You know what grinds my gears?

[GT Audio Works]

I have to disagree with the bagging part of this conversation. What I mean by that is I don't feel its a way to upsell.
I have always found that being honest with customers about their system is the best way to keep customers coming back. Working WITH other manufacturers creates a path for consumers to get the best out of their system.
There have been many times when a customer has asked me if one of my products would be a good match in their system and there have been times when I would have to honestly tell them no. In this case, I would recommend another amplifier, preamp or whatever component(s) they were inquiring about. This startles people at first but then they come to realize there are still people in this industry that still have a passion for what they do.
There have also been several occasions when asked if "these components will work together" when I had to simply say......."I really don't know enough abut product X to give an honest opinion".

When you are honest with your customers and pass on a sale because you know its not right for them, they almost always return to you later when they DO have a need for one of your products.

Lying to a consumer just to move a product will come back to bite you in the ass. You do it enough times and consumers begin to not trust you.

I know my products don't fit the needs of everyone. No manufacturer has the one-size-fits-all product. I think manufacturers should work together to help consumers put together a system with the proper synergy to make beautiful music and keep them happy for years to come.

Highly agree.
No sense in lying, bites you in the ass every time.

[BobM]

I have no problem with expensive gear. There has always been expensive gear and boutique names. But there used to be more affordable products that had trickle down technology so us humans could also get a taste of the good life.

But these days the magazines are making it sound normal to buy a $20,000 amplifier. And reviews of $5,000 CD players or phono cartridges say it is good "for the price". Everyone wants an up-sell win. Manufacturers are more than happy to make 5 sales at $100,000 rather than selling 500 units at $1000.

We all lose that way unfortunately because even 5 years later, when the used market is discounting that great piece of gear at half price or less, it is still out of our reach.

[_Scotty_]

Given that there are far fewer uber priced pieces gear manufactured and sold, there will also way less of these things in the used marketplace. I sure that there will more more of them traded in at the dealer for a more expensive new model than will be sold at a potentially higher loss on Agon.
Scotty

[Werd]

I am not complaining how the economic system works, I was just trying to explain why it is the way it is.
This all started with why a reference to a 4100 dollar power cord and sorted of started a complaining about lots of high prices for audio gear.

Socialist me?....no  
Republican.....no
Democrat....no

Like an AA meeting it is good to talk about these things get them out in the open.
Socratic method works every time. Debate, debate, debate, from the debate will come the truth..


and we are page 9!   Woo Hoo

Lets start something new to bitch about, how about we all bitch about how much of a trouble maker I am, and yes I too wear my ban from audio circle as a badge of honor.

Remember you only get banned from audiocircle if you tell the truth or lie.
or piss off one of the fan boys of their manufacturers that pay to be on the site. No negative press will be tolerated from their advertisers.
and if everything has purpose, then the purpose of audiocircle is to make money. But enough of that nonsense....dude where'd I park my Bentley?

9 pages!!!!!!!!!

How about a technocrat, you a technocrat? A type of government where the profeession or the leaders in science run the different branches of government. They don't let idiots vote. There are some governments in Asia run like this. I think Taiwan is one

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

[Werd]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

Over on AC there are people (years we are talking) that are using  speakers disproportionate to their remaining gear. There is no coming to the realization of it and they are happy to tell everyone. That is because they READ it daily about the negativity of other gear. None of them listen to their own gear. Largely because they have a pile of shit that sounds like garbage. But they have no problem online bagging - out about the non - neccessity (lack of quality) of audio gear. This all stems from the manufacturers (who crap on other gear) only to get a larger piece of the buyers purchasing budget.  

Your right I may have bagged , politely or not it was not my intention.
It was only in the context of the $4200 power cable discussion.
To express my belief that people are too happy to throw money at a problem in their system ie. an expensive power cable to remedy an issue they should be looking elsewhere to fix. Unfortunately there are plenty of folks out there that are glad to feed on their fears.

Of course no matter how I say it, as a competing manufacturer, it may be construed as bagging.
Maybe that issue is a speaker that no matter how much high end gear you put behind it cant resolve the signal the system provides to the fullest. So no matter how great those power cables or interconnects are... the speakers lack of coherency in the transition from bass to lower mid range is the result. I am a firm believer the speaker will yield the biggest change in any system.

I am not trying to blow my own horn,  but I will not deny that I have had more than one customer use a highly regarded name brand speaker that when replaced with mine, we had to go back and start over with everything upstream, removing all the tweaks and mods and such, because the system had wavered so far off course trying to please the old speaker. Then his face lights up with the knowledge he is hearing things like never before. I am not saying these tweaks will not give an overall improvement, just if the speaker cant do it with the basics, it does not have much chance making things better with tweaks.

Greg

I didn't see it as manipulation so I am not really pointing it at you. I actually don't think Salk and AvA are the worst, there is one worse. That is Harman. They tried to roll over Hi-Res anything. They used any method possible. BAS, publications, forums to sway the reading public. The reason they do it is their Big Business model. They build audio by the thousands. They will batch order 1000 receivers at a time or CD players. No doubt that campaign against Hi-Res was to unload their non Hi Res CD player inventory first, or their non Hi -Res Receiver inventory first. So they undergo a campaign to squash any movement they are not invested in. Screw the hobby it's about money only.

[_Scotty_]

Werd, you lost me on the last one. What is a Hi-Rez Receiver and a Hi-Rez CD player?
Scotty

[Werd]

Werd, you lost me on the last one. What is a Hi-Rez Receiver and a Hi-Rez CD player?
Scotty

Receivers that can play 24 bit music files. My Yamha does through it's USB into the Yamaha Receiver internal dac. I didn't say Hi Res CD player but non Hi-Res CD player. Or a just a redbook CD player.

[tmazz]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

I disagree completely. Greg did not call out a specific manufacturer nor model. He simply stated an opinion that in his system he has found that he likes the stock PCs better and gave a reason why in sonic terms. That is not talking down about anyone's products that is making a a statement of his personal experience with his own system. Just because he happens to be a manufacturer that doesn't mean that he cannot have an opinion as an audiophile.

[GT Audio Works]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

I disagree completely. Greg did not call out a specific manufacturer nor model. He simply stated an opinion that in his system he has found that he likes the stock PCs better and gave a reason why in sonic terms. That is not talking down about anyone's products that is making a a statement of his personal experience with his own system. Just because he happens to be a manufacturer that doesn't mean that he cannot have an opinion as an audiophile.

This is the danger a manufacturer faces when he speaks his mind. The assumption by others that he is doing it to gain favor or put someone else down in some way. This reasoning by a potential customer is understandable, when a possible sale is on the line.
Consider a rear wheel drive car manufacturer addressing a possible customers question with a front wheel drive cars.
The customer is considering FWD but asks the manuf. what he thinks. The manuf. may be knowledgeable and a driving enthusiast and reply I don't like them and give good reasons why. Like they torque steer and understeer in corners. all true.
But the customer may think, is he being honest or just trying to sell me one of his RWD cars ?
Should the manuf. just shut up and agree FWD is good ?? As he well knows there are plenty of FWD racing series competitions.
Its just the manufs opinion.  Is too much info being honest hurting his chances of a sale ?
You may notice some manufacturers will walk a very carefully worded line, as not to give an impression that can be interpreted in a negative manner or come back to bite them. "Neutered conversation"
I tend to say what I think, much to the dismay of my wife who thinks I should not "say too much".
That's what got me in trouble on AC speaking my mind.
As they say "opinions are like A holes...everyones got one and most of them stink !!
Greg

[machinehead]

If anything... this had been the best topic in a while on this site.

Ind I have yet to add anything meaningful to this discussion, except this word
butts.
ty
oh and butts synergy.

[Werd]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

I disagree completely. Greg did not call out a specific manufacturer nor model. He simply stated an opinion that in his system he has found that he likes the stock PCs better and gave a reason why in sonic terms. That is not talking down about anyone's products that is making a a statement of his personal experience with his own system. Just because he happens to be a manufacturer that doesn't mean that he cannot have an opinion as an audiophile.

Calling out a specific manufacturer is not being bias to a component type. it is when they make sweeping negative remarks about a particular device like cables void of any manufacturer. 

[rollo]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

Over on AC there are people (years we are talking) that are using  speakers disproportionate to their remaining gear. There is no coming to the realization of it and they are happy to tell everyone. That is because they READ it daily about the negativity of other gear. None of them listen to their own gear. Largely because they have a pile of shit that sounds like garbage. But they have no problem online bagging - out about the non - necessity (lack of quality) of audio gear. This all stems from the manufacturers (who crap on other gear) only to get a larger piece of the buyers purchasing budget.  

Your right I may have bagged , politely or not it was not my intention.
It was only in the context of the $4200 power cable discussion.
To express my belief that people are too happy to throw money at a problem in their system ie. an expensive power cable to remedy an issue they should be looking elsewhere to fix. Unfortunately there are plenty of folks out there that are glad to feed on their fears.

Of course no matter how I say it, as a competing manufacturer, it may be construed as bagging.
Maybe that issue is a speaker that no matter how much high end gear you put behind it cant resolve the signal the system provides to the fullest. So no matter how great those power cables or interconnects are... the speakers lack of coherency in the transition from bass to lower mid range is the result. I am a firm believer the speaker will yield the biggest change in any system.

I am not trying to blow my own horn,  but I will not deny that I have had more than one customer use a highly regarded name brand speaker that when replaced with mine, we had to go back and start over with everything upstream, removing all the tweaks and mods and such, because the system had wavered so far off course trying to please the old speaker. Then his face lights up with the knowledge he is hearing things like never before. I am not saying these tweaks will not give an overall improvement, just if the speaker cant do it with the basics, it does not have much chance making things better with tweaks.

Greg

    When one puts a different speaker in an existing system that was tweaked to get a particular character of sound of course things need to be changed. Cables should be neutral in character allowing the components and speaker to show their true tonality.
   Now if we put in a revealing yet bright speaker then the existing synergy is gone. Need to change something upstream.
    Greg I remember the Bryston and your earlier design. Dynamics were outstanding but the tonality was bright and lean. So a tubed preamp was introduced which helped but did not cure the sound. Maybe a simple tube change or yes a colored [ rich ] IC or speaker cable might help out.
    A revealing speaker such as yours needs upstream components that compliment your speakers character. Just like any other system.
   Using cables and tweaks can change the sound good or bad. It would be grand if most were aware of what LCR was best suited for their amp/speaker combo. Meaning maybe a cable that has low capacitance or impedance may work best engineering wise.
   So once one has the system together tonality and harmonic wise that is the time to tweak. One can ruin the sound or better the sound. Not all tweaks are equal in all systems. Besides it is fun trying to get every bit one can.
   There is always give and take. It is a rare thing for a system where a tweak has an affect, good or bad.
    Greg your speaker has presence and dynamics which others lust for. The bested my Pipdreams in those areas but not tonality. In direct comparison yours were lean and bright but dynamic as hell. Does that mean that one is better than another, NO. It means different gear is required. Me personally besides the Arions a CJ amp would be just killer. Or Parasound or Plinius. IMO not a SS or no hybrid class "D" amp.
   This is not about your speaker it is about all speakers. any speaker needs the right amp to get its best sound. They do not amplify themselves.
   Consider this, someone holds a speaker shootout with Maggie 3.7, GTA, Martin Logan and BG radia. The winner by all accounts goes to one. Is it the speaker or the system synergy. IMO it is the synergy not the particular speaker.
   I have access to three cable looms of IC's and speaker cable. JPS SC series, TWL, Denon [ Japan] and Gronenberg. Each loom presents a different character. Only one is right for my system. Does that mean JPS is ripping me off if a less expensive cable has the synergy I am looking for ? No, it means they are not right in that system. Finding the right fit is laborious and a royal PITA. However worth every minute until one is found.
   How many times have we been impressed by a cable or tweak we bring it over to our buddies system with different results.
   So back to the original topic of what grinds your gears. So from my high horse I would say lack of knowledge and experience in putting systems together. The other is a customer that takes all my free advise and then goes to Audiogon to find it cheaper.
     Lastly it is my opinion that a system should be configured around a speaker. Actually the source and speaker are the two most important pieces to consider.
     Some interesting products to hear lately are Vinnie Rossi's integrated amp, Schitt DAC's [ all ], PSB mini monitors, OB Dipole subs, PIAudio Digibuss, Hals music server and last but not least Herbie's footers and decoulpers [ brilliant ].


charles

[rollo]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

I disagree completely. Greg did not call out a specific manufacturer nor model. He simply stated an opinion that in his system he has found that he likes the stock PCs better and gave a reason why in sonic terms. That is not talking down about anyone's products that is making a a statement of his personal experience with his own system. Just because he happens to be a manufacturer that doesn't mean that he cannot have an opinion as an audiophile.

This is the danger a manufacturer faces when he speaks his mind. The assumption by others that he is doing it to gain favor or put someone else down in some way. This reasoning by a potential customer is understandable, when a possible sale is on the line.
Consider a rear wheel drive car manufacturer addressing a possible customers question with a front wheel drive cars.
The customer is considering FWD but asks the manuf. what he thinks. The manuf. may be knowledgeable and a driving enthusiast and reply I don't like them and give good reasons why. Like they torque steer and understeer in corners. all true.
But the customer may think, is he being honest or just trying to sell me one of his RWD cars ?
Should the manuf. just shut up and agree FWD is good ?? As he well knows there are plenty of FWD racing series competitions.
Its just the manufs opinion.  Is too much info being honest hurting his chances of a sale ?
You may notice some manufacturers will walk a very carefully worded line, as not to give an impression that can be interpreted in a negative manner or come back to bite them. "Neutered conversation"
I tend to say what I think, much to the dismay of my wife who thinks I should not "say too much".
That's what got me in trouble on AC speaking my mind.
As they say "opinions are like A holes...everyones got one and most of them stink !!
Greg

  EXACTLY. Being in the business is a completely different experience for sure. First off most think we are making millions off them or ripping them off. Then if we mention a product of course we are pumping it up to make sales.  NOT.
    We no longer can be Audiophiles as we are perceived as having an agenda.
    For me personally my business was set up with products that first impressed me in my system as an Audiophile. The QOL being a prime example. Do we all remember the flack and insults I took here. I was really excited over that product and THEN decided to be a dealer. Same for the other products I sell. QOL is out of business after they screwed their dealers and went direct. To date I cannot remove the QOL from my system. Everything just collapses when removed.
    What I learned in ANY business is do not bite the hand that feeds you. meaning be nice about other manufactures products. If a Manf. does not like anothers product MUM should be the word.
    AVA learned an important lesson when they refused to offer IEC connector. Sales were way down. Not because of the sonics but their attitude towards power cords. They have an IEC now.
   A fine line we must walk which really sucks for us.

charles

[richidoo]

Calling out a specific manufacturer is not being bias to a component type. it is when they make sweeping negative remarks about a particular device like cables void of any manufacturer. 

That's just ignorance or deceit and easily filtered by any intelligent reader. Eventually we all saw Van Alstine admit that he heard a difference with loaned upgrade speaker wires, but he said he would never spend money for that. BAM!

[GT Audio Works]

Bagging out is a part of an audio manufacturers business model. You just politely did it, bagging out on powerpower cables.  .

Over on AC there are people (years we are talking) that are using  speakers disproportionate to their remaining gear. There is no coming to the realization of it and they are happy to tell everyone. That is because they READ it daily about the negativity of other gear. None of them listen to their own gear. Largely because they have a pile of shit that sounds like garbage. But they have no problem online bagging - out about the non - necessity (lack of quality) of audio gear. This all stems from the manufacturers (who crap on other gear) only to get a larger piece of the buyers purchasing budget.  

Your right I may have bagged , politely or not it was not my intention.
It was only in the context of the $4200 power cable discussion.
To express my belief that people are too happy to throw money at a problem in their system ie. an expensive power cable to remedy an issue they should be looking elsewhere to fix. Unfortunately there are plenty of folks out there that are glad to feed on their fears.

Of course no matter how I say it, as a competing manufacturer, it may be construed as bagging.
Maybe that issue is a speaker that no matter how much high end gear you put behind it cant resolve the signal the system provides to the fullest. So no matter how great those power cables or interconnects are... the speakers lack of coherency in the transition from bass to lower mid range is the result. I am a firm believer the speaker will yield the biggest change in any system.

I am not trying to blow my own horn,  but I will not deny that I have had more than one customer use a highly regarded name brand speaker that when replaced with mine, we had to go back and start over with everything upstream, removing all the tweaks and mods and such, because the system had wavered so far off course trying to please the old speaker. Then his face lights up with the knowledge he is hearing things like never before. I am not saying these tweaks will not give an overall improvement, just if the speaker cant do it with the basics, it does not have much chance making things better with tweaks.

Greg

    When one puts a different speaker in an existing system that was tweaked to get a particular character of sound of course things need to be changed. Cables should be neutral in character allowing the components and speaker to show their true tonality.
   Now if we put in a revealing yet bright speaker then the existing synergy is gone. Need to change something upstream.
    Greg I remember the Bryston and your earlier design. Dynamics were outstanding but the tonality was bright and lean. So a tubed preamp was introduced which helped but did not cure the sound. Maybe a simple tube change or yes a colored [ rich ] IC or speaker cable might help out.
    A revealing speaker such as yours needs upstream components that compliment your speakers character. Just like any other system.
   Using cables and tweaks can change the sound good or bad. It would be grand if most were aware of what LCR was best suited for their amp/speaker combo. Meaning maybe a cable that has low capacitance or impedance may work best engineering wise.
   So once one has the system together tonality and harmonic wise that is the time to tweak. One can ruin the sound or better the sound. Not all tweaks are equal in all systems. Besides it is fun trying to get every bit one can.
   There is always give and take. It is a rare thing for a system where a tweak has an affect, good or bad.
    Greg your speaker has presence and dynamics which others lust for. The bested my Pipdreams in those areas but not tonality. In direct comparison yours were lean and bright but dynamic as hell. Does that mean that one is better than another, NO. It means different gear is required. Me personally besides the Arions a CJ amp would be just killer. Or Parasound or Plinius. IMO not a SS or no hybrid class "D" amp.
   This is not about your speaker it is about all speakers. any speaker needs the right amp to get its best sound. They do not amplify themselves.
   Consider this, someone holds a speaker shootout with Maggie 3.7, GTA, Martin Logan and BG radia. The winner by all accounts goes to one. Is it the speaker or the system synergy. IMO it is the synergy not the particular speaker.
   I have access to three cable looms of IC's and speaker cable. JPS SC series, TWL, Denon [ Japan] and Gronenberg. Each loom presents a different character. Only one is right for my system. Does that mean JPS is ripping me off if a less expensive cable has the synergy I am looking for ? No, it means they are not right in that system. Finding the right fit is laborious and a royal PITA. However worth every minute until one is found.
   How many times have we been impressed by a cable or tweak we bring it over to our buddies system with different results.
   So back to the original topic of what grinds your gears. So from my high horse I would say lack of knowledge and experience in putting systems together. The other is a customer that takes all my free advise and then goes to Audiogon to find it cheaper.
     Lastly it is my opinion that a system should be configured around a speaker. Actually the source and speaker are the two most important pieces to consider.
     Some interesting products to hear lately are Vinnie Rossi's integrated amp, Schitt DAC's [ all ], PSB mini monitors, OB Dipole subs, PIAudio Digibuss, Hals music server and last but not least Herbie's footers and decoulpers [ brilliant ].


charles

I agree on all points Charles. My 15 year old Bryston 4B was a workhorse I used for a long time. I got to a point of speaker development that I could go no further with the 4b. Unfortunately my wallet said I needed to keep it.
Hearing my speakers on your system was an enigma to me. I heard so much more smoothness and detail than my system, on particular tracks I heard wonderful trailing off of room reverb,and bloom of voice  I credited to your well set up highly resolving system. But  to me the lower mids and upper bass was lacking giving rise to the brightness we heard, of course this was not heard with your Pipes in the chain. When I got home and listened to my system, I  reveled in the lower spectrum heft that gave the speaker the warmth it lacked at your place, but the magic and smoothness was gone. I knew I had to find a new reference amp and source. I kept my PrimaLuna preamp assuming it was not the cause of my dismay. And that was the case.

I made another change in the design scrapping the bass amps you heard for amps costing 4 X the price. I immediately heard a increase in smoothness of sound even with the Bryston. I lay the blame at the feet of the previous bass amps, they were passing grunge even though they crossed over at 100hz the grit that was riding along contaminating the music was evident. The current Hypex units are silent, they do their job cleanly  and effectively without influencing any other part of the spectrum.

The last part of the puzzle was fate....A potential customer came to my home to demo my speakers. He brought these unassuming SS monos, so small and light I assumed they were class D. They were class AB. We listened to my Bryston and then the  Nuprime ST10, which bested the Bryston in just about every way. Sorry Bryston fans, my opinion. So I am thinking its cant get much better. Even though Robert liked what he heard but felt there was more to offer and we hooked up his Paradox amps. Like manna from heaven, the forces of nature aligned, it was all there, resolution, smoothness transparency, harmonic bloom, bass, slam, dynamic contrast...you get the picture.
As luck would have it Robert also brought a CD player modded by Paradox, in an instant it killed my Bryston BCD1. By the time we were done we had replaced cables, interconnects too and man o man I didn't want to let this guy out of my home with this gear.
It seems Robert had more Paradox gear at home and was willing to make a trade. So we settled on a worth of the gear and I built him a pair of speakers with his gear as partial payment.

Since then I have been very happy with my system.
I doubt I will change it anytime soon, I would rather fiddle with speakers than gear.

BTW...
Terence Robinson of Paradox is like a lot of small audio companies, talented, genuinely nice guy and like so many...never heard of by mainstream audiophiles. too bad.

Greg