervened and differed the meeting with the customer/audiophile and me.
See Emails from you dated 4/7/2013 to 4/22/2013. Still waiting for you to set that up. For the record, I am more interested in listening to the customers system (Lamm amps). This was stated to the customer/audiophile also.
Quote from: rollo on September 26, 2013, 08:41:37 AM
After finally hearing them myself in two systems my opinion was as I stated. Sorry if anyone was offended but my opinion still stands until heard in my system.
charles
Ball is in your court. They were heard on David Nemzers Pipedreams, Ross Wagner's Pipedreams.
I would like to put this to rest and out of the forums. Please contact me directly anytime.
Perhaps some mellowing with tequila shots might move the focus back to music and collectively burn the brain cells that contain these memories. :D :lol: 8)
Yes agreed put this to rest. Just some corrections to your post. I asked TWL to call you since he does business with you. Thought that would expedite the demo.
Yes I was interested in representing your amps. Thought it would good to rep two versions of class "D" as one size does not fit all.
There is more to this than meets the eye. Which is not for a public forum. Later.
charles